WP -9/11 Panel Suspected Deception by Pentagon

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/01/AR2006080101300.html
Panel Suspected Deception by Pentagon
Allegations Brought to Inspectors General

By Dan Eggen
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, August 2, 2006; Page A03

Some staff members and commissioners of the Sept. 11 panel concluded that the Pentagon's initial story of how it reacted to the 2001 terrorist attacks may have been part of a deliberate effort to mislead the commission and the public rather than a reflection of the fog of events on that day, according to sources involved in the debate.

Suspicion of wrongdoing ran so deep that the 10-member commission, in a secret meeting at the end of its tenure in summer 2004, debated referring the matter to the Justice Department for criminal investigation, according to several commission sources. Staff members and some commissioners thought that e-mails and other evidence provided enough probable cause to believe that military and aviation officials violated the law by making false statements to Congress and to the commission, hoping to hide the bungled response to the hijackings, these sources said.

In the end, the panel agreed to a compromise, turning over the allegations to the inspectors general for the Defense and Transportation departments, who can make criminal referrals if they believe they are warranted, officials said.

"We to this day don't know why NORAD told us what they told us," said Thomas H. Kean, the former New Jersey Republican governor who led the commission. "It was just so far from the truth. . . . It's one of those loose ends that never got tied."

Holy shit! Is the dam breaking?

[Wilms]

1. NORAD Lied?

:wow:

[Raster]

101. YES NORAD lied! In the good ol' days before bush*, NORAD controlled

the skies. If a plane went "off the reservation" it was identified, tagged and shadowed until the threat determination was conclusive. Just THIRTY DAYS (30 days) before 9/11 the power to scramble and shoot was transferred from the control of the Commander of NORAD to Donald Rumsferatu. NORAD's official position is nothing more than a dodge to keep from exposing Rumsferatu's DELIBERATE INACTION. They know the first plane was hijacked well over an hour before it hit the first building. The Washington/East Coast air corridor is the most tightly controlled airspace on the planet. The first plane should have been shot down well before NYC, and all other planes should (former S.O.P.) have been grounded. Enough people knew it was a multiple-plane threat. Everything "official" about 9/11 is suspect. on edit: It isn't just NORAD's story that stinks, EVERYONE in the bush* misadministration it seems did THE WRONG THING at the right time to ensure maximum damage from the highjackers and their planes. Just another bush* against-all-odds coincidence...

[The Backlash Cometh]

125. It certainly would knock him off his high, "national security king" perch.

If he got that much power out of a series of bad faith moves, Bushie is in BIG Trouble.

[tbyg52]

145. Surely you jest....

...why should this particular one be any different from all the rest? I mean, I certainly hope so, but *'s gotten away with so much already. In a rational world, * shoulda been outa there a long time ago. In a rational world, the 9/11 Commission woulda known what would become of their compromise and gone for the legal action.

Edited to add: Shirley, call me a pessimist. Hope I'm wrong--nothing would make me happier.

[elehhhhna]

147. Their " compromise" was a BETRAYAL. Period.

[elehhhhna]

146. I have just joined the MIHOP league. NORAD LIED? That's all I need to

know now.

[mrgerbik]

244. Join the HIHOP

Helped it happen on purpose.

[Raster]

248. Thanks. I am definitely in the HIHOP camp. I don't believe the lengths

the bush* mis-administration has gone to cloud, obscure and outright deceive the public about what may or may not have happened on 9/11. It smells rotten.

[TankLV]

289. Actually - it's LIHOP - "Let It Happen On Purpose".

That's the term WE have been using on DU ever since 911...

[indepat]

296. Hi ho, hi ho, it's off to jail may some go

[respublicus]

276. National Poll today: 36% say Government Complicit in 9/11

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/279827_conspiracy02ww.html

Seattle Post-Intelligencer
Thursday, August 3, 2006
Was 9/11 an 'inside job'?

Thirty-six percent of respondents overall said it is "very likely" or "somewhat likely" that federal officials either participated in the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon or took no action to stop them "because they wanted the United States to go to war in the Middle East...

The poll also found that 16 percent of Americans speculate that secretly planted explosives, not burning passenger jets, were the real reason the massive twin towers of the World Trade Center collapsed...

Twelve percent suspect the Pentagon was struck by a military cruise missile in 2001 rather than by an airliner captured by terrorists....

[respublicus]

281. The article is on the front page of Seattle's leading paper

[krkaufman]

193. Freakin' yikes. Good day for 'V for Vendetta' to be coming out on DVD

I'd never heard, before, that the scramble/shoot-down control had been transferred to Rumsfeld. Hell, for that matter, I've never heard ANY discussion on how our air protections failed. (Remember that golfer's plane? We were certainly able to track them down.)

[Raster]

206. Here's another one for you. The actual Air Traffic Control Tower tapes

were removed by a supervisor and "accidentaly" destroyed. If I remember correctly, he actually broke the cassettes open, unraveled the tapes and disposed of them in separate trash containers he had access to.

[Mr_Spock]

235. And he isn't in jail?

That's bizarre.

[krkaufman]

261. *that* I remember hearing about. And am baffled as to why ...

... that guy wasn't put in jail. Was he even fired?

[Name removed]

264. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kailassa]

273. If he was left alive after that it would only be because

he had no way to know who gave him the orders.

But I'd guarantee he expected a significant "benefit" for carrying out that part of the plan.

Pepole say it could not have been organised by "the cabal" because it could never all be covered up.
But they don't look at the removal of all video footage from around the Pentagon, the trashing of these tapes, and the mountains of lies told.

Perhaps a lot of the people involved in planning were given a free plane trip that day.

[lumberjack_jeff]

280. What would motivate someone who is in that position...

... to destroy the tapes?

He didn't expect a reward beyond the reward of being allowed to return home to his family that night.

[Kailassa]

282. You and I (presumably) have no way to know what reward

this man was or was not expecting.

If he did this for somebody who had contacted him and promised him something,
he would hardly be likely to publicise the fact afterwards.

What we do know is that he was aware terrible things had happened that day,
and he deliberately destroyed important tapes.
Tapes which would not normally be destroyed.

He had a reason, the question is only "what?"

[lumberjack_jeff]

283. Our government isn't so good with carrots.

They're too proficient with sticks.

A mid-level supervisor was asked to flagrantly commit an easily-verified and witnessed crime. My guess is that he figured that the delayed risk of prosecution was overshadowed by the immediate risk of a black op on him and/or his family.

[tanyev]

256. Rumsfeld and Cheney began doing continuity of government

exercises in the Reagan years. Even though Rummy was not a government employee. Everything revolves around them.

The Armageddon Plan
by James Mann

At least once a year during the 1980s Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld vanished. Cheney was working diligently on Capitol Hill, as a congressman rising through the ranks of the Republican leadership. Rumsfeld, who had served as Gerald Ford's Secretary of Defense, was a hard-driving business executive in the Chicago area—where, as the head of G. D. Searle & Co., he dedicated time and energy to the success of such commercial products as Nutra-Sweet, Equal, and Metamucil. Yet for periods of three or four days at a time no one in Congress knew where Cheney was, nor could anyone at Searle locate Rumsfeld. Even their wives were in the dark; they were handed only a mysterious Washington phone number to use in case of emergency.

After leaving their day jobs Cheney and Rumsfeld usually made their way to Andrews Air Force Base, outside Washington. From there, in the middle of the night, each man—joined by a team of forty to sixty federal officials and one member of Ronald Reagan's Cabinet—slipped away to some remote location in the United States, such as a disused military base or an underground bunker. A convoy of lead-lined trucks carrying sophisticated communications equipment and other gear would head to each of the locations.

Rumsfeld and Cheney were principal actors in one of the most highly classified programs of the Reagan Administration. Under it U.S. officials furtively carried out detailed planning exercises for keeping the federal government running during and after a nuclear war with the Soviet Union. The program called for setting aside the legal rules for presidential succession in some circumstances, in favor of a secret procedure for putting in place a new "President" and his staff. The idea was to concentrate on speed, to preserve "continuity of government," and to avoid cumbersome procedures; the speaker of the House, the president pro tempore of the Senate, and the rest of Congress would play a greatly diminished role.

A few details about the effort have come to light over the years, but nothing about the way it worked or the central roles played by Cheney and Rumsfeld. The program is of particular interest today because it helps to explain the thinking and behavior of the second Bush Administration in the hours, days, and months after the terrorist attacks on September 11, 2001. Vice President Cheney urged President Bush to stay out of Washington for the rest of that day; Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld ordered his deputy Paul Wolfowitz to get out of town; Cheney himself began to move from Washington to a series of "undisclosed locations"; and other federal officials were later sent to work outside the capital, to ensure the continuity of government in case of further attacks. All these actions had their roots in the Reagan Administration's clandestine planning exercises.

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0318-14.htm

[redqueen]

175. You're surprised?

:wow:

[cspanlovr]

2. I really hope it breaks and washes us clean again.

[respublicus]

278. Break the dam- get out the word- Mihop King Tarpley on Mike Malloy tonite

Call in to talk radios and get the word in edgewise, Watch Mike Malloy on Air America tonight, 10:30 p.m. ET, 7:30 pm ET.

See the kit at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarOnFreedom/message/3013 for pointers.

Congrats to Paul Thompson - I tried to call him on the Randi Rhodes show.
Let's try and win the battle for Air America...

[napi21]

3. Sooo Mr. Kean, where's the damn final report?

The one that you promised was almost done, and then last week, your staff said 2 parts hadn't even been started yet!

I have no idea what this WP article is all about but Kean and the rest of the damn commission need to get their act together and produce that report BEFORE NOV!

[Just Me]

16. RUIN A POLITICAL CAREER!!!!! NO WAY!!!!!

Filter in, though, out,...

"Commission" my ass. What a waste of rat's waste. Their whole damn objective is to validate what the U.S. did,..."truth" be damned. That's the way it is, always has been. Commissions should be prohibited! Issues, such as these, should be placed where they belong,...in a court of law because, there is NO TRUTH-SEEKING OBJECTIVE behind these stupid "commissions".

What a pain and waste of fucking taxpayer money!!!!

[elehhhhna]

148. When they put ex_IL Gov Jim (IN THE CLOSET) Thompson on the panel

I knew it would generate nothng but REAMS of bullshit. He is a very accomplished LIAR.

[Justice Is Comin]

92. I think you're thinking of the pre-war intelligence report

with that bald asshole Roberts. This is another rotten tomato stuffed under the rug by an equally repugnant puke.

