Blackouts as US temperatures soar

[bennywhale]

"Hundreds of thousands of people in different parts of the US continue to be affected by power outages as temperatures soar to record highs.

In California, where temperatures reached 50C (122F) in places, the heat was blamed for at least four deaths.

The power grid was unable to cope with the increased demand for electricity, leading to widespread cuts."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/5209276.stm

The last bit about demand for electricity soaring as temperatures got too hot exemplifies why the planet is doomed i'm afraid. people are just not making the link between their lifestyles and global warming. The hotter it gets the more aircon goes on the more our gluttonous pampered lifestyle pollutes and warms the earth (the more aircon we switch on.....)

Its obvously not aircons fault entirely, but it is indicitive of the tipping pint we are reaching and American lifestyles taking us towards it

Does anyone give a shit????? i doubt it, lets get an ice machine and a new refridgerator.

[bennywhale]

1. Does anyone give a shit about global warming?????

[Lorien]

36. I certainly do, and I understand your frustration

The right scoffs at climate change while a large portion of the Left gives the topic a huge collective yawn. Post a story on DU about how someone was asked not to wear an anti-bush T-shirt on an airplane or in a shopping mall and you'll see HUNDREDS of outraged posts, but the extinction of the human species, along with most life on earth? Booooring (or so the responses would indicate). Try posting a thread about biodiversity loss, or the massive deforestation being caused by beef farmers, Kleenex and Office Max. Will most here feel outraged and give up beef, or boycott Office Max and Kleenex products? No way. Our survival isn't worth forgoing burgers and steak, or cushy soft TP and facial tissues. Most also wrongly assume that another generation will pay the price for the American lifestyle. No so. We're already seeing the beginning of the effects, and the future-NEAR future- will be far, far worse. We won't be able to grow crops. Remaining forests will die out, which may effect our ability to BREATHE. Climate change means far more than rising sea levels, increased storms, and hotter temperatures.

I, too, believe that we have very little time left, but that doesn't mean that I don't do all I can to fight against global warming's worst offenders. I've changed my lifestyle to attempt to live sustainably. I don't have kids because I don't believe that any child born today will live to see 40, but that doesn't stop me from fighting for everyone else's kids so that they might see 30! It may be a losing battle, but it's still the most important battle that can be fought.

[bennywhale]

66. Well done to you. I agree that people get really passionate about

trivial things but something complex that needs serious debate and exploration followed by political action and energy just turns people off.

That is depressing because this problem is multi-headed and there is a lot to know. But fundamentally we all need to make the change and try.

Keep it up, there are some of us who try. Good luck!!!!!

[saigon68]

129. They'd better Fucking deal with this Shit

http://www.unionfacts.com/ads.cfm

I saw this ad on TV last night

[Threedifferentones]

73. People have to feel pain from their mistakes to

truly learn from them. If (and its looking more and more like when) 1/2 of humanity is wiped out by rising sea levels and drastic climate changes, people will realize how stupid we're being.

[redqueen]

42. Most in red states do not give a shit.

They tell me "that doesn't affect me".

So... no. They don't. Maybe if we got some blackouts down here they might... but chances are the Glen Beck and Rush Limbaugh would tell them it was somehow the liberals fault, and these idiots would swallow it hook, line, and sinker.

Makes it easier for them to continue with their mindless-shopping-as-a-hobby and being-dumb-as-a-box-of-rocks lifestyles, guilt-free.

[freeplessinseattle]

2. well, heat isn't just uncomfortable

it can cause very real health problems, and even be deadly. why don't people who use heat in the winter get criticized? sheesh, why blame the people trying to just get through the day without collapsing, plus leaving for work with clothes already soaked through with sweat isn't all that professional. why not encourage other big power suckers to cut down, like businesses with huge neon signs, or automatic dishwashers, encouraging people to use the oven less, shorten dryer time by hanging up clothes, etc? suffering shouldn't be a virtue.

[Spider Jerusalem]

3. Why don't people die by the millions in India every summer, then?

Air conditioning is largely unknown there, temperatures in many parts of the country are regularly over 100F, and they seem to do all right. I submit that your response is nonsense.

[freeplessinseattle]

4. um, acclimation? valid and researched

I know heat can make people cranky, so I'll forgive your rudeness.

[Spider Jerusalem]

6. It's only 72F here.

And I'm not in the least bit cranky. I just find your opinion that people ought to be allowed to continue to engage in patently environmentally unsound behaviour on grounds of personal convenience and comfort to be based upon absurdist logic.

'The good of the many outweighs the needs of the few.'

[GliderGuider]

8. freeplessinseattle has a valid point

There are large power users that could provide a much greater reduction through conservation measures than could be acjhieved by turning off individual air conditioners. There's a fundamental problem though: the largest benefit comes through influencing the largest users, but their behaviour is also the hardest to change. It's easy to attack the problem from the bottom up, because indivuals are the easiest to influence. In terms of achieving the greatest benefit for the least suffering, though, the big lit billboards and illuminated office buildings with computers running 24/7 at every desk would seem to be the highest value targets.

[Spider Jerusalem]

9. Not to mention...

the thousands or, more likely, tens of thousands of 24-hour convenience stores, supermarkets, et cetera, all over the US (but THAT would also require some accomodation and lifestyle change on the part of a public who often seem reluctant to make such changes).

[silverojo]

51. Whoa, whoa, whoa!

If it weren't for 24-hour supermarkets, people would be using more A/C in their cars (increasing emissions!) when forced to shop during the day.

And please don't suggest shopping in the "evening". In truly hot areas (like the desert, where I live), our overnight "lows" are in the mid-90's, so you have to wait till after MIDNIGHT before you can drive without your A/C.

If anything, MORE businesses ought to be open for different hours, to reduce traffic during times when A/C must be used. Imagine a library opening at 6am instead of 10am (when it's already 105 outside), closing during the hottest hours of the day (when most people are at work, anyway), then re-opening in the evening. That would involve only a handful of employees driving, rather than hundreds of patrons whose cars are belching more pollution into the air because they have to have the A/C on "max".

Offices ought to offer different shifts to eliminate "rush hours". Here in the desert, and in Tornado Alley in the Midwest, storms tend to strike during the afternoon rush hour, so that would reduce accidents by reducing the number of drivers on the road.

Those considerations aside...it's pretty important that 24-hour stores, pharmacies, and the like are around, to enable people to get the emergency items they can't wait to have. "Little" things like medicine, food, etc., are too important to put off.

Oh, yeah...there are people who do shift work, and can't make it to the stores during regular business hours.....

If you really want to make a difference YOURSELF (instead of preaching to others what THEY should do), try doing some of the things that our family routinely does:

* Stop using your clothes dryer during the warmer months. Get a clothesline.

* Stop wasting electricity and water with your dishwasher. Get off your lazy butt and wash dishes at the sink. And have the kids dry them, when you're done.

* Don't pollute the air by barbecuing...make a simple solar oven and let the sun make great-tasting food (I made mine from a cardboard box lined with aluminum foil).

* Whenever possible, avoid traveling during the hottest parts of the day, so you can leave the A/C off in your car. Cars use a lot more gas when the A/C is running.

* Also, while you're in your car, SLOW DOWN. Higher speeds consume higher quantities of gas. Speed limit signs are there for a reason; grow up and obey them.

* Buy an electric or manual lawnmower, an electric leafblower (or how about a broom and a rake--remember those?!), and an electric weedeater...and if you can't use them yourself, hire people who will use them for you. Gas-powered lawn tools are so 1980's. Your neighbors will also appreciate not having your dead leaves scattered all over THEIR yards....

* Turn your thermostat up in the summer to reduce energy consumption. Ours is set at 80 degrees...what's yours?

There's any number of things you can do...that's REAL lifestyle change. Scour frugal websites for inspiration, and stop expecting everyone else to do the changing. If you want to see change, change YOUR lifestyle, first.

