Israel won't rule out full-scale invasion

[DoYouEverWonder]

July 20, 2006

BEIRUT, Lebanon - Israeli troops met fierce resistance from Hezbollah guerrillas Thursday as they crossed into Lebanon to seek tunnels and weapons for a second consecutive day. Israel, meanwhile, refused to rule out a full-scale invasion.

Israeli warplanes also launched new airstrikes on Beirut's southern suburbs, a Hezbollah stronghold, shortly after daybreak Thursday, followed by strikes in the guerrilla's heartland in the south and eastern Bekaa Valley.

The strikes came a wave of bombings Wednesday killed as many as 70 people, according to Lebanese television, making it the deadliest day since the fighting began on July 12.

Russia sharply criticized Israel over its onslaught against Lebanon, now in its ninth day, sparked when Hezbollah guerrillas captured two Israeli soldiers. The Russian Foreign Ministry said Israel's actions have gone "far beyond the boundaries of an anti-terrorist operation" and repeating calls for an immediate cease-fire.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060720/ap_on_re_mi_ea/lebanon_israel;_ylt=A0SOwj8FdL9ENHUAKBSs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ--


They are out of their minds. This would not be happening if Bush didn't give the green light.

[ShortnFiery]

1. Is there such a thing as a premature cease-fire? eom

[muriel_volestrangler]

19. I think it's defined as 'premature' if

you still have ammo left when your opponent doesn't.

[Zhade]

43. Juan Cole (quoting Daily Star): "Israelis crossed into Lebanon."

http://www.juancole.com/

THEY'RE INVADING! Is the Israeli government INSANE? The IDF got kicked out LAST TIME, and there wasn't the anger over an illegal invasion of Iraq then!

Kofi Annan said the Israeli government's collective punishment must stop. I agree!

(And Hezbollah have to STOP FIRING PUNY BUT CLUMSILY LETHAL ROCKETS AT CIVILIANS. Not invading IDF, by international law they're fair game as invaders. But a cease-fire is best!)

[Biernuts]

2. If someone were firing missiles into a US City, I would advocate

military action, including full scale invasion, against the geographic source of the launches.

Missiles into NYC, Washington, Denver, Houston, New Orleans, Atlanta, Chicago, Los Angeles, San Francisco or wherever? Frankly don't give a damn about the motives of those launching - I'm for permanently removing their capability. After they can no longer damage us, then I'll talk with them, preferably about whether they prefer hanging, firing squad or injection.

[DoYouEverWonder]

3. So it's okay to fly fighter jets and drop bombs

and fire missiles whenever you wish?

[DemFromMem]

5. When you are attacked, you have a right to respond.

And I don't care about complaints about disproportionate response. Sometimes you need to make the consequences so severe to get the message across that the price of terrorism is not worth it.

[DoYouEverWonder]

6. When is it an attack

and when is it a response.

What is the difference?

[regnaD kciN]

56. Simple...

...when "they" do it, it is an attack; when "we" do it, it is a response. :sarcasm:

[FreeStateDemocrat]

8. Nuke'em, bomb'em back to the stone age, kill'em all, gas'em, napalm'em

[truth2power]

20. Was that sarcasm? Just asking...n/t

[Minstrel Boy]

10. If you make the consequences so severe

then nothing is worth more than lashing back.

That's the modern history of the Middle East.

[ima_sinnic]

11. riiiight -- so then who gets the message across to the big

bad "responding" terrorists?

If my neighbor "terrorizes" me by, say, throwing a rock through my picture window, it's okay to "get the message across" by murdering his entire family, torching his house, mutilating his dog, and feeding his cats to the nearest alligator swamp?

sheesh.

[LostinVA]

17. Bad analogy

You do all that to your neighbor IN ADDITION to the other people on your block who have no control over your neighbor, and have no knowledge about what he had up his sleeve.

[humbled_opinion]

46. Why such inhumane treatment to the cats. E.O.M.

[LostinVA]

16. Lebanon has not attacked Israel

And, invading a sovereign nation for no reason IS illegal... no matter if Bush likes to think it isn't. So, tell me, what kind of message is Israel giving to the wholly innocent citizens of Lebanon they are killing and making homeless?

Spin all you want, it is immoral and illegal, and has NOTHING to do with terrorists.

[Biernuts]

27. Those attacking are harbored there - same difference in my book

Canada protects the assholes lobbing missiles at Detroit - then they be going DOWN! (Preferably after torture!):nuke:

[Zhade]

45. So you support Iraqis bombing us here?

That's how your argument plays out.

