Russia signs $1bln aircraft contract with Venezuela-Ivanov

[ECH1969]

Russia has signed a contract on supplies of military planes and helicopters to Venezuela worth over $1 billion, the defense minister said Friday.

Sergei Ivanov said 30 Su-30 Flanker air-superiority fighters and 30 helicopters would be supplied to Venezuela.

The Russian Su-30 Flankers will replace a Venezuelan contingent of U.S. F-16 multi-role fighters after Washington imposed an embargo on arms sales to the country May 15, which it says poses a threat to regional stability.

Oil-rich Venezuela is a major purchaser of Russian weapons and hardware. In late 2004, the two countries signed a $54 million contract for the supply of 100,000 automatic rifles. In June this year, the outspoken Chavez said he planned to build a plant to make Kalashnikov rifles and cartridges in the country.

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20060721/51667738.html

[goforit]

1. Tables are being set. Thanks Bush!

This is unbelievable!

[Retired AF Dem]

2. I don't know about you

but I would never set foot upon a Russian made aircraft.

[SIU_Blue]

4. Why?

Many consider the SU-30 to be superior to the F-16, as it is (much) faster and carries a larger payload. The only real drawback is that it isn't as meneuverable (being bigger all around).

If you are talking about safety issues, the build of most russian-made aircraft is as good as U.S. built aircraft, the safety issues are a result of a lack of money for proper upkeep and routine maintenance.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

5. I was under the impression...

that they're a lot sturdier than the American war planes.

[Flaxbee]

81. the maintenance policy used to be (probably still is)

that the chief mechanic doing post-flight maintenance had to fly on the plane's next journey. Good incentive for excellent work.

Russian planes are great. Sounds like you're suffering from too much Cold War propaganda.

[MGD]

3. And a great big thank you to our Russian allies

who never miss an opportunity to sell weapons to our enemies. Same old shit.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

6. Venezuelans are our enemies?

News to me.

[Vidar]

9. Enemies of our republican dictator.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

10. Then they're friends of mine.

[Vidar]

29. Couldn't have said it better.

[Threedifferentones]

75. Putin and every other Russian leader I have ever heard of

is and were power hungry assholes on the order of GWB or greater. People like that tend to make bad friends.

[Vidar]

78. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend." No, I don't want Putin for president

[MGD]

14. It wouldn't be Bush that those SU-30s would be shooting at

it would be US airmen.

[Mandate My Ass]

16. It would be Bush who'd sent them

In which case it would be in defense of his country.

[MGD]

18. Bush will be long gone by the time those fighter jets make it to Venezuela

[Mandate My Ass]

20. wha?

:crazy:

[Flanker]

22. Actually they might get here by the end of the year

Details to surface.

[MGD]

24. Oh well then, I'm sure Bush will use his remaining tenure to invade

Venezuela then and Hugo's SU-30s will be perfectly justified. looks like he'll get them just in time too...whooo that was close Hugo.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

34. It's just a precaution.

maybe Jeb has plans on running.

[BrotherBuzz]

32. I think the enemy on the ground will have the most concern about the SU-30

It is a formidable multi-role fighter aircraft.

[Vidar]

35. US airmen sent illegally to attack Venezuela. I'll mourn them

as I do our troops in our other illegal wars.

[MGD]

40. I'm sure you will. nt

[MGD]

11. While the USA may not consider Venezuela to be an enemy

the leader of Venezuela has mede it clear time after time that he considers the USA to be his enemy.

[Mandate My Ass]

13. after the US supported an illegal coup against him

and did everything it could to try to legitimize his usurper.

I'd have hard feelings too. He considers the Bush administration to be his enemy. He certainly goes out of his way to help poor Americans not freeze to death.

[Pastiche423]

26. Is it not true

that not only did the U.S. government support the coup but actively aided it?

Something about a CIA plane on the runway...

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

15. Is that why he donated heating oil to poor Americans?

That's certainly more than Bush did for Americans.

[gula]

17. How ironic

Here you are doing exactly what so many USians accuse us "aliens" of doing, i.e. not making a distinction between the gouvernment and the people. Given Chavez's actions such as providing cheaper heating oil to poor USians, I believe that he knows the difference only too well.

[Judi Lynn]

21. Clearly, unmistakably wrong.

Why not turn to one of your resources and bring DU the evidence it provides that Hugo Chavez view the U.S. as a country his enemy.

DU's Venezuela news readers would be most concerned with seeing it.

