New questions over death of David Kelly

[bemildred]

Alarming new questions about the death of Iraq weapons inspector David Kelly have been raised as a major investigation cast doubt on the official verdict that he committed suicide.

The inquiry by campaigning MP Norman Baker will spark renewed speculation about how the Government's leading expert on weapons of mass destruction was found dead in a field in Oxfordshire three years ago.

In particular, the dossier compiled by the Liberal Democrat MP for Lewes shows that the method of suicide said to have been chosen by Dr Kelly, far from being common as was claimed at the time, was in fact unique.

Dr Kelly was the only person in the United Kingdom that year deemed to have died from severing the ulnar artery in his wrist, a particularly difficult and painful process as the artery is deep and Dr Kelly had only a blunt garden knife.

Daily Mail

[PSPS]

1. It's really pathetic how everyone still dances around the obvious

Even at this late date, long after The Cabal's influence has peaked, you still read these "news stories" about "new questions" regarding the trail of dead bodies in bush's wake.

[IndianaGreen]

2. Tony Blair had Dr. Kelly assassinated

that's what many of us thought then, and that's what we still believe today.

[mogster]

4. He wasn't past using the Hutton report to get money for New Labour

Remember this?

"Cherie Blair was last night accused of 'bad taste' amd 'insensitivity'after helping the Labour Party to cash in on the suicide of Governmet scientist Dr David Kelly. Mrs Blair signed a copy of the Hutton Report into the weapons inspector's death, which was then auctioned off to raise money for the party. The document, which was also signed by Alastair Campbell, fetched £400 at an after dinner auction. Last night Reg Keays, whose Red Cap son Tom was killed by an Iraqi mob in 2003 said: "Cherie and Campbell have shown very bad taste. The coffins draped in the Union flag are still returning from Iraq. To auction off a report which inquired into the suicide of a very eminent, respected scoientist is effectively profting from other people's misery. But themn that is just typical of this government's attitude." Mrs Blair also came under fire from Labour MPs, shocked at the way the tragedy which rocked the government was now the subject of jokey fundraising events. Jeremy Corbyn MP said: "It is incredibly insensitive and in seriously bad taste. The Hutton Report is not a triumph of anything except obfuscation and secrecy." The auction took place on Wednesday at London's Arts Club in mayfair and was organised by James Purnell, the newly promoted pensions minister. The auctioneer was Rhondda MP Chris Bryant who explained to the audience this was not the first time a Hutton Report had been sold for party funds. To excite interest in the sale he pointed out that even unsigned copies cost £70 from HMSO. He boasted that at the previous event the buyer was able to make a profit by reselling the document signed by Alastair Campbell on Ebay. But Mr Bryant insisted this year's lot was unique becasue it also bore the imprint of Mrs Blair. One guest told the Mil on Sunday: "Even at the time there were a lot of people wondering whether it was really appropriate - even in jest."

http://iaindale.blogspot.com/2006/05/cherie-scrapes-barrell-by-signing.html

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=191x16721

You can't make these people up, I swear.

[glitch]

8. How "in your face" arrogant. I still think they are all on prescription

sleep aides, such as Zombien(tm), which interfere with memory and the ability to analyze, necessary for critical thought, aka sentience.

[Cha]

16. Ee Gods! cherie

baby sounds as ghoulish as her lapdog spouse..well, not quite.

[chimpymustgo]

18. Ghoulish!!! Un - freaking - believable. Forget tin foil hats.

What protects us from the Illuminati? These are not garden variety human beings.

[MissWaverly]

45. what an outrage

when did all this start, when did we start going down this path, I never remember political
parties being this crass before.

[leftchick]

37. I wonder if many folks in the UK believe this as well

it seemed so obvious to me at the time. It is your typical BFEE murder "suicide" case.

[bennywhale]

51. I remember being with my dad at the time i heard of his

death and before they could say suicide i thought murder.

I don't know if he was murdered or not, and probably never will, but i wouldn't in the least bit be surprised if it turned out he had been murdered.

[greccogirl]

27. Oh please

you sound like the "Clinton trail of bodies" nonsense.

[arikara]

30. Sure...

they're stupid, greedy, amoral. They start wars based on lies, killing hundreds of thousands, nobody can quite figure out to what purpose. They enrich themselves at the expense of everyone else. But they would NEVER stoop to assassinating anyone who gets in their way.

Oh please.

[me b zola]

33. nonsense.

[ima_sinnic]

41. educate yourself. here is a good place to start.

http://blatanttruth.org/bushcrimefamily.php

I'm partial to that site because it is mine. There are others that are even more expansive and detailed--I simply did not have the time and resources to go on with it. Now try to find ANYthing documenting, really documenting, a "Clinton trail of dead bodies."

[OzarkDem]

42. Projection is a common defense mechanism of the GOP / BFEE

They've always been more likely to accuse others of something they themselves are guilty of.

[ronnie624]

47. Some info for you:

Although suicide was officially accepted as the cause of death, some medical experts have raised doubts, suggesting that the evidence does not back this up. The most detailed objection was provided in a letter from three medical doctors published in The Guardian <4>, re-inforced by support from two other senior physicians in a later letter to the Guardian <5>. These doctors argued that the autopsy finding of a transected ulnar artery could not have caused a degree of blood loss that would kill someone, particularly when outside in the cold (as opposed to e.g. in a warm bath which would prevent the artery from vascoconstricting). Further, this conflicted with the minimal amount of blood found at the scene. They also contended that the amount of co-proxamol found was only about a third of what would normally be fatal. Dr Rouse, a British epidemiologist wrote to the BMJ pointing out that the act of committing suicide by severing wrist arteries is an extremely rare occurrence in a 59 year old man with no previous psychiatric history <6>.

Dave Bartlett and Vanessa Hunt, the two paramedics who were called to the scene of Kelly's death, have since gone public with their view that there was not enough blood at the location to justify the belief that he died from blood loss. Bartlett and Hunt told The Guardian that they saw a small amount of blood on plants near Kelly's body and a patch of blood the size of a coin on his trousers. They said they would expect to find several pints of blood at the scene of a suicide involving an arterial cut <7> <8>.