[coalition_unwilling]

30. It's actually conceived strategically at about the same level

as our massive and continued bombing of North and South Vietnam, i.e., "to send a message." In this case, Israel is using bombing to "send a message" to Syria and Iran, much as we bombed North Vietnam to "send a message" to China and the Soviet Union.

It will probably work about as well this time as it did the last :sarcasm:

[saigon68]

38. It won't work at all

It will end like this

[DemFromMem]

18. You all act like this is the first thing that has ever happened

There have been rocket attacks being launched for the last several years as well as numerous incursions. Israel exercised restraint so of course the world media has ignored it.

[jonnyblitz]

26. So you think it is newsworthy when Israel DOESN'T go

overboard? That comment is telling right there.

It is such a rare occasion that they practice restraint that it probably IS major news when they actually do. you do have a point.

this collective punishment thing is criminal to say the least.

[DemFromMem]

28. disconnect

OK, I don't think you are getting my point. The point I responded to was whether Isreal IS going overboard. The premise is that this is a response solely to the kidnapping (which is bad in and of itself). The assumption is that the bombing is a response solely to that one incident and that "overboard" is based on whether Israel's response is proportionate to the one incident. My point is that there have been six years of incidents since Israel LEFT Lebanon that have been accumulating.

Look, the fact that Hezbollah has 10,000 missiles should tell you something. These guys mean serious business. And the 10,000 missiles are not just a threat to Israel. They are also Syria and Iran's proxies and they are there not just to threaten Israel, but to keep Lebanon's government in line.

[DoYouEverWonder]

23. The Lebanese people aren't being attacked?

They don't have a right to respond?

The suicide bombers come from Palestine, not Lebanon for the most part. Collective punishment of a civilian population is a violation of International Law.

[DemFromMem]

31. Two points

From your response, it sounds like you are endorsing Israel's right to respond to suicide bombers coming from the Palestine. That's unexpected progress.

Second, we Democrats have stated over and over again that President Bush had a right to go to war in Afghanistan after 9/11, but not Iraq, because Afghanistan allowed Al Qaeda to operate there while Iraq had nothing to do with the attack. A lot of innocent people died in Afghanistan as is the case in every war. But we had the right to go after Al Qaeda and the fact that Afghanistan gave them a free hand to operate condemned the Afghan people to the miserable suffering of a war. This is analogous and equally unfortunate.

Countries that give free rein to terror groups don't get protection just because innocent people will die when other countries respond to unjustified attacks. If there was any real evidence that Lebanon was taking concerted steps to try and get rid of Hezbollah, even if they were failing, I would probably feel differently about what is happening.

Finally, I'll say it again - this would stop tomorrow if Hezbollah would release the kidnapped Israelis. Why don't we hear from more people on this board demanding that?

[lumpy]

34. Going into Afghanistan was a knee-jerk

reaction that caused the deaths of untold innocent Afghans. The objective was to get Bin Laden's Al Queda, remember? Some of us 'we' Democrats did not agree with all out military action in Afghanistan. Mission unaccomplished, innocent Afghans paid the price of US rash action.

[DemFromMem]

39. We'll have to disagree on that one

Just because we didn't get Osama doesn't mean we should never have tried. A Democratic President would have made the same move. We can bitch about Bush's skills and competence in waging war. I think most people here would agree that he's a disaster in that regard. And his complete lack of a diplomatic component to his foreign policy causes almost as much trouble for this country as the war.

[DoYouEverWonder]

41. I never supported invading Afghanistan

'WE DEMS' whoever that's supposed to be did not.

If we wanted to retailiate against the people behind 9-11, we should have started in the Oval Office.

[superconnected]

32. Uh, Israel started getting attacked AFTER they attacked

It's not like they just got attacked and didn't fully deserve it.

[DemFromMem]

40. Israel deserved it?

A lot of thoughtful people who disagree with Israeli policy post on this board and don't deserve to be called hateful. I can't say the same for you. No one deserves to the be the victim of terrorism. And, yes, this was terrorism. Israel does not occupy Lebanon. They do not hold Lebanese soldiers. To say they deserve it is awful.

[regnaD kciN]

42. To state the obvious...

Israel does not occupy Lebanon. They do not hold Lebanese soldiers.

...neither does Lebanon occupy Israel. Nor does the Lebanese government hold Israeli soldiers.

I have no complaint about Israel defending itself against Hezbollah. I have a major problem with Israel "defending itself" by attacking Lebanese civilians and the country's infrastructure for the misdeeds of a terrorist/paramilitary group backed and directed by Syria, not Lebanon. And I have an equally major problem with the notion -- which has been around ever since I can remember, but whose longevity doesn't justify it -- that anything Israel chooses to do in retaliation should be excused because it's "self-defense." By any sensible standard of justice, not everything is permitted in "self-defense" -- it has to be both reasonable and proportionate. And, as far as I'm concerned, Israel's onslaught against Lebanon fails on both counts.

