Israel US ambassador Ayalon: Annan has to apologize

[bemildred]

:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

Israel's Ambassador to Washington Danny Ayalon said Wednesday that UN Secretary General Kofi Annan should apologize to Israel for saying that dropping a bomb on a UN post in south Lebanon was a deliberate act.

Speaking to CNN Ayalon said Annan's comments are "scandalous," and demanded he apologize. (Yitzhak Benhorin, Washington)

Ynet

[Cooley Hurd]

1. Bombing a well-known, very-clearly marked UN Peacekeeping outpost...

...is WAY more scandalous, IMO.:grr:

[Freddie Stubbs]

46. Was it deliberate when the US bombed China's embassy in 1999?

:shrug:

[daydreamer]

54. Maybe. Who knows?

[Cooley Hurd]

73. That was a guided missile that went awry...

...the Liberty was hit by non-smart, targeted weapons.

Sorry, nice try but no cigar...

[SOS]

77. Most likely

"The Chinese embassy had been housed at that location for four years. Its site was clearly marked on tourist maps that are on sale internationally, including in the English language. The embassy was well known to journalists, diplomats and other visitors to Belgrade. Its address was listed in the Belgrade telephone directory. For the CIA to have made such an elementary blunder is simply not plausible. Apart from publicly-available maps, US intelligence agencies have access to satellite reconnaissance and other high-technology surveillance, for which some $29 billion is budgetted annually."

"It is entirely conceivable that President Clinton personally had no knowledge of the plan. Given the Byzantine nature of the struggles between the White House, the Pentagon, the CIA and other elements within the US political and military establishment, it is quite possible that the bombing was designed to embarrass the Clinton administration and escalate the war. Sections of the military have hardly disguised their loathing for Clinton."

http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/may1999/bomb-m10.shtml

[katinmn]

2. OMFG! It was a precision-guided missle. More absurdity here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2742595&mesg_id=2742595

Our government is playing poodle to Israel. Disgusting.

[Igel]

25. I've been trying to find a source for

"precision guided missile." Preferably for a missile whose targeting would involve the use of standard bomber coordinates.

I can find "aerial" bomb, but then again I can find reports insanely talking about IDF helicopter strikes in downtown Beirut last week, and naval bombardment when no Israel ships were nearby. Apparently they teleport in, strike, and teleport out.

I'm thinking that any bomb that falls from the sky is "aerial", and this includes helicopter-launched missiles, JDAMs, and even artillery shells.

[tabasco]

29. Artillery is not considered "aerial" attack in military terminology.

Anything shot or dropped from an aircraft is an aerial attack.

[katinmn]

30. Here ya go

http://www.exhibitions.sibat.mod.gov.il/ParisAirShow/UploadDocs/News/Mod8.pdf
Israel's Precision Guided Weapons & Missiles
(from the Paris Air Show 2005)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/5217176.stm
The post was hit by a precision-guided missile after six hours of shelling, diplomats familiar with the probe say.

[Solo_in_MD]

35. Some of that report is questionable

The diplomats have have no way of knowing if it was a LGB (laser guided bomb) or a missile (powered with GPS mid course and active terminal guidance of some sort). The difference is very signifact in analysing the attack, though the results are the same (dead UN obvservers). It should be noted that the IAF does not have few GPS guided bombs and would most likely not use them in the kind of urban melee fighting going on since they do not have the real time targeting capability required to use them in that kind of situation.

A better description of IAF ordinance is found at http://www.israeli-weapons.com/israeli_weapons_missile_systems.html Its a pretty extensive mix.

[Solo_in_MD]

34. It will be interesting to read the investigation of this, assuming

of course that it is made public.

As to you comments, consider some technical points:

- Some of it may have been artillery fire. The reports are mixed.
- Aerial ordinance was most likely not a GPS based missile but bombs if they were indeed PGMs. This is an important distinction. GPS goes to predetermined coordinates. LGBs are used with a designator. LGBs have problems when there is dust, fog, clouds or other obscurations in the area for obvious reasons. It could also have been dumb bombs, which can be targeted fairly well in some tactical situations. I go into this technical arcana since it could figure in Israel's defense.

- Report near misses to a liaison office does little good in a tactical situation. The liaison guy can't just pickup the phone and tell the jets or artillery to back off. Military tactical comms are quite complex and layered for good reasons. However that architecture makes it very hard to get a particular message to a particular unit or plane immediately, especially form a source outside the chain, which a liaison office would be. Again, not defending the attack, but these are factors that will figure into any investigation.

I am not justifying or accepting the attack as "stuff happens", but look for a fog of war defense from the IDF.