<http://www.answers.com/topic/david-kelly>

[crim son]

53. Welcome to DU greccogirl.

I'm kind of curious why you're here. :think:

[flyarm]

64. show me where paramedics come out and speak out over

any of the crap about as you say greccogirl ..the "clinton trail of bodies"

the paramedicas did speak out about Dr. David Kelly's deaths and their suspicions!

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/kelly/story/0,,1372078,00.html

Kelly death paramedics query verdict

The Hutton inquiry found that the scientist caught in the storm over the 'sexed up' Iraq dossier committed suicide. Now, for the first time, the experienced ambulance crew who were among the first on the scene tell of their doubts about the decision. Special report by Antony Barnett

Sunday December 12, 2004
The Observer


In the cramped office of an Oxford law firm, Dave Bartlett's solicitor turns to him and asks if he is happy to stand by the dramatic comment he has just made about the death of Dr David Kelly.
Bartlett's eyes do not waver. 'Yes. I have always said that had it been a member of my family I wouldn't have accepted what they came out with.'

Sitting next to Bartlett is his colleague, Vanessa Hunt. Like him, she has been a paramedic for more than 15 years. She does not hesitate either. 'There just wasn't a lot of blood... When somebody cuts an artery, whether accidentally or intentionally, the blood pumps everywhere. I just think it is incredibly unlikely that he died from the wrist wound we saw.'

On 18 July last year Bartlett and Hunt received an emergency call to attend a suspected suicide. Over the years they have raced to the scenes of dozens of attempted suicides in which somebody has cut their wrists. In only one case has the victim been successful.
'That was like a slaughterhouse,' recalls Hunt. 'Just think what it would be like with five or six pints of milk splashed everywhere.' If you slit your wrists, that is the equivalent amount of blood you would have to lose.

But this was not the scene which greeted the two paramedics when their ambulance arrived at Harrowdown Hill woods in Oxfordshire, where the body of Dr Kelly, the weapons expert, had been found.

[struggle4progress]

69. Kelly's chilling words: 'I'll be found dead in the woods'

Diplomat reveals inspector's pre-war doubts

Ewen MacAskill, Nicholas Watt and Vikram Dodd
Friday August 22, 2003
The Guardian

The weapons specialist, Dr David Kelly, said six months ago that he would "probably be found dead in the woods" if the American and British invasion of Iraq went ahead, Lord Hutton's inquiry was told yesterday ...

Dr Kelly's body was found in woods near his home last month ...

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/kelly/story/0,,1027373,00.html

[Old and In the Way]

72. Good point.

You are not the 1st to innoculate the actions of Bush/Blair by dragging out this old "trail of bodies" chestnut. Just because it was absurd when the RW media blasted those unfounded charges, it must be wrong now. Except Clinton didn't let 9/11 happen, didn't start an invasion/occupation of Iraq based on lies, and didn't try to dismantle our political/financial foundations. Otherwise, it would be exactly the same.

[Totally Committed]

3. The last thing he did before he died was e-mail Judith Miller...

(NYT Reporter of "Scooter Libby" fame) I find THAT really "coincidental". In his e-mail, he told her he was not looking forward to testifying bcause there were "many dark players". Then he went out for a walk, where he killed himself in an almost impossible way.

GMAFB. No way he committed suicide.

TC

[tanyev]

6. Judy, Judy, Judy.

Another interesting episode from the Judy Does Journalism Proud files is her reporting on the death of David Kelly, the British WMD expert who committed suicide in July 2003 after being outed as the anonymous source behind the BBC story claiming the Blair government had manipulated intelligence to help sell the war in Iraq.

Miller knew Kelly very well. He had been a key source for “Germs”, the book on biological warfare she co-wrote, she had quoted him in newspaper articles she’d written over the years, and the two had corresponded right up until his death.

Yet Miller failed to mention any of this when she co-wrote a story about Kelly the day his body was found, or when she wrote a follow-up story three days later. Not a word. This is all the more puzzling when you learn that Kelly had sent an email to Miller just hours before his death, warning that there were “many dark actors playing games”. The first Miller article on Kelly’s death mentions this e-mail but fails to say that Miller was the recipient.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-huffington/the-judy-file-it-depend_b_5165.html

[go west young man]

44. Here's a link to the BBC story on the dark actors quote...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3080795.stm And a link to the Kelly story from Reference.com
http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/David_Kelly

[flyarm]

65. here is a copy of the email in pdf form from the hutton inquiry..

http://www.the-hutton-inquiry.org.uk/content/com/com_4_0076.pdf

Loftus, Paul (LDR-LON)
From: David Kelly
Sent: 17 Jul
To: ,r
Subject: you
I will wait until the end of the week before judging - many dark actors playing games .
Thanks for your support I appreciate your friendship at this time .
Best,
David
-----0 i inal Mess e-----
From :
Sent : 16 July 2003 00 :30
To :
MIM Subjectyou
David,
I heard from another member of your fan club that things went well for you
today Hope it's true J

[ronnie624]

48. There isn't a whole lot out there

about David Kelly's relationship with Judith Miller. The corporate media seems to limit details as much as possible.

Actors Playing Games:


SUICIDE scientist Dr David Kelly warned a friend that "dark actors" were working against him just hours before his death.
Dr Kelly revealed his fears shortly before killing himself after being dragged into the row over the Government's justification for war in Iraq.
In an email to American author Judy Miller, sent just before he left his home for the last time, he referred to "many dark actors playing games".
But, according to Miller, Dr Kelly gave no indication he was depressed or planning to take his own life.
He told her he would wait "until the end of the week" before deciding his next move following his traumatic appearance before a House of Commons select committee...


In fact, Judith Miller apparently knew David Kelly rather well. She had quoted him in several of her earlier articles going back to 1998, and according to the Globe article referenced above, Kelly had helped her write her book about Weapons of Mass Destruction published several years before.

One would have thought that Miller would have regarded her relationship with Kelly as well as her contact with him just before his death as "scoop" material. Instead she failed to let her readers even know that she had enjoyed a long and close association with him. Even more odd, she left out the provocative e-mail he had written her just prior to his death while writing about a more innocuous one sent to an "associate."