There's an element of a "so what? -- they're all Ay-rabs anyway" attitude at work here that I find deeply racist. It's not entirely unlike claiming that the workers in the WTC deserved to die because of the foreign policy misdeeds of the U.S.

[humbled_opinion]

47. The Problem

Terror groups are using innocent civilians to shield them. Collateral damage becomes greater. My personal take on it is we should here more condemnation from the Arab community about these terror groups. How come Hezbollah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc are allowed to exist in the Arab community. If they (the Arabs) did not aid and abet then the terror organizations would have no infrastructure or support among their own kind and would fail.The Arabs need to do a better job of keeping their houses (Mosques) clean. Unless of course the majority of Arabs feel that this is the right approach. Lets look at which side is driven by hate. Then you see who the real villains are.

[regnaD kciN]

55. Grotesque and ridiculous over-simplifying...

Terror groups are using innocent civilians to shield them.

So it has always been. It does not follow that a civilized society has carte blanche to kill off the civilians to get to the "bad guys."

But, in this case, even that doesn't apply. Israel's bombing campaign hasn't been primarily against terrorist cells that happened to be hidden in civilian areas. No, its targets have been mainly the Lebanese infrastructure (the airport, major highways, power and water stations, commercial industry, etc.). Some of the attacks have been against Christian neighborhoods of Beirut, which are the last places you'd find Hezbollah guerrilla bases. No, this isn't about "collateral damage" -- this is about a deliberate attempt at collective punishment through, in the words of one Israeli military official, "setting Lebanon back 20 years" (in other words, back to the last time Israel left Lebanon in ruins) -- even though the Lebanese people and its government do not support and have no control over Hezbollah.

My personal take on it is we should here more condemnation from the Arab community about these terror groups.

Considering that there has been considerable condemnation about them, particularly in light of recent events (as expressed by, at least, the Lebanese, Palestinian, Egyptian, and Saudi governments -- and even from the Iranians), suggests that the problem is that you don't here (sic) too well. Perhaps you have pre-conceived notions in your ears?

How come Hezbollah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc are allowed to exist in the Arab community.

How come the KKK, Aryan Nations, NAAWP, Stormfront, etc (sic) are allowed to exist in the American community. (sic) Contrary to what you might think, the Arab countries in that region can't exert complete control over their societies any more than we can -- less, in most cases. Besides, your mention of the "Arab community," as if it were a monolithic organization, is quite telling of your own pre-conceived notions. If there's one thing that should be obvious from even a cursory look at the region, it's that there's no single "Arab" entity -- there's a whole patchwork of differing religious, ethnic, and, yes, political positions dominant in various places, oftentimes in conflict with each other.

If they (the Arabs) did not aid and abet then the terror organizations would have no infrastructure or support among their own kind and would fail.

They...them...their own kind...you sure have a thing for pigeonholing, don't you? There are factions within the Arab world that support these groups because they feel the groups address genuine grievances (and sometimes are the only ones doing so). There are others who oppose them. Do you seriously believe that the Egyptian government aids and abets the Muslim Brotherhood (the group that's trying to replace it) there? That the new Lebanese government aids and abets Hezbollah (a group controlled by Lebanon's enemy Syria)? That the Jordanians aid and abet Hamas? If so, it only demonstrates your woeful ignorance of what's going on in that region.

Most Arab governments don't support the Islamists -- out of self-interest as much as anything, since most of those militant groups have the goal of overthrowing their local government and replacing it with an Islamic state. Most Arab peoples seem not care one way or another, and will support or oppose the militants depending on whether or not they believe their aspirations can be achieved through a more moderate path. (For example, in the days when the Oslo "peace process" seemed to be paving the way to an independent Palestinian state, polls taken in the West Bank and Gaza indicated that 80% of those polled were opposed to Hamas and other militant groups, while only 20% approved of them. A few years later, when the Oslo accords lay in ruins, the numbers had flipped.)

Currently, the biggest backers of militant groups throughout the Middle East appear to be Syria (an Arab nation), Iran (a non-Arab nation), and al-Qaeda forces operating on the Pakistani-Afghan border (a non-nation operating from a non-Arab region). Not exactly the monolithic "them" you seem to want to see when you look at "the Arabs."

The Arabs need to do a better job of keeping their houses (Mosques) clean.

The Americans need to do a better job of keeping their houses (Churches) clean. Do you even begin to realize how ridiculous that sounds?

Unless of course the majority of Arabs feel that this is the right approach.

