Israel 'using chemical weapons': doctors

[allemand]

July 27, 2006 - 6:39AM

Lebanon is investigating reports from doctors that Israel has used weapons in its 15-day-old bombardment of southern Lebanon that have caused wounds they have never seen before.
(...)

Cham said the bodies of some victims were "black as shoes, so they are definitely using chemical weapons. They are all black but their hair and skin is intact so they are not really burnt. It is something else." (...)

Television footage shows some bodies, such as those of 20 civilians killed when an Israeli missile hit the van in which they were fleeing the border village of Marwaheen, blackened in the way Cham describes. No one knows what killed them.

"We are seeing abnormal burns, different from wars we've seen in the past. The corpses of these victims are shrinking to half their normal size. You think it is the corpse of a child at first but it turns out to be a grown man," said Raed Salman Zeinedine, director of Tyre Government Hospital.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/World/Israel-using-chemical-weapons-doctors/2006/07/27/1153816285823.html

[fooj]

1. This is fucking criminal.

WTF? How can anyone be called an anti-semite for opposing this? It's absolutely nuts to think that any rationally minded Israeli would approve of their military "incinerating" civilians.

I don't get this. I just don't get it at all.

[Taverner]

55. Not at all! Israel has a right to defend itself!

And that means using mustard gas on innocent civilians in Siberia dont you know?

:sarcasm:

Yes, this is beyond fucking criminal, but we're not going to see any justice. And Israel is fucking themselves out of their own homeland.

[leesa]

58. That's correct. And of course we will deny it ever happened also, no

matter how much direct, conclusive evidence is presented. Then all the Republican and Democratic cheerleaders will do an extra cheer for OUR team GO ISRAEL. Yeah!

[Taverner]

62. Thing is this issue is dangerous for the pro-Israel side

By holding Israel beyond reproach, it prevents any chance for REAL dialogue on the subject.

[Pavulon]

68. Reality check

what kind of chemical weapon kills a handful of people on contact, does nothing to the person who recovered the bodies, and leaves no physical trace?

read up on chemicals and their use and the absurd nature of this shines through. This is like claiming cannibalism.

It has zero basis in reality.
Any person who has had basic exposure to chemical weapons training in basic training in any service can back me up here. (well don't know if they get gassed in basic for navy and air force..)

Bottom line this is not happening.

[melnjones]

90. So is this WP? nt

[Pavulon]

97. I do not know

I do know that is not what sarin/vx does.

[melnjones]

108. Hmm...I think some of the concern is

that perhaps something is being used that we are not familiar with. Using sarin/vx would be stupid, as everyone knows what they are. I'd be super surprised if they weren't using WP as a weapon, seeing as how we used it ourselves in Iraq.

[fooj]

128. IMO, just the very reason TO use it.

If called to accountability...they'll just point to who led the way. The US.

[bunyip]

110. If you don't know

then maybe you could get informed before posting, ok?

There are many tactical chemical weapons that kill enemy personnel rapidly then degrade/disperse, allowing friendly troops (and medical teams) access to the area. The Cyanogen family are the most well understood compounds of this type - IIRC it was Cyanogen Bromide that Saddam used against the Kurds.

I don't know any weapon that would cause the terminal effects described, but the Israelis are a very inventive people.

[Zhade]

157. Run a search on this poster's history.

This is pretty consistent for him.

[Pavulon]

185. common sense

yep. miracle shrinking weapon with no chemical trace. Unknown to human science.

Sadness that so many are eager to believe it..

I am very consistent.

[ronnie624]

117. Self delete.

[harun]

144. The point is it is not a conventional weapon

Not that it is a specific chemical they have identified.

And the reason the point is being raised is because the U.S. and Israel raise holy hell about their use and then both use a number of weapons that fall into this category and are inhumane.

That being said I feel all modern mechanized weapons are inhumane but am just pointing out the fairly easy to see hypocrisy in their arguements.

[Pavulon]

188. Chemicals

leave traces in the body and where deployed. They are easily detected by mechanisms available to almost every country in the world.

War is by nature inhumane.

This claim has been made by israel's enemies before, never proven...

[melnjones]

198. And I wonder how much time doctors

have right now to run these tests, what with people dying everywhere and all. You can jump to conclusions in more than one direction, friend.

[pajjr]

200. Pavulon good point!

The rare voice of realism on here!

[IndianaGreen]

203. "War is by nature inhumane." Typical apologia from Israel's megaphones

How would you react had Goering given the same excuse at his trial at Nuremberg?

[Zhade]

156. And so the lying and denying begins.

Why am I not surprised that a "liberal" poster such as yourself is denying this, and essentially calling a number of doctors liars?

Well, I think we know who to believe, and it's not you.

[stepnw1f]

175. indeed

you'd think by now the person would give it up.

[Pavulon]

187. The article

says the doctors do not have a COD. I drink with doctors, some are fuckheads. Doctor does not mean above being a liar.

My wife is a doctor(she is not an asshole). No COD means no reason, not miracle chemical weapon. If someone murders with a knife and then explodes a 500lb bomb on your bodd the knife would will not jump out.


Believe me and common sense, there is no chemical weapon deployed that kills a few people at a time, leave no trace, and fits this bill.

"liberal" has nothing to do with not swallowing bullshit recycled claims with a fat grin.

You go right a head and believe that a military (a nuclear armed one at that) is using chemical weapons against an inferior force.

[LostinVA]

86. "But...but... Israel...."

[shadowknows69]

129. If it's true we are all accomplices in the eyes of the world

we need to stop these madmen soon somehow. Ours, Israel's and Hizbollah's.

[Redstone]

2. Uh, it's hot there. And dry.

Duh.

Redstone

[daleo]

3. Lebanese doctors are familiar with their own climate

It may be something other than chemical weapons, it may be propaganda, but I doubt this is simple ignorance about the effects of the climate.

[Redstone]

5. That's what I was saying...it's propaganda.

Redstone

[Minstrel Boy]

22. You know what George Orwell might say?

"The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them."

[rinsd]

202. Perfect quote and it works for both sides.

[The Stranger]

45. Got a link?

Something -- anything -- to back up your claim?

[Zhade]

160. No. He doesn't.

He's blinded by his pro-Israel bias.

[mom cat]

7. Nor is it a failure to know what bodies look like. I have seen some

of the pictures and they are gruesome.

[Ghost Dog]

9. Indeed. Do you think one or two need to be published right here, mom cat?

Or would some warmongers and other innocents be too sqeamish for that?

[Ms. Clio]

12. the worse it gets

the harder they work.

[mom cat]

116. They have been published here.

[Invalence1]

197. Link

Link returned "404 Unavailable". That was quick.

[Solo_in_MD]

10. Iy may also be from secondaries and contaminates

Myself and several other posters here have looked at what has been posted and it does not look like Willie Pete or napalm to us. I (and presumabmly they too) seen the results up close and personal.

Clearly it needs to be looked at in the aftermath, but without scientific research its not possible to tell what happened. I tend to believe the IAF when they say they are using standard stuff since the price for breaking the rules would be too high, but it still needs to be investigated. Where is CSI when you need them.

[papau]

19. I agree - the similiar Hamas claim turned out to bogus put out by the

"head of ER" who in turn turned out to be the head of public relations at the hospital.


Crude agi-prop is amazingly effective these days.

[Solo_in_MD]

73. Still the large number of complaints should not be ignored

The problem will be preservation of evidence and chain of custody. Impossible given the Muslim burial customs and the overall state of things in Lebanon.

