Irish Protestors Found Not Guilty of Vandalizing US Military Jet

[MsMagnificent]

http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?ContentBlockID=c05ca8f0-7215-4ac4-8ac1-a54393acd536

Irish Protestors Found Not Guilty Of Vandalizing US Military Jet
Wed, 26 Jul '06

Court Rules Damage Was Act Of Protest
This is a verdict guaranteed to raise eyebrows at the Pentagon and the State Department. A court in Dublin, Ireland, Tuesday found five people accused of damaging a US Navy transport jet at Shannon Airport... not guilty.

The five were arrested in February 2003, after they used axes and hammers to beat up the Boeing 737... which was being repared after a similar attack. All told... the jet suffered more than $2 million in damage.

Why did they do it? Dierdre Clancy, Karen Fallon, Nuin Dunlop, Damien Moran and Ciaron O'Reilly say they were protesting America's war in Iraq... and the use of Irish facilities to service a combatant's aircraft.

<snip>

Karen Fallon says this is a matter of standing up for Ireland's policy of remaining neutral in the Iraq conflict.

"The Irish people in the majority today approved that the Irish state is actually going against its people and breaking neutrality," she told the Associated Press.



You gotta love the Emerald Isle, where it seems every square inch is a Free Speech Zone.
Imagine that!

[w4rma]

1. 2 million dollars in damage isn't free speech. (nt)

[AlamoDemoc]

3. They were speaking of their mind...where are you Innocent killing?

[MADem]

4. Nope, we paid for their speech, with our tax dollars... NT

[w4rma]

5. You support vandalism over there and folks will get the idea to do that

here and they'll end up in jail, not helping anybody. In fact their vandalism would probably serve to hurt their overall cause. So, no tearing stuff up with an axe isn't "free speech". Writing letters, writing posters, writing leaflets, giving speeches, talking to people is free speech. Not tearing stuff up with an axe.

[MADem]

6. I don't support vandalism over there OR here

I'm pissed that they got away with that shit, frankly. And I happen to like the Irish.

But even though my personal share of that tax bill was pennies, those were pennies that could have been used in conjunction with the pennies of others to buy school lunches for poor kids, or fund a HEADSTART program somewhere.

[Greyhound]

7. You're kidding right?

:shrug:

[MADem]

8. Nope. I think encouraging them to make a two million dollar "artistic

fucking protest statement" on MY dime is just WRONG.

They can chain themselves to a fence, or march around with a sign if they want to make their point. Get a crowd together and march on the White House...but not engage in vandalism or violence.

I thought I was pretty clear--the money that will go to repair that asset might have gone to something useful. All you have to do is look and see what was cut--that money might have ended up at the VA, paying for prosthetics or prescriptions. Instead, it's being used to fix something that was childishly banged on to make a point, to no real effect.

[gratuitous]

13. Maybe we shouldn't leave our military hardware in neutral countries?

After all, if Ireland, as a country, has declared itself to be neutral ground, by parking our military hardware there, folks hostile toward us might think that Ireland was secretly supporting the United States and make Ireland a target.

The alleged damage to the plane of two million dollars would cover the Pentagon's annual budget for less than three minutes, and hardly qualifies as a direct cost to any individual taxpayer -- far more than that is wasted daily by our defense complex.

[MADem]

29. We pay for landing rights....what, when Ireland Air lands in NYC

at JFK, do they need to put a ring of burly lads around their 747?? If the Irish didn't want us there, the time to mention it was BEFORE the landing and hanger fees are paid.

Your justification of this is...gratuitous, I guess. It IS our money. Lose sight of that, and pork blossoms.

What they did was wrong. It doesn't matter if it was ten cents or ten billion dollars.

[iverglas]

43. what utter speciousness

when Ireland Air lands in NYC at JFK ...

Is Ireland Air involved in KILLING PEOPLE in a country that is not Ireland?

Is anyone likely to have a hint of a smell of a lawful excuse for chopping bits off an Ireland Air plane?

(I think you mean Aer Lingus, by the way.)

If the Irish didn't want us there ...

You seem to have mistaken the judicial process for the political process.

This was a criminal charge against five individuals, who claimed to have a lawful excuse for their actions.

The charges, and the excuse claimed, were considered by the judicial branch of the Irish state, which made a determination concerning the acts of the five individuals according to Irish law. (Or chose to disregard Irish law; that's the problem with juries, one just never knows.) "The Irish", in the sense of their legislative and executive branches of government, got no say in the matter.

The Irish government may well be responsible, vis-à-vis the US, for providing better security now that such events are foreseeable (which I would expect it is doing if US Navy transport planes are still landing there).

But it is not responsible for the acts of the five individuals. Given that this had happened before, one might think that it was negligent in failing to provide adequate security this time around. But one might also think that if the US persisted in landing its weapons of death in Ireland, knowing that this sort of thing was a possibility and not taking adequate measures to avert it, there was a biggish lump of contributory negligence involved.

[MADem]

47. Uh...just a minute, please

Are you telling me the Irish are so PROFOUNDLY DULL OF COMPREHENSION that when they take the landing fees for landing rights from the Department of Defense, FOR A FIGHTER AIRCRAFT, that they have NO IDEA that said FIGHTER AIRCRAFT is used for, dare I say, FIGHTING??????? And they have NO RESPONSIBILITY for ensuring the safety of said aircraft?

If anyone is specious, it's YOU.

What if a bunch of ORANGEMEN went over to JFK and hacked bits off yer Aer Lingus plane as a protest against the IRA killin' all their folk in years past? Or the Brits, ticked off at them rockets aimed at Maggie? There's yer warfare...! JFK would have to pay for allowing their security to be breached. Compensation would be the FIRST order of the day. And the perpetrators wouldn't get a pass because they were protesting--they'd be tried and sent to jail for vandalism and likely ordered to make restitution.

You can sit there and play it however you want, but the bottom line is, what those people did was WRONG. And if the GOVERNMENT is going to excuse them, they need to play like Jeb Bush's daddy, and pay the cost for the misbehaviour of their children, like Jeb's paw did when little Jorge tore up the lawn of his ex-girlfriend's daddy.

I've landed in Dublin two, three dozen times on mil flights. Our Iraq troops go through there regularly, as do med and log flights from Ramstein and elsewhere. The Irish government even looked the other way as rendition flights made their way through Dublin. The government cheerfully takes the money for these flights, hand over fist. Again and again, over and over. They're COMPLICIT.

What they seem to be doing is appeasing their population with horseshit judicial rulings, while playing a completely different game behind their backs.

I don't excuse this, it's bad manners at best, it's theft at worst.

[iverglas]

50. well no, I wasn't saying any such thing

Are you telling me the Irish are so PROFOUNDLY DULL OF COMPREHENSION that when they take the landing fees for landing rights from the Department of Defense, FOR A FIGHTER AIRCRAFT, that they have NO IDEA that said FIGHTER AIRCRAFT is used for, dare I say, FIGHTING??????? And they have NO RESPONSIBILITY for ensuring the safety of said aircraft?

If you read my post, why would you ask me such dumb questions?

Try it again, maybe.

You can sit there and play it however you want, but the bottom line is, what those people did was WRONG.

Oh, no no no no no.

What they did might have been illegal (I'm in no position to comment on the evidence and argument presented to the jury). But it was most very definitely profoundly RIGHT.

What if a bunch of ORANGEMEN went over to JFK and hacked bits off yer Aer Lingus plane as a protest against the IRA killin' all their folk in years past? Or the Brits, ticked off at them rockets aimed at Maggie?

I dunno. What if an orangeman were an appleman?

What they seem to be doing is appeasing their population with horseshit judicial rulings ...

