Lebanon civilian deaths morally not same as terror victims -- Bolton

[leftchick]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060717/pl_afp/mideastconflictlebanon_060717204728

UNITED NATIONS (AFP) - US Ambassador John Bolton said there was no moral equivalence between the civilian casualties from the Israeli raids in Lebanon and those killed in Israel from "malicious terrorist acts".

Asked to comment on the deaths in an Israeli air strike of eight Canadian citizens in southern Lebanon Sunday, he said: "it is a matter of great concern to us ...that these civilian deaths are occurring. It's a tragedy."

"I think it would be a mistake to ascribe moral equivalence to civilians who die as the direct result of malicious terrorist acts," he added, while defending as "self-defense" Israel's military action, which has had "the tragic and unfortunate consequence of civilian deaths".

The eight dead Canadians were a Lebanese-Canadian couple, their four children, his mother and an uncle, said relatives in Montreal.

The Montreal pharmacist and his family had arrived in Lebanon 10 days earlier for a vacation in his parents' home village and to introduce his children to relatives, they said.





Marwa Abdallah, who survived Saturday's attack on a van in Tyre where twenty people where killed, rests at a hospital in Saida, south Lebanon July 16, 2006. Israeli air raids shook Beirut on Sunday, the fifth day of a devastating assault on Hizbollah and Lebanon that has prompted no U.N. Security Council action and only a mild plea for restraint from Israel's U.S. ally. REUTERS/Haidar Hawila (LEBANON)


what a pig... :(

[IndianaGreen]

1. Bolton is a racist neocon war criminal

And Democrats better oppose his nomination to UN Ambassador when it comes up again in January!

[still_one]

6. they did before, why wouldn't they do it again?

in addition, we will have control of at least one of the houses

[shance]

14. There's your reincarnated Nazi right there. At least he's not subtle.

n/t

[UncleSepp]

31. Reincarnated Nazis are better behaved.

[saigon68]

41. He is the evil spawn of the devil

[regnaD kciN]

72. Isn't there something ironic...

...in a "reincarnated Nazi" essentially saying that Israeli lives are worth more than Arab lives?

:shrug:

[EFerrari]

23. On a good day, he is. n/t

[ShortnFiery]

2. IMO, John Bolton is pure EVIL.

:grr: :nuke:

[gademocrat7]

3. bolton is not a diplomat.

He is an utter failure. Just like his boss. When is this nightmare going to end?

[still_one]

4. why give any credence to that POS Bolton

civilian deaths in any form are both equally detestable

Each sides casualties left someone who is mourning now

[regnaD kciN]

73. Because he speaks to the world on behalf of you and me...

:-(

[zonkers]

5. Hes the creepiest looking, darkest-vibed dude I've ever seen in Politics.

He just seems in a league of his own.

[tedzbear]

78. The stupid fuck's wig does not match his mustache.

His hair piece and mustache are a scream!!! Is that defiance or stupidity?

[TomClash]

7. A distinction without a difference

What he really means to say is that Israeli life means more than Lebanese or Palestinian life. Isn't this obvious?

[daleo]

48. Or Canadian life.

The family had Canadian citizenship, and the four youngest children (all under seven) had been born in Canada.

Now I know what it's like to be told your country's people don't really matter (I don't mean by you, I mean by Bolton and the rest of the neo-con fellow travelers, including Canada's own conservative prime minister).

[AliceWonderland]

59. We have a winner

Unfortunately. This is the crux of the matter.

Arab life just isn't worth as much.

[stepnw1f]

8. Dehumanize People to Justify their Death

Mr. Bolton, you sociopathic dweeb...

[Turbineguy]

9. Oh Please...

Shut the fuck up Bolton!

It's as if these people cannot believe they are actually supposed to be representing the United States of America.

[AnOhioan]

10. Go to hell Bolton....

Friggin ass

[BeyondGeography]

11. So they're worth less, if not worthless, right John?

Comments like this have no value whatsoever. Why don't you just quit your day job and be a full-time terrorist recruiter?

[AlamoDemoc]

12. While Mr. Bolton is pure evil...

....this entire administration is the root of evil.