My take is that Israel will be cleared but it will not matter. The Arab street with maintain its a conspiracy against Muslims, the Zionists will maintain the complaints were conspiracy against Jews, and the dead will still be dead.

[papau]

89. true n/t

n/t

[Zhade]

163. And if it's true?

NT!

[ronnie624]

119. Agi-prop my ass.

Bachir Cham, a Belgian-Lebanese doctor at the Southern Medical Centre in Sidon, received eight bodies after an Israeli air raid on nearby Rmeili which he said exhibited such wounds.

He has taken 24 samples from the bodies to test what killed them. He believes it is a chemical.


It sounds like the opinion of a seasoned doctor to me.

[Binka]

130. Don't Bother With Those Two They Spew Pro Israeli Talking Points 24/7

You would think they would get off their knees once in awhile.

[Zhade]

161. And you, of course, have proof of that, right?

If you do, let's see it.

[lumpy]

78. It is being investigated.

And it needs to be investigated. We have seen the photos of blackened bodies, definately not caused by fire. We have read reports by doctors on the scene who indicate that it appears to be chemical burning killing these victims. I would trust an opinion and reports of doctors who are examining the bodies moreso than people who claim to know the truth or are in denial. Ohj I know, the rules of war are never broken..yeah, sure. The world needs to know the truth of war if it is ever to be eradicated.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

155. The price would be too high?

What price?

When have the actions of Israel (or the US) ever come with a significant price?

[Solo_in_MD]

199. IMO if it was determined that Israel was using true WMDs

as in chemical agents, biological agents, or nuclear weapons they would lose the support of the US immediately. Its the one thing Israel can not afford. Note that Willie Pete, naplam and DU do not constitute WMDs.

[Zhade]

162. "the price for breaking the rules would be too high"

Um, I don't suppose I need to point out that the Israeli military is already breaking the rules by indiscriminately bombing the Lebanese population, which is a form of collective punishment and is highly illegal.

Not sure, when all is said and done, how much the Israeli government cares about the rules. I mean, 60+ UN resolutions broken already doesn't really make it look like they care about rules unless it's THEIR rules.

I'm sorry to hear you had first-hand experience with outlawed weapons like WP and napalm. I hope it wasn't experience involving our side using it - it would really suck to lie awake at night thinking of all those innocent people in Fallujah suffering unending burning agony for the crime of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[vincent_vega_lives]

173. indiscriminately bombing?

If Israel was indiscriminately bombing Lebanon do you think there would be 300 or even 400 dead?

While not being as discriminating as they should be, they are certainly NOT bombing indiscriminately, or we would see casualties 10 fold.

[AliceWonderland]

25. Funniest. Post. Today.

Do I *really* have to use the sarcasm tag for this?

[Crunchy Frog]

35. Spontaneous human combustion.

It's a perfectly natural and normal phenomenon.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

43. Reuters & The Sydney Morning Herald...

This ain't Drudge reporting this. Or BartCop.

This reads like reporting.

[Zhade]

159. Even dry heat doesn't shrink corpses to half their size.

Fucking Christ, the excuse-making for Israel NEVER STOPS with you people.

[Ignoramus]

4. Yesterday's democracy now

Had a clip from a story that describes people having been shrunk in size from some new weapon, in Iraq. It's interesting to hear the same thing 2 days in a row about different military actions.

[Redstone]

6. Omigod, we've developed the Dreaded Shrink Bomb! And gave it

to the Israelis!

What a crock of crap this whole "issue" is.

Redstone

[cali]

I can't believe people believe

the Israelis have some diabolical shrink weapon. Seems to me there's an easy way to find the truth about whether or not the Israelis are using some fiendish new weapon; Send tissue samples to a cutting edge lab in Europe, Canada or the US.

[rman]

134. Strawman - nobody is saying Israelis have some diabolical shrink weapon

[cali]

142. As I said in my last post

this matter can easily be settled: send tissue samples to a cutting edge lab in Europe or the US. There is no such thing as a chemical weapon that doesn't leave signature traces. Or is that a strawman too? I find the eagerness to believe that Israel is using some unknown chemical to kill civilians, just a tad odd, considering there is no real evidence that they have done so. Oooh, I suppose being openminded about it, instead of instantly buying into it, makes me some sort of apologist for Israel.

[Zhade]

166. You clearly mocked people with a "shrink weapon" comment.

Open-minded is good. Saying that doctors on-scene who are utilizing their expertise on these bewildering cases is "no evidence" is patently dishonest.

The willingness to instantly dismiss Arab/Muslim doctors could be seen as being an apologist for Israel. Doctors the world over know more than you or I about their patients/bodies, yes?

[Zhade]

165. Um, no one is stupid enough to think they have a "shrink ray" or anything.

But intense chemical burns do have a tendency to shrink that which has been burned.

The "shrinkage" is post-mortem, which is clear from the report.

As far as labs: Canada or Europe, yes, the U.S. no - I wouldn't trust our government not to lean on scientists to clear the Israeli military, if indeed this is going on.

Considering the Israeli government has no problem with disproportionate collective punishment by indiscriminately bombing innocent civilians, I wouldn't put the use of such weapons past them.

[barb162]

195. That's right. It's an inflammatory headline because no one

knows and nothing's been analyzed.

[Zhade]

164. You should really open your eyes.

Your denial is implicating you in support of war crimes.

[rman]

133. That's about High Energy Weapons

Tuesday, July 25th, 2006
U.S. Broadcast Exclusive: Star Wars in Iraq: Is the U.S. Using New Experimental Tactical High Energy Laser Weapons in Iraq?
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/07/25/1442252


From illegal weapons in Lebanon we turn to Iraq. In November, Democracy Now aired a documentary from accusing the United States of illegally white phosphorus during its attack on Fallujah. The Pentagon was forced to admit to the charge after more than a week of denials. The same Italian team has produced a new documentary. It says the United States is now using experimental laser weapons against Iraqi civilians. Today, in another U.S. broadcast exclusive, we bring you an excerpt. It’s called “Star Wars in Iraq”, produced by Maurizio Torrealta and Sigfrido Ranucci for RAI Television.

...

NARRATOR: Al Ghezali reported that he had seen three passengers in a car, all dead, with their faces and teeth burnt, the body intact, and no sign of projectiles.

MAJID AL GHEZALI: There wasn’t any bullet. I saw the teeth, just the teeth and no eyes, all of them. With the body, nothing for the bodies. Just the teeth, and all the -- I mean, the heads were burnt.

...

COL. JOHN B. ALEXANDER: The research and certainly the concepts for direct-energy weapons go back many decades. What is happening is that the technology has now advanced sufficiently that we’re starting to see the weapons come into fruition. In other words, they’re becoming real.

[semillama]

8. What the heck? Are they using a shrink ray?

Back OFF! I'll make you fun sized!



seriously, what could even do that?

[Codeine]

11. I call bullshit on this one.

Does anybody really believe they're using some kind of heretofore unknown shrink-ray technology? Stupid.

[MGD]

13. I'm filing it under "things I seriously hope are bullshit."

[arcane1]

24. does anybody claim they're using a shrink-ray?

strawmen have no place here; it's obvious what that Dr was talking about, and it wasn't a "shrink ray" :eyes:

[Ms. Clio]

52. no kidding, what a total bogus strawman n/t

[Codeine]

65. What was he talking about, then?

Pray tell what sort of weapon makes full-sized humans into tiny-sized?

