Mexican Leftist Says He Is President, Vows Protests

[CatWoman]

MEXICO CITY (Reuters) - The leftist contesting Mexico's July 2 election on the grounds of vote-rigging declared himself president on Wednesday and said his supporters would step up a campaign of civil disobedience next week.

Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador, who lost the vote count to conservative rival Felipe Calderon by a tiny margin, said in a television interview that a rally on Sunday in Mexico City would show his backers have the energy to keep up protests.

``I am already president. I won the presidential election. I am president of Mexico by the will of the majority of Mexicans,'' Lopez Obrador told Univision's ``Here and Now'' show, scheduled to be aired on Thursday.

``I think the people will not tire,'' he added. ``We are going to beat (our opponents) because the people are on our side.''

The leftist, whose fraud allegations are being examined by Mexico's electoral court, has torn into Calderon in countless interviews in recent days. His rival has opted to keep a lower profile and set about preparing his presidency.

Despite strong rhetoric about a ``dirty war'' against him, Lopez Obrador has kept protest rallies by his backers peaceful. This week, supporters protested in the lobby of an upscale hotel and lit hundreds of candles in the Zocalo square.

The leftist plans to announce a civil resistance campaign at a rally in central Mexico City on Sunday as the next step in pushing for a vote-by-vote recount.

``We are not going to sit here with our arms folded,'' he said in an advance copy of the interview made available to Reuters.

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/world/international-mexico-election.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

[goforit]

1. Viva el Obrador!!!

[Reckon]

2. There's still hope for Mexico.. Go lefty Go!

Thank's CatWoman!

[Rex]

3. Wow, I didn't know Mexico was more democratic then America.

Our Dem leaders got drowned out by the M$M, instant dismissal. Viva la Mexico! I guess we will have to look to Mexico to lead the way in politics.

[MasonJar]

4. We didn't go to the streets weekafter week either. If we had, the

world might be very different now.

[Fredda Weinberg]

13. Speak for yourself

I was at the UN every weekend with VoterMarch until the Supremes came down with their bizarre decision. Where were you?

[Just Me]

5. Kinda' makes us look,..."weak",...

Or so freakin' brainwashed and/or pacified that we either can't or won't fight back.

We are "taught" to be loyal and passive and absorb dates of bullshit. We are not taught to think or respect principles of decency and dignity. Are we?

[Sadie5]

6. Mexicans are showing us

What we should have done in 2000 and again in 04. Go Mexico!

[Cha]

22. We weren't outraged en

masse.. just in our individual homes. Maybe if we knew then what we know now?

[Generator]

67. Also we had no leader

Just someone calling for "healing." Worst mistake of Senor Kerry's life.

[lovuian]

7. Its going to be peaceful for awhile but this could go into a

revolution...

[hogwyld]

9. As the saying goes

A little revolution at times is a good thing. The tree of liberty must be fed with the blood of patriots and the mexican tyrants trying to keep power.

[RangerSmith]

12. yeah, a lot of folks think thats where this is heading

A lot of private investors are setting up to pull out of Mexico right now and there isn't any way that govt can provide for the people without lots of private sector help. The "money" has been coming out for a couple of weeks now.

[skids]

18. Yep, fraud certainly does have its price/consequences.

...it's just too bad they aren't borne solely by the fraudsters.

[RangerSmith]

20. Truth be told

I've never seen a situation down there that wasn't all about fraud and corruption regardless of which side was in charge. Sadly, I don't see anything on the horizon changing that either.

[Adelante]

29. That's true enough, but this isn't helping anything

Do you think anyone here cares at all about what the Mexican public thinks? Nah. Three-quarters of Mexicans want the elections tribunal to make this decision. Two-thirds believe AMLO lost the election and trust the IFE more. A majority does not want a recount or an annulled election, never mind these protests, which are subverting Mexican democracy by interfering with and bringing pressure on the voting system established by law and agreed to by all parties. Mexicans want their election system to work as intended by law. This has been consistent. I wish we could stop trying to make this about 2000 and 2004 in the US. It's about what Mexicans want, not about what we want. If there is evidence of fraud, it has to be proven to the TRIFE, not to DU, and not in the Zocalo. I know by now that minds here are made up, closed shut, and I'm wasting my breath, but it's really a shame to pretend a million protesters, out of a population of 100 million, are expressing what Mexico wants. I agree with you 100% - corruption on all sides, very much including the PRD. I don't care for either of these candidates, especially, but I do care about the elections system. It needs work maybe, but it is far superior to anything most countries in the world have come up with. It should not be circumvented for anyone.

