Invaders test ground defenses in South

[bemildred]

BEIRUT: Israel has opened a 60-kilometer front along the southern Lebanese border, from Naqoura to Majidiyeh, a Lebanese security source said on Thursday. "This front is to estimate Hizbullah's retaliation strength on the ground," the source said. "The fighting zone is inside Lebanese territory, which the UN itself has marked and which Israel agrees is Lebanese."

As The Daily Star went to press, three Israeli bombs fell on the southern suburbs of the capital and additional ordnance hit the northern city of Baalbek, leaving both areas ablaze. No casualty count was available.

Although up to now Israel has only hinted that it might undertake a full-scale invasion of Lebanon, on Thursday its tanks in fact attempted to cross the UN-demarcated Blue Line.

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A separate Hizbullah statement said nine Israeli soldiers died in a Hizbullah ambush Thursday afternoon.

Daily Star

[The Magistrate]

1. Given Israel's Stated Objectives, Sir

This pretty much has to be done. For better or worse, what they are trying to achieve simply cannot be done solely by aircraft and artillery: people have to actually poke about in the towns and fields....

[bemildred]

4. I think it is folly, Sir.

But what you say is true, the bombing will not do the job, and it is certainly true one may expect the IDF to give a good account of themselves, they have the firepower. Hizbullah is not an organism that may be killed like cow, however. It would be interesting if they managed to kill Nasrallah.

[The Magistrate]

5. Folly It May Well Prove, My Friend

But as you know, once these things commence, they have their own logics, that sweep along those claiming to be in control.

[bemildred]

6. As one may already see.

The "sweeping along" part, I mean.

[kenny blankenship]

9. Which objective?

the objective of finding mobile rocket launchers that won't be left behind?
Or the objective of persuading the Shia enclave of southern Lebanon to leave their homes and not come back?

[The Magistrate]

10. The Objective, Sir

Of neutralizing Hezbollah's capability for offensive action across the northern border of Israel, chiefly by rocket attack, which has been routine for a while. It is not the launchers that are the objective, but the munitions themselves, which are at least thought by the Israelis to be cached mostly within twenty miles or so of the border. Unearthing them to carry them north will expose them, just as infantry will find them if they are not moved. Secondary objectives include killing as many Hezbollah militants as can be managed, and destroying defensive works erected in the area, and any facilities maintained by the organization to any purpose.

[kenny blankenship]

11. But what does killing a bunch of civilians have to do with that?

You don't really think Israel believes blowing up some ammo dumps will make them safe do you?

[The Magistrate]

12. What Is Destroyed In Place, Sir, Will Not Soar Across The Border

It may be replenished, of course, at a later date, but that is problem to be dealt with then.

The Israelis are attempting to destroy Hezbollah facilities and to paralyze the communications in the country, to freeze their targets in place and hamper re-supply. It is in the nature of things that people not involved in the conflict will be harmed thereby, and also in the nature of things that some of the information guiding Israeli targetting decisions is faulty. It really cannot be avoided so long as there are people committed to resolving disputes by violence able to act on that resolve.

[kenny blankenship]

13. 500,000+ refugees stumbling on foot out of the area is objective , sir

and more if possible. If possible never to return... Don't tell me Israel would never intentionally cause civilian casualties and refugees. Israel well knows that the arms Hezbollah has can be easily replenished. They also know that they are extremely ineffectual against their state. What is vital however, to any guerilla resistance group are not their arms but the people they come from. Eventually occupiers turn their attentions from reducing arms to reducing the troublesome population to a state of helpless misery. America eventually learned what Ho Chi Minh meant when he compared his people to a sea, and then they acted accordingly:
"We burned down the thatched huts, starting the blaze with Ronson and Zippo lighters," (Colin) Powell recalled. "Why were we torching houses and destroying crops? Ho Chi Minh had said the people were like the sea in which his guerrillas swam. ... We tried to solve the problem by making the whole sea uninhabitable.
The massacre was not incidental to the mission, the massacre was the mission. Israel pursues the same strategy in dealing with the Palestinians--and in dealing with the Lebanese too when any of them dare to stand up in sympathy with the Palestinians. The name for this strategy in warcrimes tribunals is collective punishment.

[The Magistrate]

14. That Is A By-Product, Sir

Certainly a deplorable one, but not the aim of the exercise.

[kenny blankenship]

15. I thought you were smarter than that.

[DELUSIONAL]

2. Thanks for the update

crossing the UN ... Blue line -- isn't this some sort of violation of some sort of UN rule or something??

Oh well -- just one more of several dozen UN resolutions and whatever that Israel will ignore.


I don't suppose that this area has farms -- or crops or animals . . . or anything useful to ordinary citizens.

[Spazito]

3. If it does have farms, etc, it won't for long nor, if the past is to be

believed, will it be considered Lebanon's land regardless of how many resolutions the US might allow the UN to pass given Israel ignores resolutions on a regular basis.

Until the UN suspends the US right to veto on this issue due to it's direct participation in arming Israel, nothing, nothing will be done to resolve this issue or any fair resolution on the whole of the Middle East crisis because it is not in the interests of the US and, it seems, Israel.

[daleo]

7. I suspect the IDF will take a lot of casualties

If they are really serious about annihilating Hezbollah. It may well be a war of attrition, with casualties in the thousands. One hopes that the toll on civilian life will go down, but who knows?

[bemildred]

8. A bloody mess, I would think. nt

[bemildred]

16. Thousands of IDF troops operating in S. Lebanon

Two IDF soldiers were killed and six others were wounded in heavy clashes with Hezbollah just inside south Lebanon, close to Moshav Avivim, on Thursday afternoon.

Hezbollah fired mortar shells in the area in effort to disrupt the rescue of the wounded. The IDF believes that several Hezbollah guerillas were killed in the close-quarter confrontation.

Four soldiers were injured late Thursday night when two Apache helicopters collided in northern Israel, near Kiryat Shmona.

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Thousands of Israeli troops are operating in south Lebanon where they are targetting Hezbollah positions. Among their activities, they are searching for tunnels dug by Hezbollah militants. According to the army, Hezbollah fighters have taken refuge inside these tunnels - often dug under homes in villages - along with their rockets, and that they occasionally emerge to fire one into Israel.

Now where did they get that idea from? I know I've heard of guerillas doing that before somewhere ...

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/740874.html