<http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/7/3/17138/30618>

[ronnie624]

49. The BBC

does not even bother to name the "journalist" to whom David Kelly sent his last e-mail.

The message, sent to a journalist, appeared to refer to officials within the Ministry of Defence and British intelligence agencies with whom he had sparred over interpretations of weapons reports, according to the New York Times.

<http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/3080795.stm>

[Peace Patriot]

55. I would argue with Dr. Kelly "being dragged into the row over the Govern-

ment's justifications for war in Iraq." Kelly was whistleblowing anonymously to the BBC about the "sexed up" prewar WMD intel (late May 2003). He was motivated to expose the Blair government, even though Kelly had supported the invasion. (He wanted Saddam ousted; Kelly was an old hand at Iraq, had been part of the UN weapons inspector team, and was known as a tough guy, facing down Saddam, and also the Russians, on WMDs). So why did he turn against the Government's prewar exaggerations AFTER the war? That is the question. He stirred this hornet's nest up himself. Why?

After the broadcast of his anonymous disclosures, the Blair gov't went into a tizzy to find out who he was. They hunted for him within the government. They tried every way they could to get the BBC to disclose his identity. Very intense pressure was put on the BBC (which did not cave.) He was then mysteriously outed to his bosses. There is evidence in Kelly's statements at the time that he was puzzled at being outed. It is still unknown who outed him. (It occurred at the same time that Kelly's old colleague Judith Miller was meeting with Scooter Libby in the conspiracy to out WMD counter-proliferation agent Valerie Plame and her entire Brewster-Jennings network--mid-June 2003.) What followed was a series on interrogations and threats against Kelly. They were trying to find out if they had indeed ferreted out the BBC whistleblower. It is now certain that it was Kelly (according to the BBC reporters who interviewed him). He backpedaled a bit (likely trying to save his career--he was about to retire). But there is no question that he and OTHER scientists were not happy about being strongarmed on the exaggerated prewar intel (to paint it as more than it was).

That alone indicates that he had scientific and professional standards that he was trying to live up to. (He had a reputation as a top scientist--as well as a tough, straight-arrow sort of fellow.) There was a behind-the-scenes struggle (prewar) about the British WMD reports. He tried to keep them relatively honest. He (and other scientists) failed. But he remained silent about it until May 2003 (after the invasion).

The question is: Why would he whistleblow AFTER the invasion? If he was in cahoots with the likes of Judith Miller (she used him as her major quoted source in her exploitation of 9/11/and Anthrax attacks, a book called "Germs"), he was "with the program" to that point (March 2003--invasion), then rather surprisingly met secretly with BBC reporters in late May 2003, to blow the whistle on how the prewar intel was put together.

There is supporting evidence that he knew something MORE than just the prewar exaggerations in British WMD reports. The Hutton Report reveals that Tony Blair was informed on July 7 that Kelly "could say some uncomfortable things." Could say. Not HAD said. This was AFTER his whistleblowing. The whole arc of Kelly's viewpoint on the invasion/war points to something dramatic occurring (a discovery, a realization) in the April-May period AFTER the invasion, that turned him around about the war.

My guess is that it was the discovery of a Bush/Blair plot to PLANT nukes in Iraq. THAT would likely have greatly bothered this straight-arrow man and top scientist. He said at some point (after the interrogations--maybe in his last emails--can't recall exactly) that he had assured his bosses that he wasn't going to reveal "any state secrets." Why would he say this? He had ALREADY revealed that they had exaggerated the intel. What "state secrets" was he thinking of? But he clearly felt an obligation to warn the public that something wasn't right. A plot to plant WMDs would be TOP SECRET. It would be a hanging offense to disclose it (--a hanging offense to the fascists). So he cried foul on the lesser charge of their lies about WMDs.

In America, they outed the CIA WMD counter-proliferation unit (and all its agents/contacts around the globe), starting with Valerie Plame (July 14), then the entire Brewster-Jennings network (July 22--same rightwing columnist, Robt. Novak). Kelly was found dead in between these two dates, on July 18. Whatever the Bush/Blair regime was up to (whether trying to plant WMDs in Iraq, or somethng equally nefarious), one can't help feeling that these two WMD experts--Plame (and her network) and Kelly--were STOPPING them from something, had foiled them in some way, and that vengeance was being meted out, by threat and by death (--and/or silencing, perhaps in a panic at possible future disclosures). The CIA protects its own, so they didn't dare off Plame (although they may well have gotten other covert agents/contacts killed). Kelly had no such protection--and he was a wild card, I think. An unexpected development--a scientist seized by his conscience--unpredictable, and standing there all alone.

Most people attribute the Plame outing to the publication of her husband's whistleblowing article about the Niger nuke charge, on July 6, 2003. That may have been part of it (or part of an older, related plot against the CIA professionals regarding the Niger forgeries that was playing out that summer--or trying to be played out). But I suspect that the real trigger for the Plame outing occurred the next day, July 7, when Blair found out what ELSE Kelly knew and communicated it to the Bushites, causing them to out Plame precipitously, in a panic, in a very stupid and risky way. Kelly''s offices were searched and his computers seized after his death (July 17-18). Four days later, on July 22, they additionally outed the entire Brewster-Jennings network.

They did all this (committed treason!) to punish an ex-diplomat for his dissenting article? I find that hard to believe. The article was politically damaging, but the Bushites had, and still have, almost complete control over the corporate newsstream in the U.S. It would have disappeared down the river of forgetfulness if they had left it alone. I suspect that the political punishment story was a cover story (--and there is evidence that Libby set Rove up to be the fall guy). The Bushite actions during this period are a sort of double-image: Rove out front doing his typical dirty politics. Cheney, Libby (and I think Rumsfeld was the mastermind) committing nefarious deeds behind the scenes that the political/media story is a sort of mask for. Yeah, Rove would commit dirty deeds--but outing an entire CIA network, on his own? That's impossible to believe (if for no other reason than Rove's own sense of self-preservation).