[arcane1]

67. that's the question being asked in the article

if this had been an Iraqi doctor, you would be asking the question too

[lumpy]

83. On Information Clearing House.

I believe it was on that site. Men holding up bodies as the the flesh/skin had been eaten away; this might be the source of the shinking body corpse.

[Zhade]

168. When did "half the size" become "tiny-sized"?

What is this, a game of telephone? The article above makes it clear this is not a "shrink ray".

[Codeine]

181. Half-sized then.

Since when do unburned bodies shrink to half-size, sufficient to make an adult's body one which could be confused with that of a child, as described in the article.

[adriennui]

29. this is almost too funny to even acknowledge

we're to believe that there are 2 ft. corpses of previously full sized living people.

the fools are becoming so desperate in their attacks of israel.

[bunyip]

111. Humans are 95% water

We saw pictures of many shrunken bodies on the 'Highway of Death' in 1991.

[eridani]

131. But that was caused by normal ordnance, no? n/t

[Codeine]

137. More like 55% water.

Women slightly less on average due to higher body fat. 95% and we'd be like jellyfish! :hi:

[rman]

143. maybe 55 if you're dehydrated. wiki says 72% on average

[Codeine]

151. That's 72% of your non-fat weight.

Add in the fat reserves and the % changes.

[Codeine]

152. More details

Different people have different percentages of their bodies made up of
water. Babies have the most, being born at about 78%. By one year of age,
that amound drops to about 65%. In adult men, about 60% of their bodies
are water. However, fat tissue does not have as much water as lean tissue.
In adult women, fat makes up more of the body than men, so they have about
55% of thier bodies made of water. Fat men also have less water (as a
percentage) than thin men.

So you can see three possible reasons for the discrepancies you have found:
1) Babies and kids have more water (as a percantage) than adults.
2) Women have less water than men (as a percentage).
3) Fat people have less water than thin people (as a percentage).

A forth reason is that different people measure per cent water a little
differently, causing small differences in the answer.

-- Jeffrey Utz, M.D., Neuroscience, pediatrics, Allegheny University

[Zhade]

Again, the alleged shrinkage is apparently post-mortem.

NT!

[Zhade]

167. self-delete

dumb mouse

[acmejack]

14. Doesn't bear any investigation, for the obvious reasons.

[LibertyorDeath]

15. I call bullshit on anyone calling bullshit on this !

How fucking dull some people are I mean really is it possible that an individual can be so fucking dull.

Anyone one with a modicum of common fucking sense realizes that the doctor is describing someone that has been charred from the inside out to the point that it has reduced their overall body size.



http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14180.htm

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[ShortnFiery]

16. WP - seemingly the cruelest way to die

:cry: for all the innocents - May their God hold them close in Heaven.

[LibertyorDeath]

18. "Aren't People Seeing This?" -- Dahr Jamail

"Aren't People Seeing This?" -- Dahr Jamail

http://dahrjamailiraq.com/weblog/archives/lebanon/00042...

>>>>snip<<<<

Astoundingly, the assistant director of the Beirut Government University
Hospital, Bilal Masri, told me today that there was a 30% casualty rate
thus far-meaning that of all the people struck by bombs, 30% of them are
killed.

"This is a higher percentage than we had during the civil war," the
haggard assistant director told me while patients shuffled through the
lobby of the busy hospital, one of the largest in Beirut, "And 55% of
the casualties are children under 15 years of age."

>>>snip<<<<

"The Israelis are bombing everything that moves, along with cutting so
many bridges and roads, so people have been unable or too scared to come
back to work," he said, "So those of us who have stayed are eating,
sleeping and working here 24 hours a day. I myself have barely slept in
the last 13 days."

It was still sinking in that the casualty rate was so incredibly high,
so I asked him how that could be.

"The Israelis are using new kinds of bombs, and these bombs can
penetrate bomb shelters," he explained sternly, "They are bombing the
refugees in the bomb shelters!"

[ShortnFiery]

20. That's horrid. Are those bombs legal? They shouldn't be :(

On edit: Excuse me. :blush: That's a dumb assed question I just put forward.

IMO all bombs ... killing ... war should be illegal. :cry:

[gmtmaster]

23. And making it illegal will stop what??

These people are fanatics.... Get a clue!

[Pavulon]

26. Did you hear, they popped their nukes

why use chemicals when you can jump to the big tamale..?

it is illegal to use chemical weapons.

[ShortnFiery]

31. Is it in your nature to be so crass, or are you having to work on it?

[Pavulon]

44. Just sarcasm

this is like claiming aliens from mars made me late to work. very silly claim. magic shrinking wmd..

[ShortnFiery]

61. OK, as a person who is honestly on the outside looking in ...

at this horrific conflict, it's hard for me to understand all the views and nuances. Yes, even sarcasm can slip past my awareness. Understood.

[Zhade]

171. As you know, the shrinkage is due to horrific burns.

It's not a shrink ray - no one says that, not even the doctors.

It's not a weapon that shrinks people, it's some form of combustion (chemical or otherwise) that is reducing the size of the corpses. Conventional weapons do this to a small extent. So it's not unprecedented.

[Zhade]

170. Yes, the Israeli government is comprised of fanatics.

Thus, making it illegal probably won't stop the Israeli military from collectively punishing innocent Lebanese.

(I'm assuming your post wasn't an example of the racist notion that all Muslims are fanatics, and instead recognized the nutjobs in the Israeli government as being out of control.)

[Solo_in_MD]

74. No evidence at WP has been used in Lebanon

[Zhade]

172. ...except for the doctors' own words.

Hmmm, who do we believe, doctors who are trained to understand the patients they work on, or people who cannot fathom that Israel would use WMD.

Hmmm....

Doctors.

Sorry, their expertise outranks yours, so I gotta go with the idea that they must be seeing SOMETHING unusual.

[Solo_in_MD]

179. I agree with unusual

and should be looked into. Its just not WP or naplam. I've probably seen more of those wounds than most MDs have, espcially in the US.

[vincent_vega_lives]

174. Im sure WP is being used in Lebanon

But only in the south. Unlikley WP would cause the effects discribed anyway.

Most of the civilians have gone north, so these are most likley victims of Air strikes. Hard to guess what caused it, but thermal effects rather than any type of chemical seem most likley.

[daleo]

17. Good point

Meat shrinks when it is cooked. It may be that some process like this is responsible for the claimed effects on human bodies. Diverting the discussion to comic strips or cartoon shows is juvenile.

[AliceWonderland]

30. I know - it's really amazing how stupid people can be

Maybe the allegation is true, maybe it isn't, but this is obviously about the use of burning weapons like WP and their effect on the body. That someone turns this into "a magical shrinking weapon" is just... god.

I guess it's just a sign of how out of touch our society is with the realities of the horrors of war.

[MGD]

38. turns this into "a magical shrinking weapon"

The article described the casualties like this:
"The corpses of these victims are shrinking to half their normal size."

That would require something pretty out of the ordinary...if it's true. There simply isn't enough info to draw an informed conclusion.

[Codeine]

66. The problem is

that WP doesn't burn that way. It makes superhot fragments that burn deep into the body. It's not like napalm burning an entire body.

[Codeine]

69. Charred from the inside out?

What the heck is that supposed to mean? How does one char from the inside out? This is pure distilled nonsense. Engage critical thinking skill.