[napi21]

103. i'm alking about the report that Reed shut the Senate down for.

Remember the day Reed and the other Dems shut down the Senate because they had been promised the final report from the 911 Commission and adn't received it? That day Roberts said they were almost done with it and all Reed had to do was ask!

Well, that's been over 6 months and STILL NOTHING! I heard the other day they hadn't yet started on 2 parts of it, but HOPED to have it completed AFTER NOVEMBER!!!!!!

[Justice Is Comin]

201. Absolutely my friend.

It's very hard to keep all these mf's straight.

They're just everywhere!!

[Name removed]

139. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LiberalEsto]

212. And his son's running for NJ governor nt

[katty]

233. Kean has been a player for a long time-the dam maybe breaking

[enuffs_enuffs]

4. Sweet n/t

[Punkingal]

5. It is good that he is talking about it now, I guess, but

Why, why, why, would they not tie up all loose ends? That just seems to defeat the purpose of such a comission, if they conclude without satisfactory answers.

[John Q. Citizen]

53. I wonder what other loose ends they didn't tie up? n/t

[mirandapriestly]

61. Especially over something so important! eom

[tbyg52]

149. Sure, IMPORTANT!

From the end of the article:

"My view of that was that whether it was willful or just the fog of stupid bureaucracy, I don't know," Lehman said. "But in the order of magnitude of things, going after bureaucrats because they misled the commission didn't seem to make sense to me."

What part of "hold the people who supposedly work for us accountable" don't you understand!!!!!!

[elehhhhna]

150. SAY FUCKIN WHAT?

"going after bureaucrats because they misled the commission didn't seem to make sense to me." ??!!??!!?

Translation; Rove has pics of me in drag screwing a python and screaming "Mama!"

[Minstrel Boy]

6. The link doesn't work for me. This one does, though:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/01/AR2006080101300.html

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

7. thank you - link fixed. nt.

[hang a left]

9. Thanks

Ommissions and Distortions

[rodeodance]

67. "he believed the panel may have been lied to but"--BUT SAYS NOT

CRIMINAL.


...."I was shocked at how different the truth was from the way it was described," John Farmer, a former New Jersey attorney general who led the staff inquiry into events on Sept. 11, said in a recent interview. "The tapes told a radically different story from what had been told to us and the public for two years. . . . This is not spin. This is not true."

Arnold, who could not be reached for comment yesterday, told the commission in 2004 that he did not have all the information unearthed by the panel when he testified earlier. Other military officials also denied any intent to mislead the panel.

John F. Lehman, a Republican commission member and former Navy secretary, said in a recent interview that he believed the panel may have been lied to but that he did not believe the evidence was sufficient to support a criminal referral.

"My view of that was that whether it was willful or just the fog of stupid bureaucracy, I don't know," Lehman said. "But in the order of magnitude of things, going after bureaucrats because they misled the commission didn't seem to make sense to me."

[redqueen]

179. Isn't lying to congress criminal?

Who do these people think they're foolin?

[nam78_two]

8. your link is broken-here it is

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/01/AR2006080101300.html

[Trillo]

10. Last paragraph is quite revealing. n/t

[ShockediSay]

11. Oh Good. NeoCons get away w/ setting us up

on 9/11, imho, so they'd have a pretext to "remake the middle east."

I always wondered why fighter jets weren't scrambled sooner.

[Peace Patriot]

18. Yup, that's what hooked me, too. NORAD standard procedures failed on

that day, and on that day only. And our capitol lay wide open to attack--and the Pentagon, for godssakes!

I've always felt it was the stray thread in the tapestry. You pull it and........................we get our country back again? Mebe.

And then there's that little item about Rumsfeld--his pulling all NORAD decisions into HIS hands three months before, and then being "in a meeting" oblivious to the entire event, until he emerges AFTER the Pentagon is hit, and says he was "helping the wounded." That was his story.

In the Old Republic, heads would have rolled. I was surprised when they didn't even put up a show of it. I thought at least a few poor grubs would be guillotined. Nada. Ho-hum. On to Baghdad--and yet more MIND-BOGGLING BushWorld "incompetence."

But this thing of Kean's has got to be the most bizarro development yet. They all thought the Pentagon was LYING--and they're telling us this NOW???????

I'm gonna go back and read it again. I read the OP twice, and I still don't quite believe what I'm reading.

[kster]

69. Until I see this ON TV, I think of this story as a distraction to the vote

theft machines. My two cents. They know we are on to them with the election theft machines so they will try anything to get us to get after the next story.

Look at the Plame story, that went NO WHERE.

You hnow the song Follow,Follow,Follow,Follow,Follow the yellow brick road.

My two cents, Plame got us Zip. This story will get us Zip. Wheres the Kennedy lawsuit story?

Election theft machine is what caused all of this, and we need to stay on target. Don't ya think?

[mod mom]

126. I agree. The election theft machines are the root of so many problems, as

is the GOP disenfranchisement of voters. We cannot really address the issues until we have the opportunity to get officials elected by the people instead of the machines (including GOP theft machine.)

[brindis_desala]

182. You are right on target. More distractions while democracy perishes.

[earth mom]

188. Yeah, but without TERRORIZING the people, how ya gonna get them

to agree to giving up all their rights? Or scaring them into voting for the reTHUGS?

9/11 and voting machine fraud go hand in hand.

[FredStembottom]

133. I agree. I simply can't "grok" it.

That they were lied to and it "didn't make sense" to investigate the lies!!!!!!!

I mean, I have been sure of an inside job since I watched the whole 9/11 disaster on live TV that morning. My wife and I spent 3 hours saying - out loud - YELLING - AGAIN and AGAIN - WHERE ARE THE FIGHTER PLANES??? They always send fighter planes within minutes! WHERE ARE THE FIGHTER PLANES?!?!

[Wednesdays]

211. Not only on that day, but afterward...

I remember how eerily quiet it was in the days following, because they grounded all aircraft. But there's an air force base near us and that was quiet, too. I was thinking, if America is under attack, wouldn't it make sense to have some fighter jets patrolling the skies?

[Just Me]

20. In what way? Explain.

Last paragraph reads:

"My view of that was that whether it was willful or just the fog of stupid bureaucracy, I don't know," Lehman said. "But in the order of magnitude of things, going after bureaucrats because they misled the commission didn't seem to make sense to me."

*raising eybrows*

Are you actually proposing the fucking bureaucrats fucked up and MISLED the commission rather than the NeoCONLIARMURDEROUSCORPOCRATS!!!

BAH!!! :rofl: BAHFUCBAHAAAAA!!!! :rofl:

[Just Me]

21. POINT! The HEADS OF STATE MISLED THE COMMISSION,....

,...not the poor bureacrats that are enslaved to the will of their masters.

[Trillo]

39. I read "Bureaucrats" as generally, the Executive Branch in this usage.

A congressional commission is lied to by the Executive Branch, and the commission rolls over. Further, while it's not in the last paragraph, Lehman is former Executive Branch.

So, 'who you gonna call' when the Executive Branch is lying? Why, the Executive Branch, of course.

[MagickMuffin]

56. My thoughts exactly,

John F. Lehman, a Republican commission member and former Navy secretary, said in a recent interview that he believed the panel may have been lied to but that he did not believe the evidence was sufficient to support a criminal referral.

"My view of that was that whether it was willful or just the fog of stupid bureaucracy, I don't know," Lehman said. "But in the order of magnitude of things, going after bureaucrats because they misled the commission didn't seem to make sense to me."

WTF is that all about. Because they misled the commission didn't make sense to you. This isn't about YOU, this is about accountability!

What about the 3000 dead?

What about the American people?

What about National Security?

What about future attacks?

:wtf:

[catzies]

294. Something about accountability just hit me - they misled us on that too

Remember how going to war was supposed to extract vengeance for 9/11; first Pakistan and then their ultimate goal Iraq? So...they had to lie about it to get what they wanted: the Iraq War! :wow:

THEY NEEDED 9/11 AND THEY HAD TO LIE ABOUT WHY THEY NEEDED IT.

[sattahipdeep]

297. Their ultimate goal? Richard Nixon.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/08/18/WIRETAP.TMP

....
Congress is discussing proposals to modify the 1978 Foreign Intelligence
Surveillance Act and give the government more leeway to conduct
electronic surveillance.

....
She said the post-Sept. 11 congressional authorization of military force did
not mention surveillance or suspend federal law's requirement of court
approval for wiretaps. Even if the military-force resolution had authorized
wiretapping, Taylor said, Congress cannot override the Constitution.

....
By disregarding the warrant requirement, Taylor said, the government also
is violating the Fourth Amendment, which prohibits unreasonable
searches and requires warrants based on specific evidence of wrongdoing.
She said the program also violates the First Amendment guarantees of free
speech and association and the constitutional requirement of separation of
powers.

[FredStembottom]

131. This sentence will stay with me for months:

>>>>>>> Lehman said. "But in the order of magnitude of things, going after bureaucrats because they misled the commission didn't seem to make sense to me."<<<<<<<

That is the most RETARDED thing I have ever read in conjunction with an investigation!!!!!!

It's like saying in a murder trial: Considering the magnitude of the crime, going after the suspect for lying to us didn't seem to make sense to me."




:argh:

[jackstraw45]

224. Sums up the problem with our government in a nutshell...

John F. Lehman, a Republican commission member and former Navy secretary: "But in the order of magnitude of things, going after bureaucrats because they misled the commission didn't seem to make sense to me."

[Vidar]

12. Nice to see it hitting the main stream.

[Straight Shooter]

13. It's time to find that loose end and make a noose out of it. n/t

[Nostradammit]

62. Nice!

:applause:

Very, very nice.

[drfresh]

63. rubbing my eyes

Did I just see a John McCain banner advertisement on DU, or am I hallucinating?

[Just Me]

14. EWWWWWW! *LOL*

Oh, gracious,...this could not possibly be: the DoD, the Pentagon heads HIDING SHIT FROM CONGRESS AND THOSE THEY ARE SUPPORSE TO SERVE (in case they forgot, the people).

OMFG! This just can NOT be possible!!!!!

belch.

oops.

The NeoCONsters defrauded their own country and people. It's forgiveable, I guess, but it's also the highest crime against this nation. That crime is called "treason".

But, heck,...that's the least damaging of treasonous activities these, um, "call them as you may" bastards have acted against this nation and her people, just a scent of what they have criminally imposed upon millions of other innocent human beings.

