Reuters: Lebanese TV says Israeli aircraft shot down

[Cooley Hurd]

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=newsOne&storyID=2006-07-17T112759Z_01_L17711494_RTRUKOC_0_US-MIDEAST-LEBANON-AIRCRAFT.xml

BEIRUT (Reuters) - Lebanese television stations said on Monday that an Israeli aircraft had been shot down over Lebanon and showed footage of burning debris falling from the sky. It was not immediately possible to confirm the report.

(Thanks for the link, cal04! :hi:)

Initial reports:

CNN Breaking News: Lebanese television says an Israeli plane has been shot down and the network is showing images of falling debris, news agencies report. CNN working to confirm.

(Banner from http://cnn.com )

A mention of this from this story from MSNBC.com:

<snip>
Meantime, Lebanese television stations reported an Israeli aircraft had been shot down over Lebanon and showed footage of burning debris falling from the sky. However, an Israeli security source denied the report to Reuters. "There was no such thing," the source said.
<snip>

[C_U_L8R]

1. and troops crossing the border??

mentioned on air

[Cooley Hurd]

3. As per MSNBC.com, troops cross border into southern Lebanon...

[rooboy]

2. CNN Int'l says it is being reported by Arab networks. n/t

[Cooley Hurd]

4. UPDATE: Israel denies F-16 shot down (CNN.com news banner)

Breaking News: No Israeli military aircraft have been downed in Lebanon, an Israeli security source told Reuters, denying Lebanese media reports. "There was no such thing," the source said.

Breaking News banner from http://cnn.com

[JHH]

6. a reporter for ABC said the falling F-16 almost hit their TV crew

[Cooley Hurd]

8. I saw the footage on CNN - it was most definitely an aircraft...

It was in flames, and spinning out of control.

[zonkers]

31. Maybe it was just a nearby airshow.

[anotherdrew]

30. hmmm, must be someone else's f-16 then? n/t

[Roland99]

37. Maybe it was a Venezuelan fighter jet. Invade Bangladesh!

[onenote]

44. or maybe it wasn't an israeli plane at all

That is what the latest information seems to suggest. Of course, that won't stop folks from leaping to conclusions without waiting for hard information. Some DUers get positively Fristian in their enthusiasm for drawing conclusions from seeing a video clip of something they don't know that much about.

[TroglodyteScholar]

34. They denied their F-16 was shot down? Maybe they're telling the truth..

I mean, it's quite possible that it was ACTUALLY an F-15.

Yes, Israel has those too.

[HereSince1628]

5. Apparently Israel can't assume it's fighting a helpless enemy.

Missle hit on Israeli ship, now a jet? The weaponry available in the game has changed a bit it seems.

[sabbat hunter]

9. syria and iran

are bringing arms to hizbollah and have been for a long time.

[iverglas]

11. "The weaponry available in the game has changed a bit it seems."

And high bloody time it is.

Slingshots may have worked all very well for David, but Goliath didn't have every bit of technology and materiel that the USofA could provide.

A bit of Mutual Assured Destruction might be just exactly what is needed to put an end to the current atrocities being committed by Israel, and perhaps turn the ongoing war a little chillier.

[adriennui]

13. "atrocities committed by israel"

i love the hyperbole, i wasn't aware of the beheadings and the deliberate targetting of civilians.
words like this have made me more pro-israel because i know they are lies. the IDFs feel very stongly about trying not to involve civilians.

[iverglas]

14. you need to get out more

i love the hyperbole, i wasn't aware of the beheadings and the deliberate targetting of civilians.

If you saw something about beheadings in my post, perhaps you could copy and paste it for me. I'd hate to think you just pulled it out of ... thin air and tried to pretend it had something to do with something I'd said.

Then you can explain how a bunch of Canadians came to be killed when a house collapsed on them this weekend after being struck by something dropped by an Israeli plane. What do you suppose the plane was aiming at; the military airfield in their basement?

Then you could just look up "atrocities" in some relevant context. Google could maybe help you there.

Or you could just familiarize yourself with the Geneva Conventions, maybe. Maybe you and George and the present Israeli govt could form a study group and report back.

The complete destruction of the social/economic infrastructure of a population pretty much qualifies. You can take it from me; I know about these things.

[alcibiades_mystery]

15. If large numbers of civilian casualties are inevitable

I really don't see how it matters whether they were "deliberate."

This doesn't just apply to Israel, of course. I'm a bit sick of the completely vapid notion among Westerners that if one doesn't "intend" civilian casualties, that somehow excuses whatever civilian casualties do occur. If it is clear that X operation is highly likely to cause so-and-so number of civilian casualties, the "intention" is pretty much moot. Imagine the same principle working in law. "Well, I didn't 'intend' for 4 innocent people to be killed when I shot up the bar frequented by the dude that raped my wife." Oh, you didn't intend to hit the 4 innocent people? Just the wife rapist. OK. Then you're off the hook! Cheers! It is reckless disregard at the very least. Oh, I know the next argument that's coming: If Israel DID want to kill civilians, there wouldn't be a Palestinian left standing, blah blah blah. That's neither here nor there, however, since we've already argued, per analogy, that intention is not the fucking issue. In other words, the "deliberate" qualifier is mealy-mouthed and disgusting, and essentially meaningless.