What is it that you're apparently not understanding about the DIVISION OF POWERS among the three branches of government? Are you seriously suggesting that you would want the executive branch of the US GOVT deciding whether YOU are guilty of a crime????

Our Iraq troops go through there regularly, as do med and log flights from Ramstein and elsewhere. The Irish government even looked the other way as rendition flights made their way through Dublin. The government cheerfully takes the money for these flights, hand over fist. Again and again, over and over. They're COMPLICIT.

What is it you're apparently not understanding about DUE PROCESS?

Isn't that one of those big fine 'Murikan values that US Navy transport planes are supposed to be spreading around the world?

If the US thinks that the Irish government failed in its duty of care, let the US sue the Irish government. It might well win. I wouldn't know.

That has precisely FUCK ALL to do with whether the accused individuals in this case were properly acquitted of the offence with which they were charged, let alone with whether what they did was RIGHT.

[MADem]

55. They'll either sue, or they'll get a rakeoff on next year's seven million

pound payment for Shannon landing fees.

Hope those folks never take issue with the car you're driving, in the event you don't get any recourse.

[iverglas]

58. well, lemme see

I've actually been quite friendly with Project Ploughshares back when. Never had any reason to suspect they'd be chopping up my car. Never noticed my car being used to WAGE ILLEGAL WARS AND COMMIT ATROCITIES AGAINST INNOCENT POPULATIONS, either. Must be just a coincidence.

[MADem]

60. Well, stand by for a bunch of Luddites with clubs, then

You seem to think that only the protest groups that matter to you are out and about.

Some might accuse you of driving a WMD that pollutes the world.

And like I said, there is not a government on earth that is not COMPLICIT, somehow. The Irish just hide it better than many. EVERYONE is aligned, either with us, with Russia, with China, you name it.

EVERYONE has their hand out.

Everyone gets their palm greased.

[bennywhale]

76. Luddites smashed things tp try to prevent progress. are you

suggesting transporting arms to conduct an illegal war and secret prisoners is progress?????

[MADem]

85. I am suggesting that people who smash things in the name of

peace are violent, and not peaceful at all.

They want their views respected by FORCE. They're a miniature version of the thing they hate. Their might, by their logic, makes them right.

[iverglas]

91. you're spewing a dog's breakfast

You try going back to your first words and finding a coherent thread from them to this. I don't think anyone else can.

I am suggesting that people who smash things in the name of peace are violent, and not peaceful at all.

Who the hell cares? What does that have to do with your lengthy whine about your tax dollars -- or with the law of Ireland?

So, how d'you feel about that self-defence shit? Turn the other cheek on all occasions? Nobody escapes the legal consequences of assaulting or killing someone else, even where the person against whom s/he used force was engaged in a violent assault and the person who used the force honestly and reasonably believed s/he had no alternative?

Can anyone call him/herself peaceful, and yet still choose to exercise his/her right to life by defending his/her life against someone trying to take it?

Do you have a clue, yet, what the stated purpose of the acts committed here was, and what the facts and argument presented to the jury were, and what the apparent basis in law of the jury's verdict was?

Here's what I never get. Why would anyone want to represent him/herself to the world as too dunderheaded to understand things like that when they have been carefully explained? Why would anyone want to represent him/herself to the world as too disingenuous to acknowledge what has been explained by ceasing to say things that were refuted and discredited hours ago?

I never know, myself.


Their might, by their logic, makes them right.

If you call that "logic", no wonder you're having such problems. On the other hand, if you're just saying you call that logic, no wonder no one can follow anything you're saying.

Their "might", by THEIR logic, was lawfully used in order to perform an act that was necessary in order to save lives.

You got a problem with people using might to save lives? If so, you might make an excellent Quaker or something, but you would not be in step with the LAW of yer average modern society.

I've gathered that you have spent considerable time in the US military and may even have served the US government's ends in Iraq. I wonder what your "logic" would say about you, if that is the case.

I know what mine would.

[MADem]

98. You're right--who the hell cares???

Go pound on a few aircraft, if it makes you happy.

[iverglas]

101. well, you know what the only response to that is

Go murder a few Iraqis, if it makes you happy.

[bennywhale]

102. What about the American revolutionies??? or the

French revolutionaries??? what about Mandela??? What about the European resistance movements in WW2 were they just minature Nazis???? The poll tax riots in Britain???

Democratic progress is a history of democracy being progressed by non-democratic means. Its a history of protest, marches, violence and direct action. not so much in America but certainly across Europe. America had one event being the revolution (and also civil rights movement) but in europe democracy has been a longer process ofver a thousand years.

if you look at the fascinating history of democracy and freedom yopu will see it is littered with incidents similar to this one. Subservience is what the powerful desire, don't offer it up to them.

peace

[MADem]

113. Ah, so what you are saying is that we are

the Nazis and need to be crushed and ruled by a bunch of antiwar activists with axes?

You can disagree with a government's particular policy and not want that government disbanded.

Your examples all point to overthrow of the governments in question. Sorry, I like our system.

I might not care for the present leadership, but I don't want to be ruled by a bunch of Irish with axes and no clout in the world order, thank you very much. My people went through hell to get out of there, and worked hard to make lives here.

[Ken Burch]

77. Yes, the Irish GOVERNMENT is complicit

But that doesn't mean the Irish PEOPLE have no right to protest the complicity. By that logic, no US antiwar protest of any sort would be legitimate, since OUR government is more complicit than anybody.

Get a clue, wouldya?

[MADem]

84. Do take your own advice

I'm amazed at your enthusiasm for vandalism, frankly. The strategy is certainly not Ghandi-like, or MLK-like, for that matter. All it says it that "My violence is somehow purer than YOUR violence."

And like it or not, the people are responsible for their government. Unless Ireland has suddenly become a dictatorship whilst we all slept.

The clues are yours to find...

[iverglas]

92. well my goodness -- you said it

And like it or not, the people are responsible for their government. Unless Ireland has suddenly become a dictatorship whilst we all slept.

So, will you be turning yourself over to the ICC to stand trial on charges of war crimes and crimes against humanity any time soon?

[MADem]

94. What the hell are you suggesting???

You need to pull it out of that dank place and engage it.

You aren't making sense.

[iverglas]

97. listen very slowly

If the Irish people are responsible for their govt's "complicity" in the US's illegal war of atrocities because they elected their government, what in the bleeding hell does that make the USAmerican people?

You're one of them, right?

Even if you weren't over there conducting the illegal war of atrocities personally, which you don't seem to be saying one way or the other.

And any time you can come up with an explanation of how this tangent of yours has anything to do with the case at hand, do please let us know. Have you figured out the separation of powers and due process yet?

[MADem]

99. Who's defending the American people, here?

Who ARE responsible for their government.

What's your POINT????? Except to whinge on in technical fashion to justify the unjustifiable?

[Ken Burch]

75. I've just BEEN in Ireland,

and the people there are OUTRAGED over the U.S. rendition flights landing at Shannon.

Attacking an airline would not be anything like attacking a military aircraft, a piece of machinery whose sole purpose is to inflict or aid the infliction of suffering and death.

[MADem]

88. Well, now, isn't that lovely

They aren't so outraged that they haven't taken their government to task for the millions of pounds they get every year from the USA, are they?

They elected that government, it didn't appear overnight after a dream. That government is in this business of war up to its eyeballs. They'll take landing fees from anyone and everyone, and that money goes into the nation's coffers. Their outrage stops at the bottom line, apparently.

http://www.indymedia.ie.nyud.net:8090/attachments/may2006/23_04_2006_16_55_0001.jpg

[Ken Burch]

89. You are wrong, just wrong.

They ARE protesting their government's complicity in the war. They want the rendition flights to stop.