[bennywhale]

63. you have to wait till after MIDNIGHT before you can drive without your

aircon" TOTAL CRAP. it may be slightly more uncomfortable without aircon, but think what people did in the past and think about the rest of the world. they don't have aircon, they deal with it.

The US is too pampered.

[Dora]

72. Crap is as crap believes.

Yeah, the U.S. is too pampered, but that in no way disproves the fact that Phoenix is fucking hot, and that driving without air conditioning really is difficult, especially when most people have commutes of at least an hour to and from work. Back in the day (like the 1960s) when it took 15 minutes to get to work, your criticism might be more relevant, but well... it's not.

[bennywhale]

108. The claim that you have to wait till midnight is

still crap as you've just admitted. You also allude to the real problem when you say its 'difficult', because thats the crux. It may be uncomfortable and an inconvenience but there is ways of dealing with it. And in the face of what is happening to the world we need to adjust our lifestyles.

Anyway i don't want to argue, just to make people thik about their approach to life. We need to adjust our thinking and lifestyles, because global warming is going to more than uncomfortable, its going to kill millions and destroy much of the world as we know it.

[Dora]

125. Have you ever lived there?

You don't have to convince me of anything regarding energy consumption, trust me.

"There is ways of dealing" with lots of things. But asking a geriatric or poverty-stricken population to "adjust" when faced with 115-degree days for weeks on end is short-sighted and entirely discompassionate.

People on all sides sure do have their blinders on.

[martymar64]

154. My car has no A/C and I live in Texas!

Open your car windows and use the wind!

[kittenpants]

155. actually, driving with your windows down uses more gas

than driving with the air on (at least at high speeds) because of the drag it creates...you just can't win!;)

[bennywhale]

67. I agree with most of those, and particularly the clothes line

that for me is common sense and a necessity, i've never had a dryer. However you have made the same mistake as me. Its actually worse for the environment to fill the sink with hot water than it is to use your dishwasher. Wash with warm water OR use the dishwasher.

Other than that keep up the good work.

[Spider Jerusalem]

70. Pot, kettle, black.

Engaging in a bit of preaching there yourself.

Thanks for making a tremendous number of totally unfounded assumptions about my lifestyle; most of your snide comments couched as suggestions are things I already DO.

And since you live in the desert, one HOPES that you don't actually have a lawn (since you talk about lawn tools, et cetera); seems like a selfish and totally unnecessary waste of a limited resource (water, that is).

[bennywhale]

11. "Be the change you want to see in the world" Ghandi. By people

altering their lifestyles to take account of global warming it sets the political and cultural tone to make further restrictions on businesses, particular massive carbon ommitters. Without the public knowing about the problem and addressing it they won't support restrictions on businesses or accept them.

Every time we switch on a light or drive our cars we are damaging the planet. we must accept that and adjust our lifestyles to minimise the impact. The age of gluttonous consumption must be over. There isn't an endless supply of everything.

There is cause and effect and WE are responsible for OUR planet. Think about that when leave the plugs on at night, drive an unneccessary journey or switch on the aircon.

we are all responsible and we've got to act now. Please do it dude

[GliderGuider]

16. Absolutely. Here is a suggestion for a major individual change

Every time an individual makes such a change it not only helps the physiical situation a little bit, it also gives their voice more moral authority in the discussion.

To that end, I'm well into what we in the Peak Oil movement call a "powerdown" - a reduction in your personal energy fotprint that saves both fuel and CO2 emissions. One of the things I just discovered that has the potential to make a huge difference, is buying a green energy contract for my home electricity. Here's how it works

I joined a regional green energy cooperative. I now pay them for my electicity instead of my local utility. They take my money and buy the power I need from certified green producers, and that power gets fed into the grid. I continue to take my power from the grid like normal. The green supplier pays my grid bill, and the differential (~$1.00/day in my case) helps capitalize and operate green generating capacity, so my small proportion of the grid is now generating NO greenhouse gases. It's simple, easy, and will leverage economies of scale as more people buy into the idea.

The company I went with (Bullfrog Power in Ontario, Canada) has a generating profile of 80% micro-hydro and 20% wind. When I was buying power from my utility, my share of the grid capacity was generating 12 tonnes of CO2 per year, but using Bullfrog Power I generate NONE. For $1.00 a day it seems like a very good idea.

Add onto that the usual advice of reducing home electricity consumption by installing compact fluorescent lights, reducing A/C load, buying energy-efficient appliences, turning lights and computers off when not in use, etc. Then you trade down your car to something more sensible (in my case I went from a BMW 540i running on 94 octane to a VW Jetta TDI running on biodiesel), and then driving that as little as possible (e.g. bus to work). ASnd start buying your food from local producers so it doesn't all need to be shipped from Chile and California. And stop buying unnecessary plastic crap. Before you know it, you're saving money as well as reducing your energy footprint, and it doesn't hurt at all.

[mom cat]

31. Bravo. It takes some committment, but it is worth it. Besides, the

replacement planet is not ready yet!
Katrina is what really woke me up and shook me to the core. I vowed then to set the winter thermostat at 50F and not put in the air conditioners this summer.My heating bill for the whole winter was $625, and that is for a four bedroom house = finished attic. Yep! Only 300 gallons of biodiesel heating oil. I hope to shave it even more this year and work on improving cooling without a/c for next summer.

[Wednesdays]

45. Amen to that...

Most people don't realize that the overwhelming majority of a home's energy usage goes into heating and cooling, and that if they just switch to flourescent lights they're really cutting down own power consumption.

While it's well and good to go flourescent (I haven't used an incandescent bulb in years), the power pales in comparison to refrigerators, freezers, furnaces, hot water tanks, and air conditioners. People need to always look for ways to cut down on those. For example, I bought some small window air conditioners, and I use those to cool individual rooms as needed instead of cooling the whole house with a central air conditioner. This year, my air conditioning energy use is down 50% from last year, and total electricity use is down 30%.

[soup]

78. Lots of info here.

http://www.energystar.gov/

for example-

Home Electronics:

In the average home, 40% of all electricity used to power home electronics is consumed while the products are turned off. Across the US, this equals the annual output of 17 power plants.

Save Energy, Save Money
Home electronic products use energy when they're off to power features like clock displays and remote controls. Those that have earned the ENERGY STAR use as much as 50% less energy to perform these functions, while providing the same performance at the same price as less-efficient models. Less energy means you pay less on your energy bill.

Help Protect the Environment
Simple actions can make a big difference. The average home has roughly two TVs, a VCR, a DVD player and three telephones. If these items were replaced with ENERGY STAR models, it would save over 25 billion pounds of greenhouse gas emissions, the equivalent to taking over 3 million cars off the road.
http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?fuseaction=find_a_product.showProductCategory&pcw_code=HEF


on edit: OOPS! meant to respond to bennywhale's post below.

[mom cat]

81. Good idea. There is no reason to cool the whole house when you are only

in one room at a time.

[bennywhale]

65. good on ya. have you got any links

for that???

[GliderGuider]

124. Green power companies tend to be regional

Whether there are any in your area may also depend on what rules the power utilities have regading buying from small suppliers. To find the ones in your area, try Googling "green power company" or "green power cooperative" with the name of your state or province. Taking out such a contract is a lot easier than putting in your own PV or wind installation, especially if you live in a city where there are both physical and by-law obstacles.

If you can put in your own small green generation facility (wind, solar, micro-hydro or biomass), there are growing opportunities to sell the power directly into the grid at a higher price than you pay to take power out. These agreements are known as renewable energy feed-in tariffs -- also known as "Standard Offer Contracts" in Ontario. They are very popular in Europe as a means of encouraging distributed small-scale green electricity production.

So there you have two possibilities for green electricity. If neither is available in your area, start writing letters!

[kestrel91316]

22. Use of AC in 119 degree heat with 18 days over 100 is not

personal convenience and comfort. It's a lifesaver. Our heat wave here is unprecedented.