[The Stranger]

17. Oh, please. They don't care about innocent civilians that "get caught

up in the cross-fire." And they are known from time to time to drop a shell in crowded marketplace.

[adriennui]

49. who is they?

the palestinians are the brave souls who deliberately target cafes and buses and celebrate death. in MY opinion israel is an oasis in the nasty, insane neighborhood known as the mid-east.
the hatred from some people here on DU toward israel is as bad as the craziness expressed by freepers.

[The Stranger]

52. You really can't be serious -- your "oasis" is bombing innocents

and destroying the best chance it ever had to be an "oasis" by ruining the chances of the fledgling Lebanese government. It is basically begging for Hezbollah to be strengthened. So much for a fucking "oasis."

[Tesha]

18. The IDF may feel strongly...

The IDF may feel strongly but their feelings about
protecting civilians don't seem to translate well
into action.

They also have a regretable tendency to deliberately
target news agencies and this has been demonstrated
many times.

Tesha

[iverglas]

22. deliberately?

Tsk. And it must be pure coincidence how the cell phone towers have been knocked down.

Why, all the people here:
http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/16/feedback.emails/
waiting desperately for news of their children and other family members, they could have been telling them where to aim rockets in Israel.

After all, Hezbollah doesn't have access to USAmerican satellite data for that kinda thing ...



oops, data, not date ...

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mmonk]

23. I was unaware the IDF works hard at avoiding civilian targets.

I thought collective punishment was acceptable and practiced. Are you sure?

[LeighAnn]

25. That's funny, I thought this was over two kidnapped soldiers

I hadn't heard yet about the beheadings of civilians.

I'm only pro-Isreal when they are obeying the Laws of God. There are a lot of interesting articles in the Bible about it.

[High Plains]

36. More than 100 Lebanese civilians killed by Israeli air strikes.

What do you call that?

[daleo]

42. What about the 8 Canadians killed by the IDF raid?

What genuine target do you think was in that house?

[anotherdrew]

45. sure, that's why they practice "Reflexive Firing" into the OT

they just shoot at anything and everyone, they shoot children intentionally, then they admit it to reporters, but of course you athletic supporters can't be bothered to consider what's going wrong, only, "they must defend at all costs"

what happens if they decide they have to destroy america to protect Israel?

[saskatoon]

46. avoid hitting etc

Yeah, Right!

[SlipperySlope]

33. Mutual destruction is an acceptable outcome

Given the alternative between mutual destruction or conceding to the enemy, mutual destruction may be a preferable option.

[formercia]

28. Enough AK-47s pointed in the air are bound to hit something

The F-16 is not designed for close-in work, unlike the warthog, which can fly down the throat of AAA.

[cal04]

7. Lebanese TV says Israeli aircraft shot down:reuters

Lebanese television stations said on Monday that an Israeli aircraft had been shot down over Lebanon and showed footage of burning debris falling from the sky. It was not immediately possible to confirm the report.

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=newsOne&storyID=2006-07-17T112759Z_01_L17711494_RTRUKOC_0_US-MIDEAST-LEBANON-AIRCRAFT.xml

[Hissyspit]

10. kick

[iverglas]

12. with any luck

it was this plane:

http://www.570news.com/news/international/article.jsp?content=w071239A

An Israeli plane dropped a 225-kilogram bomb on a home in the Gaza Strip before dawn Wednesday in an assassination attempt against a top Hamas official. The blast killed nine members of a Palestinian family - including a four-year-old boy. The head of Hamas' military wing was wounded but escaped, Israel said.

[Tesha]

19. Some "balance of power" might actually help.

Some "balance of power" might actually help bring
a measure of peace to this region as it would limit
both the Palestinians urges to "act out" out of power-
lessness and it would also limit Israel's ability to
feel like they can kick anyones ass whenever the urge
strikes them.

Then again, Israel will still have 100-200 nukes, so
at least for a while, any balance of power would only
extend to conventional weapons. But that's changing
also, of course, in part thatnks to the clever diplomacy
of our Dunce-in-Chief.

Tesha

[Swamp Rat]

16. Southern Lebanon? n/t

[allemand]

20. Both IDF and Al-Jazeera report that it was a pamphlet container, not a jet

14:52 IDF: Object seen shot down on Al Manar TV is pamphlet container (Channel 10)
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/ShTickers.html

Update 4: AlJazeera reported that the downed Israeli plane is a pamphlet container not an F-16 jet.
http://lebanesebloggers.blogspot.com/

[QuettaKid]

21. "a pamphlet container" ! ? ? !

never heard of such a thing....wouldn't they just drop them out the back of a plane?

[krispos42]

29. no, all payloads are carried on hardpoints under the wings

And body of the plane. Extra fuel, missiles, bombs, napalm, electronic counter-measure pods, laser designators, and thousands of pamphlets are all mounted to the wings and bodies of the planes.