[MADem]

96. And their government is throwing them a bone with this acquittal

While at the same time, the government hops into bed with the Americans.

The US government pays MOST of Shannon's operating costs, and a goodly share of Dublin's too.

They'd not have those airports operating at world-class capacity were it not for US dough. And that is a plain fact.

But it is a fact everyone ignores, because the reality is, they're saying one thing, and doing another.

[iverglas]

100. LISTEN VERY CAREFULLY

It's here on the monitor in front of you.


And their government is throwing them a bone with this acquittal

THE GOVERNMENT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS ACQUITTAL.

Do you really not understand this? Do you REALLY not understand that in a constitutional democracy, the GOVERNMENT CANNOT tell the courts what to do in criminal trials?

WILL YOU ANSWER THIS QUESTION?

[MADem]

105. Oh...bullshit!

This is the THIRD time this case has come before the courts. THIRD TIME.

And it's coming up once again, perhaps; it ain't over:

Fianna Fáil Senator Brendan Daly today contacted the Attorney General in relation to the case. He has requested that the DPP consider taking the case to the Court of Criminal Appeal.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breaking/story.asp?j=190396198&p=y9x3969x4&n=190396958

If that's not "government telling the courts what to do" I'm rather amused.

[iverglas]

107. amused, perhaps; not too bright or not too honest? who knows ...

Fianna Fáil Senator Brendan Daly today contacted the Attorney General in relation to the case. He has requested that the DPP consider taking the case to the Court of Criminal Appeal.

If that's not "government telling the courts what to do" I'm rather amused

I can't believe that an adult who is capable of finding things on the internet doesn't understand that a government, as a PARTY to a case BEFORE THE COURTS, is ***NOT*** telling the courts what to do.

Are YOU telling the courts what to do when you are a party to a court case, and then to the appeal of that case?

If the government were telling the courts what to do, or could tell the courts what to do, WHY THE FUCK WOULD THE GOVERNMENT BE APPEALING A CASE IT LOST?

Answer, please.

Won't matter. I really don't believe that you don't understand any of this. I can't. It would be too depressing. Even more depressing than believing that you understand it perfectly well and are just refusing to be honest about it.


typo fixed

[MADem]

109. The point is, they ARE appealing it

And this will be the FOURTH trial of the case.

Seems as if they'll keep going until they get the result they like.

[Ken Burch]

74. It's Aer Lingus, not "Ireland Air"

And landing an airliner is not the same as landing military supply planes.

[MADem]

93. Oh dear me, pardon my translation

Why is landing an airliner any different than landing a logistic aircraft? That does not carry weaponry?

I got some bad news for you--most troop transport happens aboard CIVILIAN aircraft, not log flights, which are used for mail, medevac, fleet freight, the odd emergency leave, and so forth.

What's to stop these bastards from hammering away on your UNITED flight? Nothing, apparently....

[gratuitous]

103. I wasn't aware that "Air Ireland" flew war planes

I guess you learn something new every day. Although what I learned today was not so much from what you said as the way you said it.

And what the protestors did was clearly not wrong. The court said so. Perhaps you should read the verdict again.

[MADem]

106. Well, we'll see what happens when the appeal gets going

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breaking/story.asp?j=190396198&p=y9x3969x4&n=190396958

I wasn't aware that a Navy C-40, used for medevac and mail deliveries, was a "warplane" either.

[gratuitous]

111. Source, please?

I don't see any indication in any stories I've seen that this "Navy transport" was solely used for medevac and mail delivery. Do you have a source for this, and the nether region of your anatomy, while you appear adept at speaking from it, I don't consider a reliable source.

[MADem]

112. Tell ya what, try google. It's what they are USED for.

It's a BOEING 737 is all it is. No bombs, no missles, just a lousy 737 with a configuration to accept passengers and some palletized cargo. That's IT.

[iverglas]

114. so did you ever read any of the source material

posted here, about the case? You know ... the evidence, the arguments, the issues ...

Anyhow, you probably missed this from the article at Counterpunch.

The trial heard ... from ex-Royal Air Force logistics expert Geoffrey Oxley that he couldn't rule out the possibility of damage to a transport plane having a knock-on effect that could result in lives saved in Iraq.

How obvious is it that if a plane is transporting stuff FOR THE MILITARY, it is being used to contribute to whatever it is that THE MILITARY happens to be getting up to?

If the US military used stretch limousines to transport its troops to where they needed to be in order to kill kids, would the stretch limousines not be "military"? If it used Carnival Cruise line ships to get its bombs to Iraq, would they not be "military"?

I don't know whether "knock-on effect" is an idiom you're familiar with. It means kinda like trickle-down. If a big innocent cargo plane isn't able to get to Iraq with the hot dogs for the troops to eat, the troops might not be able to go out killing kids that day.

It's all rather obvious.

[MADem]

117. No it isn't obvious at all. You drag out another C-40 or you rent

cargo space on a commercial 737. All they did was cost the US taxpayers money, and require a few pilots and aircrew to do a turnaround to Frankfurt that they weren't anticipating. They also pissed off our government, and resulted in the airport where they pulled their stunt being in real danger of closing.

If that airport closes, the jobs there will be gone, as will many of the jobs at the US subsidiary companies in the region (no airport, no shipping channel). It could be a real problem for the west of Ireland. Those businesses have changed the economy there drastically, and they could find themselves back in rural hell. Then they'll be needing quotas for Canada, Australia and the US once more.

And that will be a helluva knock-on effect. They can turn the airport into Axe Plane Park and go for picnics there, I suppose.

[iverglas]

118. ah, war; the best economic boost ya can have

I'm afraid that my tummy has had just about its quota today. Much more yelping and whinging about the great downtrodden USAmerican taxpayer having to pay a few cents because a few people did what a few million more people ought to be doing to stop the people on the USAmerican taxpayers' payroll from KILLING PEOPLE, all the while the great downtrodden USAmerican taxpayer is spending dog knows how many of its cents every day TO KILL PEOPLE, and I guess I'll just puke.

It's always fun to meet someone whose moral compass consists of "what's it gonna cost the USAmerican taxpayer?", though.

You might want to let the poor Irish taxpayers fight their own battles; from what one can tell at this distance, they seem pretty satisfied with how they're being fought at the moment, them apparently having a different yardstick against which to measure things like contributing to PEOPLE GETTING KILLED.

[MADem]

124. You aver then, that two wrongs somehow make a right?

I am not sure where you are going there with your moral compass arguments.

I can be against the war and be against people vandalizing property. It's as easy as walking and chewing gum. It's not the protesting that is problematic, that's wonderful, in fact...it's the vandalism, not even taking into account the unnecessary harassment of troops. Add to that the vindictive nature of the Monkey, and western Ireland pays, for something that didn't make a damn bit of real difference in support of Mary Kelly's cause:

http://www.finfacts.com/irelandbusinessnews/publish/article_10005330.shtml

A reduction in US investment into Ireland would have a disproportionately negative impact on the Irish economy, a study carried out by the Institute for International Integration Studies (IIS), based in Trinity College Dublin, shows....The study examines both geographical and sectoral patterns of trade in goods and services, to identify Ireland's main trading partners and what Ireland trades. It presents a picture of Ireland's international financial linkages to the rest of the world through foreign direct investment, portfolio investment, and other investment. It shows the extent to which foreign-owned firms dominate production and trade in many manufacturing sectors and their increasing importance in several service sectors. Finally, it looks briefly at the pattern of recent immigration into Ireland.

...The study says that a reduction in the level of US investment in Ireland could be caused by a variety of factors, including changes in global tax arrangements or a downturn in the US economy. The study, which explores the extent to which globalisation has impacted on the Irish economy, also concludes that it is extremely vulnerable to a global slowdown in either the high-tech or financial services sectors, since such a large proportion of our trading activity is concentrated in these sectors.