Driving cars less, using mass transit more, would allow us to use the AC and not make the greenhouse effect any worse, at least.

The San Fernando Valley, home to 1 million (two million if you count the undocumented hordes) has become virtually unliveable without AC within the past 15-20 years.

[silverojo]

52. You're absolutely right about that

Here in the west, the heat kills...and it's getting that way in other places, too.

That's why we need to find which lifestyle changes we can make in OUR lives, exchange ideas, and inspire others. Saying, "Don't use A/C" is just ignorant, because not everyone lives in that kind of climate. Adapt conservation for your region and your lifestyle, and we'll all be able to make a difference.

[bennywhale]

68. Aircon is a luxury mainly found inn the west

My grandma used to keep cool by sticking her feet in a bucket of water, or if out in the car, put a hat soaked in water on and drink water. Simple lifestyle change =- big difference.

[trogdor]

64. True, but...

...nobody told you to move there in the first place. Lots of people from places like Utica, New York, moved down south because the weather was nicer, and that's where the jobs went. So now it's hotter in the Sunbelt, and I bet lots of those people wish they never left the nice, cool Northeast.

Meanwhile, in the Northeast, we have had weather one might have associated more with the Ohio Valley 20 or 30 years ago. Most households up here run window units in the summer that get stored in the basement when summer's over. When we have to retrofit for central AC up here, you know we're all up shit creek.

[kestrel91316]

96. Don't be an ass. I moved here in 1983, when there were NO jobs to

speak of in my field anywhere else in the West, and the climate sure as hell wasn't like this then, or I never would have stayed. Now I am saddled by a business that would take a long time to sell, and restricted in what states I can practice in by licensure requirements.

BTW: I never LEFT the Northeast. I live out West and have virtually my entire life. And the WHOLE West has become an inferno.

[bennywhale]

110. Aircon is a luxury mainly found inn the west

My grandma used to keep cool by sticking her feet in a bucket of water, or if out in the car, put a hat soaked in water on and drink water. Simple lifestyle change =- big difference.

[Patchuli]

69. Elderly people die in the heat

We had deaths over the weekend in the Central Valley of California. If it's life or death, keep the air on for the vulnerable. We are not India for that matter and our society is different. We could do with a lot less of 'conveniences' however.

[bennywhale]

10. "Heat can make people cranky" Well fuck me that

justifies warming the planet so our kids and grandkids live in a simmering nightmare. That answer shows how far removed from reality much of the US is. Being cranky and sweating being unprofessional is such unbelievably isolated thinking. The US is not reality or the real world it has only 5% of the worlds population. The other 95% is the real world and you show a total disregard for their well being because you may get a little sweaty and cranky.

Jesus Christ look at what global warming is doing to the planet. people are dying in floods and landslides (due to melting perma frosts), peoples environments like the inuits are being destroyed, crops are failing and rains, people die from this and this is just the start.

You typify the American attitude to this global problem its ...fuck it, i'm hot.

The most pampered nation in history has been so comfortable for so long it does not now know what reality is and refuses to change its lifestyle. It is up to us.

"Be the change you want to see in the world" Ghandi

[cliss]

17. Your posts are great.

I agree with you, 100%.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[girl gone mad]

46. No need for all of the hysterics.

There is a simple solution which doesn't involve asking people to suffer through miserable heat waves at risk to their own health and quality of life.

The answer is toughening efficiency standards, not implementing unenforceable bans which target a specific appliance which you happen to have no use for.

[Star]

58. Have your cake and eat it too

We can maintain the same lifestyle (in general) if we just find alternative ways of generating the electricity we need, besides using fossil fuels.

For instance, here in SoCal, the temps get very hot in the summer, and lately its been humid, too. A/C is a necessity for many people (like my 88-year-old neighbor who has only 47% lung capacity due to asbestos poisoning).

So, why not put photovoltaic cells on the roof of every house here, and everyone can generate their own clean electricity, plus possibly provide extra electricity for others? Why not work to get the city council to require P/V cells be put on every new home?

Lets not get into the position of demonizing others for their preferred lifestyles, but rather lets find ways that people can maintain their lifestyles at low or no cost to the environment.

[yorkiemommie1]

90. i've been looking into that

do you know of any reputable firms in SoCal? Thanks for any info.

Have gone thru internet and yellow pages today also.

[Star]

112. Just started looking myself

After seeing An Inconvenient Truth, on a day when the temp here reached 111 degrees, I decided to start looking into it. I've found this one:

http://www.noelectricbill.com/residential.html

They have a calculator you can use to determine the size you need and the costs. They say a 2.0 kW system would cost about $8,800 after all rebates and incentives. That would provide me with about 60% of my present power usage. I don't know about their reliability, etc., yet though.

[yorkiemommie1]

157. i tried it too

i started looking in the yellow pages and will keep my ears open for referrals. will let you know if anyone i know has used a good company.

[bennywhale]

113. No it also takes an adjustment in lifestyle, Its a combined effort

combingin what you mention, with new technologies over. but we must recognise that this very short period of pampered and gluttonous consumption must come to an end, rather than be spread across the globe.

we need to face up to this inconvenient truth otherwise our children and grandchildren will suffer

[freeplessinseattle]

91. ok, it's not the heat then

whatever the reason, lack of compassion is evident, and while I thought the work clothes aspect might be more up your alley maybe like me it's not an issue. compassion and thinking outside the box, literally, could help the situation significantly.

[gorbal]

166. I would say Europeans were more "Pampered" per capita

Upper and upper middle class americans are quite pampered as well, but the middle and lower classes are having a harder and harder time affording to live. Screw air conditioners, I couldn't even afford one.

[noamnety]

71. That answer would suggest

That we could acclimate as well. (I'm not sure it supports the pro-AC argument as much as it was intended to.)

[GliderGuider]

5. In fact, heat deaths are climbing in India

The following is from a 2003 article regarding the European heat wave deaths of that usmmer:

Even in India, where heat-related fatalities in the thousands during pre-monsoonal high temperatures are no longer uncommon, the National Disaster Management Cell does not classify heat waves as a natural disaster. While accurate data are hard to come by, it appears that India has seen the number of deaths due to heat climb over the years as populations have grown and temperatures have risen. In May 2003, peak temperatures of 113-117 degrees Fahrenheit (45-49 degrees Celsius) claimed over 1,600 lives throughout the country. In the state of Andhra Pradesh alone, some 1,200 people died from the heat. A year earlier, a one-week heat wave with temperatures topping 122 degrees Fahrenheit took over 1,000 lives.

While the deaths are not in the "millions", it does indicate that India is indeed vulnerable to increased heat deaths as temperature excursions become more extreme.

[Uncle Joe]

13. Somebody needs to invent a solar powered air conditioner.

It seems the places that need air conditioning have the most sun, it sounds like a natural fit.

[GliderGuider]

18. Um, ground source heat pumps maybe?

They work really well if you have the right location.

I was in Toronto earlier this summer, and saw big signs announcing that whole city blocks are now being heated and cooled using geothermal loops into Lake Ontario. I wonder why this has taken so long to gain acceptance in lakeside and seaside cities?

[Tesha]

19. No invention is needed, just initiative.

There are already several perfectly-workable approaches:

o Run a conventional electrical AC unit using photovoltaics

o Run an "absorption" AC unit using direct heat from the sun

o Run a Sterling engine-powered mechanical AC unit using heat
from the sun.

Tesha

[Uncle Joe]

23. I wonder, what has been the main obstacle

that has prevented these approaches from already being put in use?

[Tesha]

26. Expense and inertia

The solar-electric approach is expensive in inital cost
(although it certainly has a positive payback over the
years, probably after ten years).

The absorption cooling and Stirling engine approaches
require that someone gamble their capital on a "new"
approach (that's not really new, but isn't already
backed by millions of dollars in marketing).

Shall we get started? ;-)

Tesha

[Uncle Joe]

28. This sounds like something

that could use a New Deal type of plan to help take some of the risk out of the equation. Personally I view global warming a step higher than national security as it threatens virtually the whole planet.

