Mom Wants Dead Son Off Anti-War Shirt

[Omaha Steve]

Full story: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/07/21/national/main1826743.shtml

Mom Wants Dead Son Off Anti-War Shirt
Okla. Woman Says Her Marine Son’s Name Should Not Be Used To Make Money

OKLAHOMA CITY, July 21, 2006

CBS/AP) A woman whose Marine son died while serving in Iraq is fighting to keep his name off anti-war T-shirts.

Judy Vincent learned last year that Cpl. Scott M. Vincent's name is among about 1,700 included on a T-shirt being sold by an Arizona man over the Internet. The front of the shirt reads “Bush Lied” and the back reads “They Died.”



The Bokoshe woman, whose son was killed in April 2004, pushed for Oklahoma legislators to pass a law that makes it a misdemeanor to use a soldier's name or likeness for advertising purposes without consent. The law goes into effect this November.

U.S. Rep. Dan Boren, D-Okla., introduced a similar bill in Congress two weeks ago after Vincent asked him to do so. Republican U.S. Reps. Charles W. Boustany Jr. of Louisiana and Geoff Davis of Kentucky introduced similar legislation around the same time.

[katinmn]

1. Still believing Bush's lies. Sad.

[saigon68]

37. He son died for NeoCon Pig Corporate Profits

Its hard to accept reality, she is obviously living a life of victim-hood.



Here is Pierce Bush

Defender of the Dubai ports deal on the Today show.

He will NEVER put himself in danger

He is going to live a long life of luxury surrounded by his "own class" and many many body guards, maids, nannies and gardeners to mow his lawn

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

46. Low Hoops Thursday? Is that how Pierce plays ball?

[saigon68]

55. Outstanding photo

I love the wit and quick humor displayed here :-) :-)

[Submariner]

58. Look how close Pierce's eyes are - like GWB, a trait from same infected

tumor laden blastocysts endemic to the Bush gene pool.

[QuettaKid]

65. we have a name for people like Pierce

"Smack Magnet".....as in that f*cking smirkboy needs a SMACK in the worst way.

[w4rma]

2. Seems this would affect newspapers and TV in a very very bad manner

They would not be able to put the picture of a whole class of US citizens on the TV or in a paper without a signed legal form first.

TV and news exist for advertising purposes.

This law would clearly be bunk.

[ShortnFiery]

3. His service and death are a part of the Public Record ...

However much they HATE the anti-war movement, this is one case where IMO they have no control. I wish the grieving family could find more useful way to work through their pain, such as volunteering with the USO.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

4. I can understand that they might hate the anti-war movement,

but why do they hate their freedoms?

[ShortnFiery]

9. Because during their periods of intense grief they are often surrounded

by people who despise those who don't buy into the propaganda promoting perpetual war. Those who don't agree with Bush-Co are viscerally HATED by the Right Wing. Some of these people are literally dangerous. The core of the Right Wing movement is filled with people who are seriously mean-spirited and wrapped too tight emotionally for this world. :scared:

[Freedom_from_Chains]

23. Well you are right there, some of them are just flat out dangerous.

Which I have been telling people for a couple of decades now that this cult was rising in the party but no one was interested in listening. I suppose that's the cost we incur for too long of a time of luxury living.

[truth2power]

47. Same here...

8,10 years ago I was telling people there's a difference between tolerance and colluding in your own destruction. I was accused of trying to "demonize" them. That was a buzzword back then. Don't hear it so much anymore.

[NEOBuckeye]

5. Misdirected Anger

Sounds like she just can't accept that her son died because of Bush.

[Thor_MN]

43. Her options: a heroic death or a tragic death for her son

I guess I can't blame a parent for rationalizing their child's death... Maybe in time, she will be able to get beyond her grief and deal with the reality that her son died to support the neocon wet dream of empire.

[alcibiades_mystery]

6. I would challenge that law

Her son's name in reference to the war is part of the public domain. Nobody needs consent to put it on anything.