When all else fails, present an indefensible claim as a rhetorical question or "what if?" type of statement...

Lets look at which side is driven by hate.

It doesn't take too much of a study to realize that both sides are driven by hate...especially if you look at deeds (like killing hundreds of innocent civilians with no connection to militant groups, not even living near them) and not just words.

Then you see who the real villains are.

I'd say the "real villains" are those on either side who think that, because of what their "group" has suffered in the past, they now have the right to do whatever they want with impunity.

[humbled_opinion]

67. Perspectives are wonderful and sorry I ...

just don't see it the same way as you do. However I really do agree with "I'd say the "real villains" are those on either side who think that, because of what their "group" has suffered in the past, they now have the right to do whatever they want with impunity.

[Bridget Burke]

62. Quite a few Lebanese are Christians

And I don't really see "Arabs" as a monolithic group.

[humbled_opinion]

65. I mean't those with influence i.e., who pull the strings

[Bridget Burke]

68. So--give me a list of those who pull the strings.

Along with their religious affiliation. (The Lebanese Christians I've known are hardly starving peasants.)

[DoYouEverWonder]

52. "Israel does not occupy Lebanon."

You're kidding?

Israel has occupied Southern Lebanon before but they pulled out because apparently that wasn't working very well.


"They do not hold Lebanese soldiers."

Here's a list of some of the prisoner exchanges over the year. Sure looks like a fair number of Lebanese people were included.


Previous Israeli Prisoner Exchanges


March 15, 1979 - Israel exchanges 66 Palestinian prisoners in exchange for an Israeli soldier captured in Lebanon.

Nov. 24, 1983 - Six Israeli soldiers captured in Lebanon are released by the Palestine Liberation Organization in exchange for 4,700 Palestinian and Lebanese prisoners held by Israel.

June 28, 1984 - 291 Syrian soldiers and 20 security prisoners were exchanged for three Israeli soldiers and three Israeli civilians as well as the remains of two Israeli soldiers.

May 21, 1985 - Three Israeli soldiers captured in Lebanon are released by the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command in exchange for 1,150 prisoners held by Israel.

July 21, 1996 - Israel frees 45 Shiite Muslims and returns the bodies of 100 Hezbollah fighters to Hezbollah in exchange for the bodies of two Israeli soldiers killed in Lebanon.

June 25, 1998 - Israel frees 60 prisoners and transfers the bodies of 40 Hezbollah fighters to Hezbollah in exchange for the body of an Israeli soldier killed in Lebanon.

October 1997 - Israel releases about 70 prisoners, including Hamas leader Sheik Ahmed Yassin, in exchange for two intelligence agents who were captured during an attempt to assassinate another Hamas leader, Khaled Mashaal.

Jan. 29, 2004 - Hezbollah releases an Israeli citizen and the bodies of three Israeli soldiers in exchange for 429 prisoners held by Israel and 59 bodies of Lebanese killed in fighting.

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/world/15015099.htm


You might want to study the history of the region a little more before you make ridiculous blanket statements.

[superconnected]

69. What are you talking about?

Israel is out bombing a country. They fully deserve to be bombed in retaliation. Why shouldn't the other country bomb back?

[manic expression]

72. Well,

if you pound a country into the ground, a response is TO BE EXPECTED. Those missiles were basically a very feeble reaction to undeniable aggression and murder.

Israel DOES hold innocent people without trials, so you're wrong on that point as well.

So no, it wasn't awful and it wasn't unreasonable to say such a thing.

[Zhade]

44. So then, Iraqis are justified in bombing us here?

If you say no, you're a hypocrite, and it's probably motivated by latent racism.

[daleo]

25. So, you think Beirut should retaliate for the Israeli missiles?

Frankly, I don't think they have the capacity. Besides, there has been enough escalation already. Your concern for innocent Lebanese civilians is admirable, but I think a ceasefire is the sanest route now.

[coalition_unwilling]

29. Would you still feel that way if, say, Iraq or Vietnam were to send

missiles against us, after we had dropped thousands of tons of high explosives on them and killed massive numbers of their civilians?

[lumpy]

35. If a US city was attacked by a anti-US

group based in Canada, I sincerely believe that all-out military force would not be called into action if cooler heads prevailed. Sure it's a given that many people would see nothing wrong with attacking the Canadian people for the actions of a few. Bloodlust does exist within tribal thought; revenge has no borders when animal instinct prevails.

[humbled_opinion]

49. No you would expect the government of Canada to condemn..

The actions loud and clear and do everything in their power to purge themselves of this had filled group. If they did not clean their own house then they aid and abet and are guilty by association so yes at that point its time to defend ourselves.