I would love to take you up on your offer tesha;-) thank you for answering my questions.:hi:

[BrightKnight]

34. Simply buy a $5K PV system w/ 25 year warranty

I imagine that a $5000 PV system would more that offset your annual A/C power consumption. High efficiency A/C units can easily cost a few k more that a standard units. PV would be far more effective use of the money.

Most utilities have to buy back your excess power. In Texas you do not have to pay taxes on the the increased property value from PV.

You could offset you annual household electricity usage for about $18K. Perhaps a more incremental approach is more realistic.
--

A law for all new construction requiring a $5k PV system for ever 100k of properly value would get the ball rolling.

[silverojo]

53. I'd LOVE a solar-powered A/C unit!

Especially since the A/C units are built on the roofs, in this region. I swear, if we could afford it (and if we owned this house, LOL), we'd get solar panels. It'd be so nice to use solar energy to help reduce our electric bills AND help take care of the planet in some small way.

[KittyWampus]

74. Um, TREES are natural air conditioners. US needs to rebuild cities

and include humanizing and climate moderating trees.

And IMO, Americans need to start leaving cities. Too many damned people. No room for their waste and too hard to deal with their energy needs.

[Uncle Joe]

75. I agree with you on the trees and the need for environmentally

sound cities, but where would the people go if you moved them? Living in the country or suburbs require more transportation fuel to get to work.

[KittyWampus]

84. guess we have to include mass transit into the mix!

:)

[sueragingroz]

86. Actually

When I took Sustainable Development (a course that was offered to me in Law School), I learned that the conventional wisdom indicates that it is better to live in cities than to sprawl out in suburbs or (Edited to say:) rural areas.

Believe it or not, it is much more efficient to meet the needs of those in cities with less energy.

In my life, I have lived in the following environments:

1) Rural Farm (in the middle of nowhere)
2) Suburbs (bulk of my life)
3) Inner City (downtown Toronto)
4) Hunk of rock in middle of ocean.

I would have to say that the two times in my life where I consumed the least energy were those spent in locations 3 and 4.

This is because when I was in Toronto, I walked to work or took transit. Also because I lived in a condo/apartment, I shared the energy with those around me in the building.

In Bermuda, I have learned to tolerate the heat. I also ride a scooter to and from work instead of a car. As I have stated in other posts, I find that I purchase fewer frivolous items, and consume less electricity. I would estimate that I consume similar amounts to what I consumed in the city - maybe less.

On my farm, when I eventually retire there, I hope to do the following to increase its efficiency:

1) Improve the insulation (winter gets to -40C and trust me -40C kills a hell of a lot faster than +40C)
2) Install a Windmill once the local utility figures out how to feed the surplus power back into the grid. That way, I will likely have a negative power bill each month.
3) Grow my own food - I have done that there already and have proven to myself that it is possible to do without undue energy consumption.

I personally find the suburbs to be the most environmentally unfriendly idea that has ever plagued this planet. When I grew up in the burbs, I was an oddity - I had a bike to get around. But even then, I spent a ridiculous amount of time as a passenger in a gas guzzler.

[TX-RAT]

130. Most out west could use evaporating units.

Our humidity usually runs below 20%, I've got refrigerated and evaporating cooling in my place. I run evaporating most of the time. I don't use refrigerated until the humidity gets up or it really gets hot ( 100 plus ). We get allot of 100 plus temps here in west TX.

[Beaverhausen]

39. Record breaking heat all over the US- don't compare it to India

get a grip. This is a highly unusal and long -lasting heatwave that we are trying to deal with here.

[silverojo]

40. The answer to that is easy

Architects in that region are quite skilled at designing homes that take advantage of the natural terrain, air movements, etc., to work with nature instead of against it.

I remember when it was 122 degrees in Phoenix, and there was a news story about an Arab (from which country, I don't recall) who designed his own house here...on that day, he only needed electric fans to keep the home very comfortable.

Did architects in this part of the country jump onto the bandwagon to figure out how to imitate his success?

Hell, no...that might involve allowing more than 6 feet of space between homes. :mad:

[maxsolomon]

47. Architect here

you have a distorted idea of the ability of architects to control the housing developers & builders.

you tell them how to build the home so it doesn't need AC, and that its neccessary for them to try & sell that house, when the house a block away has AC, they hire another architect who does as they're told.

certainly, climate adapted housing is possible in america, but the massive stock of homes built since WW2 have largely ignore climate in favor of power consumption. how would you retrofit these ticky tacky sweatboxes to cool without AC? can't be done.

"there's a mighty judgement coming, but i could be wrong" - LCohen, Tower of Song

[girl gone mad]

50. Have you been to India?

When I went, almost all of the houses I visited had AC, though usually it was limited to just one or two rooms in the house. People primarily hung out in those rooms. Just about everyone was complaining about the heat. Power outages were common due to the strain. This was a few years ago, but I hear from friends that AC is even more common now and the power situation is better in most places.

[gorbal]

164. Who says they don't?

Where did you hear they were not? There is famine and death all over the world.

[bennywhale]

12. "suffering shouldn't be a virtue" Oh come on!!!

Like Americans suffer. Its lack of aircon it ain't famine.

If you believe that people shouldn't suffer then why are you complicit in the suffering and potential suffering of millions around the world.

The US produces 27% of the worlds greenhouse gas ommissions with only 5% of its population. You are a part of that and we all must take responsibility. we must pressure government and companies to address it, organise protests, write to the media, but we must also alter our lifestyles otherwise we are complicit in deaths around the world.

[Bridget Burke]

21. Those who actually sicken & die from excess heat...

Are usually old and/or unhealthy. I'm sure some would consider this a valuable "thinning of the herd."

I don't.

[bennywhale]

24. Ok turn that aircon up dude

when history judges gluttonous, selfish America they won't judge it kindly

[Bridget Burke]

25. So you think the poor, older people should suffer for America's sins?

In Houston, these people often live in neighborhoods where keeping windows wide open 24/7 is not a good idea. And apartments with only a couple of windows can't be cooled by cross-ventilation. Gosh, they ought to take their SS checks & build new, green homes with solar panels! Or just move to a cooler part of the country.

I'm all for long term solutions to these problems, but don't get off when people die.

Houston does suck up lots of air conditioning in the summer. But we don't burn nearly as much energy in the winter as many US cities do. Where do YOU live?

And I'm not a "dude."

[Tesha]

27. Maybe people shouldn't live in Houston.

You've heard me say it before, but I'll say it again:

Maybe, in an ecologically-balanced, sustainable world,
people just aren't meant to live en masse in places like
Houston, 'Vegas, and Pheonix where they're missing some
key ingredient necessary for human life such as food,
water, and/or a temperate climate. Maybe these places
will need to be abandoned, at least for a while until
we get fusion power up-and-running.

Tesha

[azmouse]

32. To follow that thought further...

Maybe people shouldn't live in areas that require lots of heating in the winter either.

The population should all cram into a temperate area of the globe that requires neither cooling in the summer nor heating in the winter.

Of course, that raises the problem of where our food would be grown...

[Tesha]

33. Maybe!

> Maybe people shouldn't live in areas that require lots of heating in the winter either.

Maybe!

Then again, solar heat is workable, fairly-common technology,
whereas solar air conditioning isn't yet common. And I under-
stand that people have actually been known to heat using wood,
a reasonably-renewable resource assuming the area isn't over-
populated.

Tesha

[azmouse]

38. I use less energy cooling my home than some

in cold areas would use to heat their home. Time to abandon cold areas. And please realize that people that live in warm areas barely use heating at all in the winter. Maybe the equivalent of one week scattered throughout the winter is all my heat has to run... that rare time when the temps might dip into the 20's overnight.
The energy use does balance out throughtout the year.