Such a slowdown would also reduce tax revenues, both from the foreign-owned firms and from those directly employed in them and associated businesses.....

If anyone needs their moral compass adjusted, it's you.

[Name removed]

115. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MADem]

122. How very mature of you

According to Lt. Cmdr. Bryan Wright, VR-58 public affairs officer, the new aircraft will enable the squadron to fly one of three different configurations. They will be able to fly the all-passenger rig, which will carry 121 passengers, compared to 90 passengers for the C-9B, the all cargo rig, which can carry 41,000 pounds, compared to 25,000 pounds for the C-9B, and the combination rig, which can carry 3 pallets of cargo and 70 passengers, compared to three pallets and 45 passengers for the C-9B.
http://www.news.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=3343

But indeed, I may have erred. They may not have planned on a stop in Frankfurt (though the VR 59 log flight, which this was, usually does) was on its way to NAVSTA Sigonella, per this report. http://www.strategypage.com/messageboards/messages/84-28.asp When they make the loop they often stop at Naples one way, Frankfurt the other.

[Greyhound]

31. How could we maintain the amerikan empire if we did that?

I used to have a map with the locations and sizes of permanent amerikan military bases around the world, unfortunately it doesn't seem to be available anymore (I wonder why that would be?). It showed quite clearly that we are a global empire that can, and regularly does, exert significant violence any place on the planet.

We have been the largest slave-master on earth for a very long time.

[Greyhound]

28. Sorry I wasn't clear. The joke is the supposition that, had they not

damaged that plane, those funds would be used for the causes that you suggest, or anything other than to line their pockets.

[MADem]

30. Well, I'm thinking of the cuts, post-budget, to the VA and other entities

I'm certainly not supposing that they would add to these programs, but every time there's a shortfall, some Peter must be robbed to pay that Paul. And had this not happened, perhaps one of those Peters may have escaped unscathed.

[Greyhound]

33. Right, I'm sure that the cabal is screwing the vets because they just

don't have the money. :eyes:

C'mon, where have you been for the last five years?

[MADem]

36. What the hell are you saying?

That they are screwing the vets for SOME OTHER REASON? Now that's some reaching.

Uh, I'm ONE of those vets...that's where I have "been" for the last five years. I pay attention to the budget process, I watch the HASC and SASC hearings, because all politics, you see, is local.

[Greyhound]

38. I'm saying that they are screwing the vets, as well as everybody

else, because they can. They are following the same script they have followed for well over 100 years in this country.

1. Run up massive debt to kill the economy

2. Use the, now damaged, economy to instill fear and threaten us with loss of income, in order to eliminate, reduce, or render ineffective, any socially beneficial programs that were initiated during their time of reduced influence. (why else do you think the Re:puke: party has had such a hard-on for killing SS, Medicare, Medicaid, Veterans benefits, pensions, etc.)

3. use the newly created "desperate times to instill fear, fear, and more fear.

If you want see it in more detail, check out pretty much anything Noam Chomsky has written, he lays it all out and it is all well documented (he is a MIT professor after all).

I want to be clear that I, along with millions of others, am on your side. It is unforgivable what the politiwhores of both parties have done and continue to do to those we owe the most to.

[SOS]

136. The US spends $2 million

on the Iraq fiasco every 13 minutes.
Talk about robbing Peter!

[iverglas]

46. "the money that will go to repair that asset might have gone ...

to something useful. ... Instead, it's being
used to fix something that was childishly
banged on ... to make a point, to no real effect."

Huh.


Woman and her daughter in front of a bombed
telephone exchange in Baghdad
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2896845.stm


Just a few kilometers into Iraq we see a burned bus
on the side of the highway. This was the bus
carrying Syrian workers returning from Iraq at
the end of March. Coalition forces bombed it,
killing five people and injuring ten. We saw
the destoryed bridge just before we slowed down
to avoid the crater left in the road from the
bombing of the bus.
http://journalism.berkeley.edu/projects/baghdad/archives/000976.html

http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,256645,00.jpg
The smoking ruins of a Baghdad restaurant bombed
by US forces in a raid intended to kill Saddam Hussein.
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,grossbild-256645-394874,00.html


A farm in al-Janabiin after a U.S. 'precision' strike.


That same day, U.S. bombs fell into the industrial
neighborhood of al-Zafaraiya in southern Baghdad,
killing another six civilians.


Dwellings next to the Information Ministry in Baghdad.


a U.S. 'precision' bomb hits the International
Trade Fair building in Baghdad, and blast power
destroys a maternity hospital across the street.
http://www.cursor.org/stories/iraq.html

Oh, and let's not forget:


Kabul after 20 years of Devastation by
U.S.-Backed Counterrevolutionaries.


Baghdad residential district bombed by U.S.
during Persian Gulf War.
http://www.internationalist.org/left&war0901.html


And of course that's just the stuff.

But it might be wise to think how little sympathy
a lot of people are going to have for USAmericans
whining about somebody smashing up one of the tools
they use for smashing up so much of other people's stuff,
all the same.


something that was childishly banged on
to make a point, to no real effect.

Good one. Almost applies here, doesn't it?

Except that the childish banging that the US
is engaged in is having the very real effect of
destroying the entire physical infrastructure of
a society.

[MADem]

49. Oh, PLEASE...

Go on then, with your Pollyanna nonsense.

Tell ya what...we'll beat all our planes into plowshares. That will make you happy...no weapons atall!!! Joy in the MORNING!!!

Of course, our OPPONENTS won't follow your stupid idea. And then where will you be?

I hope ya don't mind kissing your Guiness goodbye. And all the women will be covered in bedsheets, and the men not permitted to shave. Your ass WILL pray five times a day, in the street, and you'll be the very least of the brethren, because you'd be an unwilling convert.

That's if the Chinese don't have their way with you first.

[iverglas]

51. this is quite interesting

I present you with images of the massive, horrific damage done to the physical infrastructure of Iraqi society by the US invasion, and you say:

Tell ya what...we'll beat all our planes into plowshares. ... Of course, our OPPONENTS won't follow your stupid idea.

I know what I was talking about, but I'm not at all sure what you're talking about.

I certainly never suggested that you or anyone else beat your planes into ploughshares.

I did suggest that your government stop roaming around the world KILLING PEOPLE (FOR PROFIT).

Any chance we're on the same page on that?

[MADem]

56. Your government needs to stop enabling the effort, to the tune

of millions and millions in their coffers every year.

As I have said elsewhere, you need to clean your own house before you criticize the housekeeping of others.

[iverglas]

57. well I just give up

You are apparently accusing me of being Irish.

That's just weird.

[MADem]

59. Well, if you aren't then don't argue from their end of it

The point remains, they are every bit as complicit as the Americans.

There's no innocents in all this. Everyone has an agenda. And everyone wants to win.

[iverglas]

64. sir yes sir

Jesus fucking christ, chum.

Have you managed to figure out the division of powers and due process yet?

[Ken Burch]

79. Please tell me you meant that post as satire.

"I hope ya don't mind kissing your Guiness goodbye"?

I think we can assume that Al Qaida never intended to storm the Dail.

[MADem]

104. No, not satire at all

Who knows what AQ intends??