We know now that at least Cheney and Libby were behind the outing. But this wasn't known THEN. The story was that it was Rove (in a fit of political anger and revenge aimed at Wilson). That held until CIA Director Tenet requested an investigation, and then all elements of the Bush junta, including AG Gonzales, began scrambling to cover up for ALL of the people involved, with an honest prosecutor (Fitzgerald) ending up in charge of the investigation. Gonzales alerted the White House, and they started shredding documents and burning hard drives, and Libby and Rove started concocting stories to protect their respective bosses--during which Libby and Rove had a dustup about Rove taking the rap (reported in Wilson's book).

ALL of this could have been avoided by Bush or Cheney making a simple confession and mea culpa about fuzzied lines of authority on declassification, "in a time of crisis," and overzealous politicos. They could have apologized to CIA personnel and promised to never let such a thing happen again. They could have said, "I take responsibility as the boss" and no one else is responsible--mea culpa, mea culpa. The Anthrax Congress would have given them a pass. As with their reaction to the Wilson article (far in excess of the provocation, and making things far worse for themselves), their massive OVERREACTION points to something hidden beneath the surface.

It is not possible to know if this theory (the WMD-planting theory of Plamegate) is what really happened. But it holds up very well on many details, and explains a lot of mysteries in both the Plame and Kelly stories (not the least of which is their startling coincidence of dates). If I could do a full investigation of Kelly's death, this is what I would be looking for: the motive for Kelly's murder by elements within the Bush/Blair governments (or for driving Kelly to suicide) (--his BBC revelations are not sufficient motive to kill him--that they had "sexed up" the WMD intel was fairly well known, by most of the world, at that point; but what was still pending was a "find" if WMDs in Iraq); Kelly's motive in whistleblowing (what else did he know? why did he turn against the war?); why the Blair gov't was not surveilling Kelly after they sent him home, and, if they were, why didn't his watchers rescue him from his alleged suicide?; Blair's phone calls to AF-1 on July 7-8 (did they collude on the Plame/BJ outings and Kelly's death? --AF-1 was over Africa during that period, with key players aboard); any connective tissue between the Plame and Kelly stories (such as the Judith Miller connection); and the Islamic press news stories of the period, about U.S. efforts to plant WMDs in Iraq.

I am not in a position to investigate these things. I hope that Patrick Fitzgerald and Norman Baker and others with investigative resources are doing so.

The official version of Kelly's death is absurd--and they also blatantly tried to cover THAT up.

[bling bling]

76. I thought you'd cut and pasted an article at first.

When I got to the end and saw no source linked I realized you wrote all this yourself. That was a very interesting post to read. Thanks for taking the time to explain all of that. And you're a very good writer.

[ljm2002]

80. What you say here makes sense to me.

I will never forget Blair's face going ash white when asked about this in a press conference. It was so obvious -- that he knew something.

Wish I knew what Bush et al have on that clown (Blair).

[joeunderdog]

81. Wow. nice post. David Kay didn't get whacked for his "disclosure."

He was a Bushco guy who said there just weren't any WMD's, but that didn't threaten his life. Kelly obviously had something else. The absence of WMD's was not a news flash since none had been produced.

I think the Plame outing had more to do with dismantling the network of people who accurately assess the WMD's of Middle East countries as a "personal revenge" against Wilson. Busco wanted their own assessments to determine their war strategy. It's hard to overlook the timing, however, of the Plame/Kelly incidents in the context you present in your post.

[flyarm]

61. he also emailed and said he couldn't wait to go back to Iraq

but he had to wait till after early Sept because his first born daughter was getting married..

a father does not commit suicide 1 1/2 months before his daughters wedding..doesn't happen folks..not a fater of a daughter..

doesn't happen!

i will look for taht article in my files..i kept it all..

fly

[glitch]

5. suicides, heart attacks. I predict a spate of aneurisms and/or strokes

whether for (because really, who CAN you trust outside the family?) or against, dealing with the BFEE is bad for your longterm prospects.

[Stargazer99]

7. Dr.Kelly had e-mailed a friend the night he committed "sucicide"

telling that friend that he would meet him a week later in Iraq. Any shrink can tell you that is not a sign of someone thinking about sucicide. They murdered him plain and simple and only an idiot would figure otherwise.

[flyarm]

62. here is copy of email david kelly sent to judith miller pdf from

Hutton report..from my files..

but do look at the pdf file to see it ...fly


EMAIL OF JUDITH MILLER TO DR DAVID KELLY AND HIS REPLY TO JUDITH MILLER...PDF



http://www.the-hutton-inquiry.org.uk/content/com/com_4_0076.pdf

Loftus, Paul (LDR-LON)
From: David Kelly
Sent: 17 Jul
To: ,r
Subject: you
I will wait until the end of the week before judging - many dark actors playing games .
Thanks for your support I appreciate your friendship at this time .
Best,
David
-----0 i inal Mess e-----
From :
Sent : 16 July 2003 00 :30
To :
MIM Subjectyou
David,
I heard from another member of your fan club that things went well for you
today Hope it's true J

[flyarm]

63. from my files many many guardian articles about Dr. Kelly

this has many articles still avail at the Guardian news outlet on Dr. David Kelly


http://www.guardian.co.uk/weblog/special/0,10627,1002839,00.html

[NYC]

9. Recommended.

Thanks for posting this.

[Spazito]

10. I am glad this has not been allowed to be shoveled away...

kudos to Mr. Baker for keeping this alive. I do not believe that an adequate investigation was done on his death and, that alone, given Dr. Kelly's importance, should force a re-investigation, imo.

I have to say I am not holding my breath that it will happen.

[Rex]

11. Dark actors are fucking up our world and will continue to do so

unimpeded. :(

[Judi Lynn]

12. Really hoping we get a better investigation of this murder THIS time.

No one sensible bought the first finding. It would be a real sin to leave this again with the wrong explanation.

Although I've never seen it happen in my life, yet, I pray what goes around really DOES come around! There are some Neocons and their allies simply begging for an extended thumping.

[samsingh]

13. i don't think it was suicide.

[Canuckistanian]

14. Wow. What. A. Surprise.

I. Never. Would. have guessed. In a million years.

[Cha]

15. This would be so

very interesting if they could prove Dr Kelly didn't "commit suicide" afterall.