[54anickel]

13. Sigh...of course he'd say that. It's the same with Iraqi civilian

casualties, there's no moral equivalence between them and the 9/11 victims of the Iraqi terrorist....oh wait, those guys weren't from Iraq, were they? :eyes:
Bolton is lower than pond scum, when is his "recess appointment" up anyway?

[MsKandice01]

15. I can't stand this piece of shit...

Go to hell you sociopathic bastard! Does anyone appointed by Monkey Boy have a conscience?

[pinto]

16. That's one pathetically sad and inflammatory comment for our

"diplomatic" representative to the UN to make.

[G2099]

17. He's talking "moral RACISM" - plain and simple

Or should I say "un-moral RACISM"?

[tocqueville]

18. tell that to the Canadian family , Mr Bolton, looking in their eyes

Lebanon deaths devastate Canadian Lebanese family By Robert Melnbardis
45 minutes ago

MONTREAL (Reuters) - A Canadian Lebanese family, devastated by the deaths of eight of its members in Israel's bombardment of Lebanon, is beseeching Ottawa to help Lebanon and its citizens escape the destruction.


Meysounn El-Akhras, sister of Ali El-Akhras, a Montreal pharmacist who was wounded in the bombardment on Sunday and also lost his four children, wife, mother and uncle, called on Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper on Monday to help her family and protect other Lebanese citizens.

"I demand that the government do what it can for my brother, who has just lost his mother, his four children," she tearfully told a press conference.

Ali El-Akhras was taken to a hospital in Beirut, where he succumbed to his injuries on Monday, a family member in Montreal told Reuters several hours after the press conference.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060717/wl_canada_nm/canada_mideast_canada_family_col

[bemildred]

19. Dolton is morally the same as an asshole.

Bombing cities is terrorism.

[Vidar]

20. Bolton is "morally not same" as a human being.

[kurth]

21. Death from a Hezbollah rocket is worse than from an Israeli F-16 bomb?

What an evil asshole.

[IndianaGreen]

24. It all depends as to who is doing the killing! Allow me to illustrate...

It is an act of terrorism to kill a handful of Blackwater mercenaries and string them up on a bridge in Fallujah.

It is not terrorism when in retaliation for the dead mercenaries, we drop phosphorus flares and Mk-77 incendiary bombs on the people of Fallujah to create what our troops jokingly refer to as "Shake 'n Bake."

[City Lights]

22. People are people. End of story.

God, just when I think I couldn't be any more disgusted by their actions/comments, they sink to a new low. :nuke:

[Triana]

25. what a damned crass assinine thing to say!!

My GOD what is wrong with the cretin?!

:mad:

[EFerrari]

26. He is a pig. Let's start calling him "Babe"'.

God help the poor people who have to work with this POS.

[tedzbear]

79. What an insult to Babe.

Please apologize immediately.

[EFerrari]

94. I do.

:)

[eppur_se_muova]

89. Better: "Napoleon", after a pig in 'Animal Farm'. nt

[EFerrari]

96. He wouldn't hear it. As far as he's concerned

he IS Napoleon.

[Rose Siding]

27. We are SO lucky to have Republicans who can teach us all about death

Questioned by reporters on what the difference was, Boehner seemed tongue-tied. "These were American citizens killed by terrorists. That is a very different policy issue than American soldiers dying on the battlefield protecting the rights and freedoms of American people."
"How so?" a reporter asked.

"How so? You want me to describe the difference between men and women of the military out there defending the American people, and victims - victims - of terrorist activities?" Boehner asked.

"They were both killed by opponents, right? Terrorists or Islamic insurgents?" a reporter pressed.

An exasperated Boehner said: "The World Trade Center victims were victims of a terrorist act here on our shore and I think all Americans were appalled that this did in fact happen. But I think the differences, in terms of the images, are as clear as night and day."

http://www.prospect.org/horsesmouth/2006/07/post_232.html#003257

[theanarch]

37. Boehner says it all...

..."But I think the differences, IN TERMS OF THE IMAGES, are as clear as night and day." The tautology being, as we all know, Republicans are good, and Democrats are bad, ergo, 9/11 images that serve GOP interests are good, and dead-grunt images that serve Democratic interests are bad. Geez, what's with all you reality-based morons? Don't you know Karl Rove is the decider of what is real and what isn't? Don't any of you watch Faux Spews?