They seem to like the Emerald Isle, so don't be so smugly certain of permanent safety:

http://www.freedominst.org/2005/07/detain-al-qaeda-operatives_112228504962071966.html
Jim Cusack’s report in the Sunday Independent on July 17 describes how Al Qaeda have reconnoitered at least one target in Ireland and concern by overseas security agencies that the threat from Irish based operatives is being seriously underestimated by the Irish Government. There are also indications in the article of dangerous complacency at senior levels in the Gardai.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0708/ahernb.html
The Taoiseach has said that gardaí are closely monitoring a number of individuals in Ireland suspected of being al-Qaeda sympathisers.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/07/19/terror.indictment.ap/
Both are accused of running several Web sites including Azzam.com, which investigators say was used to recruit members for the al Qaeda network, Afghanistan's ousted Taliban regime and Chechen rebels.

Prosecutors allege that from 1998 until at least 2002, Ahsan and Ahmad operated Web sites encouraging people to donate money or equipment. The sites allegedly operated in Connecticut, Nevada, Britain, Ireland and Malaysia.

And, this is probably the reason WHY the Government of Ireland plays the peacenik game to their constituents, yet allies and enriches themselves with the warmongers on the sly.

Best for last:

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=184&si=1658806&issue_id=14403

STATE-backed Irish technology firm Acra Control has won the contract to develop a key part of the top secret US Air Force unmanned stealth attack plane, now being tested by Northrop Grumman.

Acra Control was recently selected to provide flight test instrumentation for the combat aircraft, according to one of its Israeli partners. The project is under the control of the US Department of Defence.

The Predator unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV), is widely used by US military forces.

In 2002, a missile fired by a US Predator drone in Yemen killed six suspected al-Qaeda terrorists in their car. Over the years, Enterprise Ireland has provided a variety of grants to the Stillorgan firm, with its latest annual report revealing that the State has funded Acra Controls to the tune of €735,000 - largely for the creation of jobs at the defence company.

[1monster]

22. You really believe that any of that $2 million would have been spent on

school lunches, Headstart, or ANYTHING benefiting our kids?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Can I have some of whatever you're drinking?

on edit: I don't mean to be demeaning, but consider who is spending those tax dollars. None of it would go toward anything really useful or helpful to the people of this nation, especially not to the children. They don't vote.

[MADem]

32. See #30. NT

[iverglas]

41. If I were you

I'd be spending my time complaining about a whole lot of other things my tax dollars are being spent on, rather than bitching about this one.

Yeah, the protestors could have written some letters to the editor. But the violation of Ireland's neutrality that they were protesting would have gone on -- AND THE UNITED STATES WOULD HAVE GONE ON KILLING PEOPLE.

That's the bit that I'd be a bit peeved about if I were a USAmerican. That my government was KILLING PEOPLE. With my tax dollars.

The US government may have a little less money to spend on the social programs it wouldn't have spent them on anyway, and a little less money to spend on KILLING PEOPLE too.

And most of all, it may think twice before landing its weapons of mass destruction in Ireland. And that may make it just a tiny bit more difficult for it to KILL PEOPLE.

And just imagine if other people started chopping away at US Navy transport jets with their little axes in a few other countries. Maybe the US would find it even more difficult to KILL PEOPLE.

And amazingly, I happen to think that this would be a GOOD thing. And I don't really give a crap how much money it costs the US government if it has to keep repairing its weapons of death.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[iverglas]

63. goodness me, you are ... er ... tired and emotional ... as we say here

in Canada. Would a cup of tea help at all?

Your government IS killing people...they're involved as well; they're the servants of this effort.

MY government is guilty of quite a few things, trust me. Just not what you're accusing it of here.

I'm not even of Irish ancestry. Well, that may not be quite correct. There's a couple of my families I can't trace back beyond places like Cornwall and Devon, and with names like Francis and Hill, they may well be. But one of my English grandfathers was in the Black and Tans / Royal Ulster Constabulary back in the early 20s -- I have never known (and will never know) the whys and wherefores of that choice, I just know that it doesn't exactly qualify me for Irishness.

And when your government cringes, says you, of course, are RIGHT, and starts missing those payments, they'll up your taxes, so enjoy.

Well, let's pretend you're actually talking to me, and the US were actually ... well, d'you know, I don't know whether the US refuels its weapons of mass destruction at Gander, Newfoundland, on the way to killing people or not. This hadn't occurred to me before. I'm not finding a definitive answer on a quick google. I'm going to look a little more closely.

If it does, I'm probably not going to run off and start smashing them up. That's wrong of me, I know. Well, not actually, if there is possibly a more effective way of bringing the problem to public attention and getting something done about it. I have contacts in Parliament. I could find out what they're doing about it and what more can be done.

Anyhow, if this is happening, and if Project Ploughshares wants to go smash up a few US Navy transport planes in Newfoundland, I'll donate to the defence fund.

And I would most definitely not whine about how I might have to pay a few more dollars in taxes because my government was no longer collecting the fucking BLOOD MONEY that it was receiving from the murdering criminal US government. I would feel guilty if that was all I was doing to stop your criminal government from murdering people.

Happy?

And wanting to retract any of that nastiness at all? Even if I were Irish, I wouldn't necessarily be a legitimate target of such venom. We out here in the outer darkness are supposed to love you 'Murikans and hate your gummint, aren't we? Any chance you might feel like doing a little of that do unto others stuff?

We must still be perfectly clear, though. I don't give a single bit of a crap about the cost to US taxpayers of damage done in the cause of stopping the government they elected from KILLING PEOPLE FOR PROFIT. I applaud it.

[iverglas]

69. update

I've googled around and found nothing to suggest that US war planes are refuelled at Gender, Newfoundland. If this had ever been discussed in Parliament, it would have shown up on this search:

site:www.parl.gc.ca gander iraq -falls refuel

(-falls because otherwise you get every time the member for Gander-Grand Falls has said anything about Iraq)

Uh oh. I really did think I'd heard summat of it, and the rest I did already know.

http://www.perc.ca/PEN/2003-04/sanders.html

Isn't it amazing how Canada can contribute so much to this war without even being involved?

Here are a few examples of Canada's role in this unsanctioned war.

Some arguments are debatable. *If* Canada's presence in Afghanistan is justified, the fact that the US doesn't have to have troops there and can put them in Iraq is not an argument for Canada not being in Afghanistan.

US aircraft carrying many thousands of troops to Iraq are being allowed to stop in St. John's and Stephenville, Newfoundland for refueling and crew changes. "In recent weeks, as the US has used Newfoundland as a refueling stop for military flights en route to the Middle East, we've been getting roughly two or three US flights a day, with probably 1,000 troops coming through each day," said Gary Vey, CEO of the Gander Airport Authority (Ottawa Citizen, March 22).

This is dated 2003; I will have to look farther to verify current status.

Nonetheless, as I said -- addressing your actual point -- if somebody wants to chop away at any planes getting refuelled here, they're welcome by me, and I'll pay those taxes, and sleep better at night.

And hey -- Liberals then, Conservatives now ... I didn't vote for either of 'em, and I spit on both their houses.

[Ken Burch]

80. There is a HUGE antiwar movement in Ireland

And they ARE fighting to stop the rendition flights in and out of Shannon. Bertie Ahern has never been given a pass on this issue. You truly speak in ignorance on the Irish situation, my friend.

[High Plains]

119. Of course, those pennies wouldn't actualy be used to help poor

kids.

[Judi Lynn]

130. If very poor American school children ever DO get a school lunch again

it will have to be something freakish, like CARE packages sent from another country, since our right-wing whores want to pocket every loose dime themselves, and insist on doing it at the overwhelming expense of the helpless.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

34. I support civil disobedience over there.

I support it over here too.

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[iverglas]

65. Funny, some of us have no problem ...

post you address and invite some civil disobediance on your home, car.

... distinguishing between ourselves and the government of a huge wealthy powerful nation ... and between our cars and US Navy transport planes.

Really.