[High Plains]

28. He considers the Bush administration to be a foe.

He has reason.

Are you sure you're on the right board?

[MGD]

37. I give less than a flying fuck about about Chavez actually

He is a piss ant little nothing whose existence or lack of existence is inconsequential to me. My original point, before the attack of the killer straw men began, was about our supposed Russian allies doing things that are very un-ally like of them.
Incidentally, I wasn't aware that unwavering support for South American dictators who happen to dislike our current administration was a prerequisite for voting Democrat or, is that one of those "progressive ideals" I hear so much about?

[lumpy]

45. Why the hate against Chavez?

The Venezuelans hardly consider him a pissante.

[Rex]

50. or a dictator.

:eyes:

[lumpy]

60. Bush is the closest we have ever had

to being a dictator. Dictator has become a word that is used very loosely to describe anyone that is not in stride with our wanna'be dictator. Venezuela has elections just like the US does. Following Bush's disdain with Chavez is playing right in Bush's desire to topple Chavez for Venezuelan oil fields.

[ThomCat]

55. You're just dodging now.

Your little rant shows that this is important to you. And nobody posted a straw man argument, just facts and relevant questions.

He's not our enemy and never was. Our government has tried to overthrow him because he's a populist and doesn't represent American corporate interests. We have threatened his country, and he has a legitimate sovereign need to have an army and air force.

It's that simple.

Can you post any facts or do you like like to throw tantrums?

[lumpy]

63. You are right and to the point re:

"He's not our enemy and never was. Our government has tried to overthrow him because he's a populist and doesn't represent American corporate interests. We have threatened his country, and he has a legitimate sovereign need to have an army and air force". Quote TomCat

[ThomCat]

71. Thank you.

:hi:

[MGD]

64. My original argument was about Russia selling weapons to countries

under US arms embargoes. It had nothing to do with whether Hugo Chavez is or isn't a friend of the US. You and others have chosen to make it about Hugo Chavez. You have cherry picked elements of my argument that weren't really relevant to my point and, in so doing, have thrown up an obvious straw man. It's that simple. And I wouldn't expect things like facts to influence the single-minded and hate filled opinions espoused by the "progressives" in this thread.

[ThomCat]

68. Last refuge of someone who doesn't know how to debate:

change the terms of the debate.

1. The US refuses to sell him military hardware. That has nothing to do with Russia. They are not bound by our military decisions. They're just doing business.

2. You implied heavily that Russia was arming our enemy. You made no distinction between Venezuella and Chavez, and you jumped on mentions of Chavez. So your argument very clearly was that Chavez is our enemy. People have asked you for any evidence of this, and you have produced nothing but tap-dancing.

3. I haven't cherry picked elements of your argument. There haven't been enough elements to try being selective. To be quite honest, you don't have much to say. Though you seem to like to say it over and over and over again.

4. You clearly don't even know what a straw man argument is. And your attempt to blame others for using one is clearly an attempt to create a distraction or change the subject.

Are you done now?

[dionysus]

80. you sir, are a troll on the wrong board

your sentiments aren't popular here

[Spazito]

7. Venezuela is an enemy of the US???? I didn't see their name on

the "axis of evil" list nor on any "terra-ist list", I guess I must have missed it. Do you have the list naming Venezuela handy, I would love to see it!

Oh, and I can't help but wonder why some US states would take help from Venezuela to help reduce the heating costs for their citizens if Venezuela is an enemy of the US or why the US buys oil, lots of oil, from their enemy, could you explain that too?

[MGD]

12. Post #11

[Spazito]

19. Actually that is incorrect, he has declared bush a dangerous criminal

while making it very clear he is not talking about the people of the US, indeed, he has aided the poor in some states by making available low cost oil so they can heat their homes, etc.

Do you think bush IS the United States and so everything bush has done should also be seen as being done by the US public? I ask that because that is also the position of right wing nuts which, I know, democrats, progressive do not believe that for one second.

[MGD]

23. well, just for starters

there are individuals participating in this very discussion who fail to make a distinction between the government of the US and the people of the US. What's more, as I have already stated, Bush will be long gone by the time Chavez gets his Flankers. His (alleged) need for them will be gone but he will conveniently still have them. Who will be his justification for those jets when his nemesis is gone I wonder?