And who ever would want Dr Kelly DEAD?

[Prophet 451]

21. Everyone

Virtually the entire government at that point. Kelly was the Blair administration's top WMD guy. He's called to testify about the lack of WMD's in Iraq and, by extension, why we really went to war. He ends up being blamed for leaking to the BBC and, by extension, for the Beeb being overly hostile to the government (for which read, not pro-war enough). He shows up dead, shortly after having embaressed the government. The timing alone would make me suspicious but the reasons given for his suicide were absurd. We were told he was unused to testifying (which doesn't make sense, as a government adviser, he would have done so many times before) and that the nervousness essentially drove a seemingly healthy man with no history of suicidal tendancies and no external symptoms of depression to suicide? I'm not buying it.


Incidently, is anyone couting the number of people with potentially embaressing information about the Bush & Blair admins who've dropped dead lately?

[SmokingJacket]

17. A dull garden knife????

That's really shocking. A person committing suicide would at LEAST bring along a sharp knife. It's not like it's hard to find one.

[mopinko]

46. find one?

hell, most people contemplating suicide would have obsessively sharpened one, or two.

[SmokingJacket]

58. Exactly

He wouldn't randomly grab whatever implement was at hand. Makes no sense at all.

[Peace Patriot]

19. Here's the time-line that got me going...

July 14, 2003: Valerie Plame outed (by Novak).

July 18, 2003: David Kelly found dead, under highly suspicious circumstances; his office and computers are searched.

July 22, 2003: Novaks ADDITIONALLY outed the entire CIA WMD counter-proliferation network that Plame headed, Brewster-Jennings, putting all of its covert agents/contacts at risk of getting killed, and disabling all projects.

My theory: They were trying to PLANT nukes in Iraq, after the invasion (possbly to be "found" by the troops J Miller was embedded with); got foiled; thought Plame had foiled them (maybe she or her network did); outed her; Kelly was just then being interrogated at a "safe house" and threatened with the Official Secrets Act (week of July 1-7); he'd been whistleblowing anonymously to the BBC about the "sexed up" prewar intel; he got mysteriously outed to his bosses in late June (Miller?); in the interrogation, they found out he knew about the planted nukes and the foiling of it (evidence in the Hutton Report suggests Blair might have learned what Kelly knew on July 7); they outed Plame (July 14), offed Kelly (July 17-18), found out more from his docs/computer, and outed the entire BJ network (July 22).

A lot of people don't know there was a SECOND outing, July 22, of BJ (in a second Novak column). That was the killer--in terms of hostile parties being able to identify covert agents/contacts in their weapons programs.

Some of this theory is spec. Some is supported. But that time-line is just too much coincidence. Plame outed; four days later, Kelly dead; then BJ outed.

[lovuian]

20. This man didn't commit suicide...just like Baxter didn't

its pretty obvious ...

[Pooka Fey]

22. K&R

[VegasWolf]

23. Bush and his admin's fingerprints are all over this murder. nt

[NoodleyAppendage]

24. Murdered to silence evidence of botched WMD planting effort by US/Britain

At some point it will come out that Kelly was privvy to information/evidence of US/Britain led efforts to plant WMD to quelch critics, but that this plan was thwarted by CIA not in the loop. If word/evidence was found of purposeful planting of evidence, both Chimp and Poodle would have been removed from office or not elected to continued terms in office.

See here for more info... http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Secretive_military_unit_sought_to_solve_0105.html

J

[Matilda]

32. William Blum summed it up:

"No matter how paranoid or conspiracy-minded you are, what the government
is doing is worse than you imagine."

Too right.

[SupplyConcerns]

25. Thom Yorke's written a haunting song about it

Called "Harrowdown Hill". It's really worth hearing.

[SupplyConcerns]

26. Thom Yorke's written a haunting song about it

Called "Harrowdown Hill". It's really worth hearing.

[biscotti]

28. Another good article in the

Australian
British MP doubts Kelly suicide
July 23, 2006
AN Opposition member of the British Parliament has alleged that a Government scientist who cast doubt on intelligence about Iraqi weapons of mass destruction may not have taken his own life.
A judicial inquiry into the death of David Kelly in July 2003 concluded that the one-time UN weapons inspector and expert on Saddam Hussein's weapons programs committed suicide.

He did so after he was named as the source of a BBC news report suggesting that Prime Minister Tony Blair's government had "sexed up" intelligence in the run-up to the invasion of Iraq four months earlier.

"Today, I challenge that conclusion," wrote Norman Baker, from the smaller opposition Liberal Democrats, in the Mail on Sunday newspaper.
snip:
In 2003, Baker said, Kelly was the only person recorded to have taken his or her own life in this fashion.

Baker also said that paramedics who attended the scene where Kelly's body was found in Oxfordshire noticed that he had lost little blood and was "incredibly unlikely" to have died from the wound they saw.

Police said that 29 tablets of painkiller coproxamol were missing from a packet in his home, but all that was found in Dr Kelly's stomach was the equivalent of one-fifth of a tablet, Baker said.

Volunteer searchers who found his body said he was slumped against a tree, rather than lying prone, as police stated.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,19882747-23109,00.html

[struggle4progress]

29. " ... Wrist slashing by itself is not a very effective means of committing

... suicide and few people actually die of it. This is especially true if the victim cuts laterally across the wrist. He or she may do substantial damage to the important tendons which control the fingers. He or she may even cut an important artery or vein but the blood vessels will immediately draw back into the muscles surrounding them, effectively sealing off any major leakage of blood.

It is possible for a person to cut longitudinally along the wrist, laying open several important blood vessels along their length. This has been an effective means of causing enough blood loss to cause death. Even so it is not a sure method of killing oneself. If combined with other methods, such as drug overdose, loss of blood can contribute to death.

Since the cutting of a wrist is a somewhat painful event, it is normal to see some hesitation marks under or parallel to the final deep cut.