[mhatrw]

45. Where are you getting these numbers?

What percentage of people who voted for Obrador believe AMLO lost the election and trust the IFE more?

[Adelante]

50. I haven't seen that figure

A new poll since my post shows better support for a recount, which I also support.

The survey from Ipsos-Bimsa published in “El Universal” shows that 52.5% of those polled believe Mr. Calderon from the ruling National Action Party, PAN, was the victor on July 2, while 38.1% support Mr. Lopez Obrador from the opposition Democratic Revolution Party, PRD.
However when asked about the vote recount, 48% said they were in favour with only 28% against.

The survey was undertaken between July 21/24 involving a thousand adults from all the country with a plus/minus margin of 3.5%.

The survey also showed that 43% support Mr Lopez Obrador call for a peaceful “civilian resistance” to press for the vote by vote recount. So far the “resistance” has been expressed through rallies, protest marches and blocking some of the big companies which allegedly supported financially the (winning) Conservative candidate.

But even when 53% consider the election was “fair”, 42% approve the challenges contesting the electoral results presented by Lopez Obrador.

When specifically asked who the Federal Electoral Tribunal should declare the legitimate winner of the presidential election, 45% said Calderon; 26% Lopez Obrador and 20% said the election should be annulled.

http://www.mercopress.com/Detalle.asp?NUM=8416

[Bridget Burke]

53. Who commissioned the survey?

Ipsos Bimsa is the Spanish name for Ipsos Ideas...

With Ipsos, you get the power of more than 5,000 researchers offering a boutique-like level of service. Our people are organized into international skill-based teams, and are specialists and leaders in advertising testing, marketing studies, media and internet research, opinion polling, and customer relationship management.

Ipsos companies form an integrated network capable of fulfilling domestic, regional and international research and consulting needs. They offer in-depth knowledge of their respective geographic region and manage key international accounts.

www.ipsos.com/what/global.aspx

It's interesting that the site hosting the story specializes in the Falklands/Malvinas--& other countries in the South Atlantic. They're farther away from Mexico than Texas is.

[Adelante]

60. What's interesting about that?

The story has been receiving a lot of attention in the southern hemisphere. Anyway, it came up on Google, it was in English, it related to my post, it was new information to me, so I added it. Maybe you can find it in Texas, too.

[Bridget Burke]

62. This Houston Chrohnicle story refers to the survey--but only briefly.

Forty-eight percent of the population favor a recount, compared with 28 percent who oppose it, according to a survey published Thursday in Mexico City's El Universal newspaper.

www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/headline/world/4077668.html

Most of the article covers other issues:

July 27, 2006, 7:06PM
Mexican party lost way, former members claim
PAN responds that charges of abandoned ideals are sour grapes

By MARION LLOYD
Copyright 2006 Houston Chronicle

MEXICO CITY — For 17 years Fernando Aboitiz helped the National Action Party transform itself from an idealistic underdog opposing an autocratic regime to Mexico's dominant political force in a multiparty democracy. But along the way, Aboitiz says, the party lost its soul....

National Action was founded by urban business owners and lawyers in 1939 to defend the interests of the Roman Catholic Church, whose powers had been dramatically curtailed by the 1917 constitution, and to work for democracy in Mexico.

For the next 50 years, party activists struggled against the Institutional Revolutionary Party, or PRI, which ruled Mexico for seven decades. The PRI's grip on power was broken six years ago when Vicente Fox of the PAN won the presidency.

But to some dismayed party purists, the National Action Party began compromising its democratic credentials in the late 1980s by accepting public money for campaigns and making deals with the PRI in exchange for recognition of its city and state election victories.

This a TRULY "interesting" article. The Chronicle covers Mexico pretty well.

[Adelante]

65. Any analysis of the history of any Mexican political party

Is, uh, interesting - no doubt about that. :D

[mhatrw]

54. All those numbers prove is that TV affects some Mexicans minds

as much as most US minds.