[High Plains]

31. What business is it of yours if Venezuela wants to buy planes?

[MGD]

38. This is a discussion board is it not?

[Spazito]

42. You didn't answer my question with regard to YOUR position on

whether you believe the US is the President and vice versa. Seeing as you have gone from saying Venezuela is an enemy of the US to Chavez is an enemy of the US without providing evidence of either, I don't see how your further argument has any merit.

Proof please, that Venezuela/Chavez has intentions of bombing the US at ANY time?

[MGD]

46. If you must know,

your argument is/was actually pretty lame so I didn't feel a need to validate it by addressing it.

"whether you believe the US is the President and vice versa."

No. GWB is the president. The US is a country.

"Seeing as you have gone from saying Venezuela is an enemy of the US to Chavez is an enemy of the US without providing evidence of either, I don't "

Seeing as you are turning this into a semantics argument, I don't see how your further argument has any merit which is why I didn't bother responding to you the first time you tried to pass this BS off as valid discourse. You don't want evidence, you want links and I'm not going to play google war with you.

[Judi Lynn]

48. We never have seen a visitor prove Chavez is an enemy of the U.S.

If you have a lot of time to "banter" with DU'ers, maybe you'll also indulge us by providing just a tiny linkee or two.

[Spazito]

49. Ahhhh, I see, I must do the work to prove YOUR contention, ROFLMAO

:rofl:

[MGD]

58. You would if you could but you can't.

now get up off the floor

[Spazito]

65. Oh dear, ummm, you realize you just told me that I can't prove what

YOU have said are the facts behind YOUR contentions because I can't, an admission that there are no facts behind your contentions.

Damn, I was just getting off the floor but you just put me right back down there :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[ThomCat]

59. Bush may be gone, but neocons live on.

And Bush has shown the need for a strong national defense. That need isn't going to evaporate when Bush leaves office.

Just imagine if Diebold puts Jeb in office. And regardless of who's in office there are people like you who would probably be more than happy to stage another coup.

[lumpy]

69. ...individuals participating who fail to make a distinction

between the government... and the people of the US?? How naive, ridiculous, to make such a statement about posters on this forum. That is what it is all about, ignorant to believe that. Personally I am not in need of such pointless input. Hogwash.

[ThomCat]

57. Chavez has never claimed that the US is his enemy.

He has claimed that the Bush Administration participated in the coup. That's a big, significant difference.

He has provided low cost heating oil to some of our poorest US communities. Not exactly the work of an enemy.

So, do you have any actual information or are you just feeling special today?

[lumpy]

47. Bush is working hard to get his followers

behind his efforts to demonize Chavez and it is working I see.

[Spazito]

53. LOL, too true, there are those who, when told to jump, don't even

ask how high! I am ALMOST tempted to feel sorry for them when they are asked for proof, I can almost hear the gears grinding to try and come up with an excuse for not having any. Note I highlighted the word "almost", lol.

[High Plains]

27. Venezuela is not our enemy. Yours, perhaps?

[Rex]

Maybe your enemy. Not mine.

Same old shit.

[Rex]

44. dupe

nt

[lumpy]

51. Why would anyone believe that

Russia will blindly follow Bushco's command. They know better.

[samsingh]

85. since when is Ven. an enemy to us?

[Vidar]

8. It's what we get for not honoring contracts for replacement parts.

[Judi Lynn]

25. Russia sells 30 fighter jets to Venezuela: report

Russia sells 30 fighter jets to Venezuela: report
Published: 7/21/2006

MOSCOW - Russia has struck a deal to supply Venezuela with 30 Su-30 fighter jets and 30 helicopters, Defence Minister Sergei Ivanov was quoted by news agencies as saying Friday.

The two countries have concluded a contract "on delivery of Su-30 warplanes and also a batch of helicopters -- 30 planes and 30 helicopters -- for more than one billion dollars," Ivanov said during a visit to the Salyut jet engine maker in Moscow.

The deal was announced ahead of a visit by President Hugo Chavez to Russia due to start on Tuesday, part of a world tour the Venezuelen leader is making.

Two Su-30s, a long-range intercept fighter jet, flew recently to Venezuela and back to participate in a military parade, "the most solid advertisement for the plane and its engines", Ivanov was quoted by ITAR-TASS news agency as saying.
(snip/...)

http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?id=134452

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On edit:

After checking, I found a new article which indicates Venezuela has already received some of the aircraft from Russia:

In mid 2005, Caracas signed a contract to buy six Mi-17 Hip and eight Mi-35 Hind multi-purpose helicopters from Russia, which has already supplied three of the aircraft.
(snip/)

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20060721/51667738.html

[MGD]

30. Back to my original point about our Russian "allies":

"The Vedomosti business daily on Thursday hailed the deal as a "historic" break into the South American market for Russia's arms industry, adding that it was a snub to the United States."