Only the Stealth Fighter, I believe, has internal bomb bays, and that's because there's not much use in making a plane radar-invisbile if you then hang a few tons of highly-reflective steel bombs underneath it!

Big bombers also have internal bomb bays, but the only planes that drop stuff out the back of the planes are those firefighting water bombers. I believe the Canadians make the best ones.

(that was for you, iverglas) :-)

[iverglas]

32. I think

planes that drop stuff out the back of the planes are those firefighting water bombers. I believe the Canadians make the best ones.

they use that Canadarm thing to do it.

I saw a stealth bomber once, in my own town up here. I guess it was for an air show. I walked out of Zellers (think WalMart only very slightly more upscale, and Cdn-owned at that time) with one of the little girls across the street I'd taken shopping, and -- well, we didn't even need to look up. There it was, at what looked to be about 20 feet above the parking lot just about over our heads, not going anywhere fast as far as I could tell, but maybe it was just one of those long moments. For however long it was, I was pretty convinced the war of the worlds had just started.

[krispos42]

43. LOL

Yeah, it's downright creepy, huh?

I got buzzed by a B-1B a few years ago on I-90, near Ellsworth AFB in SoDak. We're driving, I'm in the back seat, and a bomber on final approach to the base is looming over us. I begin slapping the back of the front seat and going "Bomber bomber bomber bomber...."

We did the tour of the base on the way back from the Black Hills. It was pretty cool. They had an air musuem by the base, complete with a decommissioned B-52.

I hope we're using plenty of those firefighting planes now. We have some big ones brewing in California and Minnesota.

[Massacure]

48. Yes, the F-117 has an internal bomb bay, F-22.

and just about every plane that has a B in its designation, the B-52, the B-1 and the B-2, etc...

[Barrett808]

27. A...flaming...pamphlet container. n/t

[htuttle]

35. Then why was it on fire? -- I saw the tape

To be honest, to me it looked most like a piece of wing, but whatever it was, it was fully engulfed in vigorous flames as it fell, like from jet fuel.

[allemand]

39. Now they seem to be saying that it was an Iranian missile!

An Israel Air Force air strike in Lebanon on Monday destroyed at least one long-range Iranian-made missile capable of hitting Tel Aviv, Israel Defense Forces officials said.

The officials said an IAF aircraft targeted a Hezbollah truck carrying the weapons before they could be launched. The force of the blast sent at least one missile flying into the air, but it fell nearby. The officials spoke on condition of anonymity under military regulations.

Officials said the destroyed missile was an Iranian-made "Zilzal," which has a range of about 200 kilometers.

They said Lebanese TV stations broadcast video pictures of the incident, erroneously describing the destroyed missile as an IAF aircraft falling to the ground.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=739349&contrassID=1&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=0

Which would explain the fire, I guess, but now we need an explanation for the earlier story about the "pamphlet container". :crazy:

[rollin74]

38. Hezbollah missile crash

Hezbollah apparently tried to fire a long-range Zilzal missile (Iranian-made, 200km range). The missile malfunctioned and crashed back down in Lebanon.

[adriennui]

50. c'est domage.

paybacks' a bitch.

[sofa king]

40. Stratfor might have let something slip.

Hezbollah's claim of downing an Israeli air force jet sounds dubious -- though its anti-air capability could be considerable for a militant organization.

http://www.stratfor.com/products/premium/read_article.php?id=269470

Stratfor is deep up the rectum of America's military-industrial complex. So look at that second-to-last paragraph carefully--it might be a bit sugar-coated:

Hezbollah might have acquired the modern SA-18 in 2003. First deployed by Soviet forces in the early 1980s, this represents a much more robust capability. Anti-aircraft artillery is almost certainly available. Capability aside, anyone can fire things into the air, whether modern SA-18s or Kalashnikov rifles. With a hundred IAF aircraft over Lebanon, it is only a matter of time before one is shot down.

Interesting, no? It has been reported in the past that beginning in 2003, Syria began quietly seeking to improve its decrepit air defenses, while the Russians denied involvement all the way. In 2004, it was thought that Iraqi insurgents may have acquired SA-18s as well.

Either way, it seems likely to me that the Iraq war is the ultimate facilitating cause behind Hezbollah's acquisition of SA-18s, if they have in fact acquired them. Either they got them from Iraqi insurgents, or they benefited from their Iranian and Syrian patrons who are replacing their old AA missile stocks with new weapons in reaction to America's invasion of Iraq.

If it was a surface-to-surface missile, as suggested by the Israelis, it still appears to be related to the Russian-Syrian arms meetings denied in the links above.

[Poll_Blind]

47. Interesting. Thanks for the research on that! n/t

PB

[daleo]

41. This will be an excuse to widen the war

I wouldn't be surprised if Syria is being attacked from the air by the end of the week.

[adriennui]

51. wouldn't you just love that.

something else to blame on those wascally israelis.