Two Israeli Apache helicopters crash into each other over northern Israel

[Oreo]

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13533944,00.html
Two Israeli soldiers were killed in a gun battle with Hizbollah fighters on the Lebanese border - while a crash involving two helicopters has caused more casualties.

The helicopter crash, involving two Apache aircraft, happened at Ramat Naftali, six miles from the border. Five people are thought to have been injured.

Earlier, the Israeli military said two of its soldiers had died in a fierce gun battle inside the Lebanese border. It said several Hizbollah fighters had been killed.

Troops have been crossing the border into Lebanon to look for tunnels and weapons after warning residents in a 20-mile radius to leave their homes. Two were killed in an ambush on Wednesday.


(initial post)
On CNN.com No link yet
Two Israeli Apache helicopters crash into each other over northern Israel, the IDF says, adding there are casualties.

Haaretz: http://www.haaretz.com/
01:02 Two IAF Apache helicopters collide near Kiryat Shmona (Haaretz)

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Behind the Aegis]

2. .

:eyes:

[Name removed]

3. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ShortnFiery]

4. Self Delete

[OKNancy]

5. please provide a link as soon as possible

You have one hour to edit the post.

Thanks
OKNancy
LBN moderator

[Oreo]

7. Working on it

no stories yet.

Both sites have the headline on their homepage.

[OKNancy]

8. thanks!

we appreciate you watching for it.

[uppityperson]

6. wow, doesn't take many posts for the fighting here to start, does it?

or would that be snarking? I'm not quite sure of the correct term.

[NoodleyAppendage]

9. Awww, that's too bad. War is hell. Those who live by the sword...

I feel sorry for family members of those who were killed, but quite frankly the blood of these soldiers is on the hands of their government. War was a CHOICE, not a mandate.

J

[NaturalHigh]

44. Do your sentiments also apply...

to Hezbollah terrorists who kill innocent civilians only to Israelis?

[NoodleyAppendage]

55. I won't even dignify that with a response. n/t

j

[muriel_volestrangler]

10. 5 thought injured ,according to Sky News

The helicopter crash, involving two Apache aircraft, happened at Ramat Naftali, six miles from the border. Five people are thought to have been injured.

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13533944,00.html

[The Stranger]

14. Helicopter crashes are difficult to survive.

Five injured sounds a bit conservative.

[Sanity Claws]

11. Israeli Apache?

Doesn't this grate on your nerves? Apache is obviously an American term. (Apologies to Native Americans). Doesn't the very name of these helicopters tell the world that Israel is a proxy for the US? Actually, maybe we've lost contol and perhaps it would be more accurate that US is a proxy for Israel. I'm sick of it.

[uppityperson]

12. Yes, and I also hate naming things after nations.

Dakota, Apache, give me a break. I am flying the latest version of the German! Like my car, it is a Liberian. My child is named Costa Rica! bah.

[daleo]

15. Especially conquered nations

The Apache nation was essentially militarily conquered by the U.S. military. To name weaponry after them seems more like an insult than a compliment, an cultural appropriation I think the term is. I am sure some people will claim it was a compliment to their warrior spirit, though.

[leftchick]

17. yes and their A 16 s as well. Who the hell else has A16s?

all of their shit is from us. Pretty fucking disgusting to be subsidizing even more killing. :puke:

[Sanity Claws]

18. That's exactly my point

Even the names of Israel's weaponry reveals to the world how much the US is behind this abomination. I want to cry.

[Pavulon]

21. Other side..

small arms


rockets..


mines


rpg



grenades


HE

[Biernuts]

37. Iran has almost 80 F-14s, Another US Proxy? n/t

[theanarch]

48. no...

...F-14's are left-over junk from when the Shah was in power (late 1960's through mid-1980's), and he was our proxy; formidable enough weapon against people who can't shoot back (like Kurds), but utterly antiquated and out-classed by the newer death toys (F-16's, F-116's, etc). Rather like Iraq's Soviet-era armor, deadly enough against civilians and rag-tag resistance groups, but quite useless against more modern tanks, etc.

[harun]

46. F16's and Apache's

The whole world knows it but no politicians can ever talk about it. But at least these honorable politicians in the house voted against the "Israel should kill bill" (http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2006/roll391.xml):

---- NAYS 8 ---
Abercrombie
Conyers
Dingell
Kilpatrick (MI)
McDermott
Paul
Rahall
Stark

---- ANSWERED “PRESENT” 4 ---
Kaptur
Kucinich
Lee
Waters

For the nays I can only say :yourock:. Tremendous courage in the face of intimidation.

[Drum]

49. "Answered present"

now that's real guts!

[Radioactive]

13. It was Iran!!!!!

Or maybe North Korea?