[ThsMchneKilsFascists]

106. microwaves cook from the inside out, fr'instance

why hit the cognitive dissonance button so early with this?

[lumpy]

84. The problem is:some people want someone

to do their research for them; too 'busy' to read, in denial, can't grasp the meaning, lack curiousity or have the 'lazy Bush' syndrome.

[Zhade]

169. "common fucking sense" and "I support Israel even after all this"...

...don't exist in the same person.

[Pavulon]

21. Recycled Bullshit, non creative horse shit

Palestinians made the same claims.

http://www.antiwar.com/orig/brooks.php?articleid=2957
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article4958.shtml

OP chemicals leave a trace. OP is what chemical weapons are based on.

My wife a doctor has treated farm workers with neurological effects from this family of chemicals used in pesticides. It leaves an effect on the body for weeks.

Sarin and VX leave biological traces in the body and have oily consistencies. They do not evaporate.

Chemical weapons are terrain denial weapons. The only other logical use for chem attack is by a inferior force trying to make up for conventional weakness.

A mass spec would show a chemical on the site and in the dead tissue.

Next it will be lasers from mars.

People died when the explosive burned up their oxygen.

Think about it.

[ShortnFiery]

27. Have you lost all compassion ?

If you wish to convince people to UNDERSTAND your views, you are not going about an effective way of accomplishing such goal. However, if you wish to either infuriate people or "preach to the choir" of supporters, then by all means, you're spot on. :shrug:

[Pavulon]

33. Common sense...

I don't mean to offend you or others with open minds. But this is like posting blood libel or cannibal claims.

Any adult who honestly believes israel is using chemical munitions that leave no trace against an inferior force has a problem.

My comment was meant to respond to the "I call bullshit on any one who disagrees with me post".

[ShortnFiery]

59. OK, I appreciate the explanation and will do more research eom

[MGD]

32. Chlorine trifluoride causes similar kinds of burns

but it wouldn't spare the hair as described; it wouldn't even spare concrete if it came into contact with it. CF3 has never been used in warfare though. I have heard of a new incendiary munition that heats up the air to several thousand degrees and "cooks" people both inside and out. We have used it in Afghanistan. I don't think it would shrink bones though and it certainly wouldn't spare hair. There's not enough information for me to say that this is or isn't bullshit; thus, it's filed under "hopefully bullshit".

[Pavulon]

36. From a tactical review

there is no reason a superior force would use NBC against an inferior force. Artillery is quite capable of killing in its own right.

All chemicals leave a trace. In the body or where deployed.

There is a history of puking this claim by israels enemies. It has never been validated in the many months since it was first made.

I find those things taken as a whole telling.

[MGD]

42. I don't disagree with you

I know R and D is well funded and ever advancing however so I keep a fairly open mind when I hear about strange new casualties.

[Pavulon]

46. nothing is impossible

but this is very improbable. Like I will win the lottery while getting struck by lightning odds.

[bunyip]

120. Pavulon

your willful denial is becoming tedious.

Deaths from Israeli weapons have occurred. Those deaths involve dehydration of the corpse without visible signs of burning (napalm, WP) or subcutaneous bruising (explosives, fuel-air ordinance). The sources of the reports are doctors from Belgium, who are by now very familiar with the terminal effects of Israeli weapons on civilians. This appears to be a new weapon being trialled, and it is killing civilians.

Your transparent effects at trivializing the issue reflect no credit on you.

I think about when American citizens must have sat around laughing:

'Gas chambers?! Ah ha ha! Why would the Nazi gas civilians instead of shooting them?".

"And why would they kill them instead of using them for labor? They have the smaller workforce, you know?".

"Crude Jewish AgitProp - its amazing what people will fall for".

Your humorous posts disgust me, and you have proved to me humanity has changed not at all.

The irony is pretty thick these days.

[Pavulon]

191. That is a big conclusion based on one little article

the article doesn't claim a fraction of what you do.

Feel free to create in your imagination any structure you like.

Reality is chemical weapons leave chemical traces. Even new ones.

Those look like burned and blasted bodies.

This claim has been made by palestinians before. with ZERO scientific backing being found.

AKA it is a jenin massacre..

[daleo]

49. Armies have to test new weapons

The stuff about shrink rays is ridiculous, but that doesn't mean there can't be some new variation of a current weapon being used. Perhaps an incendiary that burns at a much higher temperature than normal.

The "half their normal size" is probably an exaggeration, but high temperates will shrink tissue. The claims deserve independent forensic testing, just as any weapons related claim during a war does. Otherwise, how would you ever know if there was a violation?

[Pavulon]

50. It is a recycled

claim. Thermobaric weapons kill people by burning up their oxygen in a closed space. So do fires started by regular munitions, especially id the people were knocked out by concussion and unable to leave.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermobaric_weapons

simplest means first.

[Pavulon]

37. delete

delete

[lumpy]

85. If your doctor wife

has been treating people in a war zone and has become an expert on chemical weapons of war then the outline presented might be more convincing. It doesn't wipe away the fact that doctors treating war victims would appear to be more familiar with these types of deaths/wounds from war weapons. Chemical weapons are more horrendous and more apt to put 'the fear of god'in people, just as nuclear devices would be more fearsome. Fear is a tremendous weapon of subjugation.

[Pavulon]

88. OP is op

Restricted use pesticides that are op based act in the same manner. There is a blood test for the chemicals effected in the blood. The chemicals in VX and class1 toxic farm pesticides kill in the same manner. EDID aldicarb is an oldy but goody..

Chemical weapons are CHEMICALS and leave a trace. they do not kill 5 people and disappear.

This is recycled myth.

A doctor from raleigh who treats farm workers from surrounding counties exposed to class 1 OPs has plenty of experience. This is less common these days, so they say.

However people are life flighted in from pesticide exposure periodically.

There is no medical doctor in that article that is treating chemical weapon exposure. Not like vx is used every day.

Like I said it took japan very little time to figure out what they were dealing with. College chemistry.

[lumpy]

94. How does one explain the blackened

and burned bodies being reported by doctors in Lebanon? White phosphorus?

[Pavulon]

96. I have no idea

I am not saying these people are not dead. I am not saying they were not killed by israel. I am saying they were not killed by OP based weapons.

Fire burns people. Thermobarics, knocked out by concussion and burned. I have no idea.

[lumpy]

103. White phosphorus used in Iraq.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/11/17/151522

The US military admits using incendiary bombs against Iraqis in Fallujah. The use of white phosphorus could very well explain the burned victims in Lebanon. The information is out there on the net about the use of WP as weapons.
Yes, those people are dead; burned, heavily blackened bodies still intact. Not the result of fire.
You appear to be an expert on OP and versed in chemistry and yet you know nothing about the effects of white phosphorus used as weaponry?
They are dead, the result of Israeli bombing. Their dead bodies are not the result of conventional weapons.
Pictures and articles can be viewed on Information Clearing House if you have the stomach for it.
Maybe it's time to face up to the fact that Israel may not by innocent of using horrifying weapons against civilians.

[lumpy]

105. A weird thing just happened

I read an article and posted same on my last post the site, Democracy Now, re. Use of phosphorus bombs used against Iraqis. Went back to check the article and it comes up to the effect no article available. What gives??? I'll try another site re. the same subject:http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Chemical_weapons_used_in_Iraq_by_US_military,_says_Italian_documentary

What the hell is going on??