There are ways to keep hot cities cooler that unfortunately are not being used. Ways like white coating roofs to make them more reflective, planting low water use trees and grass to shield parking lots, roadways and homes from the sun, better insulation and double-pane windows on older homes, etc. The less sunlight and heat absorbed during the day the cooler the city is at night.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bennywhale]

59. Buring wood for your energy needs is actually

one of the most environmentally friendly methods. This is because it has only dozens of years of carbon in it and therefore can only release a limited amount of carbon, and of course you can, with effort plant at a faster rate than you burn, thus soaking it back up. Using electricity from the mains is drawing it most likely from coal, with millions of years of carbon being released

[Bridget Burke]

116. Congratulations on using solar heat!

You do, of course?

If everybody from those horrible hot places moves to your area, the wood won't last very long.

[Bridget Burke]

35. Good--can we all move to New Hampshire?

Do you have jobs for all us Houstonians? Warning: We're not 100% white.

I'm glad that you can get through the winter without using energy!

[texanwitch]

41. The City of Houston has been here for a long time. I grew up without

AC until 7th grade, didn't have AC in school until high school.

Houston was built different back then, homes were built for the weather.

My old house was built in 1930, plenty of windows and if I lower my storm door window a lot of cool breeze blows though the house.

Homes had attic fans or window fans that kept homes cooler, homes today are built for AC.

Houston has lots of concrete everywhere, townhouses with no yards. All this makes for a hotter city.

In winter I never use any heat, never gets cold enough for me to turn on a heater.

[kestrel91316]

99. What's a "cool breeze"???

Here we got your "blast furnace", which is when the Santa Anas blow in the late summer/fall. And we got your frigid cold front winds in the winter, usually accompanied by biblical-class flooding.

Cool breezes would be nice.............

[silverojo]

55. Going by that way of thinking

No part of America would be inhabitable, because we "waste" too much energy keeping your sorry butt warm in the winter. :mad:

[Tesha]

83. Gee Jo, never heard of solar heating?

Or could you just not resist hurling the insult?

Tesha

[midnight]

87. Fusion power?

I'm not familiar with that, but why not harness the sun. I listened to a contractor speak at a conference on solar power years ago. He was from California, and said that he was installing solar.

[bennywhale]

60. Of course i don't think people should die for Americas sins, i just

think people should start taking this issue seriously, and give up the attitude that its an inconvenience. Maybe so, but it will be an inconvenience for the millions who become refugees and die because of this problem which the US is the main contributor.

My Grandma used to keep herself cool by sticking her feet in a bucket of cold water. problem solved

[kestrel91316]

100. We ALREADY put up with inconvenience when we virtually all set our

thermostats at 80 or so (sometimes in 85% humidity). We live with 85-90 in our homes when the AC simply can't keep up. 115+ is not "inconvenient". It's deadly. And it's something entirely new for us.

You come try it.

[bennywhale]

106. cold water n/t

[kestrel91316]

127. Ahem. We get HOT water out of BOTH taps for three months at a

stretch in the summer.

Right. We'll just use the REFRIGERATOR more.

[bennywhale]

128. Do you think America is the

world????

If not what do you think people in other parts of the world do??????

Do you think they whine about their pampered lifestyles, refridgerators and A/c???????

Think outside the box for christs sake.

Are you not prepared to do anything????

Any change in lifestyle????

do you just want to sit and have a tit for tat about tiny points within our pampered existence or do you want to do anything about it?????

You sound like spoilt argumentative child

[kestrel91316]

132. You know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about me or my lifestyle.

So you would, of course, NOT know how different my life is from most other Americans. How DARE you presume that I have done nothing, and not changed my lifestyle. I probably "changed my lifestyle" long before you were out of diapers. Don't be an ignoramus.

I only put 5000 miles a year on my 18 year old Honda. HOW ABOUT YOU???? How many cars have you required to be manufactured for you in 18 years? How many sportscars or SUVs? Eh???? How many times have you wasted gas by speeding off from a stoplight or slamming your brakes? I bet you have NO CLUE how to conserve energy.

How much of your own vegetables do you grow? How many years have you voluntarily given up most meat out of concern for the environment? How long have you grown your own food organically? Do YOU buy and consume processed foods, or do you cook EVERYTHING from scratch? Those food factories are a HUGE waste of energy? How far do your strawberries come from, especially in the winter????

How many years have you washed 90% of your laundry BY HAND and hung it out to dry??? How many years have you made handmade soap???

Over ten years ago I decided to do everything within my power to decrease my use of energy and the amount of impact my life has on the environment. HOW ABOUT YOU, smartass??????

Don't you dare to lecture ME about energy conservation.

[kestrel91316]

133. I've been "thinking outside the box" probably since years before you

even knew what a box was.

[kestrel91316]

134. DUPE - delete

[kestrel91316]

135. Since you know so allfired much about me, DO TELL all about my

"pampered lifestyle".................

Waiting.

Still waiting.

Maybe you need a hint. Like about going to bed hungry. Or no heat in the winter. Or making $11 last two weeks for food.

Still waiting.

Awfully quiet now, aren't we??????

[bennywhale]

139. Quiet because i don't spend al day at the computer but back now

Hello. The points i was referring you made were these...

"Ahem. We get HOT water out of BOTH taps for three months at a
stretch in the summer.

Right. We'll just use the REFRIGERATOR more."

"We live with 85-90 in our homes when the AC simply can't keep up. 115+ is not "inconvenient". It's deadly. And it's something entirely new for us."

They were just contradictions of my position not an argument. An argument is a set of statements that make the evdience to support an opposing position, (which is what i was trying to get on this thread) you decided just to contradict and confront what i said with quick contradictions, as did most on this thread, hence the frustration.

Also, the "...right we'll just use the refridgerator more"
was a petulant statement just to score points for reasons i am unaware of,as you seem to be concerned for the environment. Also the reliance and dedication to the necessity of a/c on this thread including by yourself, shows how far the US is removed from reality. By reality i mean the 95% of people that don't live in the US and get by without our luxuries.

You then claimed i lectured you in energy conservation, which i did not, i challenged you to take part in the argument rather than just automatically contradict things i was saying for the sake of it.

You then proceeded to shout abuse at me and boast about what you have done for the environment etc and list things taht i wouldn't know, which still doesn't add to the argument.

As it happens, i do know of the methods and checks which you list, and i don't eat Strawberries in the winter i eat fresh food as much as possible sourced from as close to where i live as possible and often free wheel downhills in my car anticipating when i'm likely to stop so i can reduce my revs. I know all this, but shouting about it doesn't add to the argument.

I wish you'd just engaged with this thread properly from the start because this is THE issue of the 21st century. It is the most important thing happening on earth today, and here on du we can't even get a proper debate going about it. Shame

PEACE

[kestrel91316]

147. I guess you're not familiar with the concept of sarcasm either.

"Also, the "...right we'll just use the refridgerator more"
was a petulant statement just to score points for reasons i am unaware of"

FYI, I was BEING SARCASTIC. You expect us to live with conditions so hot that there IS no cold water (the brilliant solution to hot weather that you snottily suggested) coming out of the cold water tap. So how am I supposed to GET this magical cold water? By using the fridge more???? Oh, right. Perfect solution. That will save LOTS of energy.

Get a grip. I have already pared my lifestyle and energy use to the bare bones FOR YEARS. Don't you DARE presume to tell me I can't have AC in 119 degree heat. Come back when you are an adult and maybe we can have a conversation. Looks like you still have a lot of growing up to do.

[kestrel91316]

149. You accuse me of acting like a spoiled child about energy and then

have the unmitigated GALL to say I'm lowering the level of the debate???

[bennywhale]

151. We'll talk more when you've calmed down this

is a waste of my time, i'm trying to have a meaningful debate with people, and get some people thinking about their lifestyles as it affects global warming.

Peace

[kestrel91316]

159. You'll need to apologize to me before you get any "meaningful debate"

out of me.

[bennywhale]

160. As i said

this is a waste of my time. I don't come on to DU to argue over minute pointless trivia i come on to try and have meaningful debate.