Gee. I wonder what justice they will receive for their murderous savagery upon humanity. Will GOD wage divine justice upon these evil men?

Well, ultimately, they all die, THANK GOD!!!! :rofl:

[earth mom]

44. Could those who assisted in the cover up be tried for treason too?

Like the corporate media whores and websites like KOS who won't let anything about this be posted or discussed because in their opinion it's too tinfoilhatish?

Accessory after the fact-isn't that what it's called?

On second thought, lets just call it what it is: "Treason".

:grr:

[elehhhhna]

152. kos sucks imo

[elehhhhna]

151. Why wait for God's intervention? Let's make it hell on earth for them.

The wheel is slowly turning and it cannot be stopped.

[bleever]

15. Holy me my Moly.

Kean admits NORAD testimony without credibility and a source of serious doubt?

9/11 commissioners wanted a criminal referral?

And we're actually hearing about it?

In the Washington Post?


(pinching self. OW!)

[Peace Patriot]

23. That was my reaction exactly. I've now read it FOUR TIMES!

And I still don't believe what I'm reading.

Are we sure this isn't a hoax? (--that thought just occurred to me.)

And **FEAR** just occurred to me! Another one coming? Or, PNAC is far enough along, with Israel's help, "Gulf of Tonkin" coming up, we're in it that fast, WW III, so what do they care what we think? In fact, what do WE care what we think? This coup is so far out of control, and so powerful now, it. doesn't. matter.

"...may have been part of a deliberate effort to mislead the commission and the public...."

"Suspicion of wrongdoing ran so deep....

"...the 10-member commission..."

"...in a secret meeting..."

"...debated referring the matter to the Justice Department for criminal investigation..."

"... military and aviation officials violated the law..."

"...making false statements...hoping to hide the bungled response to the hijackings..."

"...hoping to hide the bungled response to the hijackings..." --hoping to hide...

...the bungled....bungled!...bungled?

...response...bungled response....

"'It was just so far from the truth. . . . It's one of those loose ends that never got tied.'"

:wow: :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow:

[bleever]

29. I scrutinized the url, to see if it was a spoof. I really pinched myself.

"...hoping to hide..."

At whose behest?

Why hide?

The same reason the Phase II investigationb into admin. use of pre-war intelligence is not happening?


"Bungled?" WTF?

[Name removed]

93. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ghost Dog]

111. Yes, that's it, unless "Another One" is no longer necessary (re. Lebanon):

And **FEAR** just occurred to me! Another one coming? Or, PNAC is far enough along, with Israel's help, "Gulf of Tonkin" coming up, we're in it that fast, WW III, so what do they care what we think? In fact, what do WE care what we think? This coup is so far out of control, and so powerful now, it. doesn't. matter.

See eg. James Bamford's article for the Aug. 10 Rolling Stone "Iran: The Next War":

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/10962352/iran_the_next_war/1
(and see Ledeen/Bamford exchange of letters here: http://www.rollingstone.com/nationalaffairs/?p=374

<snip to conclusion (p.6)>

In the end, the work of Franklin and the other members of Feith's secret office had the desired effect. Working behind the scenes, the members of the Office of Special Plans succeeded in setting the United States on the path to all-out war with Iran. Indeed, since Bush was re-elected to a second term, he has made no secret of his desire to see Tehran fall. In a victory speech of sorts on Inauguration Day in January 2005, Vice President Dick Cheney warned bluntly that Iran was "right at the top" of the administration's list of "trouble spots"—and that Israel "might well decide to act first" by attacking Iran. The Israelis, Cheney added in an obvious swipe at moderates in the State Department, would "let the rest of the world worry about cleaning up the diplomatic mess afterward."

Over the past six months, the administration has adopted almost all of the hard-line stance advocated by the war cabal in the Pentagon. In May, Bush's ambassador to the United Nations, John Bolton, appeared before AIPAC's annual conference and warned that Iran "must be made aware that if it continues down the path of international isolation, there will be tangible and painful consequences." To back up the tough talk, the State Department is spending $66 million to promote political change inside Iran—funding the same kind of dissident groups that helped drive the U.S. to war in Iraq. "We may face no greater challenge from a single country than from Iran," Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice declared.

In addition, the State Department recently beefed up its Iran Desk from two people to ten, hired more Farsi speakers and set up eight intelligence units in foreign countries to focus on Iran. The administration's National Security Strategy—the official policy document that sets out U.S. strategic priorities—now calls Iran the "single country" that most threatens U.S. interests.

The shift in official policy has thrilled former members of the cabal. To them, the war in Lebanon represents the final step in their plan to turn Iran into the next Iraq. Ledeen, writing in the National Review on July 13th, could hardly restrain himself. "Faster, please," he urged the White House, arguing that the war should now be taken over by the U.S. military and expanded across the entire region. "The only way we are going to win this war is to bring down those regimes in Tehran and Damascus, and they are not going to fall as a result of fighting between their terrorist proxies in Gaza and Lebanon on the one hand, and Israel on the other. Only the United States can accomplish it," he concluded. "There is no other way."

[lthuedk]

185. What amazes me is the reluctance of law enforcement

to stop blatant crimes in progress before further damage visits our nation. One has hope they will release confiscated Pentagon impact video, all retrieved 9-11 black boxes, the entire AIPAC-related investigation/prosecution, and the federal election theft investigations, all in the form of simultaneously-delivered indictments. But when?

I believe hope is not a mirage, but the other set of connected dots.







edit: spelling

[krkaufman]

195. Here's hoping you're image caption rings true. n/t

[petgoat]

271. They'll hide in Saudi Arabia. nt

[orwell]

17. Would that be a conspiracy?

Of course not.

As I have been reminded so often, they don't exist...

[MAX 1]

35. OMFG

Well said.:toast:

[John Q. Citizen]

74. Of course not. everyone knows it would be impossible to get so many

people to cover this up for 5 fucking years!

[rman]

81. The Official Conspiracy Theory has it a few dozen people were involved -

What do you mean "so many people"?

Besides, anyone involved has every incentive to keep quiet about it. Talking about it means not to be rewarded and it means to incriminate oneself.
Even if someone would talk, it's a simple matter of damage control by issuing a gag-order and/or by ridiculing the person.

[John Q. Citizen]

83. Norad, the Pentagon, the FAA, the Air trafic controllers, the 9/11

commision, commision staff, the airlines, military personel.

The OCT has no clothes.

I imagine in any conspiracy there is incentive to keep quite. In this case there are a lot of people who knew I'm betting.

[rman]

84. Your "betting" is hardly convincing

I suppose you know the military and related organizations are organized very hierarchically and compartmentalized; everyone knows only enough to do their job. Most know very little even if an operation is not a conspiracy.

[John Q. Citizen]

166. And when it is a conspiracy, or a cover up, these

compartmentalized participants aren't aware of their role in that cover-up or conspiracy.

They just follow orders and go on their merry way.

[flyarm]

187. or suiciding them!!!!!!!!!! n/t

[Grateful for Hope]

97. LOL!

One more argument going down the tubes!

[Mnemosyne]

108. Research "The Manhattan Project". n/t

[eppur_se_muova]

213. aka "the silence of six hundred thousand" nt

[Exiled in America]

229. The difference between conspiracy and conspiratologists

Conspiracies exist. All over the place, in fact they're not even uncommon. However, the problem lies with what I will call "conspiratologists." These are folks who abandon the methods of reason and rational invesitigation and instead let what they already want to believe drive their pursuit of information.

It's a danger we can all get trapped in.

The biggest thing I dislike about conspiratologists (which in NO way refers to ALL people who believe there are lies all over the official 9/11 story) is when they slap a string of fifty questions together, all of which they have no answer for, and then because these questsions do not yet have answers, they choose to draw their own conclusion, based on little or no evidence, the fact that there is a string of unanswered questions.

Here's what I think we know about 9/11, that we can back up with collected evidence.

The official story about what happened on 9/11 is full of lies - in fact its ok to just say it IS a lie.

We know this. What we don't know is what was the purpose of the lie, and what was the actual truth. Was the lie to cover up the government planning and executing the attack for its own purposes? Was the lie to cover up the goverment willfully allowing but not planning an attack because it believed the results of the attack would further its own interests? Was the lie to cover up staggering bumbling stumbling ineptitude on the part of the goverment, much like we witnessed during Katrina? Was the lie for the purpose of some other end that we have as of yet not understood?

We don't know.

Anyone who says they DO know is lying to you. We all have strong opinions, but we all have pretty good reasons for our strong opinions. In the end, without exposing the LIES and getting access to MORE TRUTH - we simply don't have enough data to "know" what really happened. :( All we know is that we were lied to.

[dailykoff]

231. Oh bullshit.

More crap logic from disinfo.edu a.k.a. MIT.

Chomsky is a shill whether he realizes it or not.

[Exiled in America]

232. lol, ok. what does that have to do with anything I wrote?

So if I had a different avatar would you have anything intelligent to say?

[dailykoff]

246. It's just the kind of nonsense

chomsky peddles to keep the flies off his honeypots, 9/11 being one of them. Claiming "we'll just never, never know because the world is so very, very complicated" is horseshit. I know what happened on 9/11, and if you don't then you haven't been paying enough attention.

[Exiled in America]

268. I never said we'll never know.

I said we don't know the answers to some very specific questions right now.

And frankly I think people like you, who dogmatically claim you absolutely "know" exactly what happened on 9/11 do a huge and terrible disservice to those of us who are actually trying to get to the truth and put pressure on the right sources to release information or come clean.

I'll ignore your comments about chomsky because they are baseless and devoid of a single shred of evidence. Pretty typical really - stating a conclusion as though it were fact with nothing of substance to back it up, only innuendo.

[Kailassa]

277. Scientific breakthroughs need:

1. The unafraid, open-minded examination of all the facts.

2. The formation of theories to explain these facts.

3. The testing of these theories.

Any logical, intelligent or scientifically trained individual will applaud these endeavors,
unless they have an ulterior motive,
such as the prevention of people from discovering the truth.

So we are besieged by false logic and ridicule from the clockwork doggies,
whose owners wind them up and put them in place
whenever they see enquiring minds questioning the lies.

[Exiled in America]

287. Nope, questioning lies isn't the problem

It's mistaking questions for answers that's the problem.

There are two kinds of people asking questions about 9/11. There are the same people who think the government is covering up aliens and that we faked the moon landing. Then there are the serious men and women of science and rational inquiry, many of whom have given blood sweat and tears to the real pursuit of truth and I applaud them for it. Perhaps you're one of them, in which case hats off.