[donkeyotay]

90. It's a brightly simple world they live in.

With us or against us. You either support the POS POTUS or you're a terrist. You either offer unconditional support for Israel, which even John Warner won't do, or you support Hezbolah. It's an endless string of false choices and slogans leading America into the slaughter house with half us us begging them to go faster.

[zara]

28. How can a Christian say this? Of course, if he's a "Christian"

in name only.

[leftchick]

29. he is no Christian

Jesus warned us about evil dudes like the chimp.

[checks-n-balances]

35. Ah, but does he claim to be "pro-life"?

Just askin'...

[tanyev]

40. He's going to have to set God straight on a few things, too, I guess.

[NoodleyAppendage]

30. SOCIOPATH. He's purely clinical.

Bolton is completely devoid of any form of conscience. He's a sociopath of the highest order and has only avoided inprisonment in his lifetime by aligning himself with those in power, for which sociopathy is often rewarded.

J

[ohno]

32. that picture

completely broke my heart.

[kamtsa]

33. I agree with Bolton

The terrorists try to maximize killing of civilians . Israel tries to minimize killing of civilians while defending itself.


Big difference in my book.

Kam

[leftchick]

36. exactly how

is Israel minimizing victims? Over 200 DEAD after repeated bombings of civilian areas. I guess I have not been watching fox news today. :eyes:

[theanarch]

38. actually, it's worse than that...

...i read earlier somewhere (sorry, information overload, can't link) that 24 IDF's are KIA, and scores more are wounded...and for what? The return of three POWs? Who would have been returned by now, with no civilian casualities on either side, if Olmert authorized the prisnor-swap sooner, rather than later, which is pretty much what Israel always does, once they realize brute force doesn't work.

[leftchick]

39. oh and btw

I am pretty sure you are the first person I have run across on DU who agrees with Bolton.

[Judi Lynn]

69. Oh, but Bolton's such a special person!

It's not just anyone who would consider trying to destroy every analyst in the State Department who wouldn't produce the evidence he wanted prior to the invasion of Iraq.

[IndianaGreen]

42. Israel's bombing of hospitals is a war crime in anyone's book!

And Israel's pathetic excuses for her slaughter of innocent Lebanese civilians are as hollow's as our Central Command's excuses for killing innocent Iraqi civilians.

[The Stranger]

45. Then this isn't the place for you.

A murdered civilian is a murdered civilian. And Supremacist notions that one race of person is worth more than another is Nazi thinking.

[LittleClarkie]

50. Well, they say they do, anyway

Like when they denied that they'd taken out a family, then said it was an accident. Oopsie. Oh well.

[daleo]

52. Is over 200 dead civilians really "minimizing"?

They have managed to kill more innocents while "minimizing" than Hezzbollah has while "maximizing". Neither is acceptable, but Israel has been far more "efficient" at killing innocent civilians this go round.

If a few dozen American citizens die in an IDF strike you may change your view.

[54anickel]

55. Maximize/minimize civilian deaths....lets look at the numbers thus far

http://www.canada.com/topics/news/world/story.html?id=112d84c9-e0ef-4a56-afda-9e38d0239eb5&k=93119&p=3

More than 230 people have been reported killed in Lebanon and Israel since fighting broke out Wednesday between Israel and Hezbollah guerrillas. Here is the breakdown:


-LEBANON: At least 210 people have been killed and more than 410 wounded, according to the Lebanese military and the national police. Those figures include nine Lebanese army soldiers and one Hezbollah guerrilla.

The guerrilla group has acknowledged that two of its fighters were killed.

The civilians include eight Canadians, two Kuwaitis, one Iraqi and one Sri Lankan, according to Lebanese police. Foreign Affairs, however, only confirmed the death of seven Canadians, while family members of some of the victims said at least nine had been killed.


-ISRAEL: Twenty-four Israelis have been killed, among them 12 soldiers, according to Israeli authorities. Nine soldiers have been wounded, and 294 civilians.

[iamjoy]

66. I See Your Point, But...

Terrorists do try to maximize civilian deaths.

But I don't know if Israel is really trying to minimize them or just classify it as collateral damage, an unfortunate circumstance of war.