[leesa]

16. Oh, ain't that a shame. Maybe they should stop their aggression.

[MrPrax]

19. Oh so sad...

Looks like Israel is having a harder time fighting things that fight back, than it does bombing airport fuel dumps or civillian houses...but cracks in the facade look to be forming

ANALYSIS: Hezbollah is still showing no signs of breaking

It was a bad news day. In the morning, Israeli forces in Lebanon clashed with Hezbollah near Avivim. Two soldiers were killed. In the afternoon, Hezbollah began to shell the entire northern region heavily. Scores of Katyusha rockets were fired and two children from Nazareth were killed. For eight days, the Israel Defense Forces has been pounding Lebanon and dropping thousands of tons of bombs on it, yet Hezbollah remains the same intransigent rival as before. It is showing no signs of breaking.

The Israeli detail, operating in an especially entangled area in the former buffer zone, intended to take out Katyusha launchers. But the Hezbollah unit responsible for most of the short-range rocket fire from South Lebanon was not sufficiently harmed.

The air force's first assault last week, aimed at long-range rockets in central Lebanon, caused considerable damage. Now the army is conducting a series of small ground operations to trace launchers in the thicket close to the border. The soldiers in the Maroun Ras area found a compound in a forest, complete with weapons bunkers, shelters and launchers that had been prepared a long time in advance. From here, rockets were launched at Safed, Ma'alot and the Miron Air Force base. The Hezbollah group hiding there surprised the IDF force and in the close-range fire exchange, two Israeli soldiers and two Hezbollah members were killed.

This incident illustrates three things. First, that like the IDF, Hezbollah too has been preparing for this confrontation for six years; second, that not everything can be done from the air. Third, that such a ground operation involves quite a few casualties and the government will have to consider this fact if it decides on a more massive invasion in the future.

Haaretz

[Pavulon]

22. Guess it is time to put

boots on the ground?

[daleo]

23. The fight seems to be pretty even on the ground

I wonder if Israelis want to risk having hundreds of coffins come back from northern Lebanon again.

[Pavulon]

27. From past history

I would bet on it.

[Moochy]

45. Maybe they could just outlaw the image of coffins of soldiers

it's done wonders here for bunnypants!

[MrPrax]

24. That's the problem...

Israel has been trying to put boots on the ground, but they keep getting rebuffed -- so they are stuck with an impotent air war and Olmert is too afraid of the political costs of the high casualities and the inevitable humilation of the IDF.

But let's not dwell on the fact that this attack on Lebanon might have been done out of sheer political impulse -- wasn't really planned, no real intel or support, just political chutzpah from a weak Kadima leader -- and the IDF will pay the same price as US soldiers in Iraq.

Can Israel really stand being defeat AGAIN by Hezbullah? LOL

[Pavulon]

28. Restraint

is the only reason this is going the way it is. Check up on Egypt's luck in the Sinai, not so good.
Israel can continue to scale up air and men. men backed by close air and 155.

They have proven they are willing (by past history)to lay waste to grids, without concern for their content.

[High Plains]

35. You have a funny definition of restraint.

Yeah, I know Israel could nuke the whole neighborhood, but what it is doing to Lebanon could hardly be described as "restrained."

As for boots on the ground, well, that worked so well the last time around, didn't it? Ya wanna go Hezbollah Version 2.0 in another few years? Or would you prefer to just find some sort of final solution to Lebanon's Shiite population?

[Pavulon]

39. No Nukes

just more bombs. Lots more. An f15 carries more bombs than an b17 or b25 did. We managed to destroy cities with those. I think Israel could manage the same 60 years later.

They left on their own. They are quite capable of going in, kill people and break up the neighborhood, starting another civil war, and leave. Leave on their own.

[saigon68]

56. Round up all the Isalmics and put them behind barbed wire

I hear they even have trains to accomplish the feat.

</SARCASM>

[Binka]

57. KILL KILL KILL The Blood Lust Here Is Sickening

The 101 arm chair brigade sure like the death and mayhem.

[saigon68]

58. They sure do

Its starting to look like a race war of genocide

[PATRICK]

32. RW agenda and reality

Massive power, a great "plan", but foreseeable drawbacks create the immoveable mountain. The same as Iraq. But the hand, that all powerful hand planning for a long time, will not relaese its grip inside the jar.

The primal fallacy of trusting the solutions of RW extremists in any situation is being born out. You create smarter enemies and in ignoring the MAJORITY peaceful desires of the main population you lose everything by alienating the masses even more effectively than terrorist fear can herd them into conflicts. The consequences of arrogance, then denial, then desperation are also predictable and worse will be coming unless the sane majority reexert control. The Israeli people trapped in crisis mode cannot. It would be a Biblical miracle if they could.

Israel's long term problem, made worse by the intractable enmity of the Arab nations plus extremist factions, is that their single homeland posit is not viable. A pluralistic society leading to the loss of the religious state- or worse- is in the math. The solution was always peaceful international help, but there they are outnumbered by many Islamic homeland nations and the often untrustowrthy, venal motives of certain US factions. Hitler destroyed the possibility of peace and compromise. They thought he was dead and that central reactionary problem has been ignored, often with blackly absurd results bleeding in his legacy.