[Ian David]

7. Fuck that. I'm buying two of these!

Item Description Qty Each Total
BLTDMVS "Bush Lied They Died Magnetic Vehicle Sign. 12-inch by 18-inch. Rolled & shipped in a tube, or shipped flat if you select Priority Mail. (This item is excluded from quantity discounts)" 2 $9.00 $18.00
BLTDBLKTSS Bush Lied They Died Black T-Shirt Small (This item is excluded from quantity discounts) 1 $10.00 $10.00
PAEAMVBS Peace & Equality are Moral Values - Bumper Sticker 1 $3.00 $3.00
Subtotal: $31.00
Shipping (Free shipping by U.S. Mail to a U.S. Address): +$0.00
Grand Total: $31.00

[Ian David]

8. Buy the shirt HERE

http://carryabigsticker.com/bush_lied_shirt.htm

Hurry!

Before The Couchwaffen GOP attacks our freedoms and takes it away!

[Canuckistanian]

40. "Couchwaffen", hahaha

Good one. Ranks right up there with the 101st Fighting Keyboarders.

[54anickel]

45. Thanks! Great stuff there - putting together a shopping list. Think I'll

get the Jesus Wanted posters. 40 for just $5. I'm gonna post them up around town and on the door of each church - see if any make it to the bulletin board inside.

As far as the law goes, why should only soldiers get this protection? Make it applicable to all or none. I'm sure advertisers and the media would be up in arms over that...It'll never happen. Pictures of crowds are used all of the time. If there happens to be a soldier (uniformed or not) in one can he sue?

I feel for this woman in her moment of grief, but I'm sure the news media and advertisers have hurt people in the past without it resulting in legislation. She will be hurt again by the legislators using her and her grief as a tool to further the divide in this country over the war in a freakin' election year.

edit to take out link to image...didn't expect it to actually load - I just wanted the link to the poster. :blush:

carryabigsticker.com/images/jesus_poster_500.gif

[buff2]

10. What an obnoxious bitch

She's not upset her son died in an unjust war based on LIES? If that was ME,I would be MAD AS HELL! WTF is WRONG with that idiot? Does Bu$h mean more to her than her own SON???? Apparently so. :grr:

[Psephos]

11. Obnoxious bitch?

Hardly.

If it was a mother fighting to keep her dead son's name off a GOP pro-war t-shirt, it would all be different, right? Because of a friggin' political party?

We can disagree with this mother's politics without resorting to vileness. She lost her son, she deserves to hold whatever opinions she wants regarding the use of his name. Civility is the least we offer to grieving mothers.

BTW, calling someone a bitch is addressed in the Content Rules for DU. Here's the URL:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules_detailed.html

I'm not slamming you, I'm slamming the invective you used. Just to be clear. :)

Peace.

[proud2BlibKansan]

16. That rule is for DU members

I doubt this mother is a DUer.

[Psephos]

21. You're mistaken

The posting language is clear that such proscriptions are not limited to DU members, but all private persons. Exception is made only for certain usages concerning public figures, as detailed below.

Use of the word bitch is strongly discouraged, but not absolutely forbidden. The word offends many here who feel it is derogatory toward all females, regardless of to whom it is applied.

Here are the relevant paragraphs in DU's content policy:

Do not post messages that are bigoted against (or grossly insensitive toward) any person or group of people based on their race, gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, religion, lack of religion, disability, physical characteristics, or region of residence.

While specific words are not automatically forbidden, members should avoid using racist, sexist, homophobic, or otherwise bigoted terminology. This includes gender-specific terms such as "cunt," "whore," "slut," "skank," or "pussy," and terms with homophobic derivation, such as "cocksucker," which are often inflammatory and inappropriate. A common exception that is permitted is the use of words like "whore" or "prostitute" in cases where public figures or the media do favors. (For example: "Fox News is whoring for the GOP again" or "Tom DeLay is a prostitute for corporate interests.")

Special note with regard to the word "bitch": The word "bitch" has been the source of a great deal of controversy on this website, because some of our members consider it to be a bigoted slur against all women, while others do not consider it bigoted. For a while we actively deleted posts which included this word, in an effort to keep the peace. This effort helped to keep discussions on track, but it resulted in many deleted posts that were otherwise perfectly fine as well as many confused people. Futhermore, the moderators themselves were ambivalent about removing the word. For this reason, we no longer automatically remove the word "bitch." However, we strongly urge members to voluntarily avoid using the word if they wish to keep their own discussions from going off-topic, and we reserve the right to take disciplinary action if we think someone is deliberately using the word in an effort to disrupt or cause trouble.