[petgoat]

19. OK, so the story is that the Pentagon lied, and the 9/11 Commission

covered up the fact that they lied, but now everybody's telling the truth.
They expect me to believe that?

[Just Me]

24. CYA. CYA. CYA.

Although, IF IF IF the "rule of law" actually mattered these days, I don't see the point of all these convesations/revelations/whatnots.

I mean, clearly, if the rule of law had applied to this NEOCONCRIMINAL administration, they would have been charged with treason a couple years ago. So, I figure, the only real utility of this "revelation" is CYA, CYA, CYA and the criminals will be free to continue to fuck up the world even after they are ejected from power.

I just wonder whether the democrats will make the same DAMNED (I repeat, DAMNED) mistake they did before: FAIL TO PROSECUTE TO THE FULL EXTENT OF THE LAW ALL CRIMINAL MISCONDUCT.

If they do, I believe my direction in this life will be defined.

[AntiFascist]

47. It seems that only some of the "progressive democrats" give a damn....

the rest will go with the warmongering flow.

[TankLV]

290. and to ASSIGN BLAME - don't forget that "small" point.

Exactly what all these "commissions/investigations" did explicitly NOT want to do!

[Grateful for Hope]

98. Makes me wonder

what else is going to come out in the near future.

[bleever]

22. So very much looking forward to tomorrow's article and reaction.

Goodnight, moon.

[SupplyConcerns]

49. It will be ignored

I'm afraid that what will happen is like what happened with the JFK assasination. In 30 years, some poll will come out revealing that a solid 2/3rds on Americans believe in MIHOP or LIHOP, but there will never be a day of reckoning for the guilty parties or any sort of public revolt.

[Nostradammit]

65. This is bigger than JFK's murder.

Much, much, much bigger.

The American people are enraged and they are learning amazing things.

Woe be unto those who have deceived them.

[readmoreoften]

78. Shit, 60% of Americans in polls ALREADY don't believe the official story.

And two years ago in a Zogby poll 50% of NYers were MIHOP.

[usregimechange]

25. Lets get this to the troops.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[leveymg]

26. This is going to get some coverage.

About time - of course they knew they were being lied to. The Commission went right along with the charade - recall how they dealt with the Able Danger info.

[petgoat]

31. how they dealt with the Able Danger info.

they said: "It's not part of the story we want to tell."

[babylonsister]

36. SO MANY unanswered things going on with this admin.

This, Tice, Able Danger, Sibel Edmonds, ad infinitum or nauseum, take your pick.

[leveymg]

124. All parts of the same giant jigsaw puzzle.

What America needs is a Giant Jigsaw Puzzle Party. I would assign 25 U.S. Attorneys and their staffs to it, along with every noted investigative journalist who's ever published anything significant on the subject, and offer amnesty (and the witness protection program, if needed) to any lower or middle-ranking official who comes forward. Those who continue to lie, stonewall, and obstruct justice should be given 20-years to life.

Now, Ladies and Gentlemen, start assembling those pieces!

[Name removed]

172. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[leveymg]

123. "Not historically significant", was the phrase used by Gov. Keane.

Only history can say that.

[leveymg]

128. This is related to the Judy Miller al-Qaeda tip-off story today

Judy Miller lost her appeal, and must reveal who was the source for her leak to Grover Norquist's Holy Land Foundation group that was being investigated by an FBI task force under Patrick Fitzgerald in late 2001 as a financing source for al-Qaeda. So, who were the "government officials" who criminally leaked this to Judy?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20...
N.Y. Times Must Surrender Reporters' Phone Data
Appellate Panel Rejects First Amendment Claim in Federal Grand Jury Probe

By Charles Lane
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, August 2, 2006; Page A16

The New York Times may not withhold reporters' phone records from a federal grand jury investigating an alleged leak of a pending government raid on two Islamic charities suspected of supporting terrorism, a federal appeals court ruled yesterday. A three-judge panel of the New York-based U.S. Court of Appeals for the 2nd Circuit ruled 2 to 1 that the Times has no First Amendment or other legal right to refuse a demand for the records from the grand jury in Chicago, which was empaneled by U.S. Attorney Patrick J. Fitzgerald.

The government's interest in rooting out a possible crime outweighs the newspaper's interest in protecting reporters' sources, the court concluded. "The government has a compelling interest in maintaining the secrecy of imminent asset freezes or searches lest the targets be informed and spirit away those assets or incriminating evidence," Judge Ralph K. Winter Jr. wrote. "At stake in the present investigation, therefore, is not only the important principle of secrecy regarding imminent law enforcement actions but also a set of facts -- informing the targets of those impending actions -- that may constitute a serious obstruction of justice."

SNIP

Last year, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit ordered Judith Miller and other reporters to supply a grand jury empaneled by Fitzgerald, acting as a Justice Department special counsel, with names of sources in the Valerie Plame CIA leak investigation.

Though the legal issues and the cast of characters are similar, this case is separate from the case of the Plame leak. It arises from Fitzgerald's post-Sept. 11, 2001, investigation of possible links between al-Qaeda and two U.S.-based Islamic charities, the Holy Land Foundation and the Global Relief Fund.

In December 2001, Times reporters Miller and Philip Shenon learned of a pending government move to freeze the two groups' assets. They called the charities for comment shortly before FBI agents raided their offices.
Fitzgerald argued that the Miller and Shenon calls tipped off the charities, increasing the risk to agents and encouraging destruction of evidence. The Times denied this. Fitzgerald is trying to find out if any government officials illegally leaked information to the reporters.

SNIP

So, who are these unnamed "government officials" who Fitzgerald is investigating for tipping off Judy to the fact that the FBI was looking into the financial links between al-Qaeda and these Grover Norquist Islamic charities, and why did Judy drop a dime and tell them the Feds were on the way?

[Name removed]

135. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[flyarm]

189. yes i believe so and some dots are getting connected!

see if i have this right here:

ARE YOU GETTING A PICTURE NOW OF WHAT HAS GONE ON?? LET ME REFRESH YOU A BIT..

-JUDY MILLER LIED IN THE NYT ABOUT WMD..

-JUDY MILLER WAS THE #1 CHAMPION OF US GOING TO WAR IN IRAQ..

-JUDY MILLER WAS THE VERY LAST PERSON TO COMMUNICATE WITH DR. DAVID KELLY former senior UN weapons inspector FOR IRAQ...FROM BRITIAN BEFORE HE SUPPOSEDLY SUICIDED HIMSELF ( CASE MAY BE RE-OPENED AT PRESENT)
HE WAS THE MAN WHO LEAKED TO THE BBC THAT THE WMD CLAIMS BY BRITIAN AND THE USA WERE LIES!! ( SEXED UP) this was right around the time valerie plame's identity was exposed

-JUDY MILLER WARNED GROVER NORQUIST charity group..THAT THE FBI WAS GOING TO DO A RAID ON HIS CHARITY OFFICES .. THAT WAS **allegedly** FUNDING TERRORISTS and was under investigation BY PATRICK FITZGERALD OF THE NEW YORK PROSECUTORS OFFICE INVESTIGATING the funding 9/11

-JUDY MILLER WAS PUT IN JAIL FOR NOT CO-OPERATING WITH PATRICK FITZGERALDS INVESTIGATION OF THE VALERIE PLAME LEAK SHE WAS ..
**allegedly **COVERING UP FOR SCOOTER LIBBY

-NOW THE US COURT OF APPEALS SAYS THE NYT MUST GIVE UP THE PHONE NUMBERS OF PEOPLE WHO CONTACTED OR WERE CONTACTED IN CONNECTION WITH THE 9/11 INVESTIGATION AND GRAND JURY INVOLVING WHO SPILLED THE BEANS TO JUDITH MILLER..

WHO ELSE BUT JUDY????
ANY QUESTIONS ???????

fly

[seemslikeadream]

160. THERE MUST HAVE BEEN A MILITARY ORDER - ABLE DANGER INFO

BUDDY BUDDY
http://www.gsnmagazine.com.nyud.net:8090/images/aug_05/atta.jpg
DO THE MATH

24 MINUTES

THERE MUST HAVE BEEN A MILITARY ORDER WATCH THIS VIDEO

http://www.bushflash.com/buddy.html


http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/8/24/124834/678


DIA Agents were ordered to put yellow Post-its over Atta's face and the face's of 3 other 9/11 terrorists

"We were directed to take those 3M yellow stickers and place them over the faces of Atta and the other terrorists and pretend they didn't exist," the intelligence officer told GSN."

Intel agents Michael Shaffer and Scott Philpott have confirmed Rep. Weldon's claims that a chart with Atta's face, soon the photos of 3 other members of the 9-11 terror team, were known to DIA team Able Danger by early 2000.

This diary will show that Pete Schoomaker and Philip Zelikow are two of the main Perpetraitors in this scandal, that they deliberately withheld information from the President of the United States that would have prevented 9/11, that they and their neo-con rulers Let It Happen On Purpose.

Of this there can no longer be any doubt.



MUST READ - RE: ABLE DANGER INFO
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4447706

Hopsicker: Able Danger Intel Exposed "Protected" Heroin Trafficking
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x149481


Able Danger: Short Time-line
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4441903

Was Able Danger Shut Down After It Detected Condi-PRC Spy Ring?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4494524



Senate May Hold Hearings on Able Danger, Info Sharing
Thursday, August 25, 2005


Able Danger (search) is the code name for a military-intelligence unit that apparently learned a year before the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks that lead hijacker Mohamed Atta (search) and other terrorists were already in the United States.

One of the central Able Danger claims — that military lawyers blocked the sharing of the Atta information from the FBI in the late summer and early fall of 2000 — will be a focus of the committee's if a hearing takes place, FOX News has confirmed.

Some analysts involved with Able Danger have recently gone public with their findings, saying they were discouraged from looking further into Atta, and their attempts to share their information with the FBI were thwarted, because Atta was a legal foreign visitor at the time.

"This story needs to be told. The American people need to be told what could have been done to prevent 3,000 people from losing their lives," said Rep. Curt Weldon (search), R-Pa.

Weldon drew attention to Able Danger by speaking about it on the House floor and publicly calling for the Sept. 11 commission to explain why the intelligence information wasn't detailed in its final report.