[Adelante]

58. Do you watch Mexican TV?

If you're implying coverage has been particularly anti-AMLO or neglectful of AMLO, it hasn't, and leftist pundits are on every night. The whole situation is covered pretty thoroughly, actually, from the various viewpoints.

[slackmaster]

87. I watch Mexican TV only for the "eye candy"

O8)

[Adelante]

88. Heh

There is that :D

[dreamsvsnightmares]

69. I find it interesting that votes were thrown away

and the fact that there was such a slim margin between the two. I hope that they can do a better job protesting there then we ever did here

[Zhade]

70. "If there is evidence of fraud" - IF?

There's video evidence of Calderon's people stuffing some ballot boxes and opening others illegally.

There IS evidence.

[Adelante]

86. There is a video, not evidence

There was a video AMLO showed the world and claimed it was a PAN operative stuffing ballot boxes. It has appeared on many websites, including this one, many times, and in the media. AMLO's party representative at that casilla in Salamanca, Guanajuato backed up the poor blue-shirted (PAN color!!) schmuck in the video, who was sorting misplaced ballots, not stuffing ballot boxes, in a room full of poll workers, officials and observers. The head of the PRD in Guanajuato state also verified that there was no fraud going on. The only fraud was AMLO's in misrepresenting the video to the public. This was cleared up within a couple of days of the election, but it keeps rearing its ugly head. It's a shame. There's a surprising level of innocence in these threads. AMLO cut his teeth in PRI. He does what he's been trained to do, play dirty like everybody else. There is no earthly reason to trust him any more than you would any other politician you don't know. Sorry, Zhade, to go off on you, but I really feel sorry for this guy on the video, a small town school teacher serving his country on election day and this is what he gets, a ruined reputation. (Please don't anyone show me Narco News or Greg Palast - they got it wrong, just like AMLO.)

[Judi Lynn]

91. More evidence exists, as well, obviously.

Some people might imagine the guilty parties trapped inside the building where they attempted to destroy ballots is almost like EVIDENCE.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~snip~
A picture saves 70,000 votes: Monday night in Comalcalco, Tabasco.
Photo: D.R. 2006 La Jornada

Study this photograph from today's La Jornada. A campaign truck covered
with PAN party logos, slogans, and the faces of three of their candidates
- the one in the middle is Caldero'n - is parked in front of a building.
>From the balcony of the colonial-style structure shines an illuminated
sign with three large letters: I... F... E. Citizens have arrived by foot
and by bicycle and have blocked the entrances to the IFE building and the
PAN truck. Not all of them appear in the photo, but there are 500 of them
and they are hopping mad. Trapped inside are at least ten IFE officials
who, according to eyewitnesses, illegally entered the building, brought
sealed ballot boxes out into the patio, and began to open them, breaking
the official seals. They were seen revising anew the "actas" with the vote
tallies and recounting the ballots, without, as the law requires, the
presence of representatives from all the political parties. The neighbors
sounded the alarm and the electoral delinquents have been caught in the
act.

Where are the soldiers of the Mexican Army that supposedly are guarding
the ballot boxes at the 300 IFE offices like this one throughout the
country? What about the police? The events last night in Comalcalco reveal
the ugly truth: the highest authorities of the nation, in their complicity
with an obvious electoral fraud, have forfeited their legitimacy and the
people have self-organized to fill the power vacuum. They have converted
the IFE offices into a prison for white-collar criminals and have seized
the PAN truck that, the neighbors believe, was waiting to carry their
votes to democracy's graveyard.

La Jornada reports:

"The electoral assistants argued that the (IFE) district council
president, Toma's Alfonso Castellanos, told them to enter the offices and
for that reason the military soldiers that guarded the locale allowed them
to enter."

The IFE electoral district with its seat in Comalcalco delivered a
punishing 70,000 vote margin of victory to presidential candidate Andre's
Manuel Lo'pez Obrador of the Democratic Revolution Party (PRD) over the
PAN's Caldero'n: 73,473 for Obrador vs. only 3,863 for Caldero'n. Voter
turnout in this district, at 70.08 percent, exceeded the national average
of 58.9 percent. The PAN has almost no votes to protect in Comalcalco. The
PAN party truck - now held by the citizens - was there to haul away and
"disappear" the votes cast for Obrador.