[regnaD kciN]

59. You mean, the same way the government of Lebanon has condemned...

...the Hezbollah capture of the IDF soldiers? The fact that you seem not to have known that only testifies to your ignorance of the situation you so pontificate about.

[western mass]

54. That's why we bombed Michigan after McVeigh...

We did, didn't we? Memory's not what it used to be...

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[leftchick]

4. fuck!

war criminals!

[DoYouEverWonder]

7. Rove and Perle are laughing with glee

this morning I'm sure.

The timing couldn't have been better.

How many weeks until they blow up the Temple Mount so that Rove can rouse Bush's base.

[ima_sinnic]

9. what else could be expected from the US's little pet country?

Israel gets obscenely huge amounts of aid from the U.S. -- in the billions every year, far more than any other country receives, I believe. No matter what they do it's AOK with past and current U.S. administrations and, assumedly, with U.S. taxpayers. Israel is just emulating Big Daddy USA, who laughs and encourages its little pet country the way a dumb@$$ father would laugh at and encourage the antisocial behavior of his school bully son.
And, btw, just my humble opinion: if it weren't for our coddling of Israel, I don't think 9/11 would have happened.

[cali]

12. Oh, i think it's quite likely

9/11 would have happened. So do the vast majority of scholars.

[ima_sinnic]

13. it (our favoritism toward & support of Israel) was specifically cited

as a reason by OBL and/or "al Qaeda," I believe. At the time it happened I had a sense that it was related to that, and sure enough, a statement came out a some point specifically referring to Israel. But I can't cite a source on that, just a vague memory.

[Bridget Burke]

63. 9/11 could have been prevented by a President who cared....

About National Security. (Which "scholars"?)

Our Israel policy is something else again.

[DoYouEverWonder]

64. The vast majority of scholars

Who might this vast majority be?

[humbled_opinion]

50. You use my line humble opinion.... and mine is quite different

and in fact the terror groups get quite a lot of aid from their sponsoring countries who by the way if you hadn't noticied are Rich beyond belief in the most sought after and prized commodity of the 21st century. They get stronger as we get weaker. In fact I say that the Arab states sponsoring terror are getting exactly what they deserve and its time that we wake up before we are next.

[regnaD kciN]

60. No kidding...

Your repeated pontificating, in this thread, about matters of which you are demonstrably uninformed only reminds me of Churchill's legendary evaluation of a rival politician: "He's a humble man...with much to be humble about."

[leesa]

14. Anyone doubt this is what they wanted?

[rodeodance]

15. Israel hints at a full-scale invasion

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060720/ap_on_re_mi_ea/lebanon_israel;_ylt=Anu4VLgOo.MNun0sk3EIzH6s0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3b3JuZGZhBHNlYwM3MjE-

Israel hints at a full-scale invasion

By HUSSEIN DAKROUB, Associated Press Writer 5 minutes ago

BEIRUT, Lebanon - Israeli troops met fierce resistance from Hezbollah guerrillas Thursday as they crossed into Lebanon to seek tunnels and weapons for a second straight day, and
Israel hinted at a full-scale invasion.
ADVERTISEMENT

Israeli warplanes also launched new airstrikes on Beirut's southern suburbs, a Hezbollah stronghold, shortly after daybreak, followed by strikes in the guerrillas' heartland in the south and eastern Bekaa Valley.

The strikes followed bombings Wednesday that killed as many as 70 people, according to Lebanese television, making it the deadliest day since the fighting began July 12.

Russia sharply criticized Israel over its onslaught against Lebanon, now in its ninth day, sparked when Hezbollah militants captured two Israeli soldiers. The Russian Foreign Ministry said Israel's actions have gone "far beyond the boundaries of an anti-terrorist operation" and repeating calls for an immediate cease-fire.

At least 306 people have been killed in Lebanon since the Israeli campaign began, according to the security forces control room that collates casualties. In Israel, 29 people have been killed, including 14 soldiers. The U.N. has said at least a half- million people have been displaced in Lebanon.

[rainbow4321]

21. Lebanese official: Lebanese Army may join forces with Hizbullah

Small blurb on jpost.com:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1153291959920&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

The Lebanese Minister of Defense warned Israel Thursday that if IDF ground forces are sent into southern Lebanon, Lebanese troops will fight along with the Hizbullah against Israel.

[lumpy]

36. Lebanon has a right to defend itself

at this point in time, considering it is Israel that is destroying it's infrastructure and killing Lebanese civilians not Hezbollah.