Some Able Danger analysts, including Army Reserve Lt. Col. Anthony Shaffer (search) and Navy Capt. Scott Phillpott (search), claim that in October 2003, they told commission staffers of the presence of Al Qaeda operatives in the United States in 2000.


more
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,166800,00.html


Senate May Hold Hearings on Able Danger, Info Sharing
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1727804&mesg_id=1727804




Condi in Middle of Able Danger ‘Cover Up’"

Weldon is now saying that the Pentagon cover up of able danger “will shake the country to its roots."

...

If the claims made by the Able Danger participants and Rep. Weldon are confirmed, former National Security Adviser Rice and other Bush Administration officials will face a barrage of questions. First would likely be an inquiry into why the administration unceremoniously axed the Able Danger project in May of 2001.

During an August 20th interview on C-Span’s Washington Journal, Able Danger member Lt. Col. Schaffer posed a question of his own:

"The American public should ask themselves: Why would the leadership of DoD shut down, terminate, a project which was aimed at targeting al-Qaeda offensively? ...

"Why would they shut that down, four months before 9/11? That’s the big question right now, we have to ask that. I don’t know the answer to that question because I know my side of the story, I know that when a 2 star general got in my face and said, “I’m a 2 star general and you are not. You are to stop your support of Able Danger.” That’s what I know personally. But the question has to be: Who told him to do that? ...

"And why did the rest of the project, I’m talking about Special Operations Command and the Army portion of this, why was that terminated?

"Those are the questions that need to be asked."


more...

http://www.theinternationalpost.com/z30082005.html

Congressman Weldon -- Why now? Why ever?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=4500623

Three more assert Pentagon knew of 9/11 ringleader By Will Dunham

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Three more people associated with a secret U.S. military intelligence team have asserted that the program identified September 11 ringleader Mohammed Atta as an Al Qaeda suspect inside the United States more than a year before the 2001 attacks, the Pentagon said on Thursday.

The Pentagon said a three-week review had turned up no documents to back up the assertion, but did not rule out that such documents relating to the classified operation had been destroyed.

Navy Capt. Scott Phillpott and Army Lt. Col. Anthony Shaffer last month came forward with statements that a secret intelligence program code-named "Able Danger" had identified Atta, the lead hijacker in the attacks that killed 3,000 people, in early 2000. Pennsylvania Republican Rep. Curt Weldon (news, bio, voting record), vice chairman of the House of Representatives Armed Services Committee, also went public with the allegations.

Pat Downs, a senior policy analyst in the office of the undersecretary of defense for intelligence, told reporters that as part of the review, the Pentagon interviewed 80 people.

Downs said that three more people, as well as Phillpott and Shaffer, recalled the existence of an intelligence chart identifying Atta by name. Four of the five recalled a photo of Atta accompanying the chart, Downs said.

Pentagon officials declined to identify the three by name, but said they were an analyst with the military's Special Operations Command, an analyst with the Land Information Warfare Assessment Center and a contractor who supported the center.

Downs said all five were considered "credible people."

But officials said an exhaustive search of tens of thousands of documents and electronic files related to Able Danger failed to find the chart or other documents corroborating the identification of Atta. Phillpott has said Atta was identified by Able Danger by January or February of 2000.

"We have not discovered that chart," Downs said.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050901/pl_nm/security_attacks_pentagon_dc


Three more assert Pentagon knew of 9/11 ringleader
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1744982&mesg_id=1744982

Specter Wants Answers About 'Able Danger'
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1796658&mesg_id=1796658


NYT/Reuters: Pentagon Blocks Testimony at Senate Hearing on Terrorist
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1795221&mesg_id=1795221

NOW - ON CAPITOL HILL - Able Danger Inquiry CSPAN3 9:30am et
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4836496

Able Danger ties Condi Rice to Chinese espionage! (really!)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4846388&mesg_id=4846388

VIDEO-the Senate Judicial Committee ABLE DANGER saga
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?

Official: (Curt Weldon) Attack on Cole foreseen (ABLE DANGER)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1915365&mesg_id=1915365

New 9/11 Timeline update, with new Able Danger page
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?

Weldon seeks Defense testimony on al-Qaida
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1931300

Weldon rips 9/11 commission over intelligence failures
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1959226

General gave OK for Able Danger (confirms al-Qaida mission prior to 9/11)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1973724

[flyarm]

28. thw whole damn commission was nothing but a pre election cover up!

it was a cover up from the get go..

i hate the commissioners as much as this administration that has done nothing but lied!

fly ..a now retired ..2001 flight attend of the year NYC base for one of the airlines involved..

[sofa king]

192. I should have known when I saw Slade Gorton on the Commission.

Skeletor. What a dick.

[TankLV]

291. And don't forget that that scum Roberts INSERTED LIES into the report

AFTER it was finished to make is sound the OPPOSITE of what the commission nad minimally decided - UNKNOWN TO THE REST OF THE COMMISSION.

So now - the LIES are part of the "official record"...

[TankLV]

292. Every single one of these CRIMINALS should get the "Mousilini treatment"..

Starting with Keane & Roberts...

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

30. Compromise. Whig-Tory, Missouri or any other

damn thing has NEVER helped us in this country.

When are we going to learn that?

[bbgrunt]

32. Interesting that Nightline covered the Vanity Fair

story tonight in terms of some of the tapes, but the gist was that everyone bungled and they couldn't find the planes and the defense department was engaged in exercises.......basically incompetence upon incompetence....not much different than the commission report.

[grasswire]

40. what is the Vanity Fair story?

Did I miss something?

[bbgrunt]

58. sorry, I thought it was mentioned in the article--

but basically it was a story about new tapes of air traffic controllers and , I think, FAA and Norad. I've been watching "Painful Deceptions" and "Loose Change 2" all evening and everything is getting conflated in my head.

My point, I guess, is that this can be ignored just like the Downing Street Memos, torture, warrantless wiretaps and everything else. The corporate media manages to sneak out a bit of truth here and there but then it is marginalized and ignored.

[Ghost Dog]

112. Vanity Fair NORAD article:

DU thread here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2430045

[Dover]

33. I'm equally baffled as to why the msm didn't follow up investigation

of obvious leads and a million loose ends. The media itself needs to answer.

[elehhhhna]

161. Ask the media, then. Write 'em c/o Rupert Murdoch.

lol

[babylonsister]

34. What a bombshell! nt

[Melody Watson]

38. not shocked at all!

I was one of those 10%ers that still disapproved of bushco immediately after 9/11. Thanks largely impart to Noam Chomsky and Manufactured Consent, however. After the 2000 election the Screw York Times and the corporate meida were on my shit list.

Fight any election system that is not auditable.

[Erika]

37. Total incompetence

Total incompetence.

[rman]

75. "deception" is by definition deliberate - not incompetence

[John Q. Citizen]

77. More like criminal conspiracy. n/t

[Mnemosyne]

110. If it was "incompetence", than why was

NO ONE FIRED! :shrug:

[Canuckistanian]

41. So Transportation and NORAD stories didn't match?

They didn't even have have their timings right:

Maj. Gen. Larry Arnold and Col. Alan Scott told the commission that NORAD had begun tracking United 93 at 9:16 a.m., but the commission determined that the airliner was not hijacked until 12 minutes later. The military was not aware of the flight until after it had crashed in Pennsylvania.

[Karmakaze]

60. Could the two different timelines still be true?

Maybe NORAD WAS tracking Flt 93 12 minutes before it was "hijacked". Of course if that was the case NORAD would need to do some extremely fast talking to explain WHY.

One of the main arguments against "conspiracy theories" is the claim that too many people would know, and they would therefore talk, giving the whole game away. My rebuttal of that claim is that in fact very few people have to know what exactly is going on, the rest just follow orders to do strange things.

For example, controllers at NORAD are told to monitor some commercial flight - they are not told why, and they don't ask. They simply monitor the aircraft giving updates to their superiors. Later the logs etc come out and you get this anomolous timeline that shows the controllers tracking an aircraft BEFORE it is hijacked.

This is what compartmentalised security is all about - lots of people know a small part of the big picture, but they have no idea what that big picture is, and often don't even know there IS a big picture. All they know is they were told to do something and they did it. They don't connect it with other strange occurances because they never even hear about them. Not until it is way too late, and by then they are accomplices to what happened, and thus have a very good reason to accept ANY explanation that leaves their concience clear.

So it is far easier, even for them, to accept that NORAD timelines are wrong, rather than to accept that they seemingly played a role in treason.

[Canuckistanian]

132. Excellent reasoning

And another reason we don't have people coming forward is that this subject has officially become relegated to the CT crowd.

And it's become chic in journalistic circles to play up on the kooks and ignore the very serious investigators who are asking perfectly reasonable questions.

So no one wants to painted with that broad brush.

[rman]

80. This was pointed out by a guy in Congress or the Senate

during some sort of hearing at the time. He was ignored.

[elehhhhna]

163. THey probably DID track it at 9:16. That's wen the 'jackers sat down

and their BA-issued GPS transmitted the A-Okay













only half-joking, btw

[Canuckistanian]

180. Excellent

We're right on schedule..

[Corgigal]

42. Can someone, anyone

check the NORAD scope for that day? Can they also collect landline communication between the FAA and DOJ. Everything is time stamped and just put the pieces together. I remember that Air Traffic Controller from the center begging NORAD to respond. What time was that call made?

They can put up planes for private jet aircraft with incapacitate golf pros but no response for a commercial aircraft? Over and over again. Not buying it.

[elehhhhna]

165. pm Paul Thompson upthread. If anyone knows it's him.

[MAX 1]

43. The Long and Short of It All....

Events of 9/11 lacked some clarity and explaination from this commission. As stated many times so far, things were bungled, facts distorted, stonewalled, and mislead. Yet this commission didnt see it necessary ENOUGH to approach this activity as actually being criminal? WHAT WAS THIS COMMISSION ALL ABOUT THEN??? Daily tea parties?

There ARE legitimate questions that do deserve to be asked and America deserves an answer.

~ 441 days passed before the President initiated an investigation, AND THEN only after a lawsuit was filed. What took so long to get the ball rolling?

~ Emma E. Booker Elementary.
09/11/01
This was a publicized event. In fact, it was a big deal in Florida. The press had been invited to Emma Booker Elementary to watch the President and the kids read. It was announced almost a week prior. In fact, the White House had a press engagement already scheduled to occur at 9:30am that Tuesday from the school. Scheduled the day prior to be broadcast live, across the Nation.