When local PRD officials contacted the IFE boss in the Tabasco state
capital of Villahermosa, Ai'da Castillo, to report the tampering of the
ballots and ask about the alibi that the IFE had authorized the opening of
sealed ballot boxes, Castillo, reports La Jornada, said she was
"surprised" by the news. The locals then contacted a notary public to come
take legal testimony about the unauthorized break-in. PRD officials then
headed to the offices of the Special Prosecutor for Attention to Electoral
Crimes in Villahermosa to file a legal complaint. Federal Senator Ce'sar
Rau'l Ojeda of the PRD, a close ally of Lo'pez Obrador, headed to Comalcalco
as La Jornada filed its story last night and, at press time, the ten IFE
officials and the PAN truck chauffer, caught red-handed, were still held
prisoner inside the offices.
(snip/...)

http://post.thing.net/node/946

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

DU'ers who haven't read DU'er cal04's original post with photograph of the building, and then Calderon truck and people outside will appreciate a chance to see this thread which has been archived, as it was posted July 11th:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1613478

[Adelante]

92. I'm interested to see how that one turns out

How the TRIFE will view that situation in Comalcalco, assuming it's been made part of AMLO's case against the IFE, will be interesting. The only thing past the point of what's in your post that I remember reading was that the PRD had asked for the pacquetes to be opened and that's what was happening there. Also that the PAN filed criminal charges against PRD over the incident. I don't support either version of the story, because there is too little information on it that I have seen (other than what you have posted that has been reposted very many places) and I haven't been able to form an opinion. I don't call it evidence of fraud, yet, but it may well turn out to be.

[lumberjack_jeff]

26. If the ruling party subverted the democratic process, it should. n/t

[w4rma]

8. Good. (nt)

[Last Lemming]

10. Paging John Kerry

[marmar]

63. That's just what I was thinking...

Why is that leftists all over the world act like they have a pair, but not ours?

[Barkley]

96. Paging Al Gore

[Vidar]

11. Viva Obrador. The only bit of good news today. Thanks CatWoman

[quiet.american]

14. Still hate this "leftist" bull.

Note how Mr. Obrador is referred to as a "leftist," yet his opponent is given the label, "conservative," instead of the "leftist" equivalent -- "right-winger."

Aside from that, KUDOS to Mr. Obrador.

[mopinko]

19. that's bugging the shit out of me, too

leftist, leftist, leftist.
you go man. stand strong.

[Just Me]

41. Yup. He's a human being who gravitates towards serving his people.

THAT is now called "leftist".

I guess that makes "rightist" those who gravitate towards abusing their people.

Maybe, we should advantage ourselves of this "black/white", "good/evil" ideology and start spreading the word: the "right" are self-serving, abusive power mongers who deceive, betray, manipulate and USE their people,...they are vicious dictators.

Hitler was a rightest. All dictators are "rightests".

[Joanne98]

15. We need to start putting the word "fascist" in front of the names of

conservative politicians.

[Virginia Dare]

17. Agreed...n/t

[lonestarnot]

21. No other word for them! unless it's

fuckers on the right!

[Ken Burch]

51. Or "FOTR's" for short.

nt.

[go west young man]

56. Sounds good. I think I'll be using it!

[Ken Burch]

97. Be my guest and use it in good health.

nt

[Virginia Dare]

16. Wow, freedom on the march in Mexico....n/t

[WhiteTara]

23. Obrador has a new name

Leftist. The spin rags are so blatant. He is called Leftist 3 times in the blurb. I didn't have the stomach for reading the rest of the article.

[skids]

25. Actually he has an old name too: "Lopez Obrador"

...because it is incorrect to call him solely by his second last name. FWIW.

[Judi Lynn]

28. I was surprised to hear a crowd in a newsclip yelling "Obrador,"

repeatedly, recently, by itself. I would have assumed Lopez to be used, as well, but in this case, they use the second one. I'm not sure why.

[WhiteTara]

30. Oh, I didn't realize Lopez was a surname

thanks for the tip. I personally think he is an honorable man and seems to have an iron will, which is what it takes. I hope he stays out of small planes and that he always has the wind at his back.