Knife wounds on the arms should be analyzed to determine if they are consistent with a suicide attempt or some other means of infliction. It is not at all unusual in a homicidal stabbing or attempted stabbing for the victim to have defensive cuts on his hands or arms. Defensive cuts tend to be deep and severe ..."

http://dmmoyle.com/simeans.htm

[fooj]

31. Truth is our most powerful weapon!

[me b zola]

34. k&r

[Skarbrowe]

35. I will always remember David Kelly's eyes at his "tribunal".

I watched it on the news, I think, before he committed suicide. That might be wrong. It was absolutely chilling the way Kelly looked at the men who were questioning him. I could swear he was seeing something we were not. A warning had to be sent out to silence anyone contradicting the British and U.S. versions of events leading up to the war in Iraq. I can't help but believe Kelly knew what his fate might be. He obviously knew a lot more than Joe Wilson knew and would have to be more than merely discredited.

I've never forgotten David Kelly. I will never, ever forget the look in his eyes. He SAW something and it was horribly frightening.

I hope they find out the truth of his death.

[Peace Patriot]

43. Just want to say, Skarbrowe, that I felt something, too--something

haunting about him. What it said to me was: "Don't forget me. I tried to do right, I tried to set things right. But I am trapped. I cannot speak." Both his painfully haunted--or hunted--look said this, and all the circumstances reinforced it. I studied the thing in detail, and have been hoping against hope for two years that some good investigator would take it up. I don't have that capability, but I sure think it merits a full investigation. My interest was furthered by my discovery (I think I was the first, maybe not--the first to point it out here at DU anyway) of the remarkable coincidence of dates with the Plame outing. Both WMD top experts. Both neutralized in the same week. Plame, outed July 14, 2003. Kelly found dead, July 18, 2003, four days later. All about WMDs, the war, and Bush/Blair lies.

If David Kelly did what I think he did (helped to prevent Bush/Blair from planting WMDs in Iraq), we have him to thank for whatever chance we have to oust the Bush junta and end this war before it becomes WW III. If the scheme I think they are guilty of had succeeded--if they had successfully planted and then "found" WMDs in Iraq--their political position would have been so cemented that we could not oust them. It's going to be difficult as it is. It would have been impossible if they had succeeded in falsely convincing the world that they were justified in that invasion. And if that's what Kelly did--foiled that scheme--I hope we can some day honor him for it. His courage as an inside whistleblower on the "sexed up" prewar WMD intel is sufficient to earn him a place in history (if we have a history). I suspect that he was even more courageous than that.

[bennywhale]

52. The frighteneing thing about deaths like this is

the way they sow doubts in peoples mind. I don't know whether he was murdered but it wouldn't surprise me. I bet thats how most people feel, including top investigative journalists.

Why are they so subservient, its the atmosphere of fear. I'm not saying they all think they will be murdered but their careers could be in trouble and their reputations.

BUT if they get something that could destroy not just a government but a system an entire cabal of very very powerful people as were the actors involved in Iraq, the thought that they may end up dead will cross their minds, then they'll think of their families, then they'll back off. That obviously goes for people inside the corridors of power as well ie David Kelly. the official secrets act is not just a document it could be a death warrant.

The state has the monopoly on the legitimate use of violence within its borders. It will and has used it.

One mans death versus the entire shaping of the ME. There is no contest

[Skarbrowe]

70. Yes, Peace Patriot, a ton of answers are buried with David Kelly.

You can look at it several different ways, but it all boils down to the fact that if he did commit suicide, he did it out of fear of something worse than death or possibly total disillusionment with the world he was now seeing all around him. He may have been murdered to keep him from saying anything more than he said, or even worse, if he was murdered, he could have been to simply send a message. My gut tells me that it was the realization that he was now dealing with people in his own government and the government of the U.S. that would have no problem getting rid of him for his audacity to speak of "sexed up intelligence". When you think about, there were an awful lot of people who felt that the intelligence leading up to the war was faulty as hell. It didn't really seem like that big of deal to me at the time. If he didn't know something more, like you mentioned about us planting WMD, which I have to admit I have never really thought of, then it's even more diabolical that he would either commit suicide or be murdered for the using some back channels to get information that was already guessed at by most of the thinking world. His information wasn't guess work and it caused him his life one way or the other.

I agree with you, if we have a history, David Kelly should be at the start of the unraveling of this hideous administration. Sadly, I don't think we will get them out of office before their end of terms and I have no idea of how badly things will get before that happens. It certainly isn't looking good at the moment.

[JohnyCanuck]

36. Remember when the results of the inquiry into Kelly's

death were first released and a few DUers (myself included) brought up the possibility that this was murder and not suicide and pointed out that it appeared the UK government had forced a suicide verdict to avoid having to fully account for all the factors surrounding Kelly's death. In at least one thread, I linked to a story in a UK newspaper where several licensed and qualified medical practioners made the point that it was extremely unlikey that Kelly could have killed himself in the manner suggested by the authorities. Of course the usual government believing, coincidence theorists came out of the woodwork to assure us we were all nuts, conspiracies like that just didn't happen.

[GeorgeGist]

38. Remember this Suskind quote.

"...which I now believe gets to the very heart of the Bush presidency.

The aide said that guys like me were "in what we call the reality-based community," which he defined as people who "believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality." I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. "That's not the way the world really works anymore," he continued. "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality - judiciously, as you will - we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do."

[Burried News]

39. There are two arteries feeding the hand. The Ulnar is by far the

smaller of the two. I question that one could bleed to death from its laceration. Dr. Kelley was an educated man in the sciences and a meticulous one as well. If he were intent on suicide he would have cut the radial artery.



In any event Dr. Kelley's death needs to be re-examined. He was under extreme pressure to go along with a War Fraud and could have been a potential witness against those who perpetrated it.

[DemReadingDU]

40. K&R

[cascadiance]

50. K&R...

We simply have to hold someone accountable for this! We need the mafia OUT of our government!

[drm604]

54. I'm no conspiracy theorist.

I believe in Occam's razor. For example, I don't buy the "Loose Change" theories. But Occam's razor can cut both ways. This "suicide", (along with the Enron related deaths and the election fraud) is an instance of it cutting the other way, in my mind. The official story seems less likely than the "conspiracy".

So, one more time: :tinfoilhat: (I'm putting that hat on way too often lately!)