IF we are to believe the reports of that day, the President was aware of the first plane strike BEFORE he went to the children. The second plane strike minutes later after sitting with the children. Andy Card's own report says he said to the President that, "America was under attack." Shortly after, the President prepared a statement for the public. Bush delivered it on time (9:30am) his address to the Nation, "America was under attack." His motorcade left Emma Booker Elementary at 9:34am, the Pentagon was struck minutes later.

The guard of the President is the Secret Service. Their role is to guard and protect the President at all costs. To ensure that ALL locations are secure both prior to arrival and during. The S.S. ARE the first line of defense for the President during times of immediate and imminent crisis, like an attack on the Nation.

IF we are to believe the events of that day, then we are to believe that the S.S. had the interests of the Nation in hand and were acting to protect the President, at all costs. However, the S.S. did know prior to Bush finishing the reading session, that multiple planes may have been hijacked, and the President was informed shortly there after.

IF there was a suspicion of multiple planes being hijacked, one of which was not responding to Air Traffic Control:

HOW DID THE SS KNOW THAT THE PRESIDENT WAS SAFE IN HIS PRESENT LOCATION?

WHY DID THE SS FEEL THAT LEAVING THE PRESIDENT IN A PUBLICIZED LOCATION WAS THE BEST SAFETY MANEUVER?

HOW WAS THE SS TO GUARANTEE THE SAFETY OF THE PRESIDENT KNOWING THAT MULTIPLE PLANES HAD BEEN HIJACKED BY DOING NOTHING?

Many people point out that maybe they didn't want to frighten the children.

THEN WHY PROP THEM UP AS THE BACKDROP TO THIS GRAVE ANNOUNCEMENT, SCHEDULED LIVE, ON NATIONAL TEE VEE?

Impact, perhaps?

For those that doubt the critical thought, keep in mind that just moments after the second plane strike on the WTC, the Vice President was rushed into a bunker for protection by the S.S. These two events DO NOT square with each other and cause those that use critical deduction to conclude that somehow, the S.S had knowledge that Bush was safe in his public location that was publicized for the entire week previous. How did they know this?

~ Who has ever, EVER been cited for their poor performance on the job that day? No air traffic controller, NORAD, FBI, CIA, or superiors have EVER been held accountable for their poor performance that culminated in the deaths of 3000 people. WHY NOT?

It is unacceptable to think that those that are in a position to provide the Nation it's protections and that fail to carry out their jobs faithfully, do not get a reprimand. This IS why border security ONLY became an issue AFTER the immigration issue was raised by the GOP running Congress. That was more than FOUR YEARS LATER.

~ Why is the only, ONLY video(stop motion film) of the Pentagon strike missing frames? Why is that film dated Sept, 12, 2001? And the Military time set at 5:20(?)PM? And why is this the BEST film/video/security system our DoD can buy on a budget that allows them to hyper-compute millions of bits of data that they mine from the American people's private information, obtained through our phone records, E-mails, and bank records. And is this the best that the DoD can buy while they have video cameras that they attach to drones they fly over our borders or computer systems that take ultra high resolution pictures of people from MILES in space?

Shamelessly so, their stop motion film that they gave us as "The OFFICIAL film" of the Pentagon strike SHOWS NO PLANE at all. Instead, what it does is instill that TRUST element that the Government wants the American people to keep on believing in. It is the same element that has allowed the President to grab all this power that he does. It is the same "TRUST US" element that dictates to the American people that Congress must be right, that they ARE working on our behalf and doing their job faithfully, looking out for our rights, in this 'TIME OF WAR'.

~ Yes, Three buildings were hit, TWO by jumbo planes caught on film, the third by a Unidentified Flying Object(UFO). Yes, several buildings subsequently collapsed due to FIRE alone, never to be repeated before or after. A one in a MILLION anomaly. That the ONLY EVER three steel buildings to collapse from fire happened to occur on the same day. Who can do the odds on this? You stand to win the LOTTO before this EVER can be repeated. And Shanksville, no plane crash ever has spread it's debris over an 8 mile area, unless it broke up in mid air first.

==================================================
Those that ignore history are doomed to repeat it.
==================================================

PNAC called it a catalyzing event. A "New Pearl Harbor."
But this was not a new idea. There have been MANY false flag operation perpetrated upon mankind. Some to wage war(CHECK), some to gain power(CHECK), and some to over throw political ideologies(CHECK). 9/11 gave all of that to the GOP and especially the Neoconservatives, who's global hegemony doctrine is one that simply states, "Don't mess with the USA."

This is why we are in Afghanistan, Iraq, threatening Syria and Iran, North Korea, and backing Israel air strikes on Lebanon. This is why we accept the dictatorship of Pakistan and their ability to AIDE and ABED the "EVIL DOERS".

It is why we have the implementation OF the Patriot Act. A duplicate of Hitler's "Enabling Act."

The collection of data on the populace of America is the seed of DARPA. This seed was planted long ago. Before there were terrorists attacking our soil. And while you contemplate this remember, the REASONS given are because of the terror attacks of 9/11. ON OUR SOIL. And to prevent further attacks, therefore making us more secure.

Rationalize it in your mind, if you will. Collection of data PRE-9/11 versus justification of the collection of data POST-9/11.

PRE-9/11 there was no REASON, and with no reason for the vast collection data, people might get worried and Congress might enforce oversight.

POST-9/11, the Government gives Americans a reason to worry - TERRORISTS - and look, people willingly give up information, securities, and Liberties through their blind faith and trust in a system that has them by the balls.

And finally, remember, the terrorists want to inflict as much damage to American Principles, Freedoms and Liberties. Similarly, Congress gives the terrorists what they want; The erosion OF our Bill of Rights.

I would suggest that EVERYONE watch a film called Don't be a Sucker. Produced in 1947 by the US War Department. This film explores exactly what is happening here in America. Funny and sad that the insight we had back in 1947 can not be utilized today. America is becoming exactly what America loathed and fought against over 60 years ago. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VLbqt99YVA&search=Fascism

[babylonsister]

48. Wow, MAX 1. Where have you been, and welcome to DU!

Thanks for this great contribution!

[grasswire]

50. good post, thanks...

...and welcome to DU.

[Nostradammit]

72. Welcome, Max 1 ~ n/t

[Twist_U_Up]

79. Welcome aboard Max

Have you checked out the September 11 forum yet ?

:hi:

[mogster]

86. Amazing post, and that movie nails it - welcome! n/t

[Eurobabe]

90. My bullshit detector went off the scope when this Vanity Fair article said

"The order (for shoot down) will need to come from President Bush, who has only just learned of the attack at a photo op in Florida." Somewhere in the article they made it sound like Bu$h was in the desert somewhere, and not one of the S.S. or anyone had a cell phone -- no one knew about the WTC crash.

I'm sorry but DimWit's face says it all...We hit the TRIFECTA. Hot damn, I didn't think we could pull it off.

[Lochloosa]

100. Excellent Post Max 1and thanks for stating the oh so obvious.

When will people open their eyes to the PNAC?

And Welcome to DU. I look forward to reading more of your post. Keep 'em coming.

[Boxerfan]

120. Great post Max1!!....The SS not swooping on B*sh after 2nd plane hit

Is a total reverse of protocal & very very telling.
I'm into metal & after I saw WTC 7 fall I knew...I effin knew...

[stevietheman]

130. Think about it

"THEN WHY PROP THEM UP AS THE BACKDROP TO THIS GRAVE ANNOUNCEMENT, SCHEDULED LIVE, ON NATIONAL TEE VEE?

Impact, perhaps?"

For a clue as to how fascists think, consider this idea...

The children will be entirely safe once freedom is entirely destroyed.

[leveymg]

137. "Don't Be A Sucker" Deserves Its Own Thread.

Thank you for showing us that. Along with "Why We Fight" (Capra's WW2 masterpiece done for the War Office), this is still a must-see.

[Mind_your_head]

153. Yes, I agree "Don't be a Sucker" deserves it's own thread

Is "Why We Fight" online somewhere or must it be rented/purchased?

[tbyg52]

154. If you'd like to download it:

http://www.archive.org/details/DontBeaS1947

[QuettaKid]

138. Excellent Post ! ! ! KUDOS.

and welcome to DU.

[Tight_rope]

158. WOW!...Where have to been MAX! Welcome to DU!

[elehhhhna]

168. Did you notice that Butch's schedule on 911 still went off like CLOCKWORK

coincidence!

[HamdenRice]

202. Nice post! Welcome to DU ... visit the dungeon sometime nt

[Miss Chybil]

205. Great video! Thanks for the link and welcome to DU! nt

[LuckyLib]

214. What struck me immediately on 9/11 and underscored Bush's

position as a puppet was his reaction while in the midst of a school visit. That a Prez didn't stop everything, announce that there was an emergency, and leave immediately said it all. The Chimp couldn't even muster the presence of mind to see that a school visit doesn't even occupy thinking space when something of this caliber has occurred. The charade of staying there "for the kids" is bullshit. As an educator, I was floored that he hadn't bolted out of there to find out what was really happening.

[Bolo Boffin]

220. You are not the only one. n/t

[Name removed]

241. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tanyev]

255. Or why the visit wasn't cancelled outright.

The first plane had already hit before he went in to the school.

[Megahurtz]

242. Excellent Post!!!

:applause:

[Kailassa]

279. How about an insanely scary ridiculous theory?

Shrub's minders were not keeping him there because they knew the school would be safe.

They were under orders from somebody with more power than Shrub, who wanted him there,
amongst a sweet bunch of baby human shields, so they all could be killed by a hijacked plane.
(Or something made out to be one.)

A creche was the focus of the Oklahoma bombing, and I had always wondered why
no bunch of children had been targeted this time.

I find it hard to believe that anyone in power has ever had any fondness for that idiot-bully.
However, as a sacrificial lamb, along with those children, he would have served a "useful" purpose.
Cheney could have grabbed the "reign", and steered America into his Machiavellian abyss
far more quickly than Shrub has been able to do.

If someone did stop that, who could have, and how did they die?

Of course this is just an idle nightmare, utterly without foundation.
Nobody could imagine the Cabal planning this .... could they?

[TankLV]

293. Because the number one instruction to the "commission" was NOT to "assign

blame"...

It was explicitly stated in their organizational papers, along with allowing absolutely NO TESTIMONY UNDER OATH by bush* and cheney or most members of the WAR CRIMINALS staff...

[SupplyConcerns]

<deleted duplicate post>

It hasn't been deliberate self-deception or anything that's led me to believe MIHOP. It's just that all of the credible evidence points in that direction.