Peace

Stay Green

[kestrel91316]

162. Utter lack of apology duly noted.

[gorbal]

165. Break it up guys

It's the richest one percent that do most of the polluting, lets not fight to much among ourselves. The point is to do what you can and CONVINCE others to do as much as they can....not make people angry.

Making individual people angry isn't constructive, nothing will come of it.

[kestrel91316]

136. FURTHERMORE, if push came to shove, I could live like the Amish or

like we all did in the 18th and 19th century and NEVER BAT AN EYE.

Spoiled, my a--.

No mommy and daddy to support me. I have made my way in the world ON MY OWN.

How about you??????

[FlaGranny]

146. How did your grandmother

do her housework with her feet stuck in a bucket of water?

Edit: Sorry, I just couldn't resist asking that question.

[bennywhale]

152. The bucket had wheels

[FlaGranny]

153. Ha, ha, ha!

Did she use a broom to push herself around on her bucket's wheels? I'm getting a very amusing picture here. Sort of picturing the old "Bon Ami" lady standing in a bucket, using her broom like you use a pole to propel a boat in shallow muddy water.

[martymar64]

156. Just like Oat Willie!

Hats off to Gilbert Shelton !!!

[outofbounds]

85. Good point

Yes were I live we use a lot of A/C but rarely turn on a heater. Its just not that cold.

[bennywhale]

140. Try using less a/c and use water

to cool down instead. a/c is a modern invention and before it existed people managed. We need to stop wasting energy

[outofbounds]

142. I was the guy

that had all the lights on at night, including outside flood lights to be able to look out the window and see my yard. AC set to 70 in the summer and 60in the winter. A TV on in 2 or 3 rooms. Those days have changed, I still have the AC in the 72-74 range and suppose it will be that way forever. The yard lights, unoccupied rooms, multiple bulb, chandeliers and tvs are all off now. Ive heard that there are light bulbs noe the require much less energy than the incandescent bulbs so I'm replacing those at the rate of 3 a week. I'm trying to do what I can, the links on this post have been very informative and now are bookmarked for future reference. I want to thank the kind folks for the information and for helping me reduce my environmental foot print. But the AC is always going to be used.

[silverojo]

54. Come on out to AZ

I'd love to see how long you survive without A/C.

And no fair taking up a bed in an air-conditioned ER, either. :evilgrin:

[bennywhale]

61. "I'd love to see how long you survive without A/C. " Yep, before aircon

every body died in AZ. And all the other hot places around the world without aircon, they are all dead too. ...THINK...

[Nihil]

92. Damn, there you go, getting all logical and factual again ...

> Yep, before aircon every body died in AZ. And all the other hot places around
> the world without aircon, they are all dead too.

:hi:

Makes you wonder how those pioneers ever managed to keep their lawns green?

We've disagreed on things before but on this one you're right Benny ... :toast:

[bennywhale]

107. Cheers Nihil. I do think

its just an attitude change thats needed and then an adjustment in lifestyle. I say import the Siesta, thats how people in the Mediterranean deal with their heat, and i could do with a nap, or feet in cold water.

A/C is not vital to the survival of humanity thats for sure

[kestrel91316]

98. So why aren't you moving to Woodland Hills to enjoy our lovely

119 degree heat????? WITHOUT A/C?????

You see how well YOU handle it.

[bennywhale]

105. Yep A/C is vital to

the survival of humanity. Before it was invented everyone died.

Pampered

[onager]

161. Woodland Hills? Hi neighbor Kestrel!

:hi:

I work there and live 5 miles away. When I'm in California and not working in foreign countries.

Bennywhale: I say import the Siesta, thats how people in the Mediterranean deal with their heat...

Jebus you're ignorant. But you make up for that by being a moralizing windbag, I guess.

I happen to be looking at the "Mediterranean" right now, if you mean the Mediterranean Sea. It's right across the road from my hotel.

I'm in Alexandria, Egypt, a/k/a "the Pearl of the"...guess what? "...Mediterranean." Like all of Egypt, it's currently suffering under a heat wave.

NOBODY here takes "siestas." They work all day just like people do in the States.

Thanks for all the incredibly pompous and simple-minded advice, though. Given your preachiness on the evils of modern conveniences, you should come over here to the Nile Delta and live like the fellahin (peasant farmers). Most of them don't have electricity or even running water. Every day, I see women queued up at the community water pumps to wash their dishes and pots.

You'll also get plenty of fresh air and exercise. Ever planted rice? Picked cotton? And how are you at handling water buffalo?

Just let me know when you want the flight booked. I can get you a good deal.

[rman]

143. Try keep your food from spoiling without refrigeration

Try getting food that isn't already spoiled from the warehouses in the area - which also don't have refrigeration.

Wealthiest nation on earth, and it can't even keep electricity going.

[bennywhale]

144. Try not having a refridgerator like the rest of the planet

If collectively the nation reverted to fresh local foods, communities would be invigorated, jobs created locally, sense of place restored, less obesity etc.

But this ain't gonna happen as long as we are ruled by big business, they don't like local business.

But we can do something about htis. WE create the demand for locally produced and sourced food sold in local shops. If as consumers and citizens we demand it, that demand will begin to be filled. It takes an adjustment in lifestyle however.

[rman]

145. Yes we should demand locally produced food

But as long as there is no locally produced food, and the system crashes, then that means serious problems for a lot of people.

Also, initiatives in local production of food are disrupted by the government:


Californian community farm shut down to make room for Wal-Mart

The South Central Farm project is located on 14 acres of land in the middle of South Central Los Angeles.
It has been used as a collective community farm since 1992 and is one of the largest urban gardens in the United States.
It feeds 350 families by providing fresh fruits and vegetables on a daily basis.
On june 13 2006 the farmers were forcibly evicted, about 50 people were arrested. As you are reading this the whole farm is being bulldozed.

http://www.southcentralfarmers.com

video (2 min)
http://bulletin.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=bulletin.read&messageID=1140795940&MyToken=3687bade-5374-4c56-8ab0-4aa1e1808a38

--

"There are three vacant warehouses acrosss the street..."

Largest Urban Farm in the Country on the Verge of Eviction
A Report by Chris Hume, Truthout
http://www.truthout.org/multimedia.htm
The South Central Farm is like an oasis. Situated in one of the roughest neighborhoods in Los Angeles, it is a haven for the poor working people of the area, where they can grow and sell their own food locally. But they face eviction. Truthout correspondent Chris Hume interviews Daryl Hannah, Julia Butterfly Hill, and the local farmers about their struggle to stay on the land they've been farming for 14 years.

[bennywhale]

150. Sons of bitches the lot

of them. We need to start grabbing back what the 'American way' is, this will reach across all political divides, and it ain't air hangars full of processed crap closing down, locally run shops and businesses.

If we change our thiking and refuse to shop at Walmarts and other warehouses full of shit they can't make us. I say that with hesitation because these bastards will stoop to anything, and they can send a small town bust by fixing the prices low and then raising them after comptetitions gone. we just got to stick to it

Good luck and peace

[Toots]

7. But but that was Bush* answer to it all.."Just turn on the Air Conditione

That is the Republicans answer to Global Warming. "Just turn on the Air Conditioner" see how smart they are? they have it all figured out..

[donsu]

14. heat is affecting crops - food - when there is not enough food maybe

ignorant americans will wake up

or start stealing what food is available

[BrightKnight]

94. UK's first olive grove

http://www.24dash.com/content/news/viewNews.php?navID=58&newsID=7386

[bennywhale]

111. And the best champagne outside of 'Champagne' is now found

in Kent. The conditions there are now almost identical to the famous French region (although its got to be called something else due to EU rules)

[slackmaster]

15. I experienced two of them on Saturday

Once just after noon for about 90 minutes, again just before midnight for a couple of hours.

Honda generators are looking better and better. So is photovoltaic power with battery backup.