I don't think Bolton was saying those lives were less important, just that there is a moral difference between the happiness terrorists take in civilian death and our own attitudes and reactions, which at worst is "Spit happens." However, morals are subjective and if a rocket kills your friend or loved one you don't really give a crap about the intent of the people who launched it.

[regnaD kciN]

74. If Israel had been trying...

...to "minimize killing of civilians while defending itself," it would have attacked Hezbollah bases in southern Lebanon, instead of civilians and civilian infrastructure in Beirut (which is in northern Lebanon).

[allemand]

76. Have a look at some of the "terrorists" killed by Israel.

They have names and faces too:

The El-Akhras family (Lebanese Canadians, 8 family members were killed, 6 wounded)
http://lettersapart.blogspot.com/2006/07/not-only-were-they-once-happy-they.html

The sad fact is that there are many such stories and many families like the El-Akhras' in Lebanon today.

Update: A Lebanese Army barracks in Jumhour was shelled. And today evening a whole family died under the rubble, 13, among them 9 children in Aitroun. What's the fault of these children? They were probably scared and hiding.
http://lebanesebloggers.blogspot.com/2006/07/nothing-but-words.html

[JackDragna]

85. Israel isn't defending itself..

..Israel is bombing the hell out of a nation that cannot control a powerful paramilitary force backed by other nations. Let's also not forget the Israelis are some of the masters of kidnapping and detaining Palestinians and Lebanese, but you never see that side in the news. I deplore terrorism, but as with our occupation in Iraq, anyone who knows a fraction of how the Israelis treat people over there shouldn't be surprised there are those willing to fight back.

[Carni]

99. What a pile of fucking crap

Dead is dead...but by all means rave on

[goforit]

34. Is this guy is looking for a taste of his own medicine, or what?

[Just Me]

43. Whoah! What bible did that freak read? He's like a demon.

Seriously. What a seriously, SERIOUSLY deranged individual. I'd say he's clinically, sociopathic and should be caged indefinitely, along with the rest of his neocon clan.

[The Stranger]

44. Holy Supremacist Nazi Mindfuck.

Is Bolton going to go ahead with medical experiments on the Lebanese civilians? Why is this subhuman even able to say this?

[Roy]

53. Because no one in the media nor the opposition party leaders

will call him on it.
Nor will they mention the ramifications of what this statement says to the rest of the world.

Nor will they expose the thinking such as this of REAL terrorist.
What if the Iranian president had said this?

[JerseygirlCT]

46. The thing is, those Lebanese civilians can also be said to have

died as a result of malicious terrorist attacks. Hezbollah did a fine job of setting this thing off. They don't give a crap about Lebanese victims, either.

And to say there's no moral equivalence? That's just immoral. People have died. Every death matters, every death is a horrible thing. You have to be some kind of cold-blooded idiot not to see that.

This is what terrorism does: indiscriminate killing of civilians.

[daleo]

47. When American forces or Israeli forces kill people,

They can do no wrong, according to people like Bolton. They don't even have to explain themselves. It is a form of exceptionalism at best, racism at worst.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[daleo]

61. Twain was genius, no doubt about it

And Bolton is exactly the kind of scum that Twain was warning us about.

[rodeodance]

49. my gawd, I can't believe he actually said that (and so terrible for the

families of the dead civilians--wherever they are from).

[rodeodance]

51. and just as bad--Bolton reporesnts the US to the world.

[regnaD kciN]

75. No worse than when his predecessor from the Reagan administration...

...Jeanne Kirkpatrick, excused the rape and murder of four Maryknoll workers by right-wing death squads in El Salvador in 1980. "These women were not just nuns," Kirkpatrick stated, implying that they were in league with the Marxist guerrillas. One of the other Reagan spokesmen denounced the victims as "the ultimate horror of our time -- radical nuns," clearly implying that they got what they deserved.

And who can forget the Nicaraguan "Contras," praised by that particular Republican administration as "the moral equivalent of the Founding Fathers?"

[Nothing Without Hope]

54. Bolton and his masters are all unspeakable monsters. Good that at least

we have his public statement on this. He is a black hole without love or honor. And he is the US voice in the UN. Of COURSE the US blocked a UN Security Council call for a ceasefire, the only country in the 15-member Council to oppose it:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2392488
title (7-15-06): US vetoes UN ceasefire call

K & R

So when can we get this recess-appointed monster out of the UN?