[lumpy]

107. I think I got the articleUS admits using WH

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/11/17/1515223&mode=thread&tid=25

Don't know what the problem is. Hope this is the right article.
At least I have read that the Pentagon admitted using WP against Iraqis.

[Solo_in_MD]

123. Several of us here have seen those pictures and also have seen

WP burns up close and personal. Those are not WP or napalm burns.

It not clear what caused them. My best guess would secondary blast of something the bombs ignited. I've read some speculation that it could be thermobaric as well, but I have not seen the kinds of wounds/damage thermobaric weapons cause, so I can not make a conclusion.

I fully support an independent scientific investigation into what caused those injuries. However given Muslim burial custom and the current state of things preserving evidence with a clear provenance seems impossible.

[Codeine]

139. WP is way different that what's being described.

Imagine small chunks of a substance that burn fiercely on contact with oxygen, so hot that they burn right down into your flesh and keep on burning.

Let's see -- remember the scene in Platoon where the dude has a chunk of hot, burning stuff burning down into his back, and his buddy digs it out with the point of his knife? *That's* Willy Pete. Not at all what's being described here.

[funnymanpants]

101. Your links prove nothing

You may be correct in asserting that chemical weapons would leave a trace. However, I can't even fathom why you put two links that assert Israel has used chemica weapons in the past to prove that they are not doing so now. The electronitifidah link simply repeats what some doctors said. Are you suggesting that just because the question has been raised before it is proof that Israel is not using chemical weapons now?

[Tom Joad]

158. Even the conventional stuff is criminal.

[Sven77]

28. the US is shipping and Israel is using

depleted uranium shells.

[Pavulon]

40. Nope

We do not sell DU munition to israel. They do not keep it in inventory. They could make it but DU does not cause people to turn into midgets post mortem.

[leesa]

60. The bunker busters we just sent them were DU.

[Pavulon]

71. possible

Jane's nor any other source can confirm DU is used for ballast in that weapon.

So unless you have classified information or a better source than Jane's and fas it can not be stated as fact.

Jury is out..

[Solo_in_MD]

81. Not true

None of the bunker busters in the US inventory use DU. It would not improve performance. Independent reports on the BLU-109/BLU-113/BLU-122/GBU-28 do not mention DU either.

[lumpy]

98. Maybe it's true the US doesn't sell DU

to Israel. There is very strong evidence that they have it in their arsenal and several claims that they they have used it in Gaza. There are people here who research these issues and would argue those points with you. Your blanket 'nopes' just don't fly. There are too many sites on the net who would be bound to disagree.

[Pavulon]

99. Jane's and FAS

are reliable. electronic intifada is not.

DU is anti armor. Palestinians don't have armor.

common sense.

You use he rounds to kill people without armor. Not a DU dart meant to fire up a tank.

[Codeine]

140. DU is for piercing armor, like on a tank.

A DU round isn't used for it's "nuclear" capability (of which it has none) but because it's a super-dense metal that when formed into a narrow dart and fired at high speed toward an armored target will penetrate the armor; it doesn't even have an explosive capability, it's just a chunk of really strong metal. That's not altogether useful against a bunker whose strength comes from having a very thick layer of reinforced concrete; for that you want a big, heavy bomb that explodes after it penetrates through at least some portion of the bunker's protective layer.

[daleo]

177. Depleted Uranium is super-dense as you say

You also say: "That's not altogether useful against a bunker whose strength comes from having a very thick layer of reinforced concrete; for that you want a big, heavy bomb that explodes after it penetrates through at least some portion of the bunker's protective layer."

It seems like a super-dense substance might be quite useful to provide the extra mass for a "big, heavy bomb that...penetrates...some portion of the bunker's protective layer".

[Codeine]

180. Not really.

You can get that sort of effect much more cheaply from just a big-ass hunk of steel and high explosive guided in by laser. DU just isn't neccessary for penetrating bunkers. A tank projectile needs concentrated, dense mass because it's limited by the size of the tank gun. A bomb can be just as big as you can strap to a plane.

[daleo]

182. F=ma

More m, more F. A more concentrated mass should be able to penetrate more deeply, all things being equal. A denser jacket also ought to provide more protection for the explosive within, while it penetrates into the earth or bunker.

I don't design weapons, but if I did I would consider this.

On edit: I am not the only one who thinks this:

The Pentagon has not confirmed the use of uranium or depleted uranium in the bunker-busters, and it has refused to identify the composition of the dense-metal warheads that enable the missiles to penetrate structures deeply buried under earth, steel and reinforced concrete.

But critics such as British researcher Dai Williams contend that only uranium -- in one form or another -- possesses the density and other characteristics necessary to achieve the penetration levels attributed to such weapons as the 2,000-pound AGM 130C air-to-ground cruise missile, and the guided bomb unit, or GBU, series of laser-guided hard-target penetrators intended to pierce bunkers and other reinforced structures.

Williams and others also claim that patents covering conversion or modification of earlier generation bombs for use as bunker-busters indicate that depleted uranium is being used in these weapons.

http://www.wired.com/news/conflict/0,2100,57959,00.html

[lumpy]

109. Maybe the US doesn't sell DU shells

to Israel and maybe Israel doesn't keep it on inventory lists. But there are strong indications they have used it. I suggest reading some sources on the subject
"Nope" is not a very good response. US selling DU munitions to Israel is irrevelent. Of course DU doesn't cause people to turn into midgets post mortem. DU can cause long lasting health problems and possible death from exposure. Never the less such weapons fall in the category of illegality. Your terse and strict denial that Israel might possess let alone use DU weapons is less than honest. Denial is close to being delusional, can be emotionally hurtful when the truth is finally exposed.It has been hurtful to this country when our military and leadership has had to admit lies. We have lost trust and respect from many countries since lies and deceptions have been revealed


http://sf.indymedia.org/print.php?id=890

[Solo_in_MD]

127. What strong indications?

The article in the link is old and has assertions which have not been independently verified. Also the pros in this area, including FAS & Janes, do not support the assertions. Finally DU is used against armor. It would not be used in bunker busters or against light/soft targets.

Does the IDF have DU rounds is unknown. It is also unlikely they would have used them in Lebanon, even if they did have them.

[Ghost Dog]

41. Cluster Muniitions around civilians too, cf. Human Rights Watch:

http://www.commondreams.org/news2006/0724-17.htm
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
JULY 24, 2006
3:11 PM

CONTACT: Human Rights Watch
Tel: [phone]
[e-mail]

Israeli Cluster Munitions Hit Civilians in Lebanon
Israel Must Not Use Indiscriminate Weapons

BEIRUT, Lebanon - July 24 - Israel has used artillery-fired cluster munitions in populated areas of Lebanon, Human Rights Watch said today. Researchers on the ground in Lebanon confirmed that a cluster munitions attack on the village of Blida on July 19 killed one and wounded at least 12 civilians, including seven children. Human Rights Watch researchers also photographed cluster munitions in the arsenal of Israeli artillery teams on the Israel-Lebanon border.

“Cluster munitions are unacceptably inaccurate and unreliable weapons when used around civilians,” said Kenneth Roth, executive director of Human Rights Watch. “They should never be used in populated areas.”

According to eyewitnesses and survivors of the attack interviewed by Human Rights Watch, Israel fired several artillery-fired cluster munitions at Blida around 3 p.m. on July 19. The witnesses described how the artillery shells dropped hundreds of cluster submunitions on the village. They clearly described the submunitions as smaller projectiles that emerged from their larger shells.