[goforit]

29. Well....when civil war erupts, maybe someone will give a shit!

[Tesha]

30. I've often claimed here that Americans would stay placidly docile...

I've often claimed here that Americans would stay placidly
docile, putting up with *ANY DAMNED SHIT* so long as the
beer stayed cold and the TV stayed on.

Well, guess what? :-)

Tesha

[denverbill]

37. Are they calling Arnold "Schwarzout" yet?

After all, "Greyout" Davis was recalled in no small measure because of the greyouts under his administration. Surely the liberal media will treat Arnold the same way, since Schwarz is the German word for black.

[redqueen]

43. Oh yes, I'm sure the "liberal" media will treat the Gropenator the same

way they treated Davis.

Suuuuuuuure they will.

[unda cova brutha]

44. this is so depressing

I like escape the nitemere of life as it is in *'s Amerika by day dreaming about how much better off we would be if the election hadn't been stold fromus in 2000. We wouldnt be having this heat waves, no war in Iraq or Isreal, gas at an affordable price for everyone, a booming economy and better equalty for everyone.

Why is Amerika so blind to what * is doing to them?

[OnionPatch]

48. One thing that helps a little with us is a swamp cooler

Otherwise known as an evaporative cooler. From what I hear, they only use a little more power than a ceiling fan and my electric bill seems to bear that out. Unfortunately, they don't work in high humidity, but it's amazing to me how many people here in arid California have not even heard of one, let alone use one. The money and power that could be saved if people who could use them (instead of the AC) would.

[kestrel91316]

102. It's usually WAY too humid anymore for evaporative ("swamp") coolers

to work here. We aren't very dry anymore, except in the Mojave.

[OnionPatch]

138. I use mine every day

all summer. Usually there are only a few days when it doesn't work well. I'm inland, though. I'm not quite in the Mojave, but it's pretty dry here most of the time. I admit, I had to turn on the AC a few times this past few weeks because of the cloudy, humid weather but overall, I save a ****load of $$ by using it as often as I can.

[krkaufman]

49. Good name for a new pub... "The Tipping Pint" n/t

Its obvously not aircons fault entirely, but it is indicitive of the tipping pint we are reaching and American lifestyles taking us towards it

[pitohui]

57. let's try it this way

people lose their ability to tolerate heat above age 65, our longer lifespans today mean that high heat w.out a/c kills

the heat wave of 95 in chicago where an acknowledged 700-plus were killed -- and rumors of thousands more dead attributed to other diseases of old age went around -- is the prime example

another would be france, i believe in 2004, when 3,000 people were killed by a heat wave

a young person can sit back and laugh and do w.out a/c but you are asking the older person to die

on edit--
having now read the entire thread, i agree with bridgit that certain people even on DU see this as "valuable thinning of the herd" and don't care if our elders are killed, there are some damn heartless comments here sigh

[kestrel91316]

103. Pitohui, those are trolls and Ivans making those comments, IMHO.

[bennywhale]

114. You say you've read the thread but you seem to have missed the

point. This is nothing to do with letting old people die, its about adjusting lifestyles. People all over the world in much hotter temperatures manage to stay cool, old and young without A/C.

My grandma used to put her feet in a bucket of cold water. we've got to accept that we need to alter our pampered existence.

But anyway, it would probably be ok for grandma to use a/c if the rest of us didn't. but that ain't gonna happen, because people are selfish. For the vast majority heat is uncomfortable and an inconvenience. Compare that with the damage we are doing to our planet and we need to take action and stop being selfish.

[Bridget Burke]

121. Please--let us know where you live! No profile....

How did your poor old granny sleep at night with her feet in a bucket of water? Must have been a pretty big bucket!

[FlaGranny]

148. I wonder how she

prepared her meals and did her housework with her feet in that bucket. I'm picturing her plodding around the house with a bucket strapped to each foot.

[LanternWaste]

62. "Bush has no energy policy"?

Now let's all cast our memories back ten years or so...

Remember the rolling grey-outs in California (courtesy of Enron)?. This was app. 1997. I was working in a warehouse job and the boss and his kids would listen to AM Radio as gospel. It meant I had to, also.

I do recall that the right's mantra at the time was "Clinton has no energy policy! Clinton has no energy policy!"

So, I guess... "Bush has no energy policy! Bush has no energy policy!"

[unda cova brutha]

79. * does have an energy policy

his policy is to get all of his rich fat cat oil buddies as rich as he can at our expense.

[caligirl]

76. Keeping my dog cool, ice water frequently shade and fans. The news

last night ran stories about heat stroke and heat exhaustion killing pets. Pets have died due to this high heat/high humidity. I keep my dog indoors, cooler and shady, until night time when he wants to be out in the cool air. I also give him crushed ice and ice water frequently.

Last time I looked for a swamp cooler I couldn't find one. Today we are getting some breeze that helps. Yesterday we spent the day with our kids and dog in Santa Cruz. It was 81.

[The Anti-Neo Con]

77. Certain people can handle the heat better than others.

Really, there's kind of an ethnicity factor when it comes down to it. Mexicans, Indians, and blacks seem to be able to handle it a bit better. I'm of 100% Scandinavian descent, so the heat literally kills me. However, I'm nearly impervious to cold. I used to work as a lift operator at a ski resort, and working outdoors for an 8-hour shift in zero degree weather did not bother me one bit.

[Tight_rope]

80. Watch out for the Enron's of the world!

:headbang:

[geniph]

82. One of the biggest improvements is rarely ever done...

and Carter was soundly ridiculed for even suggesting it - but one of the most effective changes we could make is to require every workplace to be air-conditioned to no less than 75 degrees. Yes, it's uncomfortable. But my workplace right now is 68 degrees, and it's 90 degrees outside. The server room is 65 degrees. The servers produce a lot of heat, so that room does have to have some supplemental air conditioning, but they're just fine at 75; they don't have to be 65. And yes, I'm much more comfortable at 68 than 75, but I can adapt. Right now, it's actually kind of cold in my office, and that seems incredibly wasteful to me. If every business was required, as Carter tried to encourage, to heat to no more than 65 in the winter and cool to no less than 75 in summer, think of the energy savings!

But no, we can't have that. Some executive might be mildly inconvenienced.

:eyes:

Ditto for theaters, supermarkets, etc. I went to see a show the other day in an air-conditioned venue, and it was so chilly inside that everyone was shivering by the time the show was over. That is senseless waste.

Keep the food at the optimum temperature, keep sensitive equipment somewhere in the optimum range, and keep offices somewhere in that 10 degree range, but let's quit with the excessive heating in winter and excessive cooling in summer in these huge buildings! That's a much bigger waste than Gramma having a window a/c unit in her condo to keep from fainting.

[glitch]

88. Moderation + smart application + improved efficiency

and we are more than halfway there with little loss in "comfort". And everybody lives.

edit: http://www.rmi.org/

[brer cat]

93. I think we would be surprised at the difference your suggestions

would make. My sister and I have downsized to a small town house. Much cheaper to cool/heat; we layer up in the winter and wear cool clothing in the summer. We can walk to work, and have a small side yard where we eliminated all grass and grow many of our own summer vegetables...which we mostly water with grey water from our house. It's amazing how much "good" water most people put in the sewer system. We save water run in the shower waiting for the water to heat, all water used for rinsing dishes, all water from pasta and veggies that we used to toss in the sewer. I truly believe that if we all conserved, it would help immensely and at very little discomfort to the individual.

[Lorien]

95. 75 is uncomfortable to some people?

when I turn on the air conditioner in my 80 year old home here in Florida, I turn it down to 82 and that's cool enough. As long as some of the humidity is being sucked out of the air my papers, books and supplies are fine (I have a home based business). The home doesn't even get really warm until 4pm because I have so many huge leafy trees overhanging my house. When hurricane Charley ripped limbs and leaves off of them two years ago the house was steamy by noon! But now that they've grown full again the house stays much cooler, and my AC bills are slashed by half. Leafy trees are a great investment, imho.