If you can't, I'm sure someone could help.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

68. You'd like that, wouldn't you?

See, I'd rather have people destroy inanimate objects, than inanimate objects destroy people.

I'll see your full of shit and raise you a bag of chips.

[Henny Penny]

9. Maybe you should keep your planes at home....?

it'd be safer (for everyone).

[Mandate My Ass]

12. Oh snap!

:rofl:

[NavyDavy]

14. I totally agree with you on that part.....more people around the

world should do that to US assets maybe we would finally realize that just because the Governments of said countrys support B**h the people don't

[vincent_vega_lives]

23. I agree

I think we should pull all our military assets out of foreign countries, include Iraq and focus on just local security.

[jonnyblitz]

25. !!

:thumbsup:

[MADem]

35. Maybe my dear Irish relatives shouldn't accept the bloody

landing fees and hangar fees if they don't want us on their bloody tarmac, eh??? How tough is that to do?

What, is it common hospitality to rent someone a room, take their cash, and then club them to death in their bed while they sleep?

Airports aren't free. Ya pay to play--everything from the landing fees, the gate fees, the hangar fees, and then some. You take the MONEY, you assume responsibility.

My dear Irish relatives fell down on the job.

[bennywhale]

78. The American Revolution involved civil disobedience, violence

and dare i say it damage to property. I'm glad people like you weren't around then.

Its a fact my friend that often the due processes like writing letters and political representatives often sometimes don't work. When, as you mention in another post, everyone is in pay and complicit, where is democracy.

Sometimes people have to use direct action and take things into their own hands. It has always been thus.

[MADem]

126. Well, are you in the habit of axing planes??

Do put up photos of your exploits, then.

I am NOT trying to overthrow MY government. I may not like the asshole in charge, but I've no desire to "use direct action" unless that's a goal, and it isn't.

So, your absurd reference to the American Revolution doesn't cut it; unless you're interested in revolution. I'm not.

I like the system of government we have. We could do with a change in leadership, but not in our system.

People like me, military people who thought before we acted rashly, WERE around back then. And people like me are the reason we have a nation with a halfway decent system of governance.

[Bridget Burke]

90. Is this a private fight, or can anybody join in?

Who was clubbed to death while they slept?

[iverglas]

95. I wonder

Airports aren't free. Ya pay to play--everything from the landing fees, the gate fees, the hangar fees, and then some. You take the MONEY, you assume responsibility.

I'll bet you pay to park a car from time to time. Get something for your money? Does every penny you pay go into the coffers of the parking authority, or does a large chunk of it maybe cover expenses?

Does your local parking authority, or private parking operator, guarantee the safety and welfare of your car when it's there?

Let me tell you the answer. It doesn't. If somebody comes along and slashes your tires, then unless you can prove some very unusual set of circumstances that would make the parking people the bailee of your car -- someone who has accepted responsibility for it somehow -- you'll be out of pocket and up the creek.

Airports aren't free BECAUSE NO SERVICE IS FREE, for the love of all the dogs. The US govt really isn't handing over money for old rope, you know.

[MADem]

116. Are "your" parking lots owned by the federal government??? You are wrong

There's no charge to park in one of those Federal Office Building parking lots...and you can only use those with a pass. Private parking lots are not OWNED by the government, and your argument is unsupportable and a horrible example for that reason, and more.

Because if your car WAS damaged in a government parking lot, guess what?? You can file a CLAIM against the government!!! And they'll PAY!!!! A good friend of mine got a much nicer car after a light pole fell on his car in the Pentagon north lot.

Shannon Airport, and Dublin as well, are owned by the IRISH government. They've made a load of money over the years, from governments ranging from the former USSR (an important cash cow) to the USA. Here's your source for that info: http://www.shannonairport.com/company/history.html

DHS does pax screening there: http://www.shannonairport.com/facilities/usdeptofhomelandsecurity.html They probably won't be doing that for too many years longer, though, with the way that airport's future is looking, thanks to these axe-wielders.

The US ambassador pointed out http://dublin.usembassy.gov/ireland/washfile2.html how much dough the US brings in during a speech in Galway: And, last but not least, we cannot ignore the great benefit to the regional economy of the large number of US forces transiting Shannon Airport under UN mandate to support the democratically elected governments in Iraq and Afghanistan. Sadly, the income that the Shannon region has earned from this traffic and the jobs it has created and sustained are now in jeopardy as these private carriers decide to use other airports in Europe that offer better arrangements and fewer hassles...Throughout the Republic of Ireland, U.S. investment now stands at over 73 billion dollars. About 600 U.S. companies have created over 100,000 jobs in Ireland thanks to this investment and some of the biggest players are right here in the Galway area. Franchises are increasingly appearing across Ireland as small businesses are created by entrepreneurs who see franchise opportunities as the way to open shop with the support of a larger corporate structure behind them. All of this is due in to a favorable corporate tax environment in Ireland, an educated and English-speaking workforce, and local and national policies that encourage the development of business.

How long this will be sustained, though, is a cause for concern. Anti-American speech and actions seem to be on the upswing here and it is driven largely by the anti-war and left-leaning activists who oppose not only U.S. foreign policy, but also capitalism and the market economy. This should be a cause not only for my country, but for the business community in general as it can surely threaten to undermine the close relationship between our two countries that made the Celtic economic miracle possible.

For example, I know your invitation to me was criticized by some elements of Galway and your own County Council has had motions put before it several times relating to Shannon Airport, the war in Iraq, and other foreign policy issues that have little or nothing to do with the good people of this city. Just last week, there was an incident where a private person tried to arrest several U.S. service members for war crimes in Iraq and other similarly dramatic attempts at protest have been done by people in this area over the years here from attacking a U.S. plane at Shannon to harassing U.S. military personnel staying overnight in area hotels....


And were it not for US ramp fees, they'd be closed by now. The only reason they did not operate at a loss was because of US use of the facility. That does not even factor in the value added is the employment it brings to the region. All those jobs, all that generated income...in a part of the country where jobs don't grow on trees, and if the airport goes under, the jobs that are there will leave. They'll probably migrate to countries that aren't quite so inclined to do things like vandalize aircraft when they disagree with a nation's policies.

At the end of the day, though, they'll be free of US interference at Shannon, as more and more carriers are just skipping them, and that WILL get worse as the years go by--if the airport closes as a result of this (they've already cut a bunch of jobs) they can name the rotted hulk that remains of what was a nice, well run airport after those axe-wielders, perhaps: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601085&sid=aDc0ZN.p9uz8&refer=europe

The debt-laden airport is looking for new revenue sources after World Air Holdings Inc., the largest charter operator for the U.S. military, started moving troops to and from Iraq through Leipzig, Germany, rather than Shannon on July 1. ...The soldiers threw a financial lifeline to Shannon. Military landing fees at Shannon, which had a profit of 2.5 million euros last year, generated revenue of 9 million euros.

...Starting in November, just one in three flights will have to land there, and carriers will be free to skip over the airport entirely within two years. Trans-Atlantic passengers at Shannon may drop 30 percent to 500,000, according to a March report by the Irish Business & Employers Confederation. ...

I wonder if the future unemployed of Galway will thank those folks for their contribution to their state of being?

[iverglas]

121. what on earth?

A whole lot of the parking in my municipality is owned by the municipal corporation, actually: "government". Why you'd think that matters to my point, I don't know. You don't seem to have made even the most minimal effort to grasp it.

(You really don't see the difference between a light pole owned by the parking operator falling on a car and another driver taking a chunk out of your side panel, do you? Try, though. Is a demonstrator with an axe more like a light pole, or another driver?)

The US govt pays the Irish govt for the use of its airport services. The Irish govt provides the airport services, presumably at a cost somewhat lower than the fee charged. Hmm, just like the parking operator provides me with services for a fee, and makes a profit after expenses. You got something against capitalism?