Peace.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

38. No disrepect towards female dogs, but some women are flat out bitches.

And I say that as a woman, who has been known to be a *gasp* bitch on occaision.

[54anickel]

48. Men who behave in a similar way are referred to as assertive, or just

plain ass-holes. "Assertive" women are referred to as aggressive or bitches. Of course sometimes their just spiteful or overbearing...sounds more like an ass-hole to me. Then again, my favorite T-shirt says "You call me a bitch like it's a bad thing". I wear it when participating in a competitive sport - tends to psych out the opponent. :evilgrin:

[iverglas]

67. "And I say that as a woman"

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0039416/quotes

Elaine Wales:
You just let them get one wrong Jew in here, and it'll come out of us. It's no fun taking the blame for the kikey ones.

Phil Green:
Miss Wales, I'm going to be frank with you. I want you to know that words like kike and yid and coon and nigger make me sick no matter who says them.

Elaine Wales:
Oh, but I only said it about a type of Jew.

Phil Green:
Well, it's the word that I'm talking about.

Elaine Wales:
Oh, but sometimes I even say it about myself. Like, if I'm about to do something I know I shouldn't, I'll say, "Don't be such a little kike."

Gentleman's Agreement, 1947.

[iverglas]

66. common decency is so uncommon sometimes, isn't it?

And there's seldom anything gained by arguing with those who lack it. It's not like they have never heard the expressions of the sorrow and fear and humiliation felt by women who have had the vicious labels applied to them, or the carefully explained reasoning that militates against using such labels to refer to members of a group that is universally victimized and vulnerable to victimization. I mean, it's really not like that's the case very often. At DU.

Just a word of recognition for you and all of us who try to speak up over the noise.

[anotherdrew]

81. yes becaue this is WAR and lives are at stake

she can fuck off for all I care, same goes for any and ALL war supporters.

[Ian David]

17. Buy her a t-shirt. ZabaSearch is your friend. n/t

[JI7]

20. maybe she doesn't view the war as unjust

it's also diffucult for many who lose loved ones to accept that they could have died for a war based on lies and one that is doing no good.

calling a mother of a dead soldier an obnoxious bitch sure isn't going to convince her and others to see the truth.

[anotherdrew]

82. who cares what she thinks, she doesn't own her sons name n/t

[fishwax]

30. what an obnoxious post

[Nicole]

35. You said it! n/t

[MaineDem]

44. Thank you. My thought too. n/t

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[daleo]

14. If the snotty elitists would have had their way, he would be alive

Ironic.

[manic expression]

15. Excuse you?

The people who are anti-war care about her and her son, that's the f*cking reason that they're ANTI-WAR.

Try to use your head and some sense of reality before posting such nonsense.

[cmkramer]

56. If you say so

It's all about exploitation. Why so much anger or condescension -- "Poor silly dear, she obviously is a brainwashed Bush supporter" just because she doesn't want her son's name on the shirt? Maybe she is a supporter of Bush and the war. Maybe she isn't.

Remember the last anti-war movement elected Richard Nixon. I haven't trusted them since.

[anotherdrew]

80. who CARES what she wants? IT DOESN'T MATTER

she gave up control of her son the day he turned 18

[proud2BlibKansan]

18. This is the first time

anyone has called me a snotty little elitist. :wtf:

And you are completely wrong. Every anti-war activist I know cares deeply about the soldiers who are victimized by el pretzeldente's invasion of Iraq. My group raises money and sends care packages to the soldiers. There are also many military parents in our group. You couldn't be more off base here.

[kestrel91316]

22. I guess you don't count yourself among those who make up the

anti-war movement?????

So why are you here? Surely there must be forums and websites more to your liking?

[AnOhioan]

24. Who the hell are you calling "elitist"?!?!

Get a grip

[ShortnFiery]

25. not wanting to be exploited in this way equate with support for the war?

Oh gee, let's call it sort of a red flag indicator. ;)

Seriously, people are using this grief stricken woman when she should be seeking comfort from the Gold Star Mothers and later volunteering with the USO.

[ronnie624]

27. You

are one very confused individual.