[ixion]

3. Israel has lost what little marbles it had

and seriously gone over the edge, IMO.

We're supporting these whack-jobs?

:crazy:

[atreides1]

13. Israel hasn't lost anything

They are supported by the US Government and the Bush administration. You remember Congress voting almost unanimously that the United States supported Israel?

And "we" are not supporting them, at least I'm not. I don't support Hezbollah either, just in case the "Israel can do no wrong group" happens to be monitoring this thread.

[liberalhistorian]

22. Unfortunately, you are supporting them;

we're all supporting them with our tax dollars. Lots and lots and lots and lots of our tax dollars and our money is paying for the military equipment and actions that are doing so much damage in Lebanon and Gaza.

[Julius Civitatus]

32. Remember: Dick Cheney shot a guy in the face, and then had to apologize

for getting shot! We are living bizarre times indeed.

[GeorgeGist]

36. I can rationalize your point away...

by reminding myself that the tax dollars that support this stuff come from those who support this stuff; not me.

[Copperred]

51. From Freedom to Facism

EVERYONE SHOULD SEE AARON ROSSOS new FILM

FROM FREEDOM TO FACISM in AMERICAN

PLEASE GO SEE THIS FILM

IT IS DIRECTLY RELATED TO STOPPING THE BEAST

[ixion]

42. yeah, I'm using 'We' in the pluralistic sense... because like it or not

your tax dollars are going to support this travesty.

I don't support killing people. Period. I don't care what political or religious excuse is being used. NO EXCUSE in the world is worth someone's life, IMO.

[saigon68]

43. just in case the "Israel can do no wrong group"

I also don't like Hezzbolah

There is really no difference between these 2 groups of Religious Nut-Job Thugs blowing each other away

Except that the body count of children is growing daily

[alfredo]

45. I'm still fighting for justice in the

USS Liberty murders. Our government is still covering for Israel.

[saigon68]

52. Yes I've seen that 1967

I was going to Nam at the end of the year.

[alfredo]

65. It is still as fresh as the day it happened.

The UN incident and the reaction to it dredged up all those feelings.

[saigon68]

76. I see the Nut Cases from the I/P Forum are attacking you non-stop

With their drivel

It was so peaceful in our forum LBN when they were confined to their own cellar

[alfredo]

79. Let em. they weren't in that room with us. They weren't there.

They know nothing.

I know it is declassified, but there is that training, that code of honor that keeps me from saying more. I also don't know what is OK to talk about, and what isn't, so I keep my mouth shut. it's still so painful after all these years.

What happened those days changed my life forever, and I can tell it had a profound effect on my brothers. Their anger is still as strong as back in 1967.

My army buddies, including one that was supposed to be transfered to Liberty, are right back in June 8, it has opened old wounds.
My friend would have been in the room where the torpedo passed through. He would have been vaporized.

Read about us in James Bamford's "Body of Secrets." We are also in Michela Wrong's "I didn't do it for You." We were kind of the Animal House of the ASA, but we were the best.

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[alfredo]

81. Do you know what happened that day? Do you know how the

survivors were treated by our own country? Until a few years ago we were not allowed to tell our side of the story. Then when were were able to speak we were told to shut up and go away.

It was not the confusion of war. They saw the American Flag, they saw the sailors waving and cheering them as the flew over. They saw our sailors sunbathing on the deck. There is no way they could have mistaken it for an Egyptian freighter. An Egyptian freighter would not have been decked out with antenna array and an American flag.

I was on duty at the time of the attack. Read about us in James Bamford's "Body of Secrets." His account is painfully accurate.


"Never before in the history of the United States Navy has a Navy Board of Inquiry ignored the testimony of American military eyewitnesses and taken, on faith, the word of their attackers."
-- Captain Richard F. Kiepfer, Medical Corps, US Navy (retired), USS Liberty Survivor

Does this look like a horse transport?


This is the ship the Israeli's said they attacked. That ship was out of service by the time the war erupted.



After several hours of over-flights by Israeli aircraft, you'd think they would have a good ID of the ship. It was bright daylight, no rain, no fog, nothing. It wasn't a mistake, they knew the USS Liberty was an intelligence ship. That ship and the Pueblo were well known in that region it was no secret who they were and what they were doing.


They tried for two hours to sink the ship. Their torpedo boats came close enough on several occasions to see the American flag. They shot up the life rafts, they hit the ship with napalm. US fighters were on their way to protect our ship but were called back when the ID of the attackers were known. An American Sub was nearby but was not allowed to give aid.


If you want to talk with someone who was on the ship, I can get you the contact info.