The Irish government really, simply, truly is not the GUARANTOR of the safety of all and everything that arrives at its airport. IF the US govt can prove that the Irish govt breached some duty of care that it owed the US govt in respect of the security of the US govt's planes at the airport, then the US govt is welcome, as I said, to sue the Irish govt. People do that sort of thing all the time.

But if I pay a parking operator to leave my car on its premises, the parking operator does NOT have a duty to protect my car from all comers. Not unless it has expressly assumed that duty.

I don't know what all this noise is about free parking in govt buildings. We parked in the Ronald Reagan building in DC three years ago. I don't recall it being free, but then I wasn't driving. I was one of the passengers who'd decided to leave our stuff back at the house, and thus had no ID to present so that we could be alowed to enter the parking. I kinda tried to explain that, being Canadian, it really hadn't occurred to us that we might need ID in order to park a car. What saved us was our escort's CIA employee card, I think.

Anyhow, the parking operator makes a lot of money from me, too. That simply doesn't mean that it is responsible for what happens to my car while on its lot. Really. But yuppers: if I'm dissatisfied with the parking operator's services, for whatever reason, I can take my business elsewhere. Ditto the USofA and Irish airports. I certainly would never say otherwise.

It's a funny old argument you make though, I must say. Guess you're not one of those "give me liberty or give me death", "those who would trade an important liberty for" a mess of pottage or whatever it was, kinda guys, eh?

You appear to be saying that accused persons in the Republic of Ireland should be DENIED DUE PROCESS because if they succeed in making their case before a court of competent jurisdiction, it'll cost the gummint some money. I don't know how that sort of thing flies south of the border, but we'd look real askance at it up here.

I'd kinda hope, in an idealistic kinda way, that the US itself would look at the situation and say: good show; the rule of law prevailed. Now let's get back to business. Of course, I'd hope that the business in question was not MOVING SHIT AROUND THE PLANET IN ORDER TO BE ABLE TO KILL PEOPLE MORE EFFICIENTLY. But I'm just a cock-eyed optimist.

So if you really want to heat up the US economy, I guess invading Iran would be a good move?


Can I just ask:

And, last but not least, we cannot ignore the great benefit to the regional economy of the large number of US forces transiting Shannon Airport under UN mandate to support the democratically elected governments in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Does that airport handle interplanetary traffic too? Your ambassador seems to have recently beamed down from quite a different galaxy.

But hey -- ask me whether I'm surprised to see someone in the US saying it's just excellent for the US to use its relative economic power (being big is just so equivalent to being better, isn't it?) to extort what it wants out of smaller and therefore more vulnerable societies/economies. I'll save you the trouble; your question would be rhetorical.

[MADem]

125. Ok, Mister Ramble On and Say Nothing

There are no "parking lot operators" at the Pentagon. It's FEDERAL PROPERTY. Patrolled by FEDERAL PENTAGON POLICE. Duh! And since parking spots are assigned, and the entire place surveilled by cameras, they'd know who hit your car...but if they didn't...THEY'D PAY!!! If something happens to your shit on federal property, you file a claim against the government. And they pay.

And if you paid to park in DC, you were in a private garage, my friend. Not a FOB Parking facility.

Apparently this went over your head: The US government has been SUBSIDIZING Shannon, NOT getting a discount. The money is being cut off over the next couple of years. They're doing discount business to try to keep things going, but they've already laid off twenty percent of their staff. They're gonna have to scramble to stay open. If Shannon goes away, MICROSOFT goes away, DELL goes away, INTEL, AMD, thousands and thousands of jobs....and the Irish people aren't uniformly enthused about that prospect. They've gotten used to nice jobs.

Like I said. I can be against war and against vandalism.

You apparently, can't manage that. Bullying, pushing, shoving and destroying are quicker, but they don't pay off in the long run.

[Ken Burch]

73. They were damaging implements of death

It was as legitimate as the Berrigans denting missile cones and pouring blood on draft records.

[MADem]

110. A supply plane, enroute to Frankfurt, with MAIL, that is often configured

as a medevac platform???

That's an instrument of death? OK....

[Tesha]

83. Free speech is whatever a court rules it to be.

And all sorts of people worldwide including some who are judges
and some who sit on juries, have decided we're a rogue nation.

Tesha

[LiberalFighter]

128. 2 million damage? Halliburton must have done the billing

[Vexatious Ape]

2. Great story

I wonder what the reaction is at the State Dept.

[Vidar]

10. Good for them.

[Vidar]

11. Flame all you like. Our government would just use the wasted

tax dollars to bu more white phosphorous or some other depravity anyway.

[lonestarnot]

15. ewwww love those fight'n Irish!

[Igel]

16. Well, it's good to see the Irish have such a firm grip on

reality.

"I like what they did, so I'll state as fact that they didn't do it. Now about that 'scientific breakthrough' you're claiming over there ... nope, don't want to believe it, so it's not true. The facts simply don't bear out that report. I'm in charge of deciding what are facts ... reports, observations, measurements ... not in *my* reality."

Falwell ... must be envious.

[MasonJar]

17. I think that the whole scenario makes a statement, which speaks

what the people of this world think about our hegemony. The plane should not have been in the neutral country...period. It is worth the 2 million to spread the attitude that our war is not right across the world of the internet, etc.

[chieftain]

18. This is a text book example of Jury Nullification.

The good people who were the triers of fact decided that even though all the elements of a crime were proven, the decision was in their hands and they were not going to send these people to jail.
As to the waste of taxpayers money, it may be time for us to emulate the tax resisters of the Vietnam Era, and stop feeding the war machine that this gang of thugs has unleashed on certain parts of the world. I have not worked up the requisite courage to risk prison, but absent a quick withdrawl of US forces from Iraq, it may be the course many of us have to take.

[vincent_vega_lives]

24. Yep, A clear "in your face" from the Irish people to the US. (n/t)

[iverglas]

48. not necessarily jury nullification

The accused mounted a very legitimate defence: the lawful excuse of necessity:

http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=20686

The five admitted in the court that they had forced their way into the hangar and had attacked the plane, but said their actions were legally excusable because they were trying to protect lives and property in Iraq, which the U.S. invaded the following month. After attacking the nose cone and windows of the plane with hammers and paint, the five prayed. They offered no resistance when arrested.

The jury may have very properly found that their actions were excused because their reasons for them fell within the necessity excuse.

One never knows with juries. (I assume that Irish juries, as in most of the common law world, are prohibited from discussing their deliberations outside the jury room.)

[Spider Jerusalem]

53. That's a painfully stupid defence.

Taking hammers and axes to a Boeing 737 is going to achieve absolutely nil in the way of 'protecting lives and property in Iraq'. This isn't a fighter plane or a bomber we're talking about. This was nothing but wilful vandalism.

[iverglas]

66. do feel free to learn about what you choose to talk about

The article linked at post 37 (excerpted in post 52) right in this thread should be of some assistance.

The article pretty much refutes your assertions without breaking a sweat.

[MsMagnificent]

70. Those planes used in Rendition

Enough said.

[MADem]

62. American jurors are free to speak once the trial is over, and they do

Some go on talk shows, some write books.

There is no prohibition in place after a trial is finished; only DURING.

[iverglas]

67. the funny thing is ...

American jurors are free to speak once the trial is over

... I know that.

That would be why I pointed out, for the benefit of any USAmericans in the vicinity who are not familiar with other countries' legal systems, that in most of the common law world it is not the case, and so probably no one should be expecting to hear the jury's rationale for its decision.

[Nihil]

72. Thank you

I have appreciated your patience in explaining the facts of this
matter to those overly emotional posters who simply don't understand
the world beyond their own borders.