[SupplyConcerns]

45. It feels like so long ago that I believed the official story

It hasn't been deliberate self-deception or anything that's led me to believe MIHOP. It's just that all of the credible evidence points in that direction.

[grasswire]

46. goddam infuriating

The last two paragraphs

John F. Lehman, a Republican commission member and former Navy secretary, said in a recent interview that he believed the panel may have been lied to but that he did not believe the evidence was sufficient to support a criminal referral.

"My view of that was that whether it was willful or just the fog of stupid bureaucracy, I don't know," Lehman said. "But in the order of magnitude of things, going after bureaucrats because they misled the commission didn't seem to make sense to me."

[babylonsister]

52. Weak at best, probably criminal.

"...going after bureaucrats because they misled the comission?" The whole point of the damn commission was to get to the truth!:grr:

[leesa]

141. Nope. Remember, Bush specifically told them he didn't want them to

find or assign any blame. They were to simply prevent it from happening again.

[Rex]

51. NORAD lied and now the move out of Cheyenne mountain.

Cheney needs to fill it in with cement. Don't need future generations wandering around look for clues. It is 2006 and it took 5 years for them to get bold? Some timing.

[BrightKnight]

55. 700 mil to upgrade NORAD + NORTHCOM upgrade costs

Somebody is rolling in the dough.

[Rex]

59. No bid contract for KBR and hush-hush money offshore.

Life is good without the Davis-Bacon Act, just gotta kill it off in a few more states. Well, life for a corporate pirate who loves making money off death and misery.

[Eurobabe]

91. Lemme guess, begins with an H or K and ends with....

eom

[earth mom]

54. Great News... except I can't help wondering...Why Now?

I'd bet that the corporate media has long known that the official 9/11 story hasn't added up. So why are they now ready to break it wide open? Is it a declaration that the party is over? Or is it a warning to the powers that be?

I want to be jumping for joy over this story, but somehow it leaves me with an uneasy feeling.

I really hope my gut feeling is wrong...

[Poll_Blind]

57. KICK...BIG KICK! n/t

PB

[Peace Patriot]

64. "...one of those loose ends that never got tied up..."

Talk about bureaucrats.

--------------------------

Here's a juicy bit from the middle....

"Maj. Gen. Larry Arnold and Col. Alan Scott told the commission that NORAD had begun tracking United 93 at 9:16 a.m., but the commission determined that the airliner was not hijacked until 12 minutes later. The military was not aware of the flight until after it had crashed in Pennsylvania.

"These and other discrepancies did not become clear until the commission, forced to use subpoenas, obtained audiotapes from the FAA and NORAD, officials said. The agencies' reluctance to release the tapes -- along with e-mails, erroneous public statements and other evidence -- led some of the panel's staff members and commissioners to believe that authorities sought to mislead the commission and the public about what happened on Sept. 11.

"'I was shocked at how different the truth was from the way it was described,' John Farmer, a former New Jersey attorney general who led the staff inquiry into events on Sept. 11, said in a recent interview. 'The tapes told a radically different story from what had been told to us and the public for two years. . . . This is not spin. This is not true.'"

--------------------------

This is not spin. This is not true.

--------------------------

To those who are glad that this is "hitting the MSM" (and who thus empower the war profiteering corporate shitheads who control the so-called "news" to portray themselves as "the mainstream"), had better think twice about WHY things "hit the (false acronym) MSM."

These are the people who brought you the Iraq War, the 2004 (s)election, and--SOON TO BE A MAJOR MOTION PICTURE--WW III. Things that might cause Jr. to blink too much don't hit the "MSM" by accident.

Analyze! Analyze!

Something BIGGER is about to be revealed, and WaPo is in charge of "managing" the story for the WH--they are doing damage control.

My guess: That obscure AF/air controller whistleblower we've all been waiting for, lo, these many years, has finally come forward. Why else would the commission embarrass itself like this? (--maybe forced by staffers, but why would they suddenly decide to speak, and why would their view suddenly be permitted to come out?)

Or, something big is about to happen on a different front. Either something big will be made to happen, to slam this to the backpages; or they're going to announce a military Draft to invade Iran with, and they'd rather we talk about 9/11 than that (lesser of two evils). (EIGHTY-FOUR PERCENT of the American people oppose any U.S. participation in a widened Mideast war.)

-----------------------

I favor the first--something bigger about to be revealed about 9/11--mainly because of a another part of the WaPo story. Here it is:

"In the end, the panel agreed to a compromise, turning over the allegations to the inspectors general for the Defense and Transportation departments, who can make criminal referrals if they believe they are warranted, officials said.

(snip)

"A Pentagon spokesman said yesterday that the inspector general's office will soon release a report addressing whether testimony delivered to the commission was 'knowingly false.' A separate report, delivered secretly to Congress in May 2005, blamed inaccuracies in part on problems with the way the Defense Department kept its records, according to a summary released yesterday.

"A spokesman for the Transportation Department's inspector general's office said its investigation is complete and that a final report is being drafted. Laura Brown, a spokeswoman for the Federal Aviation Administration, said she could not comment on the inspector general's inquiry.

"In an article scheduled to be on newsstands today, Vanity Fair magazine reports aspects of the commission debate -- though it does not mention the possible criminal referrals -- and publishes lengthy excerpts from military audiotapes recorded on Sept. 11. ABC News aired excerpts last night."

----------------------

Cover up of the cover up--in progress.

The Pentagon will "SOON RELEASE A REPORT"? -and-

The Transportation Department's "final" report is only just now "BEING DRAFTED"?

And what drivel are these "Rip Van Winkle" reports going to shovel at us NOW?

Also, Vanity Fair is on the case.

WaPo snipes at Vanity Fair, of course--"they didn't get the 'criminal referrals' part, neeyah, neeyah, ne, neeyah, neeyah!!!" (sticking out their tongues). But LENGTHY excerpts are coming out in Vanity Fair--for close analysis by DUers 9/11 freaks I'm sure. (And us election fraud freaks will be very envious, cuz OUR stuff is tied up in the RFK Jr. lawsuit against Diebold & brethren for 60 days.)

What did ABC News air? I didn't catch that.

Sounds like the "commission" had a devilish choice--deliver their suspicions to Alberto "torture memo" Gonzales (or was it John "planes fall out the sky" Ashcroft? --it's been so long), or to Donald "freedom = the freedom to loot" Rumsfeld.

TIME-FRAME. TIME-FRAME!

This "debate" occurred in "summer of 2004." JUST BEFORE THE ELECTION. So THAT'S why it didn't go to the Justice Department. Gonzales was brought in last year, right? As reward for the torture cover. So it would have been Ashcroft--but with no special prosecutor or anything. Just routine circular filing. Still, it might have gotten into the hands of some pissed off FBI agents (or Fitzgerald, or one of his Grand Juries--Comey was still there). The "debate" was apparently heated. The staffers and some commissioners wanted blood. The COMPROMISE was give it to the Pentagon and the Dept. of Transportation--the MISCREANTS! This may be why the staffers have pushed this into the public venue NOW. How could they think they'd get justice out of ANY of these jokers? No reports from them--after two years!!! Now, suddenly they're doing reports. And this is a hoot: The Pentagon delivered a "secret" report to (Bush's "pod people" in) Congress, claiming it was a records keeping problem.

Yeah, like, who keeps track of Donald Rumsfeld's whereabouts? A records keeping problem. Ha!

But, on the timing: Staffers' revenge? We're pre-election again, and they were just not going to tolerate ANOTHER politically convenient delay?? And they threatened to reveal the REAL reason that the "commission" avoided a criminal investigation the first time around--as leverage to get it out now??

Something's cooking on this, for sure.

We have the NYT suppressing info on Bush domestic spying, pre-election 2004. And the 9/11 "commission" suppressing THIS, pre-election 2004. And everybody and his brother in the lapdog press and the Republican and Democratic Parties suppressing the fraudulent election system that Diebold/ES&S was putting into place, pre-election 2004, Edison-Mitofsky suppressing the real exit poll data on election day, and everybody and his brother etc. placing an "Iron Curtain" over the election fraud story AFTER the election. All to insure that Bush gets (s)elected, and that the American people, a) don't know squat about some of the stuff he's doing or about massive malfeasance on 9/11, and b) don't know that all their votes are being "counted" by Bush's buds at Diebold/ES&S, on extremely insider hackable voting machines, run on TRADE SECRET, PROPRIETARY programming code, with virtually no audit/recount controls.

It's like the entire corporate/political establishment conspired to keep Dingbat and his Puppetmasters in the White House. And all this, to prosecute an insane war in the Middle East--which could well be the LAST war that human beings have fun killing people in (such an endearing species we are)? TO WHAT END? Occupying the entire Middle East? But that's......nuts.

[vickitulsa]

174. I stopped using "MSM" some time ago, and thought DUers had

recognized the need to transition to calling them something else that's ACCURATE. I often see (and use) "corporate media" or CT here now, though the "MSM" misnomer or misacronym is taking awhile to make an exit.

CT works for you, right, PP? I thought of a term I like even better -- "bought media" or BM! haha

I would like to FLUSH the entire evil enterprise once known as "the press" or "the media" that's been providing cover for the BFEE and PNAC and all the other rotten-assed groups and shadow organizations for way way too long.

I remember my mom saying once, about ten or 15 years ago, when I was complaining about some new crappy legislation Congress had just passed, that "we ought to just wipe all the laws off the books and start all over again." I had to laugh -- what else could I do? But in a way her comment pointed up just what a MESS we've allowed things to get into and how difficult it will be to ever extract ourselves from it.

What DO we do?? I love reading posts like yours (always excellent and so informative) and Max's and many others here at DU who are so informed it makes my old head spin. But I have an ongoing battle with poverty to deal with on a very personal level, and that takes up most of my braintime these days. So I've pretty much focused my energies on what I see as the biggest of the big problems the country is facing, and that's election theft. I don't DO much to fight it because there's not much I CAN do, but I certainly talk about it to everyone I can get to listen. And more people ARE listening these days, which is encouraging.

IMO, it still seems that about the best thing many of us can do is to keep talking about all the high crimes and misdemeanors of this evil cabal in power in our country, using words that we know will be acceptable to our listeners, whoever they are, so they won't reject our ideas out of hand. But TALK ABOUT IT, and talk about it a LOT, right?

Because at some point as more and more evidence keeps coming to light, and even though so much remains hidden and secret, what happens is that the understanding that this criminal crowd has been lying to us repeatedly and stealing from us and abusing us in monstrous ways becomes "common knowledge" believed by a great majority of the population. And if we can get it to that point, we may have found a way to WIN this fight!