[lumpy]

56. Bolton playing God.

The most outrageous statement of the year committed by Bolton. Who does he think he is drawing moral equivalencies regarding the killing of people? By playing judge and jury he has placed himsef in a filthy corner by diminishing the deaths of innocents as being acceptable. There is no end to the lengths Bush and his cronies will not go to further their evil agenda. Good God, someone admonish this tyrant.

[drhilarius]

58. And they accuse us of being "moral relativists"? nt

[Rex]

60. Fuck you John Bolton, you don't represent me our my country.

All innocent death is horrible no matter what. War is immoral and John Bolton sucks ass.

[54anickel]

62. Looks like he's been saying this for a while. Google has this dated

as July 3

http://jta.org/page_view_breaking_story.asp?intid=3401

John Bolton called on Syrian authorities to arrest Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal.
The U.S. envoy to the United Nations issued the call last week.

Meshaal, based in Damascus, is believed to have ordered the June 25 attack in which Palestinian gunmen killed two Israeli soldiers and kidnapped another. Bolton dismissed comparisons between the kidnapping and Israel’s response.

“There is no moral equivalency to, on the one hand, deliberate attacking of civilians, taking lives, taking hostages versus the inadvertent and highly unfortunate civilian deaths that occur when a country exercises its right to self-defense,” he said last Friday. “Those are not the same act, they are not motivated for the same reasons, they do not carry the same moral weight.”

[donkeyotay]

91. Oh, he's talking about "collateral damage"

Like the carnage these same neocons have brought Iraq. So, you kill a few thousand soldiers, kill over a hundred thousand civilians, and bankrupt the greatest formerly-free nation on earth and it's no big deal. In fact, not only don't hold these dismal failures accountable, but promote them! BTW, I wonder what the neocons' motivations and reasons were. Greed? Bigotry? Grandiosity? A really bad theory and no compassion for the people suffering for it?

Not to worry, the secretary of state is on the job and she'll soon have everything straightened out.

[pecwae]

63. John Bolton lecturing on morals?!

I can't find an adjective to fully describe how outlandish his statement is. edit:spelling

[Malikshah]

64. Someone please look up Menachem Begin's record during the

Mandatory period. Send it to Bolton.

Have him explain this to folks.

After all, Begin was an elected PM...

[jobycom]

65. Further, Bolton claimed his tantrums were justified, but those of other

pouty babies were not.

[WCGreen]

67. Fuck this guy.....

[Polemicist]

68. Republican/Bush Moral Relativism....

Civilians killed by Israeli bombs are excusable. Civilians killed by Hezbollah missiles are murder.

Democratic commercials showing images of flag draped coffins of American Iraq war dead is wrong. Republican commercials showing images of flag draped coffins of American 9/11 victims is OK.

John Dean is right. Conservatives have lost their conscience.

[flyarm]

70. i can hardly stand this anymore..that fucker is worse than pond scum

he ia a bacteria that is destroying this once proud country..i have such shame today..unlike anything i have known my entire 54 years...

i am so ashamed of my nation..and the people who are supposed to be representing us..

what horrible shame i have..

fly

[regnaD kciN]

71. He's just saying out loud...

...what most Americans think, but are too polite to express in public:

"They're only nigg...I mean Ay-rabs."

:grr:

[saigon68]

77. And they wear diapers on their heads

Congressman John Cooksey of Monro La.

Cooksey, an arch-conservative Republican, is planning to run against Sen. Mary Landrieu, a Democrat nearing the end of her first term. Cooksey made news about airport security and racial profiling in the wake of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.

"If I see someone comes in that's got a diaper on his head and a fan belt wrapped around the diaper on his head, that guy needs to be pulled over," Cooksey said during an interview with Louisiana Radio Network.

Cooksey's comment came last Monday, the same day that President Bush, a fellow Republican, visited an Islamic mosque and praised mainstream Islam as a religion of peace.

[sugapablo]

80. Wait a freakin' minute!

There isn't a difference between intentionally killing civilians and civilians being killed as unintended casualties?

Come on! Bolton's an ass hole, but on this he's correct.