:toast:

[iverglas]

82. ta ;)

It may *look* like impatience at times, but you're right -- it takes huge patience to even bother being impatient!

And it's just plain downright good honest fun to find things out that ya don't know about, for me in this case and a myriad of others, so it's not all sackcloth and ashes. ;)

[Realityhack]

134. Right over your head...

zing....

I guess I must have missed the part where he mad that claim.

[Realityhack]

133. Excelent post.

Best I have read so far on this thread.

Many people are not aware of these laws or the diffrences between common law systems and the US system.

Without even knowing that an excuse of necesity was put up I find peoples arguments against the verdict premature. I will not say I agree or disagree with it. But I would like to know a bit more about the legal structure, caselaw (or whatever), and the case presented before I make a judgement.

Even when supriseing cases come up in the US many people here in the US react strictly to headlines and ignore any actual facts, laws, etc presented in the court.

[unda cova brutha]

19. they were sending * a strong message on how they dont like his war

it is costly but it got their point across.

[RangerSmith]

71. Yet

the war hadn't even started yet.

[MrPrax]

20. A feel-good story finally!

It's good to see the Courts admonish politicians over stated national policy once in awhile...maybe the trend will catch on and other courts and legislatures might have a look at their laws and the actions of their elites.

[AngryAmish]

21. The irish cheered on the Nazis in WWII

Thatnks for breaking our stuff, jerks.

[Bridget Burke]

26. If Ireland had not remained neutral in WWII....

The Nazis would have conquered them easily & the UK would have been surrounded. The Irish Army was fairly weak & their Navy & Air Force non-existent. Allied airmen & sailors who ended up in Ireland were repatriated; Germans were interned until the end of the war. When Belfast was bombed, Dublin sent fire engines North.

It's rumored that Churchill offered the North to De Valera if he'd let the Brits control Irish ports. But De Valera didn't bite--perhaps because of Churchill's role in the Anglo-Irish peace process. (Or because Churchill's syphilitic Dad invented the slogan: "Ulster will fight & Ulster will be right!")

I do admit that De Valera went a bit too far when he sent condolences to the German ambassador on the occasion of Hitler's death.



http://adamnieman.co.uk/posters/

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bronxiteforever]

44. what is your point?

is it a people are judged for all time about a segment of time in the countrys' history-the genocide of the Irish by the British in the past doesn't lead me to hate the British, that would be frickin stupid- guess what ALL COUNTRIES SUCK AT SOME POINT-Its just unfortunate that we live in the USA when it sucks -ps you are probably living on land Americans ripped off from Native Americans if they didn't kill them for it

[Bridget Burke]

87. Gosh--I'm sure that was a well-thought-out answer to my history lesson.

How sad that it was deleted before I had a chance to read it.

[blackhorse]

131. Excuse me, but you're quite mistaken ...

with the assertion that "The Nazis would have conquered them easily & the UK would have been surrounded.".

Among the most important reasons why a German conquest of Ireland was very unlikely was the German lack of control of the sea lanes and airspace leading to Ireland. For these same reasons, the German plan to invade Britain was abandoned. Ireland might have been bombed and suffered an occasional raid by German special forces, but conquered -- no.

The only way that Ireland could have stood in danger of being conquered was if Britain itself had fallen or had had its military otherwise neutralised.

Cheers

[spinnaker]

120. bullshit!

My parents lived through wwii in galway. The Irish sided with the allies wholeheartedly (despite have won independence from Britain less than 20 years previously).

I would suggest you listen to the recording of Charles Lindberg delivering a speech in New York where the crowd cheers when he predicts that England will be defeated.

[AngryAmish]

123. My Dad lived in Kerry at the time

They hated the British. He rooted for Germany and so did the majority of people of his generation I have spoken from. My mom (Clare) was too young to have an opinion one way or the other at the time but thought Hitler had good ideas but "he went too far, dear".

[spinnaker]

127. yeah well, maybe in kerry

but in the civilized part of the country sympathies lay with Britain and ultimately the US.

[Judi Lynn]

132. Appreciate your comments, spinnaker.

Welcome to D.U.

[Ken Burch]

129. 60,000 Irish citizens served in the British Army in World War II..

...And the numbers of US, Canadian and Anzac troops who were of recent Irish descent was probably in the millions.

This slur about all Irish being cheerleaders for the Reich must finally be put to rest.

[goforit]

27. LOL!!!! Hats off tothe Irish Judicial System! Way to hand it to Bush!

[Henny Penny]

37. There is quite a good account of the trial and outcome in Counterpunch.

http://www.counterpunch.com/browne07252006.html

[iverglas]

52. thanks; there are a few here who need to read it

This trial was the first time a jury was allowed ­ by Judge Miriam Reynolds ­ to hear it argued fully that the 'disarmament' of the navy C40 transport was done with 'lawful excuse'.

... The defence under Ireland's criminal-damage statute allows damage to property if it's done in the 'honest belief' that so doing will protect lives and/or property, and if that belief is reasonable in the circumstances as the accused perceived them to be. Judge Reynolds said only the reasonableness of the belief, not its honesty, was at issue in the case, and said the question was so tied up with the facts of the case that it wouldn't be appropriate for her to prohibit the jury from considering it.

... The trial heard ... from ex-Royal Air Force logistics expert Geoffrey Oxley that he couldn't rule out the possibility of damage to a transport plane having a knock-on effect that could result in lives saved in Iraq. An international-law expert also testified as to the illegality of the US war.

In effect, the jury agreed that to damage an American military plane in these circumstances couldn't be considered a crime.

It is not long, and no one should consider opening his/her mouth about this case without reading it.

And the author is not that Harry Browne. ;)

[Realityhack]

135. THANK YOU!!

I agree with the previous poster that some people here need to read this.

[Just Me]

39. *giggle* n/t

[iverglas]

42. interesting point being reported widely: protestors were Catholic Workers

One of them was Australian, and one was USAmerican and one Scottish.

http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=20686

The five also were members of the Pitstop Ploughshares group. They are Nuin Dunlop of the United States, Ciaron O'Reilly of Australia, Karen Fallon of Scotland, and Deirdre Clancy and Damien Moran, both from Ireland.

Confirmed atheist though I am, I have always respected the commitment to social justice that Catholic Workers, and worker priests in the RC church, for instance (along with social justice workers in other religious organizations), put into action.

The acquittal was a jury verdict. While it may be consistent with Irish law, I'm skeptical; still looking for details. I suspect that it's what would be called "jury nullification" in the States: the jury simply refused to apply the law.

I've noticed a lot of people around DU who are fans of that concept. I'm not. And I expect that the people who committed these acts were fully prepared to be convicted and punished for them, if their claim of necessity, which is what it seems to have been and which is in itself a legitimate excuse for unlawful action, had not been accepted:

http://www.infoshop.org/inews/article.php?story=20060725124215171

The accused at all stages accepted that they had gone into a Shannon Airport hangar with hammers and damaged the aircraft. They argued that they had a lawful excuse for doing so as they honestly believed they were acting to protect lives and property in Iraq.

The jury may have accepted that defence, or simply chosen not to convict for reasons having nothing to do with the law.

[bronxiteforever]

45. Dorothy Day Lives!!!!!!

[gulfcoastliberal]

81. Perhaps a visit to Ireland is in order.

I was thinking about visiting Iceland but I like the spirit of those folks!

[mainer]

86. When I was in Ireland, they proudly showed me a piece of the plane

I was in a pub, and one guy brought out a fragment that he'd pulled off the plane. All his friends were in absolute agreement that he'd done the right thing. They are very much anti-war.

[Name removed]

108. Deleted message

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