[regnaD kciN]

48. Osama must be laughing his ass off...

I mean, he probably expected the U.S. to overreact following 9/11 and do something that would drive Arabs and/or Muslims into the al-Qaeda fold. And, after some worrying moments when the U.S. seemed to be handling the Afghan situation properly, we wound up validating his suspicions by invading a country that had nothing to do with him, removing an old enemy of his from power and replacing him with what will almost certainly turn out to be an Islamic government, while simultaneously giving the U.S. a black eye with peoples around the world.

Osama probably expected that. He might have even expected the incident to drive America and Israel's hard-liners closer together, so that Bush would give a green light to Sharon to destroy the moderate Fatah element in the Palestinian Authority every time the not-in-the-Palestinian-Authority Hamas militia struck against Israel (which is a little like blowing up a police station in retaliation for every gang shooting that takes place in the precinct), thus paving the way for Hamas to take control of Palestine as well.

Like I said, ObL may have anticipated all of this. But, somehow, I doubt that even he foresaw that Bush's enabling of the hard-liners in the Israeli government (including those in Kadima who used to be good Likud foot soldiers) would result in a situation where the Lebanese government, renowned as the most moderate and pro-Western of any in the area, would be about to order its soldiers to fight alongside Hezbollah guerrillas against IDF troops.

I have to think that, in a cave somewhere along the Pakistani/Afghan border, ObL is listening to the news over shortwave and making like Meg Ryan in When Harry Met Sally... -- "Yes! YES!! YESSSSS!!!"

Mission accomplished, George. Mission accomplished. :grr:

[truth2power]

22. This is so sad. Aside from everything else..

it's going to drive the Lebanese people closer to Hezbollah and cause even more hatred toward Israel (as if they cared).

[High Plains]

24. Go on and try it, you stupid, bloody-minded fucks.

It worked so well last time.

[superconnected]

33. If only the countries of the mideast would ban together and stop israel

But then that of course would be WWIII.

Israel certianly deserves it though. Bombing countries because your soldiers get caught by the other side (they weren't kiddnapped), pretty much leads the expectation that they would get bomb in retaliation.

If only the retaliation against israel had stronger weapons and not those little tiny low range missles, I think Israel would learn a well needed lesson.

[donkeyotay]

37. I can criticize Israel with the best of them

but they don't need to be hit with missiles comparable to what they're firing at Lebanon. They need to open their hearts and have what used to be a majority of the country reassert their desire for peace. I don't want to blame all of Israel for having a crappy government no more than I want to be judged by the world for ours. Every one is getting madder and that plays right into neocon hands. We need mercy. Forgiveness. All those religious values everyone's been touting so much lately.

added on edit: Same it true for the US. The Right is cranking up again as if Iraq had not even happened. Instead of all the bloodlust they need to stop and ask themselves if there were any lessons learned.

[superconnected]

70. You're absolutely right.

Everyone should just stop.

[humbled_opinion]

51. Huh? Get your facts straight

Israel has been putting up with this crap from the Arabs for many years. Now that Iran wants the world stage they get their arm of Terror to act in agression.... Israel did everything that Lebanon, Egypt, Jordan, Syria wanted they gave back lands and they got laughed at. They culled and they got bombed and kidnapped.... How much blood is Israel supposed to give... No team effort going on here its all been one way.

[regnaD kciN]

57. Some statements should come with their own laugh track...

Israel did everything that Lebanon, Egypt, Jordan, Syria wanted they gave back lands

:rofl:

Of course...that's why we have the nation of Palestine on the West Bank and Gaza. :sarcasm:

Israel has given back nothing of the Palestinian lands seized in 1967, unless you want to count the charade of turning Gaza into the world's largest open-air prison camp (with Israel controlling all of its land, air, and sea borders) as "giving back" something.

The fact is that Israel reneged on each and every one of its committments under Oslo following Rabin's death, even during the lengthy period when the Palestinian Authority was working closely with Mossad and, in even the latter's opinion, was effective at shutting down terrorism and providing for Israel's security. That's why, when the time for "final status" talks rolled around, Israel had only carried out 1 1/2 phases of the three-phase withdrawal promised by the Oslo accords...and never got around to completing it after that, despite prior promises to do so. And the current "unilateral separation" policy does not, in fact, divide the two peoples -- it only cements an arrangement where, as a member of the previous Sharon government noted with approval, "they are there, while we are here and there."

Talking about how Israel has "done whatever was asked of them" is a little like praising George Bush for continuing the social progress of "New Deal" liberalism. :eyes:

[manic expression]

74. What? Get a grip

No, Israel has NOT been putting up with any "crap" from anyone. Israel has constantly and consistently oppressed, evicted, murdered and injured entire peoples.

Specify what "crap" the "Arabs" have done, because you have shown NO facts at all.