[Peace Patriot]

56. I agree about Occam's razor. That Kelly was killed for what he knew (and

hadn't yet said), rather than despaired and committed suicide because he just couldn't handle being in the middle of a controversy (a man who had stared down Saddam Hussein and the Russians on WMDs!) is the simpler and more all-encompassing solution. The former solution clears up many puzzling details.

Here's another one: Kelly was looking forward to his daughter's wedding in the fall (stated in his last emails on July 17). He was a loving father. If such a man were contemplating suicide, wouldn't he wait until AFTER his daughter's wedding? Would he spoil his beloved daughter's wedding with his own suicide? If nothing else could stay his hand, wouldn't that do it--thinking of his daughter's future, which will be ever associated with his despair and self-killing?

That's where Occam's razor becomes very sharp for me. I suppose you could explain it away--like everything else that has to be explained away in this case, to come up with a conclusion of suicide. (Possible explanation--his family was under threat. By removing himself, he was removing the threat.) Still, that's one "explanation" too many, for me. That--and the failure of Kelly's watchers to rescue him from bleeding to death all night under a tree near his home (for they surely had him under surveillance)--confirms the simpler explanation. He was murdered. And we need to know why.

[drm604]

57. "Possible explanation--his family was under threat."

You're correct that that is one explanation too many. And even if it were true, it's just as damning as the murder theory. What did he know that would cause his family to be under threat?

[flyarm]

68. excuse me but Dr Kelly wrote an email to someone saying he wanted

to go back to Iraq soon..but he had to wait until his first born daughters wedding he was going to walk her down the isle..in her wedding..

i am trying to find that article in my files..i believe i kept it..

but a father anticipating his daughters wedding 1 1/2 months later..does not commit suicide!

especially when he wrote he wanted to go to iraq..soon ..but had to wait until his daughters wedding took place!

fly

[flyarm]

67. or what he did say ..and the powers that be didn't want it to see

the light of day..with Dr.Kelly dead..no one will ever be the wiser!

and do remember he died shortly after Joe Wilson wrote the NYT editorial..

they couldn't possibly risk Dr kelly on the loose now could they ..when they were lying their asses off about Joe Wilson and Valerie Plame now could they??

fly

[flyarm]

66. read my post #64..a must read!!

this is in subject line..

show me where paramedics come out and speak out over

[savemefromdumbya]

59. Dr Kelly doesn't have a small plane

so it is the old method of assassination

[troubleinwinter]

60. Reco # 62.

[flyarm]

71. The Murder of Dr. David Kelly: Alex Jones Interviews Michael Shrimpton

http://www.prisonplanet.com/022404shrimpton.html

The Murder of Dr. David Kelly: Alex Jones Interviews Michael Shrimpton

Shocking new details about the death of Dr David Kelly emerged exclusively today on the Alex Jones radio show. Michael Shrimpton, a UK national security lawyer who was a guest on the show, revealed that sources within MI5 and MI6 are `furious' that Kelly was murdered.

'Kelly was Murdered' Says UK Intelligence Insider

http://www.prisonplanet.com/022304kellywasmurdered.html

[Peace Patriot]

74. I don't know. I'm thinking this is disinformation (misdirection).

Shrimpton says M15 and M16 are "furious" that David Kelly was murdered, didn't have anything to do with it, and it was done by some French and Iraqi hit team.

Right.

Well, anyway, that's my first instinct. Disclosure is coming, and they're running for cover, getting some stories out there. I suppose it's possible the Blairites circumvented their own intel groups (much as Rumsfeld/Cheney have sought to circumvent the CIA), and used a foreign team. I've wondered about an English white guy insider getting hit like this. It's possible M15/16 balked at it, or the Blairites knew they would, BUT--would M15/16 permit a French/Iraqi team to operate in their country? And where was their surveillance of Kellly?

Nope, I'm not buying it. I actually laughed when he said it was the French. Thought it over. And now I'm laughing again. M15/16 let the French off their top weapons guy?

[Monkey see Monkey Do]

75. Shrimpton is a right-wing loon

He's of the Laurie Mylroie school of conspiracy theorist neo-con. IIRC one of his specialities is how Iraq was partly behind the USS Cole bombing.

[Peace Patriot]

73. There is another "Mata Hari" in this story--Mae Pedersen, USAF Sgt,

graduated from spy school, Kuwaiti-born, Arab speaker; her former husbands say she is dazzlingly beautiful, handy with a gun, trained to lure anyone useful to Military intel, gone for months at a time on assignments; was a last minute sub on the UN weapons team in Iraq in '98, befriended Kelly there, converted him to the Ba'hai faith; he then attended Ba'hai meetings in Monterey, CA, while she did something or other at a nearby spy school; she was introduced at the Ba'hai meetings as his "spiritual mentor"; the London Times revealed her friendship with Kelly during the Hutton inquiry, but she never testified and seems to have vanished at that point; she is quoted as having said that Kelly would never commit suicide.

The Ba'hai faith has religious and property interests in Iraq and Iran, and its leaders covered up an apparent disclosure by Kelly at a Ba'hai meeting in England (Oct '02) of his discomfort with the WMD intel interpretation in the Blairites' "Dodgy Dossier" (the one that uses the Niger forgeries--that Bush relied on in SOTU speech--and that says Saddam could deliver missiles with chem/bio weapons to England in 45 minutes; Kelly especially objected to the latter). Ba'hai leaders denied that Kelly said this at the meeting; but the 30 participants and the hosts say otherwise.

(Note: This matter did come up in the Hutton inquiry. Mrs. Kelly was asked about it. She said, yes, Mae Pedersen converted her husband to Ba'hai; she didn't know much about it--David kept it "privately to himself"--and Pedersen became a "family friend.")