I support Israel's right to exist, but that doesn't mean I should give up my fight for justice for my brothers from the USS Liberty.

[QuettaKid]

88. THANK YOU for this post.

and for your service to the country. Seriously, THANKS!!

[alfredo]

91. Whenever incidents like the UN post bombing happens, it opens

old wounds. The news of the UN's pleas, their helplessness, and then the denials by Israel and America is just too reminenisent of that day in 1967. I spent the night talking through feelings with my army buddies. It was a sleepless night for me.


I can understand why the struggles in the ME, the Balkans, Colombia, and Afghanistan continue. One never recovers from injustice.

[Name removed]

84. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Behind the Aegis]

85. Take your own advice.

[LivingInTheBubble]

50. They don't like having people around to witness their atrocities. nt

[ShortnFiery]

4. Hey Danny Boy! Don't hold your breath :( eom

[alcibiades_mystery]

5. Taking lessons from Cheney, I see

Will the absurdity never end?

[dionysus]

6. Wait a minute...

Kofi has to apologize for HIS TROOPS GETTING KILLED? w-w-w-wha???

[hughee99]

11. Well, according to Israel...

it's the Lebanese people's fault they're getting bombed (for not evacuating), why should the UN be any different?

[Skip Intro]

7. This is just insane.

If we had an OMFG smilie, I'd use it here.

[Xeric]

8. Or what, they'll bomb him too?

[Norquist Nemesis]

9. Heard one of the spokesmen last night

Israel's ambassador to the UN, IIRC. I took a swig when he got to "irresponsible" on his long list.

[sinkingfeeling]

10. Excuse me, but how is it NOT a deliberate act? .....

"They had called an Israeli military liaison about 10 times in the six hours before they died to warn that the aerial attacks were getting close to their position, according to a U.N. officer"

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/26/mideast.main/index.html

[Igel]

64. I'm waiting for the report.

The final one.

The rationale's easy: Israeli military liaison hears about 'aerial attack', and tells IAF not to bombard. IAF liaison agrees, over and over, and relays it to the targeting folk. UNIFIL provides coordinates; they get relayed.

UNIFIL reports artillery shelling and aerial bombardment.

Israeli published SOP is to use helicopter-based missiles and artillery for near-border targets. Helicopter isn't under IAF's jurisdiction. Artillery fire means it was close enough to the border. Even without having looked at a map.

I need one of three things to be able to say that this isn't plausibly a snafu: the IAF's admission that they dropped the bomb from a jet, Israeli military saying that they relayed the information to the artillery/helicopter units across the border from al-Khiyam and that they knew that what they were firing on matched the banned coordinates, or UNIFIL to conclusively rule out helicopter fire. UNIFIL could do this by saying that informed witnesses saw the missile, or that the bunker could only have been destroyed by a bomb from a fighter-bomber.

[w4rma]

89. Heh, you'll never get that "final report". (nt)

[htuttle]

12. Chutzpah: 'hutz-pah' (n)

Unbelievable gall; aggressive boldness; insolence; audacity; utter nerve; effrontery.

(Yiddish khutspe, from Mishnaic Hebrew ḥuṣpâ, from ḥāṣap, to be insolent.)

[European Socialist]

14. Sorry about your bloody fist--my nose won't ever do that again--love Kofi.

[Miss Chybil]

15. Absolutely ridiculous. nt

[snappyturtle]

16. Time for Ayalon to go home........

I know the U.N. isn't as effective as I would like it to be. However, their presence in troubled spots has to help. Sounds as if Ayalon would join those who desire the U.N. to fold....bet he's setting the stage for no U.N. peacekeeping forces in the "buffer" zone.

[leesa]

21. Of course they want the UN to go away. Who else monitors their crimes?

It's embarrassing to have such a high tally of UN resolutions against you to ignore.

[snappyturtle]

23. Good point...I always seem to forget as do.....

most of our politicians of the unheeded U.N. resolutions against Israel.

[rooboy]

17. Where do I sign up for the public relations course this guy went to? n/t

[leesa]

18. Sounds like a Republican to a Democrat. This is disgusting!

Ayalon needs to be sent packing.

[BooScout]

19. What the fuck for?

For telling the truth? How much more arrogance must the world be subjected to?

[Scurrilous]

20. Irish officer warned Israel on threat to U.N. staff

<snip>

"An Irish army officer in south Lebanon warned the Israeli military six times that their attacks in the area were putting the lives of U.N. observers at risk, Ireland's Foreign Ministry said on Wednesday.

Four U.N. observers were killed in an Israeli air strike in southern Lebanon on Tuesday.