The cluster attack killed 60-year-old Maryam Ibrahim inside her home. At least two submunitions from the attack entered the basement that the Ali family was using as a shelter, wounding 12 persons, including seven children. Ahmed Ali, a 45-year-old taxi driver and head of the family, lost both legs from injuries caused by the cluster munitions. Five of his children were wounded: Mira, 16; Fatima, 12; ‘Ali, 10; Aya, 3; and `Ola, 1. His wife Akram Ibrahim, 35, and his mother-in-law `Ola Musa, 80, were also wounded. Four relatives, all German-Lebanese dual nationals sheltering with the family, were wounded as well: Mohammed Ibrahim, 45; his wife Fatima, 40; and their children ‘Ali, 16, and Rula, 13.

Human Rights Watch researchers photographed artillery-delivered cluster munitions among the arsenal of Israel Defense Forces (IDF) artillery teams stationed on the Israeli-Lebanese border during a research visit on July 23. The photographs show M483A1 Dual Purpose Improved Conventional Munitions, which are U.S.-produced and -supplied, artillery-delivered cluster munitions. The photographs contain the distinctive marks of such cluster munitions, including a diamond-shaped stamp, and a shape that is longer than ordinary artillery, according to a retired IDF commander who asked not to be identified.

[TX-RAT]

153. Something very interesting in your post.

Israel Must Not Use Indiscriminate Weapons

So Katusha rockets loaded with ball bearings, and fired at civilian populations, with the intent to kill as many civilians as possible isn't an indiscriminate weapon?

[Realityhack]

193. To be fair

Human rights watch and a number of other organizations are quite upset at BOTH sides for use of indiscriminate weapons.

[alfredo]

34. I hope this isn't true.

[BrightKnight]

39. smells like pure zero proof bullshit

The Israel using WP story has been going around the internet in several incarnations for a few days now.

Just another round in the propaganda war.

There is no reason for Israel to risk using chemical weapons. There would be no tactical advantage. This is a guerrilla conflict and Israel has more than enough firepower to handle any situation.

This is a very serious allegation, it is not logical and there is no real proof.

[arcane1]

47. the US has used WP and napalm in Iraq without "need"

and nobody here seemed to have a problem believing that was true

I guess the standard of proof is different when it's a foreign country

or rather, a specific foreign country

[Pavulon]

48. WP has psychological

as well as military effect. It burns and kills in a terrible way. Like sniping it impacts the opposing force to see people die in that manner.

I would not have any trouble believing it was used in iraq. (not justifying it)

Standard of proof is a mass spec and a simple blood test that proves exposure to OP.

edit grammar

[Ms. Clio]

54. well, that's peachy that you believe it, since the U.S. admitted it n/t

[Taverner]

56. That's guerrilla not gorilla

And...just because there is no tactical advantage doesn't mean Israel isn't using them.

I honestly think Israel has done a number of things that offer no tactical advantage - and I'm sure it has more to do with Bush pushing them to do so. Remember, he's a Fundie and they have a vested interest in a bloody WWIII

[JackORoses]

87. explain these images away

[Pavulon]

91. This is what VX looks like. (graphic)

It is pesticide for people. It kills by stopping the body from producing an enzyme that controls muscle function.

It does not burn or discolor..It just kills.

[lumpy]

112. Obviously your pic is not the'burn' victims

The blackened bodies, hair unburned, no smell of fire burn, but instead a chemical smell accompaning the bodies indicate napalm or more likely w.phosphorus (the chemical the Us finally admitted using against people in Fallujah).

[Codeine]

135. Indicate napalm?!

Napalm leaves blackened, charred, burned-to-a-crisp bodies. It doesn't leave untouched hair and shrunken, unburned bodies. Napalm is basically fiery death -- jellied petroleum product that sticks to flech and burns, burns, burns. Whatever he's describing isn't napalm, or white phsphorus for that matter.

[democrank]

51. Saw a report about this on

Democracy Now last night. It was chilling.

[k-robjoe]

53. Overview

": ISRAELI assault aircraft have been equipped to carry chemical and biological weapons manufactured at a top secret institute near Tel Aviv, military sources revealed yesterday.Crews of F-16 fighters have been trained to fit an active chemical or biological weapon within minutes of receiving the command to attack, they said.

The weapons are manufactured at the Institute for Biological Research in a suburb of Nes Ziona 12 miles southeast of Tel Aviv.

(...)

There is hardly a single known or unknown form of chemical or biological weapon . . . which is not manufactured at the institute," said a biologist who once held a senior post in Israeli intelligence."

http://www.middleeast.org/archives/1998_11_08.htm

Overview :

http://www.vtjp.org/report/overview.htm

See also :

"Bewildered medical personnel had "never seen anything..like the gas at Tufa." Victims were "jumping up and down, left and right..thrashing limbs around", suffering "with convulsions..a kind of hysteria. They were all shaking." Others were already unconscious. An hour or two later, they would come to. And the convulsions and the vomiting and disorientation and pain would return. And so it would go, for days or, for some, weeks to come."

http://www.mediamonitors.net/jamesbrooks2.html

( http://www.vtjp.org/report/overview3.htm )

[Pavulon]

57. See ft Dietrich

all 1st world nations have nbc labs.

This is recycled crap. Psyop garbage. why use chemicals when you already retain a massive conventional superiority?

chemical weapons are used for 2 reasons:
terrain denial (military)
mass casualties (terrorists)

you don't deploy chemical weapons and kill people 5 at a time.

This is a flaming joke.

Any one who has donned and cleared a mask and had the pleasure of being gassed by their own government can tell you that.

[Ghost Dog]

70. As for "massive conventional superiority", Pavulon,

do consider the larger context and, for example, this recent (24 July) analysis by Uri Avnery, journalist, peace activist, former member of the Knesset, and leader of Gush Shalom in Tel Aviv - and especially the passages preceeding the quote below which discuss the incompetence of the Israeli military and political leadership (emphasis added):

http://www.metimes.com/articles/normal.php?StoryID=20060724-074058-6410r

<snip>

We started a war of days. It turned into a war of weeks. Now they are speaking of a war of months. Our army started a "surgical" action of the Air Force, afterwards it sent small units into Lebanon, now whole brigades are fighting there, and reservists are being called up in large numbers for a wholesale 1982-style invasion. Some people already foresee that the war may roll towards a confrontation with Syria.

All this time, the United States has been using all its might in order to prevent the cessation of hostilities. All signs indicate that it is pushing Israel towards a war with Syria - a country that has ballistic missiles with chemical and biological warheads.

Only one thing is already certain on the 11th day of the war: Nothing good will come of it. Whatever happens - Hizbullah will emerge strengthened. If there had been hopes in the past that Lebanon would slowly become a normal country, where Hizbullah would be deprived of a pretext for maintaining a military force of its own, we have now provided the organization with the perfect justification: Israel is destroying Lebanon, only Hizbullah is fighting to defend the country.

As for deterrence: a war in which our huge military machine cannot overcome a small guerilla organization in 11 days of total war certainly has not rehabilitated its deterrent power. In this respect, it is not important how long this war will last and what will be its results - the fact that a few thousand fighters have withstood the Israeli army for 11 days and more, has already been imprinted in the consciousness of hundred of millions of Arabs and Muslims.

From this war nothing good will come - not for Israel, not for Lebanon and not for Palestine. The "New Middle East" that will be its result will be a worse place to live in.

/...