A study of history shows that- without divine intervention- the Jewish theocratic state is screwed. They have played with and against world allies and enemies in the wrong way- as a reaction to recent polarization by the Nazis who deliberately also set up Arab forces against them. It is impossible to step back and most of their views are as legitimate and as vital as any other small nation. But an allegiance with the American RW has been utterly perilous and morally degrading. This gaffe is the new aspect of this several decade tragedy, sitting down comfortably at Crawford, cheering on the slaughter.

While it is inevitable the current drama must be all consuming, NEVER let your focus away from the one factor that guarantees horror, bad results for all parties and manipulation of problems they choose not to deal with- our precious Coup leaders. It is for them these useless spectacles are performed and only their ends are forwarded. In truth the whole world must work hard on the ME problem. It is humanity's signatory political and moral dilemma.

[ShortnFiery]

40. Very well put Patrick ...

You have a gift for expressing yourself in a sound, balanced and compassionate way.

Kudos! :applause: :hi:

[MrPrax]

41. Great Post...

by obviously someone who is looking a little beyond the 'current events' and looking into probable outcomes.

One thing I would quibble with, is that if you look at the ME -- the whole place is full of US client states that do exactly what the US tells them to do. The nation's with the biggest beef against Israel are it's neighbours...two of which are US client states anyway (Jordan and Egypt).

The 'threat' to Israel is really quite slight, if you think about it and as you rightly point out, it makes RW solutions even more likely to never solve the problem, but keep the crisis going for another decade as Israel slowly withers. These days the only really good thing they can find is misquoting the Iranian PM -- everywhere else, nada.

The other day, Israel bragged about 250 emgires showing up for their 'new' lives in Israel...even Olmert was there to welcome them! In the old days, the airport was full of Jews happy to be in the homeland...now they are leaving in droves and Israel can't replace them.

But they don't like the arabs -- so what are they going to do in the long run...fanaticism can only get you so far and that is why Israel is different than it was...most of the moderates have given up and ONLY the fanatics are left.

The RW in the US and Israel have simply formed into a groupthink mentality where everything becomes a self-fulfilling genocidal response to 'terrorists'. The RW lobby has exported the same 'fear' to the US in the post-9/11 climate and it has been used to the same effect...allow the RW to re-model an entire society under an authoritarian 'war economy' where the world is written off as 'hostile'. Of course it's self-fulfilling as this type of renovation and unrestrained violence in protection of corporate expansion is going to be opposed by many, both domestically and internationally.

It's a slippery slope where anyone can be a 'terrorist' if they speak out against the obvious.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pavulon]

26. I appreciate a man (or woman) with the balls

to pick a side. You have yours, I have mine. dead is dead. shitty rocket or hellfire missile will do the job.

[VegasWolf]

29. They are reaping what they sow. nt

[Pavulon]

30. "Unforgiven"

We all have it coming, Kid..

[VegasWolf]

34. True, unfortunately though. nt

[TankLV]

31. I am disgusted by all these replys so far.

You all sicken me.

That, coupled with rooting for the TERRORISTS.

Shameful.

Simply shameful.

[Canuckistanian]

33. Two less killing machines - Good!

You know, war would be much more just if they went back to swords, spears and bows.

No more "push-button" death done from a comfortable air-conditioned seat.

[Pavulon]

36. Sorry

We can exterminate the human race from South Dakota and the ocean..

It is a war, a proxy war, but a war none the less. Iran>hamasbulla US/europe>Israel.

Both sides field an arsenal of killing machines.

BTW we shot off a Minuteman 3 today. Unlike the NK device it hit its target.


Trident D5 1500MT online

Minuteman unknown thousands of mt online.

Left out the B2 and f117 that can drop the venerable b61 with no notice anywhere on the globe.

[High Plains]

47. Keep your war masturbation fantasies out of my state. Thank you.

[Biernuts]

38. Comfortable? You can sure tell who has never been in one. n/t

[IndianaGreen]

42. Israel spent 18 miserable years in Southern Lebanon in a wasteful

occupation. I sure hope that Israel decides not to repeat that mistake and ends hostilities before more people have to die.

[Pavulon]

43. Hopefully

a return will be negotiated for the soldiers kidnapped in near simultaneous cross border raids.

One does not have to occupy to leave scorched earth.

This, like most wars, is about money and power.

hamas got its money cut off, iran wants a bomb. Europe is concerned about that.

Hence a proxy war.

[Drum]

50. Hmmm...maybe "God" isn't on ANYone's side....nt

[IndianaGreen]

51. Only fools believe that "Gott Mit Uns" (God with us!)

"O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle – be Thou near them! With them, in spirit, we also go forth from the sweet peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe. O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with their little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it – for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen.

The War Prayer
by Mark Twain

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/twain1.html

[Drum]

52. That's my avatar!

Thanks very much for that quotation, IndianaGreen...a gift for finding the right thing at the right time.

I 'preciate that!

[IndianaGreen]

53. You are welcome, Drum!

Mark Twain lowered the boom on the phony religionists of his day. We could certainly use him today!

[Drum]

54. without irony: Amen! nt

[Moderator]

59. Lock

off topic posts, flames, circular arguments, rehashing that gets nowhere, uncivil comments, no longer breaking news.