"On six separate occasions he was in contact with the Israelis to warn them that their bombardment was endangering the lives of U.N. staff in South Lebanon," a Department of Foreign Affairs spokesman said.

"He warned: 'You have to address this problem or lives may be lost'," the spokesman said of comments by a senior Irish soldier working as a liaison officer between U.N. forces in South Lebanon and the Israelis."

http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2006-07-26T142731Z_01_L26394740_RTRUKOC_0_UK-MIDEAST-IRELAND-WARNING.xml&archived=False

[MisterP]

49. UN: "You're getting closer!" Israel: "And?"

[cali]

24. I'm speechless.

or almost. Talk about gall.

[bennywhale]

26. "for droppomg A bomb, Kofi has just said it went on for hours

thread in breaking news

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2414488&mesg_id=2414488

[IronLionZion]

27. "I'm sorry you bombed our post and killed our blue-helmeted observers."

"And we promise that no one will see what you are up to ever again. We're leaving ASAP. Keep up the good work. XOXO, Kofi"

:sarcasm:

[parkia00]

31. I got to know one of these UN observers

He's an Irish national who nows works as a helicopter pilot who spent time on the Israel/Lebanon border. He told me that the UN posts are all pocked marked with bullet holes. An all the bullet holes are on one side. The side facing Israel. He said every now and then when the IDF troops got bored, they would send something their way. He had very little respect for the IDF.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

75. commie loving?

yikes.

[w4rma]

90. "God hating"? oookay.

It's too bad your sig distracts from your very informative message.

[JackORoses]

28. it seems

they didn't want anyone Observing what was going on in Southern Lebanon.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

33. Yeah, and the U.S.S. Liberty bombing wasn't intentional either.

:sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm:

I think we've all seen this script from Israel before.

[dpbrown]

37. Bullshit

Annan is probably right.


More stupid posturing.

[AX10]

38. Annan does not have to apologize for anything.

[Poll_Blind]

39. So, Israel, waist-deep in the blood of civilians already demands...

...that Kofi Annan appologize for saying that the attack looked intentional because the outpost was targeted by Israel and attacked for hours by Israeli airplanes and artillery?

 sp:I am not surprised. This is the same crap we'd be getting from Ari Fleisher, Scotty McClellan or Tony Snow if the U.S. was in the same situation(as it has been).

  Go back to the mutual toe-sucking with Bolton, Danny, your friends right now are only those who are equally out of touch with reality.

PB

[CBHagman]

40. It is my sincere wish...

...that Ambassador Ayalon might recover his marbles.

[saigon68]

56. They are rolling around

On the floor

[Deja Q]

41. No doubt both sides will be playing everyone else as chumps.

The truth reveals itself eventually.

I wonder who is more in the wrong. (they say the truth is in the middle... but one side is always further from it...)

[Ms. Clio]

44. what "sides?" What "side" were the 4 dead peacekeepers on?

There are no deep mysteries here.

[ShortnFiery]

53. I think the fact that it was an ISRAELI air strike that murdered these UN

observers pretty well lays the blame at the feet of the IDF. :wtf: Over!

Well, unless Hezbollah grew an Air Force over the past couple of days. :shrug: :(

[stepnw1f]

47. delusional

asshole

[MrPrax]

48. They hit the post...

just as Rice's plane took off from Israel to go to the Rome meeting.

Of course it was deliberate...

The Ambassador is simply doing what Israel does...anytime there is an atrocity and a war crime committed, Israel gets indignant.

So what is Israel saying...we don't know what we are hitting?
If that's Israel defense, then it is all the more reason to call it off -- their tactics aren't working.

So What is Israel saying...we can't tell the difference between a Hezbulleh and civillians?
If that's Israel defense, then it is all the more reason to call it off -- their tactics aren't working.

So What is Israel saying...we can't militarily distinguish between well marked UN posts and Hezbullah positions?
If that's Israel defense, then it is all the more reason to call it off -- their tactics aren't working.

It's funny that Israel can toss out this shit and people swallow it whole without even referencing what Israel's supposed stated goals are in this action. To eliminate Hezbulleh--but Israel apparantly is not sure where or who Hezbulleh is...so how can if be effective unless it is a 'scorched earth policy' and genocidal by definition.

(To date, Israel has killed almost half as many Canadians as the Taliban has...apparantly Canadian citizens are worth a lot less to either group, but the Supporters still insist that we should support Israel, even though ironically, their results are the same as the Taliban)

[Binka]

86. Malignant Narcissistic Bullies Always Get Indignant

Worthless POS every last one of them.