[Pavulon]

72. That is a very long way

from the chemical weapon that kills 5 people at a time. Has no effect on others handling bodies, and leaves no trace.

Chemical weapons or used for terrain denial or mass killings.

[Judi Lynn]

63. k-robjoe, thanks for posting this information. n/t

[gorbal]

64. Notice any bulldozers around the temple mount lately?

Diggers, construction crews...surveyers?

Just curious.

[Name removed]

75. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Gully Foyle]

76. Short memories

"I can't believe people believe
the Israelis have some diabolical shrink weapon. Seems to me there's an easy way to find the truth about whether or not the Israelis are using some fiendish new weapon; Send tissue samples to a cutting edge lab in Europe, Canada or the US."

How about this
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/09/19/wirq319.xml
Microwave gun to be used by US troops on Iraq rioters
"Using technology similar to that found in a conventional microwave oven, the beam rapidly heats water molecules in the skin to cause intolerable pain and a burning sensation. The invisible beam penetrates the skin to a depth of less than a millimetre. As soon as the target moves out of the beam's path, the pain disappears."

http://chapelhill.indymedia.org/news/2006/07/24450.php
"But one of our CCSS analysts working on our project researching this new generation of "direct energy weaponry" – weaponry based on lasers, microwaves, and in the case of ADS: millimeter waves – has discovered an Italian documentary film from last month (16 May 2006) that is more shocking than probably anything I have ever seen."
.....
"I suggest more than one viewing (approx. 24 minutes in length); it took four or five viewings for me before I began to realize everything I was seeing and hearing. For example, there appear to be definite war crimes committed by U.S. forces, civilians and children among the casualties. Judging from the effects of the weaponry in question, it must include "speed of light" weaponry that defies the generic term "laser" and it is my professional opinion that it also likely includes micro-wave weaponry, judging from the descriptions of bodies that seem to have inexplicably exploded. And I cannot imagine what made the bodies that were struck by bullets after being exposed to some sort of ray SHRINK TO THE SIZE OF APPROXIMATELY ONE METER IN LENGTH: beyond my "security clearance" I suppose."

[Ghost Dog]

141. Thanks Gully. This film can be viewed...

Raytheons Directed Energy Weaponry
by x • Friday July 07, 2006 at 10:18 AM
http://chapelhill.indymedia.org/news/2006/07/24450.php

<snip>

(Viewed discretion advised – graphic footage, graphic content, extremely frightening implications – even as a national security expert and former professor for the U.S. Naval War College, this is way beyond my comfort zone.)

This film can be viewed in English, Italian or Arabic by clicking on http://www.rainews24.it/ran24/inchieste/guerre_stellari_iraq.asp and locating the appropriate icon on the right side of your screen. It takes a few minutes to download. (A short summary and the written text of the documentary appears at the bottom of this message below the asterisks.)

There is considerable evidence contained in this documentary to indicate that the U.S. military has deployed a new generation of weaponry in Iraq for which adjectives such as "nightmarish" and "horrific" fall far short. The comments by Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld and General Myers are especially revealing.

<snip>

Movie opens with a fight scene in Baghdad, April 2003. Title: Starwars in Iraq. Driver of car, Majid Algazali, a violilnist, tells us about bodies he has seen, explaining to the filmmaker what he saw during the American attack. He thinks the US used experimental weapons.

He says, just the heads were burnt, faces and eyes burnt and no marks on the body. The terrain with the buried bodies contained a space of only about a meter in length. The didn't know how a body could shrink like that.

Chief surgeon at hospital describes bodies which were cut in pieces, some with heads missing, arms cut off. He didn't know what kind of weapon was used. He thinks it is something experimental.

<snip>

In addition to describing the battle, Majid al Ghezali wanted to show Patrick Dillon the site near the airport where this mysterious weapon was used, along with the traces of fused metal still visible, and the irregularly sized ditches where the cadavers were buried before they were exhumed.
We sought out Majid al Ghezali to hear more details of his story. We met up with him in Amman and he pointed out some inexplicable peculiarities on the bodies of the victims of the battle for the airport.

MAJID AL GHEZALI: Just the head was burnt. In the other parts of the body there wasn't anything.

NARRATOR: Al Ghezali reported that he had seen three passengers in a car, all dead, with their faces and teeth burnt, their clothes intact, and no sign of projectiles.

MAJID AL GHEZALI: There wasn't any bullet. I saw their teeth, just the teeth, and they had no eyes, all of them, there was nothing on their bodies.

NARRATOR: There were other inexplicable aspects: the terrain where the battle took place was dug up by the American military and replaced with other fresh earth; the bodies that were not hit by projectiles had shrunk to just slightly more than one meter in height.

MAJID AL GHEZALI: Except the ones killed by the bullets, most of them became very small. I mean... like that... Something like that.

/...

But, note, no description here of blackening of bodies (I've had no time to watch, yet), nor of projectiles being employed (this is about "energy beam" weapons, it seems). Still, seemingly experimental use in the field.

[lumpy]

145. Viewing the film-made me shudder

Development of such unconventional weapons are beyond evil. These weapons are being developed to
kill, maim humans in a most horrific manner. I hope everyone views this remarkable film. We must know what our governmnt is doing in developing 'advanced' weaponry . Press interview with Rumsfeld: who admits that these 'star wars' weapons, some still in developmental stage, might be pulled to be used in selected operations. Very possible that they have already been use.

Please everyone, view this video, thanks to GhostDog and Gully.

[allemand]

77. Could white phosphorus or a similar substance have such an effect?

"Why would white phosphorus burn flesh but not clothes?"

When white phosphorus burns:
P4 + 5 O2 ? 2 P2O5

The formed phosphorus pentoxide absorbs water from your tissues and quickly converts into phosphoric acid which then burns your skin:

P2O5 + 3 H2O ? 2 H3PO4
http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=99222

The human body is 65% water. Combined with the heat generated by oxidation this could be an explanation for the massive destruction of tissue (bodies "half their normal size").

[Gully Foyle]

79. Rumors

Weren't there similar rumors about weapons tested in the Panama invasion?
I recall a documentary that mentioned either laser weapons or microwave weapons and burned bodies.
People tend to forget that new weapons do get battlefield tested during wars. With both this and Iraq media muzzled
no one really knows what is happening until well after the fact.

[daleo]

80. I saw a documentary on this, years ago

There were such claims, and they showed bodies that seemed to have something pretty unusual happen to them. For all I know, it may have been the effect of heat and decay, though. Still, the film was chilling.

[lumpy]

113. That certainly would explain shrinking

effect of victims. Thanks for the info.

[lumpy]

114. That certainly would explain shrinking

effect of victims. Thanks for the info.

[lumpy]

115. That certainly would explain shrinking

effect of victims. Thanks for the info.

[Solo_in_MD]

124. Its not WP or Napalm

Ive seen the results of both up close. Not sure what this is. My best guess is secondary explosiong of material in the area caused by the bomb. It should be looked at scientifically when this is over.

[saigon68]

82. Looks like the I/P forum has shown up in this thread too

[lumpy]

147. Like you to check this out, saigon68

I always appreciate your input. This film is very disturbing, revealing and might explain what is going on with some of these mysterious deaths.
I'd like to her tour reaction to the video.

http://www.rainews24.it/ran24/inchieste/guerre_stellari_iraq.asp

[saigon68]

183. Its an Italian explanation of an Anti-Personnel laser mounted on a humvee

I have never seen or heard of anything like it.