[Judi Lynn]

35. He also has a nickname, "El Peje."

Here's an article from last year which mentions it:

“Peje el Toro Is Innocent!”
The March of Silence for López Obrador in Mexico City


By Quetzal Belmont
Special to The Narco News Bulletin
April 29, 2005

“Peje el toro is innocent,” one could read on the signs the people carried in support of Andrés Manuel López Obrador, the impeached head of the Mexico City government.

The phrase references the classic Mexican film Pepe el Toro (“Pepe the Bull”), starring Pedro Infante, in which the protagonist is falsely accused and the people come out in his defense. Obrador gets his nickname El Peje from the pejelagarto, a well-known fish from his home state of Tabasco.
(snip/...)

http://www.narconews.com/Issue37/article1273.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Mexico's runner-up won't quit

Web Posted: 07/09/2006 12:00 AM CDT
Dane Schiller
Express-News Mexico Bureau Chief

MEXICO CITY — Flexing his mighty populist muscles but not throwing a punch yet, Andrés Manuel López Obrador rallied 280,000 chanting supporters Saturday in what looks to be a protracted and emotional fight to overturn the tightest presidential election in this nation's history.

Standing in front of the centuries-old National Palace, López Obrador called for people to march on Mexico City from throughout the nation, but asked they stay peaceful and not block highways.

"This has been and will continue to be a pacifist movement," he said. "Don't fall into the trap of our enemies who want to provoke us."

Surveying the crushing crowd that endured brutal sun and light rain, López Obrador vowed that he would deliver "true change" to a nation rife with inequality and injustice.

"You are not alone! You are not alone!" chanted the crowd, thick with yellow flags and T-shirts showing the leftist Democratic Revolution Party colors.

The people were energized and angry, but also fighting back exhaustion from being packed together while waiting for López Obrador. Coming from around the nation, many of them had been on buses all night.
(snip)

The man, whose love of a fight has earned him the nickname el Peje, for the Pejelagarto, a fish with an alligator-like snout and razor teeth, almost showed his softer side and at one point looked to be on the verge of tears.
(snip/...)

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/metro/stories/MYSA070906.01A.zocalo_rally.17201ee.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I know someone else could explain it better, but when there are two last names names at the end of one's name, the first one appearing is the father's last name, the second is the mother's.

I think the father's name is generally used as "the" last name when one is used, but as I posted above, I am almost certain I heard, on a news clip, crowds of people shouting "Obrador," recently, so obviously something more is needed to understand this.



http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/07/09/ap/world/mainD8IO50MO0.shtml

[WhiteTara]

44. my friend ues "y" between her

two last names, as "Lopez y Obrador". Thanks.

[Bridget Burke]

61. "Obrador" is better for shouting than "López Obrador"....

The great Spanish poet, Federico García Lorca, is often called just "Lorca" in this Spanish Wikipedia entry. "García" is a very common Spanish name; "Lorca" is not.

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federico_Garc%C3%ADa_Lorca

However López Obrador is only called "López Obrador" in this entry; the "short" version (López) is not used. Perhaps because there's many a "López" in the Mexico City phone book?

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andr%C3%A9s_Manuel_L%C3%B3pez_Obrador

Álvar Núñez Cabeza de Vaca was the first Spanish explorer of Texas (& other parts of the Southwest.) But "Cabeza de Vaca" is far more distinctive than just plain "Núñez."

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabeza_de_Vaca

There are always exceptions to the rule.

[Lochloosa]

24. Get over it.

:sarcasm:

[donkeyotay]

27. Freedom's on the march! Another orange, velvet revolution

And the neocon rightwing fascists in Washington cheered the people standing upr for democracy over yet another government being run by oil.

They say "leftist" like it was a bad thing. What, they couldn't go with Communist, Socialist, Terrorist or Insurgent?

[BrentWill4U]

31. By the "majority" of the people..

More like 36 percent. This guy wants power and doesn't care if he actually won or lost. If he did, he would shut the fuck up and let the legal system finish its process. He is undermining a democracy that is very young for the sake of his own power.

[Judi Lynn]

36. A stolen election is NOT letting the "legal" system finish its process.

Legal would suggest clean.