OK, go back to arguing about whether Hugo Chavez is or isn't America's friend now.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MGD]

39. I don't fall to my knees and worship Hugo Chavez

and all of a sudden I don't belong here. Never mind the fact that I'm a liberal Democrat who supports a woman's right to choose and an individuals right to marry whoever they want and any person's right to smoke pot for whatever reaon they want and every other liberal domestic policy you can think of. That doesn't matter cause I'm a "freeper". My understanding that you want this to turn into an exchange of insults prevents me from saying anything further to you.

[lumpy]

73. LMAO

Liberal Democrat. LMAO

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Spazito]

43. So allies have to walk lock-step with the US?

Damn, better check that enemies list for Canada cause we don't boycott Cuba, we trade with Cuba, etc, yet the US and bush consider us staunch allies. Is it time to dig a bomb shelter? Please, since you seem to be in the know about the US expectations of allies, enlighten me as to what I should do!

[MGD]

52. Not necessarily, but a true US ally wouldn't brag about snubbing the U.S.

especially in matters concerning arms sales to a country who is under a U.S. arms embargo.

[Mandate My Ass]

54. would a "true ally" go to a summit in his ally's country

and lecture him about democracy and offer the slaughterhouse of Iraq as a better example? :shrug:

[MGD]

66. Perhaps we should sell weapons to Chechnyans then?

After all, one good turn deserves another.

[Mandate My Ass]

67. answer the question

What pathetic red herring.

[ThomCat]

72. There you go again, implying that Venezuela

and/or Chavez are our enemies. Do you have any evidence of this? Even one link? A quote from someplace?

[lumpy]

74. The neophyte 'liberal Democrat'

has had his/her fun stringing this post along with simplistic argument. End and out.

[Spazito]

62. Is there a direct quote from a Russian representative bragging

about snubbing the US? This is all I I could find:

"The Vedomosti business daily on Thursday hailed the deal as a "historic" break into the South American market for Russia's arms industry, adding that it was a snub to the United States.

The United States has banned arms sales to Venezuela by US manufacturers."

Unless you have other sources, this says two things: NO Russian government representative bragged about snubbing the US and two:

There is NO US arms embargo against Venezuela, merely a ban on American manufacturers.

[SOS]

84. Premise is invalid

Russia is not an ally of the US.
Exactly the opposite. They may take pretty pictures at the G8, but the reality is a nasty, bitter and dangerous cold war being waged by Bush against Russia.

"The New American Cold War"

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060710/cohen

[ThomCat]

61. Oooh. Our aerospace industry lost a contract.

Because Bush blocked it. Let's blame Russia!

Russia agrees to sell planes to a country that ISN'T our enemy. Oooh. Scary. Russia must be our enemy again.

Geez. What is your problem?

[lumpy]

70. That was my understanding also, Judi

Chavez is wise in building up a defense system to defend his country against an invasion. Bushco considers Chavez a threat to distablizing US interests in the region, ergo Bushco's enemy.

[zara]

56. What that Monroe Doctrine got to say about this?

Perhaps Putin convinced by Bush's backrub of Merkel that the US is led by an idiot.

[JackNewtown]

76. Nothing

The Monroe Doctrine was against colonialism and interference by European powers in Latin America. Russia is merely selling weapons to Venezeula. Are Latin American nations not allowed to be weapons?

[JackNewtown]

77. Doesn't Venezuela have a right to defend itself too? nt

[killbotfactory]

82. NOOOOOooooo!

They have oil under their asses! They have no right to defend themselves, or to have a democracy that disagrees with us, or to elect someone Bush doesn't like, or to use their wealth to improve their own lives instead of sending it all back to the US.

Only dictators have an air-force!

[Judi Lynn]

83. And Chavez has to replace some bought by other Presidents

because _Bush refuses to sell the parts needed to repair them! You'd think Venezuela never had these planes before, to hear these brainstems hold forth!

No country is allowed to defend itself from right-wing interests! They have to all bend over.

[zann725]

79. Looks like Karma is beginning to turn. In WWII, Russia stopped Hitler.

IF the Repug MSM is now "labeling" this WWIII...