Is it possible in modern warfare for a country to take military action to defend its citizens without hitting civilians? We don't fight wars on open battlefields like we did in 1776 anymore. Not to mention, that groups like Hamas and Hezbollah use civilians as human shields, firing rockets from homes in hopes that the retaliation by Israel will create good fodder for Al-Jazeera.

How many civilians did the US kill in Germany when we bombed the hell out of Hitler's armies? We leveled entire cities from the sky. Was the US committing "war crimes"? Was Hitler not worth getting? Was his army not worth defeating? Should we have not attacked him for fear of hitting civilians? Wasn't there a difference between what Hitler was doing exterminating Jews and what the US was doing in bombing Germany? Wouldn't it have been a "mistake to ascribe moral equivalence" to those two actions? It's not the deaths that lack the moral equivilence, it's the actions that caused them that do.

I know many in the progressive movement love to bash Israel at every turn, and I even understand why. Many on the left need to feel that they're defending a perceived "underdog" and feel the Palestinians (and now Lebanon) are that underdog. While these groups are victims, it is NOT Israel they are a victim of. It is extremists. Extremists who ask their sons to die in glorious death, but are unwilling to go along for the ride to Paradise. Extremists who use them as human shilds. Exteremists who kill the lion's cubs and cry foul when the lion swipes back.

Israel is NOT the bad guy here. It's disgusting to see this form hatred taking shape here. Disgusting!

[semillama]

82. Are you seriously comparing a terrorist group to a nation?

and yes - the deliberate targeting of civilians is a war crime. Dresden was a war crime. But winners of wars don't get prosecuted.

Hitler is not the same as Hezbollah. I'm not defending either. but your analogy is faulty.

Israel targeted civilian infrastructure as retaliation. They bombed TV stations. TV stations are not a legitimate military target. Hezbollah did hide rockets in civilian neighborhoods. Does that mean every civilian in the neighborhood is the equivalent of a terrorist?

If you define terrorism as the targeting of civilians and civilian assets with intent to cause massive damage in order to procur a political change in your enemy, then Israel has performed acts of terrorism. They are threatening Lebanon with destruction and civilian deaths unless they change their current stance on Hezbollah. Hezbollah is threatening Israel with the same in order to meet their political goals. I think they are moral equivalents.

Now, if you define terrorism as being whatever the enemy does but not what we or our allies do, then it isn't. I believe that's the working definition in use by the current administration.

[sugapablo]

83. You're definitions are faulty

Israel targets infrastructure that supports those that are firing rockets at them. There is nothing wrong with that from a military perspective.

For years, Pittsburgh (where I live) was considered a TOP target among USA's enemies. Why? Because we produced all the steel for our ships, planes, tanks, etc. During WWII, Pittsburgh produced enough steel to create one new naval warship a day. Now, there are no military bases here in Pittsburgh, but it was most certainly a military target because of those steel mills. Even though the workforce in those mills was 100% civilian.

The TV station Israel targeted was Hezbollah's, used for recruitment and incitement. Israel knocked out infrastructure to prevent Hezbollah from being able to move missles and missle launchers, troops, etc. Israel deliberately avoided electrical plants and water facilities. Lebanon could have been rendered black and without water if Israel felt like it.

Unfortunately for the Lebanese people, Hezbollah uses their "civilian infrastructure" for their purposes in attacking Israel. Israel has no choice but to knock out roads, airports, etc. in order to diminish Hezbollahs ability to KILL ISRAELIS.

Yes, innocent Lebanese are caught in the crossfire, but Israel HAS TO first protect it's civilians, and that's what they're doing.

Remember, Israel has been completely out of Lebanon for years. The attack on Israel that killed soldiers, captured 2 more, and sent ~100 missles into northern Israel was unprovoked.

[daleo]

84. You don't know what Israel's targets are supposed to be

Since they don't bother explaining themselves, except in vague generalities.

Israel puts a great importance on what it refers to as "deterrence". That means hitting back so as to cause far more casualties than it suffered. It can't always find paramilitary enemies like Hezzbollah in sufficient numbers, so it hits civilians in those cases. That's the reason for hitting civilian targets.