[endarkenment]

55. Apologize for being in the way of our bombs, you bastard!

Have we reached the limit yet? Is it not clear?

[QuettaKid]

57. what else do you expect from the people

who invented the word chutzpah? That UN building was there for 20 years and was clearly marked on all four sides with BIG BLACK UN LETTERS ON ALL SIDES. Do you honestly think the Israeli's had no current up to the minute maps of that part of the country?

[adriennui]

59. re: chutzpah

the israelis didn't invent the word chutzpah. it is from yiddish which has been spoken by the ashkenasi jews for hundreds of years.

i thought people like you differentiate between your hatred of israel and the jewish religion> that's what people of your type usually say.

so what is it.....ignorance or prejudice.

me thinks it's a combo of both.

[QuettaKid]

60. for the record, "people of my type"

hate ALL religions. Mythical invis-O-beings in the sky who "choose" one people over all the rest have no place in a sane civilization. Who is your enemy? Bush/Cheney? Good, then you are in the right place. Welcome friend.

[Binka]

87. Bravo! Post of the day! n/t

[theanarch]

67. sorry, you're wrong...

...it can't be chuzpah...Israel hasn't demanded the Amman personally pay for the cost of the replacement bomb...yet

[mbperrin]

58. So if not deliberate, the option is just randomly throwing bombs,

missiles and stuff around? And this is better, because.................?

BTW, OF COURSE it was deliberate! Paging Dick Cheney: your apology is ready!

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[adriennui]

68. you don't really mean that, do you?

if yes, you are becoming unhinged and i suspect it won't be too long before you'll be posting where you belong....and that's on stormfront.

i have a feeling your hatred will devour you from within...until POOF! you are gone.

[saigon68]

83. Au Revoir Enjoy your stay on this thread

[Orion The Hunter]

62. Well Annan should apologize...

...for saying it was deliberate if Danny Ayalon will apologize for Israel having incompetent bombardiers. How's that for a compromise? :)

[daleo]

63. He took a lesson from Cheney

This is rather like Cheney making that lawyer he shot apologize. The gall has no limits.

[progressivebydesign]

66. Prove that it wasn't!

Shouldn't be busy right now planning the deaths of more children in Lebanon and Gaza, than to play finger pointing?

[AnOhioan]

70. Ayalon can apologize to the families of the UN dead.

That is the ONLY apology that is needed here.

[gorbal]

71. Perhaps they should be the ones to aplologize.

If they were told where the UN was and it was a precision guided weapon...it's Isreal vs the world basically.

[IndianaGreen]

72. The facts don't support Israel's contention that the bombing was a mistake

This was no more an accident that the bombing and torpedo boat attack on the USS Liberty!

UN base fired on 21 times

The four monitors came from Austria, Canada, China and Finland. Tonight, European Union and Chinese officials condemned the attack as "unacceptable" and the Irish government filed an official complaint to Israel after its senior UN peacekeeper made half a dozen warning calls over the bombings.

Jane Lute, the assistant secretary general for peacekeeping, told the UN security council that the base came under close Israeli fire 21 times - including 12 hits within 100 metres and four direct hits - from 1.20pm until contact was lost with the four peacekeepers inside at 7.17pm.

Ms Lute said the peacekeeping force had protested to the Israeli army after each firing incident. The UN's deputy secretary general, Mark Malloch Brown, and Ms Lute herself also made several calls to Israel's mission to the UN "reiterating these protests and calling for an abatement of the shelling", she said.

After contact with the base was lost, Unifil then won safe passage for two armoured personnel carriers to evacuate the position, she said. They arrived at 9.30pm "and found the shelter collapsed and major damage to the rest of the position". Despite negotiating safe passage, the APCs also came under Israeli attack, Ms Lute said.

The 2,000-strong Unifil force, which sits on the Israel-Lebanon border, has suffered dozens of attacks and direct hits in the two-week conflict.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1830397,00.html

[AbsoluteArmorer]

74. IMHO Annan was proper with making his statements....

Along with the very aggressive attacks initiated by Israel. The so called 'mistakes' that are taking place are costing Innocent lives! This has been an 'out of control' attack on the country of Lebanon in my honest opinion. Annan is simply calling it just that as far as I am concerned.

[saigon68]

78. Its just 2 groups of THUGS and HOODLUMS killing a bunch of children

and old people.


With Uncle Sugar giving Billions to one group of thugs

[goforit]

80. SCREW you Ayalon!!!

[shadowknows69]

82. Can we just please

throw all the kids in the sandbox to kick the shit out of each other? Last one standing can have the world as long as they promise not to break it.