Israel did NOTHING Lebanon, Egypt, Jordan, Syria or anyone else wanted. Do you know ANYTHING about the history of the region? Israel has not yielded its occupied territories, and its Gaza "pullout" was basically turning it into a siege. Israel has bombed schools and homes in Gaza, as well as murdering children in cold blood. Hamas held a ceasefire practically to perfection, even when Israel was shooting girls down, and after all that Israel SHELLS A FAMILY AT A BEACH PICNIC!

Israel is giving only oppression and injustice. They murder and steal at their whim with no regard for sanity or reason. The wrongdoing is quite one way, and Israel is at fault.

[MadHound]

53. Sadly I think that this is inevitable

With Bushco keeping American clout from being wielded to stop the madness, Israel feels free to cry havoc and slip the dogs of war. I wake up this morning to hear that even more Israeli reserves are being called up, and Israel continues its two prong attack on Gaza and Lebanon.

With no feelings of restraint, Israel feels free to create a wasteland in these two countries, and then they will call it peace. Meanwhile Bushco stands back and cheers them on, hoping that Syria and Iran finally feel morally compelled to intervene, thus providing Bushco with the fig leaf of an excuse they need to invade Syria and Iran, thus fulfilling all of their PNAC dreams. Meanwhile the fundies over at Rapture Ready writhe and moan and get their hair done, convinced that their time is nigh.

Disgusting, just fucking disgusting. Finding joy in the fact that ever more innocent blood is being spilled. What has become of this country and the world?

[DoYouEverWonder]

58. While Bush and his Rapture Ready Bushbots

are waiting ecstatically for all the Jews and Arabs to kill each other and destroy the Temple Mount. Only then can their version of Jesus return.

The Israelis don't get it. They are being led to the slaughter too.

That is why Bush ate a roasted pig on the first day. It was in celebration.

[plasticsundance]

61. Let's take a look from a leftist Lebanese ... shall we?

AS’AD ABUKHALIL: Well, I mean, there are at least three prisoners that we know of. The longest serving one is a Lebanese Druze, in fact, who in the 1970s joined a Palestinian organization, because he was, like many Lebanese at the time, enthusiastic in lending out support for the Palestinians. The brother of this one, Samir Quntar, is now head of a movement that tries to bring attention to the plight of his brother. He is not a member of Hezbollah. He is a leftist, and I met him in the last trip. And his cause is well known all around Lebanon.

But it is not only about that. I mean, this is why so many people like me in the Arab world level charges of racism at many in the West, including on the left, because they seem to subscribe to the terminology, as I think your guest does, of the prevailing governments of the West, in terms of having more weight given to the frustration, to the so-called anguish of Israeli soldiers, than to the suffering of the civilian populations in Gaza and in Lebanon. When we speak about these two Israeli soldiers -- and I will not name them because I’m afraid of giving credence to the propaganda of Israel, by which all those Israeli human lives are more valuable than Arab human lives -- we should speak also about the entire nations that are held in captivity, whether it’s in Gaza or whether it’s in Lebanon today.

I don't think Israel has an intention of launching any ground troops into Lebanon, because they prefer to just bomb the hell out of Lebanon from there, and they are cutting all these bridges and roads so that, I think, rules out any possibility of invasion. And notice many people, in fact, including you, Amy, this morning, I’m afraid, you used the word “entrance,” about whether Israel will enter Lebanon. I mean, countries invade other countries, they don't enter. I mean, when Hitler went to Poland, he invaded Poland, he did not enter it. So we have to be careful about the language we use lest it lends propaganda credence to the aggressor.

I also want to say, so, for the Lebanese, there are the issues of the 10,000 Palestinian prisoners held without trial by Israel, the fact that Israel refused to release those prisoners -- and I must say as somebody who studies the various political movements of the region, Hassan Nasrallah, five months ago, gave a speech and he warned, he said, “If those prisoners are not released, we will try to get an Israeli soldier.” I mean, he made it very clear. And if anybody believes that Israel spontaneously improvised an invasion and bombing of the country that we are witnessing today is somebody who absolutely doesn't know anything about the nature of policymaking inside Israel.

So at this point, any language, it seems to me, that speaks about the so-called cycle of violence, like the Department of State terminology and so on, is losing an opportunity to point the finger at the party that is doing much of the violence and much of the killing, the one that is committing this aggression. The United States is not sitting idly by. The United States is not washing its hand. Its hands are dipped in the blood of the civilians of Lebanon. The United States is supporting wholeheartedly what’s going on. The footage of the children being killed in Tyre, the massacre in Marwahin, in the name of the U.S. government and many in the U.S. media, is justified self-defense.