[mhatrw]

46. And Calderon? Should he have also kept his mouth shut

rather than claiming victory dozens of times?

Did all of Calderon's claims of victory undermine democracy? Why or why not?

[SensibleAmerican]

47. Absolutely

You're right on the money.

[zonkers]

48. Good point about the numbers.

[Judi Lynn]

49. You really should explain how this man has undermined the democracy.

You're the first person who has had the audacity, or absurdity to attempt that obvious slur. Your ideology cannot override the truth, no matter how you try.

[Zhade]

71. Considering there's video evidence of Calderon's cheating...

...the only person subverting democracy is Calderon.

Clearly, with your wholly incorrect assessment of the very peaceful Obrador, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

[cal04]

32. Lopez Obrador: No Faith in Election Agency

Mexico's leftist presidential candidate said Thursday he has lost faith in Mexico's main electoral agency, and doesn't want them overseeing the national recount he is demanding.

In an interview with The Associated Press, Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador said Mexico's widely respected Federal Electoral Institute, or IFE, had abandoned its autonomous role and taken become a tool of the ruling party.

``You can't take IFE people seriously,'' he said. ``They don't act according to the law.''


(snip)

If a recount is ordered, he said he would prefer to see independent observers brought in to carry out the count, instead of IFE.



http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-5978034,00.html

[RCinBrooklyn]

33. Another right wing vote box theft. I do hope they revolt in Mexico.

[BrentWill4U]

34. The only thing he will have faith in is..

Whoever says he won.

[slackmaster]

66. Welcome to DU, and I am afraid you are right

Actually it's in the hands of the TRIFE not the IFE now. TRIFE has the absolute final say.

If AMLO loses a recount, and he still disagrees and claims fraud at that point, there may be big trouble.

[Zhade]

72. No need to claim fraud, there's solid evidence of it.

NT!

[slackmaster]

74. Sure, but is it enough to have altered the outcome of the election?

Impossible to say without a total recount.

And I seriously doubt that all of the fraud went one direction.

[Zhade]

77. "Impossible to say without a total recount."

Exactly. And since there is solid evidence that proves Calderon cheated, there should be a total recount, if not a re-vote.

You can doubt all you want, but the situation as it stands is that there is evidence of Calderon's fraud, and absolutely zero evidence whatsoever that indicates Obrador cheated.

[slackmaster]

80. If your guy wins you aren't motivated to look for evidence that he cheated

Any cheating on the AMLO side would be revealed by a recount of every vote in every precinct.

[Zhade]

82. Um, can you read my mind?

He's not "my guy" - I don't get a say. Sure, I like him over the rightwing b*s* pal, of course - I think any sane liberal would.

You have absolutely nothing upon which to base the accusation that I am not interested in complete honesty in the election, by your comment that I'm not motivated to look for evidence that Abrador cheated. That's bullshit, frankly, and you're out of line to suggest that.

If he cheated - remember, THERE IS NO EVIDENCE HE DID, so it's just another baseless speculation - then let's see it, and I'll condemn him, too.

This is about honest elections, not any particular candidate, and it offends me you would think I'm more dedicated to winning than honesty. Who do you think you are to make that kind of commentary on my character?

[slackmaster]

84. Call me a hard-core cynic

I'll believe there was no cheating on behalf of AMLO only if and when an actual recount confirms it.

I don't need specific evidence to know that it's bordering on felony naive to believe that cheating in a Mexican election (or a US election) would only have gone one way, out of tens of thousands of polling places.

...it offends me you would think I'm more dedicated to winning than honesty.

I really did not mean to say you were, but thanks for making your commitment to honesty so abundantly clear.

[Zhade]

85. Fair enough.

But I still don't think I'm criminally naive on this. I'm just not going to assume there was cheating if there's no evidence.

I don't do that with rightwingers, either.

Thanks for clarifying.

[Just Me]

37. Too bad all the warnings about DIEBOLD here were ignored in 2004.

We may very well have an entirely different environment had the congress-critters listened to our warnings. They didn't listen.

[slackmaster]

38. If he loses the recount this will make him look like a demagogue forever

Risky strategy IMO.

[Zhade]

75. How can a peaceful man who was cheated to at least some degree...

...(which has been proven with things like video evidence) become a demagogue for standing up for his supporters' right to have their votes honestly and completely counted?