[fishwax]

31. the snotty little elitists were the ones who started the war n/t

[katinmn]

32. If we didn't care, we would just say "That's war. What did you expect?"

But we're assuming they enlisted in order to serve their country (and get money for college). The anti-war movement also cares about lack of armour and contaminated food and water being served to the soldiers. Haven't heard anyone else complain about that.

[Canuckistanian]

41. Hey, I'm the founder of Snotty Elitists for Peace™

But I ain't so little.

Thanks for your support!

[daleo]

13. It's not advertising, it is political speech.

You'd probably need a magnifying glass to read it anyway.

[Realityhack]

71. Good Point

I think this is a very important point. This is political speach NOT adversising which makes it very diffrent legaly speaking as I understand it.

[Mz Pip]

19. THen his picture should

be removed. IF the Mom wants that then let her have it. He kid has been exploited and died for a lie. If she is more comfortable in denial, then let her be and let her have her wish.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[Realityhack]

72. What picture?

I did not know we were discussing a picture?

Also wouldn't that type of giving in have a chilling affect on freedom of political speach? You can't put a name to all the soldiers who died?

[KingFlorez]

26. It's public record, everyone knows

Her concern is more about supporting the Bush regime than her son. It's not advertising, because it's not promoting a specific business or organization.

[54anickel]

49. I think it probably has the website printed on it. All of the merchandise

I've looked at on it so far has the url printed on it. If so, then it is advertising. I had the same thought when I first read the article - what advertising?

[Hekate]

28. Somehow I don't think Cindy Sheehan would condemn this mother's grief.

I'm just sayin'
She's more to be pitied than censured.

Hekate

[Psephos]

36. Well said...

It's hardly a stretch to ask progressives to show sympathy and deference to a grieving mother, or at bare minimum, simple courtesy.

Meanwhile, we can pity her among ourselves. I do.

Peace.

[Robb]

29. Utter nonsense.

Also, the "soldier's name or likeness" law is unenforceable and should be struck.

When you are a matter of public record, you and your family are out of luck. It's tough, but it's so.

"I don't care what he thinks about the war. I do care that he's making money off my son's death.”

Are you talking about the t-shirt guy still? Or Commander Cuckoobananas?

[daleo]

33. She could be talking about Mr. Haliburton, Dick Cheney

"I don't care what he thinks about the war. I do care that he's making money off my son's death.”

[jbm]

34. I would feel the same way..

It wouldn't be about being anti-war or pro-Bush. It would be about the idea that my sons name was being used for profit by some guy making t-shirts. There's no way to even know for sure if the guy making the t-shirts IS anti-war. I think it is wrong for him to exploit dead soldiers names for personal gain.

[Mind_your_head]

39. I know what you're saying, but the guy selling the shirts is thevery LEAST

guy on the "War Profiteer" Totem Pole, as a previous poster alluded to.

[karlrschneider]

52. I would give big odds he could make MUCH more money

if the T-shirts were proclaiming what a Great Leader chimpy 'is'...
just sayin'

[stanwyck]

91. My son is a Marine, and I certainly

don't want his name on one of these shirts. (he's had two tours in Iraq - one more coming up). But I wouldn't try to stop someone from using his name in a factual way. This young man died. That's a fact. His name is on a T-shirt as a fact. This is not disrespectful.
But then, I'm anti-war. So I have that bias.

[flamingpie2500]

42. This T shirt isn't advertising anything--the point is mute. IMHO

a soldier's name or likeness for advertising purposes without consent. The law goes into effect this November.

[alcibiades_mystery]

50. The point might be moot, but it ain't mute

;-)

That's better than Joey on Friends. He says "The point is moo. Y'know, like a cow's opinion. It doesn't mean anything." :rofl:

[Skittles]

51. sorry, the answer is MOOPS

:D

[greccogirl]

53. Then they

should take it off.

[screenplaya]

54. Us Taxpayers Paid For That Photo

[Stargazer99]

57. Let her have it her way

There are plenty more names to put on that shirt

[WilliamPitt]

59. Her wishes should be respected.

[Robb]

61. Maybe

...but public figures, Will. You know that.