Sounds like Mae Pedersen was spying on him. Could she have been the one who outed him to his bosses? As his "spiritual mentor," she might have been in a better position to know of his reservations about the "Dodgy Dossier," and, when the BBC reports were broadcast, to connect them with Kelly. (The email exchange between Kelly and Judith Miller, on his death day, July 17, sounds rather cryptic and cool to me now.* Hard to tell from this email if they were in close communication. The timeframe would have been late May/early June, for when someone told Kelly that his bosses suspected he was the BBC whistleblower; he was surprised by this, and promptly wrote them a letter disclosing his media contacts and saying he didn't think he was the source.) (--probably very worried about his career at that point; he was, indeed, the source).

http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/KellyMai.htm

---------

*The email...

(note: Judith Miller's name is redacted at this source: http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/David_Kelly. It is linked (a pdf) in the list of "References" at the bottom of the page. She has since admitted receiving it. It was disclosed first by his family, not by her. She signs it "J."

From: David Kelly
Sent: 17 July 2003 11 18
To: (Judith Miller--redacted)
Subject: you
I will wait until the end of the week before judging - many dark actors playing games . Thanks for your support I appreciate your friendship at this time . Best, David

-----Original Message----
From : (Judith Miller--redacted)
Sent : 16 July 2003 00 :30
To : (David Kelly--redacted)
Subject: you
David,
I heard from another member of your fan club that things went well for you today Hope it's true J

---------------------

She is referring to his testimony at the Parliamentary Defence committee, the day before he was found dead, where he half-recanted his "sexed up" intel accusation, and tried his best to throw suspicion off himself (as the whistleblower). Kelly was clearly under duress during this testimony--many reports of that. He spoke so softly they had to turn off the air conditioning (on a hot day) to hear him. He was roughly and disrespectfully questioned. He looks angry--haunted, hunted. It was after this forced testimony (he was pressured to do it, under threat of the charges against him under the Official Secrets Act) that the Government let him go home without protection, and, if the official story is to be believed, without surveillance (nothing ever said about this, but if they were watching him--and surely they were--why didn't they stop his "suicide"?).

So, Miller had a spy ("another member of your fan club") reporting to her. "Things went well"--sounds a little strange now, given his demeanor in the hearing, and what was about to happen (his death). Could "another member of your fan club" be Mai Pedersen? It sounds like a veiled reference to "female fan club."

Kelly's reply--"thanks for your support I appreciate your friendship at this time"--sounds almost dismissive. The "many dark actors" comment is the only thing that sounds like words to a close colleague, someone who would know what he is talking about. It's curiously cryptic. A comment like that seems to cry out for more--some kind of explanation, or further thought. She comes on all cheerful. He replies with "dark actors." Is he saying (translating him) that he knows that SHE is one of the "dark actors"? She had just been participating in the outing of Plame. He possibly knew Plame had been outed. (--3 days before; possibly not; consumed with his own situation?). But he surely knew that Miller was the NYT's chief war propagandist, and had been with the troops "hunting" for WMDs in Iraq. If what he knew, at this point, was that the Bushites had tried to PLANT nukes in Iraq--with Miller possibly set up to "find" them--he would not be inclined to say much to her, and he doesn't. (His emails to others are chattier--about his daughter's wedding, etc.) To her, he just negates her optimism and politely signs off, with a possibly ironical comment ("your friendship at this time").

Miller had Pentagon connections. Her embed contract in Iraq was reportedly signed by Donald Rumsfeld himself. She used these connections to greatly annoy the US commanders in the field who were looking for the WMDs. They complained about her in news articles--that she was ordering them around.

Mae Pedersen was also well-connected in the Pentagon. She had Top Secret clearance, and was given important assignments, like taking undercover personnel around in Mideast countries. Were they working together--Miller and Pedersen? That is the natural suspicion--both cozying up very close to David Kelly, UN weapons inspector and England's top bio/chem weapons expert. One writing a book with him. The other appealing to his spiritual side and reeling him into Ba'hai (a tiny, elitist religion that was banned in Iraq and Iran). All this makes Kelly sound malleable, but that was not at all his reputation. Ba'hai teachings are very antiwar, by the way. But so is Christian teaching. There is a fundamentalist movement within Ba'Hai that might well have had an interest in new access to Iraq and Iran.

Then there's Valerie Plame and the CIA Brewster-Jennings network--hated by the Bush junta for reasons we can only speculate upon. Kelly, Miller and presumably Pedersen, all working on the side of the warmongers, until Kelly, seized by his conscience, suddenly breaks away from them and acts on his own to whistleblow on the "Dodgy Dossier"--putting him on the side of the honest CIA professionals who had been trying to prevent an unnecessary war.

I do hope we have a real Sherlock Holmes out there somewhere, who can put this all together (and not cover it up, as Holmes sometimes did, for the British Crown).

It needs a great investigative mind.

[jollyreaper2112]

77. question

My only quesiton: if you're going to suicide someone, why do so in a manner that would raise questions? You want to avoid brusing and signs of a struggle, right? So however you manage that, you then want to pick a suicide method that looks plausible. Two bullets to the head starts to raise questions. Cutting the guy's head off, that raises questions. Using a blunt knife to sever a deep vein, that raises questions.

So the next question, is it out of the question? Seppeku seems pretty unlikely but the Japanese have a thing for it. Brutus' wife, Portia, allegedly swallowed hot coals. So people can choose some nasty suicide methods. But would he? Being a scientist, I'd expect something like a garden hose from the exhaust into the car. Something painless, 100% effective, the kind of thing a smart man would come up with. The favorite method the internet suicide groups have come up with is a pup tent filled with nitrous oxide, you just drift into sleep and don't wake up.

So are the killers just sloppy or stupid in this scenario? I'm trying to imagine how it would go down. You approach the guy, he's going to struggle. Grabbing the wrists to restrain him, that's got to cause bruising. The man is fighting for his life. Clothes torn, a struggle. Do you use some chemical to knock him out immediately? Would that chemical show up in his bloodstream? Would it be the kind of thing nobody would look for and would be broken down in 24 hours? Would it be present in his body if it were exhumed today?

On one hand, I think just about every government has people in it that are amoral enough to order something like this. On the other hand, I think that a great many people are very, very stupid. We hear about all sorts of botched plots and so on. Then again, we only hear about the guys who screwed up and got caught. So I don't know what to think.

[KoKo]

78. Kick...interesting info background on this thread..........n/t

[krkaufman]

79. Wellstone.