[slackmaster]

78. His past is not perfectly angelic, and opinions of him cover a wide range

He may seem like a more ethical man than Calderon, but he is still a Mexican politician.

To borrow a phrase from my favorite movie, "He may be a man of the people, but he is also a man if you catch my drift."

[Zhade]

81. But I'm not asking about any alleged prior "bad acts".

I'm asking how his standing up against undeniable fraud on the part of Calderon - how that act itself, independent of people's opinion - could be seen as him becoming a demagogue.

If you mean to suggest that people's opinions of Abrador, based on some image of his past (quite possibly embellished and possibly outright lied about by the rightwing of Mexico), could lead them to misinterpret his desire to stand against clear, blatant fraud as demagogic, that I could see. After all, they're only human.

But his actions here are not subverting democracy. if anything, they are trying to preserve it, his personal alleged motivations (that none of us can honestly say we know) aside.

[MrSlayer]

39. Good for him.

That's the way to do it. Demand the truth.

[Posteritatis]

40. Those of you knowledgeable about Mexico...

How dare do you think people are willing to carry this? Are we looking at another, looming Orange Revolution, another Spanish Civil War, something in between?

(Edited later: how far do you think..)

[Just Me]

42. How about a "civil rights" movement? Why are you being so extreme?

:shrug:

People standing up for their right to have the leader they want is "bad". Are you crazy?

On edit: I withdraw my personal suggestion that YOU are crazy and replace it your post is crazy.

'kay :7

[Posteritatis]

43. Put "reading comprehension" on your Christmas list, 'k?

First, a "civil rights" movement would tend towards the first of my two scenarios, although it isn't the kind of thing that results out of both parties of an election refusing to stand down anyway. Apples and oranges, when things get pushed far enough.

Second, feel free to point out where I said that anyone was doing anything "bad" here. I notice you even helpfully provided quotes around the word, so clearly I must have said or implied it somewhere, right? I'll wait.

[slackmaster]

64. I think this time there is a real danger of it being carried too far

It's not hard for me to imagine a real, honest recount of the votes in which Calderon squeaks by as the legitimate winner, followed by louder claims of fraud and vote theft, spiraling into a very dangerous civil unrest in parts of the contry that supported AMLO.

People may lose their lives as a result of this dispute.

[Zhade]

73. Right, except that there's real evidence Calderon cheated.

The election is tainted.

[slackmaster]

76. I've never said otherwise

But how much cheating was done on AMLO's behalf, and was the net effect of all the cheating and all the honest mistakes enough to have changed the outcome of the election?

The best way to find out is to count the votes. Speculating about the outcome without any additional information pointless.

[Zhade]

83. "But how much cheating was done on AMLO's behalf" - there's no evidence...

...that he did. None.

I agree with not speculating on the outcome without counting all the votes. I'm not saying that I *know* for a fact that Abrador won. That wouldn't be honest, because I can't know.

But there's no speculation that Calderon cheated. We both know he did, as you acknowledge. Did it swing the election? No idea. So let's have that full recount, and let's see how it honestly shakes out.

If the Mexican people really wanted Calderon, so be it. If not, the man who won must take office.

I think we agree there, yes?

[Adelante]

89. On this, I agree

"If the Mexican people really wanted Calderon, so be it. If not, the man who won must take office."

But AMLO is a career politician like any other, as far as I'm concerned. If he has evidence of fraud he can prove it to the TRIFE. That's their job and they should be left to do it without the theatrics in the Zocalo.

[Theyareallthesame]

52. Yeah, Alexander Haig said, "I'm in control here" too.

:rofl:

[underpants]

55. TRIFE has to validate the election and that won't be done until Semptember

Nice move to come out and declare victory. He of course is the SECOND candidate to do that but the NYT doesn't mention that does it?

[Adelante]

59. AMLO was first - Calderon soon after

Both on election night and both ever since.