Nice to see you. :hi:

[Lance_Boyle]

68. respected, but not necessarily acquiesced to

She has a right to ask that the name be removed, but if there is no legal violation in the T-shirt maker's use of the name, the T-shirt maker has a right to use it.

The T-shirt maker should, though, offer to donate 1/1700th of the profits to Halliburton in her name, with a memo on the check specifying "plus one dead son."

[bling bling]

70. Totally agree.

From a moral POV, anyway. IMO, the tee-shirt mfr. shouldn't fight her on it.

From a legal perspective, I'm not so sure I'd agree. I know that Rosa Parks sued Outkast for using her name in a song. But she, obviously, was alive at the time and sued on behalf of herself.

I don't know what the broader implications could be if the law this woman wants is passed, so I'm hesitant to support her on it at this time.

[enki23]

60. it's not being used for "advertising purposes"

otherwise, i'd agree with her.

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[saigon68]

83. Au Revoir voyez-vous

[Raine]

63. What if the shirt said something

on the front like "they died in vain" and on the back "if we don't stay the course" and used all the names. I just like to look at things from all angles.

[FILAM23]

64. I'm totally

on the Mothers side here.

[Raster]

73. Why? Her son did die and in vain to boot. Her complaint should be

with the criminal that sent him to die.

[FILAM23]

88. Who knows how

she feels about the war. Even though I have been oppossed to
the war since before it began I would do the same thing if it
was my sons name. But I would only sue after I had crammed the
shirt up the guys ass.

[galileo3000]

69. What harm with letting mother have her way?

I don't see the harm in allowing the mother to have the name removed?

[Raster]

74. It's a form of censorship. His death was not a private matter. It was

public as hell. Let her take her complaint to he liar and thief that sent her son to die.

[galileo3000]

75. I think this bolsters the other side

Lowering ourselves by showing how we can hit back (even behind the safety of free speech) undermines any attempts we might make to win over the hearts of the lives we are trying to preserve. While we may have a complete legal right to do this, it doesn't mean we should. I am convinced that the strength of the progressive movement comes from elevating the conversations. Profiting off of someone else's pain should not be a value of the peace movement.

We can be better, and by doing so, we will grow because we can show that we can be trusted.

Peace.
- galileo

[RangerSmith]

78. It is both

profiting off his death and politicizing his death and I'd personally respect the families wishes.

But, then again, I wouldn't do either of the above in the first place and I'd call out a right winger for doing the same thing.

[galileo3000]

84. thanks I concur.

I see the peace movement as the most serious focus for the Democrats these days. We cannot allow this to be hi-jacked by anarchists.

[illumn8d]

77. As I read the law he could still give away the shirt for free...

in most states. Except one state outlaws usage for political purposes.

[Felix Mala]

76. What do we gain by antagonizing a grieving mother? There are

and will be plenty of dead to make the point without disregarding this poor woman's feelings out of hand. Of course, going to the legislature to get some instant (bad) law whipped up makes me less sympathetic.

[anotherdrew]

79. she can go to hell - stupid bitch n/t

[truebrit71]

85. I think this lady is a moran for not seeing the truth....however....

...she does have the right to have her son's picture removed from a T-shirt espousing a viewpoint he may or may not have believed in himself.

"How do you ask someone to be the last person to die for a lie?"

The sad part is that thinking that he died for a good cause probably makes her loss a bit more bearable....

[SensibleAmerican]

86. This law should be declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court

n/t

[against all enemies]

87. Better hurry before Bush gets one more Justice.

[Throd]

89. Suppose some Freeper was using Casey Sheehan's image

to make pro-war t-shirts.

They would have the right to do the wrong thing.

Personally, I think this guy should be able to continue with his shirts. However, some of the invective levied at this mother is profoundly disappointing.

[Robb]

92. Nicely put on both points

The dangerous thing is establishing any precedents where public information -- in this case, a dead soldier's name -- has use limitations.

On another tangent, using Casey Sheehan's image would be ratcheting things up a notch. I'm not sure a person's likeness is necessarily part of the public record -- unless, of course, it is. :)

[Thickasabrick]

90. She doesn't own her son. I view this as the artist speaking for the

dead....something she's not prepared or unwilling to do. No matter what side of the political spectrum you reside, the truth is that this war was based on lies. That is a fact this woman needs to deal with.