In this case it has gone far beyond that. Hitting the Lebanese army and Christian areas in the north can in reasonable way be connected to stopping Hezzbollah. There seems to be something more at work. It could be a desire to widen the war to Syria and Iran, and to bring in the U.S. That may or may not be with the background connivance of the Bush administration, who also wants war with Iran.

[Zhade]

100. You know, innocent Lebanese and Palestinians also need water.

Or are you of the racist notion that all Lebanese/Palestinians desire dead Israelis?

[Demeter]

81. And Bolton's Death Will Be Of NO Consequence

except a general sigh of relief. In fact, that applies to the whole regime. Like lancing a boil on the backside of the the world.....

[Bridget Burke]

86. Bolton's diplomatic credentials?

He helped Bush steal Florida.

[donkeyotay]

92. Ain't that sweet? Crime does pay. nt

[chookie]

87. He's not just an asshole -- he's an *official* US asshole

This is not just some wacko like Ann Coulter making noise. This isn't even someone like Pat Robertson waxing loonily.

Bolton is an official US representative.

He is relaying the official position of the United States government, that only Israeli lives matter. And that's even though we are not (yet) directly involved in this war.

This is not simple idiocy -- this is a deliberate attempt to further enrage and radicalize Muslims. They *want* to provoke an incident ASAP. They *want* an all out regional war, with the US and Israel fighting side by side. We a just one small provocation away from direct involvement.

When American soldiers do get involved fighting for Israel and the military industrial plutocracy (aka Bush's Base) -- we will see again that the official US policy will be that Israeli lives are more important than American ones.

[gully]

88. "ALL ANIMALS ARE EQUAL, BUT SOME ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS."

[bloom]

93. I think that Bolton is just more blunt about it than other people.

Only a couple people here agreed with him - a lot of people have been saying something very similar on other threads with the idea that what Israel is doing is OK - and what Hezbolla is doing is not.

They are both killing civilians. Israel is killing a lot more. But supposedly that is OK - because Israel is allowed to do that and Hezbolla is not. Israel can defend itself - Hezbolla cannot.

If someone is saying that the group's killing is an act of self-defense and so is therefore morally justified and that the other group's killing is NOT self-defense - but offense and so is NOT morally justified - isn't that what Bolton is saying?

---

I think that it's all bad myself. I don't think that what Israel is doing is self-defense - I see them as the aggressors. Hezbolla does not have a country that they are defending - and what they are doing does not seem necessary for their survival as individual people. They could say that it is necessary for the survival of their group. If their "group" is Palestinians - it's a more convincing argument that their group is endangered - than to believe that Israel is endangered. (Even the neo-con type people are saying that there will be no Palestinian State - that that concept is over - my guess is that the Palestinian people do not agree with that).

Either side might claim that what they are doing is necessary for their survival as a group. The question is - do you believe it?

I think that for people to defend Israel's actions - you have to be able to think that killing others is morally OK - whether it is necessary for self-defense or not. People make that argument for people in the US military - that they are there because they have no other job options, for instance - that it doesn't have to be self-defense to be OK. Of course - I don't buy that, either. People are a lot less likely to say that the US gov't is making legitimate decisions to kill civilians - while people here WILL make that argument for Israel.

[Nihil]

101. That's the worrying thing.

> people here agreed with him

> They are both killing civilians. Israel is killing a lot more. But supposedly
> that is OK

This is the danger ... defending yourself against an attacker is something
that most people will understand but this artificial concept of "pre-emptive
defence" is just so much shit ... "Mind if I shoot you 'cos you looked at
my son in a funny way?" ... "Some bastard threw a brick through my window
so I'm gonna demolish your house ... the brick came from your direction!"

The fear is that people continue to buy into this "pre-emptive defence" bullshit
and support the wanton killing of random civilians on the pretence that they
"might" have been protecting someone who "might" have launched the firework
that went over the border ...

[shadowknows69]

95. Thank you Mr. Bolton

I never in my life wanted to truly hate another human being but I think you just won the prize.

[TheWatcher]

97. John Bolton Being Beaten To Death For Spewing this bile morally not same

as terror victims.

In fact, world would be made better place, some say.

Film at 11.

[Endangered Specie]

98. Fucker reminds me or Arjen Rudd...

(from Lethal Weapon II)