[AlphaCentauri]

57. Rob Allyn and Dick Morris behind the presidential Mexican election

Rob Allyn, mercenario de Fox

Edgar González Ruiz *

Adital - Conocido como un genio del engaño colectivo, que se ufana de poder hacer creer a alguien que su perro es un gato, o cualquier otra cosa que él quiera, el publicista tejano Rob Allyn ha estado asesorando a la derecha mexicana por lo menos desde 1997 y ahora forma parte de las fuerzas plutocráticas que quieren llevar a la presidencia al candidato derechista Felipe Calderón, mediante la publicidad, la manipulación de encuestas, una de las especialidades de Allyn, e incluso el fraude electoral.

En 1983, Rob Allyn fundó Allyn & Company, con sede en Dallas, y que fue adquirida en 2002 por Omnicron, la mayor empresa de mercadotecnia en el mundo. En 2005, Allyn& Co. se ufanaba de contar entre sus clientes a 500 corporaciones, industrias, equipos deportivos y movimientos políticos, en Estados Unidos, México, Asia y el Caribe.

Según la empresa, había ayudado a ganar más de 300 victorias electorales, y entre los "estadistas" que requerían de sus servicios se contaban George Bush y Vicente Fox.

En efecto, Allyn ayudó a Bush a ganar la gubernatura de Tejas en 94, así como las dos campañas presidenciales, de 2000 y de 2004, y se le considera uno de los principales asesores de Fox en su campaña de mercadotecnia con la que ganó las elecciones del 2000.

Los dólares tejieron así una maraña donde Allyn era simultáneamente empleado de Bush y de Fox en sus respectivas campañas presidenciales, como resultado de las cuales Fox pasaría a ser a la vez cabeza del gobierno de México y criado de Bush.

http://www.adital.org.br/site/noticia.asp?lang=ES&cod=22489

google translation:

Mexico: Rob Allyn, mercenario of Fox Edgar González Ruiz * Adital - Known as a genius the collective deceit, that proud of being able to make believe to that its dog is a cat, or any other thing that it wants, the tejano publicista Rob Allyn has at least been advising to the Mexican right from 1997 and now it comprises of the plutocráticas forces that want to take to the presidency to the rightist candidate Felipe Calderón, by means of the publicity, the manipulation of surveys, one of the specialties of Allyn, and even the electoral fraud. On 1983, Rob Allyn founded Allyn & Company, with seat in Dallas, and that was acquired in 2002 by Omnicron, the greater company of marketing research in the world. In 2005, Allyn& Co. it was boasted of to count between his clients to 500 corporations, trains, sport equipment and political movements, in the United States, Mexico, Asia and the Caribbean. According to the company, it had helped to win more than 300 electoral victories, and between the “statesmen” whom they required of its services George Bush and Vicente told Fox. In effect, Allyn helped Bush to gain the presidential gubernatura of Roofing tiles (Texas) in 94, as well as the two campaigns, of 2000 and 2004, and one of the main advisers of Fox in its campaign of marketing research is considered him with which it gained the elections of the 2000. The dollars wove therefore a maze where Allyn was simultaneously employee of Bush and Fox in its respective presidential campaigns, as resulting from which Fox would simultaneously pass to be head of the government of Mexico and servant of Bush.

[Generator]

68. YEAH BABY!

Democracy by proxy syndrome. I guess I can watch it on TV since I don't have it here.

[WmDavid52]

79. Speaking of Mexico...

Is there any truth to the opinion of Aaron Russo that sooner
or later mexico, canada and the US will all merge as one
country? 
And how about the new movie of his, America: Freedom to
Fascists. It is getting some great reviews, and scares people
to death.

According to Aaron there is no law on the books that we have
to pay taxes and that the 16th amendment was never ratified by
the states?

[Adelante]

90. There is truth that there are those who want

a North American Union. I don't see it ever happening, because all three countries are so nationalistic. I wouldn't mind it personally. I think the idea has merit.

Welcome to DU :hi:

[DemsRBetterLovers]

93. What are the chances of Mexico falling into civil war?

Which party does the military support (if any)? Is this even possible? how well armed is the liberal opposition?

[Brian Stevens]

94. If this keeps up,

Mexico will go to Civil War, I guarantee it.

[slackmaster]

95. If so it will be a long, slow, painful one

There is a huge schism between the northern and southern parts of the country.

[lovuian]

98. Conservatives want a revolution they are going to get it

and they regret it too.......
Its why kings were beheaded...they were arrogant greedy fools