These will have long scars. People are going to exact revenge. I mean, I know that in America we always think that Israel is the only one that is entitled to take revenge. I can guarantee you -- I mean, Chris Hedges at least admitted that Hezbollah was born within the womb, so to speak, of the Israeli invasion of 1982. It didn't exist prior to that. I guarantee you a new organization is going to be born out of the agony of the Lebanese population, and they will certainly exact revenge, against Israel, against America and against all those who supported this aggression, and when that occurs, the American population, as always, and the media will say in innocence and wonder yet again, “Why do they hate us? What have we done to them?”

AS’AD ABUKHALIL: Well, yes, I have returned from Lebanon only a week ago or less, and I have met and interviewed a whole number of people, including the leader of Hezbollah, Hassan Nasrallah. And I must confess to you that, no, there was nothing in the air about what was coming, and that is because these events were not planted in Lebanon and did not originate inside the country, but outside. I must begin by dissenting by the comments of Chris Hedges, and this is one of the frustrating things watching these events here in the United States, and I don't want to talk anything about the U.S. government or about the mainstream media. I want to talk about progressives and their stances, people like The Nation magazine's editorial, about the words of Chris Hedges this morning.

He talks about the death of the peace process. No, no, no. This is not because the peace process was not ongoing. This is the peace process, Mr. Hedges. This is part of what the United States has been doing since the beginning of the so-called peace process, to subcontract the subjugation of the Arabs and all those who defend against Israeli occupation in the area. I mean, he speaks about the spiral of violence, extremists on both sides. All this language is always intended to camouflage and hide and disguise the aggressor, the nature of the aggressor.

Let me put the context for this audience here, because a lot of people have been analyzing this conflict in terms of an outside conspiracy. On the right, you have people like George W. Bush, among others, blaming it all on Iran. On the left, you have people like Robert Fisk, who believe this is all about a Syrian conspiracy. Yet the truth resides in an article yesterday by Robin Wright in the Washington Post. If there is a conspiracy in all of this, it is an American, Israeli, Saudi conspiracy that has been in planning for years in order to disarm Hezbollah as part of the 1559 United Nations Security Council resolution, and we are seeing the implementation of that resolution by force.

But we have to remind the audience about something: how Israel propaganda doesn't get updated. In 1982, I barely survived an Israeli invasion of the country. Back then, the Israelis were saying, “We are not against Lebanon. We just want to expel the PLO out of Lebanon.” Now, they are saying the same, with one difference: Hezbollah is the Lebanese population here. I am from South Lebanon. I tell you that the entire population of South Lebanon stands behind Hezbollah, whether you like it or not. My 14-year-old nephew has been raised by secular leftists, like my family is, and yet he is now a passionate, enthusiastic supporter of Hezbollah. So when Israel said they want to drive them away from South Lebanon, what are they going to do? We’re talking about extermination of them?

And for people who talk about the beginning of this in the arrest and capture of these two Israeli occupation soldiers, we have to remember Israel has not been sitting idly by. Israel has been violating Lebanese sovereignty for the last several years, long after its so-called partial withdrawal from South Lebanon in May of 2000. Israel violates Lebanese earth space. They kidnap shepherds and fishermen from the area where I come from, which is Tyre, at will. Some of these fishermen never come, some of them are killed. Plus, there are demands that all the Lebanese have, including the release of Lebanese prisoners held in Israeli jail, the fact that Israel has refused over the last several years all pressures and demands to give Lebanon, through the United Nations, a list of the 400,000 land mines that Israel has planted during its occupation in that region.

And when people on the left, like the editorial of The Nation magazine this week, an awful editorial, when they speak about -- as if this is about the ideology of Hezbollah. No, when we leftists speak about what’s going on, it is not out of sympathy for the ideology of Hezbollah. First of all, Israel is not launching a war on the ideology of Hezbollah. It is launching a war, as Rania put it very eloquently, on the whole civilian population of Lebanon. This is exactly what we are talking about.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/07/17/1423257">Hezbollah, the United States and the Context Behind Israel's Offensive on Lebanon

[ckramer]

66. Looks like Israel is trying getting himself a Iraq.

Make sure the taxpayers money not being spent on that project.

[dmosh42]

73. Do U think it matters to Israel what the world thinks?

Going back to the 50s and Israel's fight with the Egyptians, when it got down to doing what had to be done, they made the move regardless of public opinion. The Israelis are faced with a surrounding Islamic fundamentalism which they see as building stockpiles of weapons to be used against them. So, as our past history shows, they had a plan and will follow it to what they see as an objective. I'm not saying if it's right or wrong, but it doesn't surprise me. When Iran makes those statements from their PM, they had best be ready to back it up.