I always take a coat with me into every restaurant, bookstore, and theater down here. Most are kept at 65-68 degrees, and that's uncomfortably cold for someone accustomed to the sub tropics. Some are even kept at 58 degrees (like our local Barnes and Noble). I can never stay in those places long due to the cold, so they lose a lot of my business. I just don't understand what some managers are thinking!

[superconnected]

97. I'm in seattle, 75 is uncomfortable for a lot of people.

Actually if it would hit that and never pass it I would be happy. 80 is murderous here.

You're used to the sun. I'm used to a cool breeze 9 1/2 months a year.

[kestrel91316]

104. You know what the biggest energy waster around these parts is, from

what I can see?

Businesses that, in 100+ heat, have their AC running full blast and set to 68, and the doors to the business propped wide open. I kid you not. It is common in Los Angeles.

[NotGivingUp]

163. You got that right. I'm down here in Florida, and

every place of business I go into is freezing!

[longship]

89. Three days here in Ontario, California

Saturday - 107F
Sunday - 104F
Current - 103F (probably headed for 104 or more)

Brownouts all day long. My computer power supplies are triggering alarms.

[Heddi]

101. Yesterday, 14 people admitted to my hospital b/c of the heat

I live in Central/Eastern Washington and the city I live in got up to 109 yesterday (not the heat index. Just the heat). Other places got up over 110.

Fourteen people were admitted with heat-related illess JUST YESTERDAY. It was smoldering on Saturday and Friday as well, over 104 both days, but I don't know how many were admitted on those days since I wasn't working.

Yeah yeah AC is a convenience to someone who is 20, who has an intact neurological system and can indicate when they are thirsty or dehydrated.

But the people who were admitted--the elderly, the young, the chroncically ill--they did nothing wrong other than live in a town that got record-high temperatures for nearly a week, with a week more coming on.

For them, AC is a LIFESAVER. The elderly are particularly vunerable because of their lack of subcutaneous fat--they have a harder time keeping warm in the winter, and a harder time keeping cool in the summer. Add to that that many elderly/infirm not only lack the neurological functioning to know when they are dehydrated, but many of them lack the ability to GET something to drink when they need it.

Add to that decreased body mass and an increased need for cooling down and an increased need for hydration, and before you know it, you've got someone who is severely dehydrated ON TOP of being severely overheated.

Same with infants and small children. Parents do their best to keep them fed and hydrated, but when they're already hot, or already dehydrated there's not much you can do sans medical intervention.

A 3 year old was admitted at midnight last night with severe dehydration. The parents had AC at the house but the heat was too much and the AC was too old and their house never got below 92 degrees they say. I believe them.

So people on this board can piss and moan about how resilient to the heat the Indians are, and how pampered and fat a nation we are, but I promise you that you would be quite hard-hearted to say that to the woman who was found SWELTERING in her one-bedroom apartment. See, she only had 1 window, and no way for the air to circulate. We don't know how long she was "down"--she was elderly and lived alone. When EMS was called by a neighbor (they were worried when she didn't answer her door), the EMS team reported that the temperature inside her house was 105 degrees. Because she was so dehydrated, she wasn't sweating. Her body temperature when they got her in the ambulance was 105 degrees. It was 108 outside.

YEah. Let her die without AC, without proper access to methods of being cooled down in these nation-wide record temperatures.

--

For the record (not that it matters), I don't have AC> I have a box fan and right now it's 93 outside and 91 in my house. I'm young and relatively healthy so it's no problem for me---I just go put on shorts and a tank-top and put cool rags on my head. Not everyone is as healthy as I/you are. Not everyone has the abilities that I/You have.

Posters on this board need to THINK ABOUT THAT before they go spouting off bullshit about how global warming is just great and if you can't cool down your 105 core body temperature by soaking your feet in cold water like grandma used to...well...then...oh well...

[bennywhale]

109. Siestas, cold water, slight adjustment in lifestyle

is solves that. And what people don't seem to recognise is that all these powered luxuries are contributing to global warming, so without a change in attitude the planet will warm more = more A/C and other wasting energies = planet warms more...

We need to take personal responsibility. It would be ok for Grandma to have a bit of A/C if everyone else didn't, but that ain't the case. US is too pampered and is destroying the planet

[Bridget Burke]

123. Once again--please let us know where you live.

If you're a fellow Houstonian who lives without AC, I'd be impressed.

[bennywhale]

115. oh dear

[bennywhale]

117. US heat stretches energy supplies

Scorching heat is still severely stretching power supplies in parts of the US with consumers warned of more shortages unless they reduce demand.

Conservation is absolutely necessary. It's not just key or guidance. It is absolutely necessary if we are going to avoid rolling blackouts," Marlon Walker of Southern California Edison told Reuters news agency.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/5212650.stm

Turn the aircon off people, put your feet in a bucket of cold water

[ixion]

118. sure, I can put my feet in cold water... but what about my computers and

my network? You can't really put that in cold water, nor can you leave to 90% humidity. Not if you value your data, at least.

I guess what I'm saying is that it's more than just air conditioning for humans. Computer rooms are kept very cool. I'm sure that's going play in somewhere in the ripple effect of high energy prices.

[niallmac]

119. Can you dedicate one room for that purpose?

I was struck by how all my friends in the U.K.
heat only one room. I don't see that so much
here in the U.S.

[ixion]

122. At one point I had it centralized, but I've since expanded

and now it dominates what used to be the living room as well.

I try to use the AC as little as possible, though. I turn it off whenever I can.

[bennywhale]

126. I can recognise what you are saying. I'm

from the UK and growing up it was very much about conserving energy etc.

There's a lot of Britias phrases like 'Make do and mend' and 'waste not want not' that are hangovers from the war and rationing. Attitudes that have been passed down that are still prevalent, although less so today.

Some British still feel guilty over waste, like leaving lights on, running water, and uneccessary heating etc, as well as new unneccessary things like new clothes when your old ones are fine, although again a diminishing attitude.

When i was young, if i was cold my dad would say "put a bloody jumper on"

This attitude of not being pampered or over consuming would have a serious impact on global warming

[Freedom_from_Chains]

120. It would seem to me to be irresponsible to provide millions of

dollars per year to foreign countries while letting our own infrastructure to be lacking.

[Megahurtz]

131. None of these RichPukes give a shit,

they just sit around in their pompous wealth and their comfort. It's all about THEM!
As long as it doesn't affect their little perfect world.:argh:

[kineneb]

137. I care, but...

Hubby cannot stand high temperatures, due to his health problems. We decided that running the AC was more cost effective than having him taken away by an ambulance. We tried having the thermostat set higher, and he wound up collapsing from hypoglycemia and taking a visit to the ER via ambulance.

Old people and the medically fragile simply cannot stand prolonged high temps. And indeed, these people would have not survived in the "old days". Which of us is willing to pull the plug on Grandma's air conditioner and watch her die from the heat? We are not talking expensive, in-hospital life support, but a simple household appliance.

[bennywhale]

141. Thats the point. Without the rest of us who use it for

comfort, there would be no reason why the ill and the elderly could not use it for their health. Its just that people blast away with it regardless. We need to adjust our lifestyles so that those in need, can use it and don't suffer from things like blackouts, then they are definetely screwed

[Buns_of_Fire]

158. Too Hot Here vs Too Cold There. A possibility:

What they call "earth-sheltered housing." (Google search here).

Where I'm sitting right now, it's in the high 80s (with an oscillating fan going to stir up what breathable air there is). Come next January, it'll be in the low 40s in this same room (with a closed window and an oscillating fan to stir up the scent of KC1, Obsession for Men, and very stale cigarette smoke).

Meanwhile, two flights down in the basement, sheltered by earth on three sides, it's roughly 65-68 degrees. Come January, it'll be roughly the same. There's no heating down there. No A/C, either.

Thermal lag. It's a good thing.