But then again I am "Not In the Loop"

[progressivebydesign]

92. Makes me wonder abou the entire microwave weapons talk...

We can't possible know what is in the arsenals of militarized countries that have access to all of the US secrets, technology, and money. I doubt we have a clue about most of what is out there and can be used against innocent civilians.

I just wonder when the fuck ANYONE is going mention that Israel has gone off the deep end here.. "just defending herself", yeah whatever. Let's see how well that defense works for an abused woman. Her husband slaps her, she carves him up with a machete. But.. but.. she was only defending herself! Notice that most of the people who parrot that line are usually hardline against women who kill an abusive spouse?

[Pavulon]

93. WMD killing 5 at a time

with no trace. No chemical residue.

This is a recycled lie.

[FormerDem06]

95. My theory is that there were some guys with some chemicals....

probably trying to make some crude munitions to fire at Israel, and then a conventional bomb comes down on their heads. The incendiary burned up most of the chemical, before it could take it's full effect?

[funnymanpants]

102. Not a very substantial theory

Your theory has not proof to back it up. Did you read the article? If your theory were true, then the doctors should have recognized what caused the burns.

Again, I am not saying I have any idea either way.

[Solo_in_MD]

126. What you are describing is called secondary explosions

and is not limited to crude bomb making supplies. It can include cooking fuel, gasoline, munitions, etc.

My current belief is that the odd damage are indeed the result of secondary explosions, but Ihave nothing concrete to back it up other than inference based on the few number and scattered locations. An investigation is clearly called for.

[Kailassa]

104. Do you get paid per post? In what currency? n/t

[Binka]

132. Get Real. Nobody Would Pay Somebody This Stupid. n/t

[Pavulon]

189. $$=Boredom, lack of sleep.(nt)

[lumpy]

118. At this point all I have left to say

is bullpucky. The battle of semantics and words is over for me. I've made up my mind, the blacked bodies and eye witness accounts is proof enough for me. The many reputable observers, reports and graphic evidence is very convincing.

[Judi Lynn]

121. You'd better believe it. Thanks for giving some of us something to

think about.

Their emotional response to everything is hysterical, self-seeking, and blind. They can straddle the most appalling contradictions by simply changing the subject, and never admitting anything.

[lumpy]

150. Judy Lynn, have you checked this:

http://www.rainews24.it/ran24/inchieste/guerre_stellari_iraq.asp

This is a video, thanks to Gully and GhostDog who seem to have a handle on what is new in the weapons world. Well worth watching. Always read and appreciate your posts

Lumpy

[Ghost Dog]

136. Opportunity seized to conduct some live experiments in the field?

- But this is all speculation at this stage, until evidence has been properly analysed and the process and results published and peer-reviewed.

[lumpy]

146. Check this out ,progressiveby design

http://www.rainews24.it/ran24/inchieste/guerre_stellari_iraq.asp

[funnymanpants]

100. Did anyone bother to read the article?

"We are sending off samples tomorrow, but we have no confirmation yet that illegal weapons have been used," Health Minister Mohammed Khalife said.

...

Television footage shows some bodies, such as those of 20 civilians killed when an Israeli missile hit the van in which they were fleeing the border village of Marwaheen, blackened in the way Cham describes. No one knows what killed them.

...

"We've never seen anything like it but what the causes are I don't want to speculate. We have no scientific answer."

The article merely poses a question. I don't see anyone asserting with absolute certainty that Israel used chemical weapons. They are admitting to speculation. For myself, I have no idea. I don't think either side should jump to conclusions.

[Ghost Dog]

138. Yes, this is all speculation at this stage, see #139 above.

The original Reuters article, btw, is at present "Top News" here: http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=TopNews&storyid=2006-07-26T183647Z_01_L26336023_RTRUKOT_0_TEXT0.xml&WTmodLoc=NewsArt-L1-RelatedNews-4

[General Paranoia]

122. Fuel-air or Thermobaric weapons?

I may have missed it but you should consider Fuel-air or Thermobaric explosives in addition to Willie Pete and Napalm (and it's reformulations). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel-air_explosive

The effects of all of these weapons are horrible but I do wish people would be careful when they use the term "chemical weapons" to indicate they are not talking about true weapons of mass destruction (nerve gas or very large volumes of older poison gases). If you use the term "nuclear weapon" to refer to depleted uranium projectiles then you muddy the water and trivialize what real weapons of mass destruction can do.

I have heard many people and the media refer to chemical explosions as if they were a nuclear explosions. As a result, very very few people have even a vague hint about how bad a true nuclear chain reaction can be. Likewise with a large scale nerve gas attack. We are not talking about dozens, hundreds or thousands of people - we are talking about hundreds of thousands, millions and end the end billions!

If anybody involved in this nightmare uses true weapons of mass destruction (I am not talking about a few grams of nerve gas or shells of cyanide), things will get out of control unbelievably quickly and no one will be able to stop it. Likewise virtually no one will be able to truly comprehend what will happen. :evilfrown:

[Solo_in_MD]

125. Great Post

Way too many people here are misusing terms they do not understand and the resulting confusion is not helping things. When corrected on the technical details some of them get quite testy.

My bet is still on secondaries caused by items stored locally, and I want to see a proper scientific investigation.

[lumpy]

148. Check out this video, Solo

http://www.rainews24.it/ran24/inchieste/guerre_stellari_iraq.as

This might answer some questions about advanced weaponry being developed. Some of us have been curious about these exotic weapons and the possibility that they might already been employed.
Would really appreciate your response to this remarkable video. Thanks

[Solo_in_MD]

184. Bad link

[godai]

192. Working link here

http://www.rainews24.it/ran24/inchieste/guerre_stellari_iraq.asp

[unda cova brutha]

149. no doubt we supplied the chemical weapons to Isreal

just like we did to Iraq.

Now that is it proven that Iareal is using chemical weapons, will we invade there next?

[Solo_in_MD]

176. Many doubts actually

- That we supplied chemical WMDs to Isreal
- That Isreal is using proscribed weapons.
- That Israel is using DU
- That there is an incredible shriking raygun

There are some oddly marked corpes. That is about all at this time.

[BrightKnight]

154. It's probably related to the rumored project Tsantsa.

The chemical that they are using is a similar to compound found in the huito plant.

[twaddler01]

178. Don't you love war?

:eyes: /sacrasm

[Taxloss]

186. How do you compress the body's long bones?

Even total desiccation wouldn't do that. You can't suddenly halve the length of a femur.

I sincerely doubt this is true.

[Solo_in_MD]

194. You can't...

But the eyewitness is quite sincere, and truly believes what he saw. Which is the classic problem with eyewitnesses, since it cannot be correct. The right approach would be to take tissue samples etc, but the bodies have been moved according to the film.

Would a depleted bone theory be in bad taste?

[JudyM]

205. Good point. But we sure swallow all these allegations whole, don't we? nt

[Name removed]

190. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[barb162]

196. "He believes it is a chemical" Is he a chemist?

[IndianaGreen]

204. BBC showed the pictures of the burned flesh on patients

and they looked just like the ones taken of victims of American fire bombing in Fallujah and Ramadi. Nice to see that Israel has as many psychopaths in her military as we do in ours!

[0007]

201. We're living in civilized times or is it nothing has ever changed?

"NEVER AGAIN" DOES NOT APPLY TO THEM
Israelis Use Poison Gas Against Palestinian Children

Read More and see photos here...