My biggest concern is that the PNACkers and Busheviks of all sorts are going to take us into more war in a big way before we can stop them. Their bloodlust and thirst for more power seems unquenchable.

Some days I wake up and just want to go back to sleep ... for a few YEARS~!

[John Q. Citizen]

66. The Pentagon, Norad, Air Traffic controllers, The commision, thier

staff, The Airlines, why literally hundreds of people had to be in on keeping this hushed up for all these years.

But, I thought I'd heard somewhere that such a big cover-up and conspiracy would be impossible.

Does this mean the 9/11 forum gets to emerge from the dungeon? (one of the little perks of a huge story perhaps)

Does this mean the Democratic Leadership will call for impeachment of the CIC and the VP?

Is this bigger than watergate?

[lapfog_1]

226. No, relatively few people would have to be "in on it"

I think it could be limited to a dozen or so, in the right places.

How do you get them in the exact right place... well if the SecDef and VP are two of the one to two dozen, placement gets to be a lot easier.

[wiley]

68. Keane's son is running for Senate.

Big Tom had better get his ass out there right quick and in a hurry. He knew this and said nothing? He referred it to the * justice department? Wouldn't want Big Slime to damage little slime's chances at a Senate seat. Not that the people of New Jersey are that stupid. They are so over the Repuke lying BS.

[Phrogman]

70. That should be CNN's breaking news, but it wont be...

e0m

[me b zola]

71. Bush* & Cheney refused to testify under oath

So Mr. Leham, are they just stupid bureaucrats too?


:grr: :nuke: :grr: :nuke:




I wonder how the 911 families will feel about this sham of an investigation?

[tbyg52]

157. Really angry, I hope...

..because they are probably the only ones who can get it plastered all over the MSM.

[XelKarin]

73. Interesting...

The media seem to be getting a bit of courage. Of course, they aren't asking the big questions many people are thinking, but instead try to brush it off as cover up for incompetence. But wasn't the pentagon's initial excuse bureaucratic incompetence, and then some officials got raises for it? So now it turns out their initial story was a lie and it's played like it was a cover up of bureaucratic incompetence all along. The excuse just became the fault. Fishy that.

[chill_wind]

76. Meanwhile, the Pentagon IG post has sat vacant for almost a year, was it?

After Schmitz took off for hire at mercenary Blackwater USA.? (How's that for bad appearances?)

But "appearances" would have only gotten worse had he stayed.

ePluribus Media:

"Joseph E. Schmitz, son of John G. Schmitz, the fiercely conservative former congressman from Orange County, is the Inspector General at the Pentagon. He is leaving the Dept. of Defense under a dark cloud of investigation over whether or not he has blocked other investigations of senior Bush officials."


A good write-up here

http://scoop.epluribusmedia.org/story/2005/9/12/17759/1566


But now for the really good news about Bush's favorite new guy for the job waiting on deck:

:sarcasm:

Tuesday, June 06, 2006
Bush Nominates G.O.P. "Cleaner" As Pentagon I.G.

http://cernigsnewshog.blogspot.com/2006/06/bush-nominates-gop-cleaner-as-pentagon.html

Don't hold our collective breath for that Senate Intel Phase II report, either, for perhaps way longer than November, even.

[readmoreoften]

82. NOW it's all clear! The whole thing was just bungled, not sinister motives

It was all just a big mistake. :sarcasm:

So why was NORAD getting such convoluted information? Where was this information coming from? The FAA? So let's get on their asses and see what comes up.

It'd also be cool if they showed that video of the pentagon taken from the gas station. Or, hell, released all the videos. Why not? It's not like we've never seen a plane crash into a building before.

Guess what, the American people already figured out that they'd bungled the situation. Four buildings were destroyed. (Well, three and a part of a building.)

[Mnpaul]

85. Unbelievable testimony - Mark Dayton asks why?

“ It is a profoundly disturbing report because…of the utter failure to defend them by their federal government, by their leaders, and the institutions that were entrusted to do so and because of serious discrepancies between the facts that you've set forth and what was told to the American people, to members of Congress, and to your own Commission by those, some of those authorities.

”According to your report the first of the four airliner hijackings occurred on September 11th at 8:14 Eastern time. At 10:03 AM, almost two hours later, an hour and forty-nine minutes to be exact, the fourth and last plane crashed before reaching its intended target…During those entire 109 minutes to my reading of this report this country and its citizens were completely undefended.

According to your findings, FAA authorities failed to the inform military command, NORAD, the North American Aerospace Defense Command, about three of the four hijackings until after the planes had crashed into their targets at the second World Trade Center, the Pentagon, and the ground in Penn Sylvia...

plane struck the second World Trade tower…] It was five more minutes before NORAD's mission commander learned about that explosion; which was five minutes after thousands - probably millions - of Americans saw it on live television. By this time the third plane's transponder was off; communication had been severed, yet it was fifteen minutes before the flight controller decided to notify the regional FAA center which in turn did not inform FAA headquarters for another fifteen minutes.

..........

Command center - 'Uh, do we want to, uh, think about scrambling aircraft?'

FAA headquarters - 'Oh God, I don't know.'

Command center - 'Uh, that's a decision somebody's going to have to make probably in the next 10 minutes.'

FAA headquarters - 'Uh, yeah, you know, everybody just left the room."
http://www.willthomas.net/911/911_Stand_Down.htm

What should we do? what should we do? Let's leave and do nothing. Unbelievable

[DoYouEverWonder]

87. So it was all a lie

Can I take off my tinfoil hat now?

[GeronimoSkull]

88. Poll: 1 in 3 Americans suspects 9/11 inside job

http://www.gnn.tv/headlines/10263/Poll_Third_of_Americans_suspect_9_11_inside_job

[Jeanette in FL]

89. It's been a long time coming

On Sept. 11th, 2001, one of our construction jobs adjacent to the Palm Beach Airport was abruptly shut down. My husband called me and asked "What the hell is going on". I told him that we were under attack and explained what was happening. I immediately said to him "Either "they" did this, meaning the gov't or heads are going to roll.

Well since no heads rolled, it left me with only one conclusion.

Glad this is finally coming to the surface, the whole 911 commission was a joke. First, Bush had to be dragged kicking and screaming to form a commission and then he put Henry Kissinger in charge. Well thankfully the people objected firmly against him, so they put together the commission we got. There were so many obvious questions during the hearing that were never asked.

[Justice Is Comin]

94. It's an interesting coincidence that C-Span is

giving so much replay airtime to the 911 conspiracy symposium too. Ordinarily that would have been given as much coverage by C-Span as alien abductions.

Some screws are definitely tightening somewhere.

[chill_wind]

219. My same thoughts.

It was on again last eve around the dinner hour ET.


I was thinking to myself, by the time they are done, everybody who was ever a frequent C-Span viewer/surfer will finally have seen this. This is *good*, but the fact of it getting this much repetition is also very interesting all by itself.

I do know they re-air their programming, but how many times has this re-aired now since just the weekend? I'm curious.

[Justice Is Comin]

234. I know that it has been on at least 4 times already

and that isn't including the original airing if there was a broadcast on the taping date of the event.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

95. concurrent thread with interesting stuff! Don't miss. nt

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2430045

[Ian David]

96. Finally, someone may expose the REAL conspiracies of 9/11...

And it's going to involve complicity in cover-ups of incompetence, and perhaps... MAYBE... complicity before the fact.

But now, because people have come to associate "9/11 conspiracies" with "Invisible Jewish Elves"(TM) planting explosives and robot-piloted planes, the public is going to have a hard time separating these REAL conspiracies from the stupid ones some people have been spewing.

My personal assessment of the likeliness of various 9/11 conspiracies:

1) Cover-ups of Incompetence- 100%
2) Cover-ups of Willful Negligence before the fact (LIHOP) 90%
3) Cover-ups of Deliberate Complicity before the fact (MIHOP)- 80%
4) Shoot-down of the plane in Pennsylvania before crash- 3%
5) Detonation of WTC 7 Building- 1%
6) Invisible Jewish Elves(TM) planting explosives in the Twin Towers- 0.001%
7) Outlandish new technologies doing amazing things like making fake jet planes- 0.0001%
8) Dick Cheney used a Time Machine to personally pilot the terrorist planes- 0.0001%

Of course, when we go out and start talking about #1, #2 and #3, they'll just discredit us by saying, "Oh, those crazy 9/11 conspiracy theorists also say that Robot Planes From The Future(TM) hit the towers, too."

[QuettaKid]

99. Been MIHOP since first seeing WTC-7.net.

Glad to see the truth might actually come out in my lifetime. That is if the next "terror" attack doesn't derail everything and the chimp just comes right out declares himself leader for life.

[Ian David]

102. I think that any MIHOP or LIHOP conspiracy is more likely to be...

... more like "All The President's Men" and less like "The Spy Who Loved Me."

I don't think it's likely to involve Invisible Jewish Elves(TM) setting explosives, or Robot Planes From The Future(TM).

If you were going to make a movie about it, you'd mostly be following Robert Redford and Dustin Hoffman around as they examine bank records and documents. They wouldn't be crawling through wreckage or breaking into research laboratories.

In other words, it's going to involve a break-in at an embassy to collect documents used in the Niger forgery, followed by a whole lot of "follow the money." It would be a pretty slow-paced and cerebral movie

[QuettaKid]

104. Hey, as long as the movie ends with bush-cheney

sitting in a cell in the Hague, it works for me!

[Ian David]

106. I think Cheney will shoot himself in the face by "accident" while fishing

Yes, in my movie, Cheney hunts fish with a shotgun.

[leesa]

144. The "robot planes from the future" are technology that exists right now

It's a pity you don't do your research. Try Dov Zacheim

[Ian David]

196. I watch The Science Channel. I know they can remotely pilot a jumbo jet

I will cop to presenting the Robot Planes From The Future(TM) as a straw-man to hold up for ridicule and to make a dramatic point-- from the future or not, it's a silly and mean-spirited "theory."

There's really no doubt that those planes were hijacked by people.

To those who believe the Robot Planes From The Future(TM) Theory, find the phone number of the survivors of the 9/11 victims who were on those planes, and tell them that when their loved-ones called to say goodbye from the planes, they were lying.

It's okay.

Ann Coulter says they enjoy the deaths of their loved ones.

Call them and say, "When your daddy called from the plane and said there were terrorists on board, he lied. In fact, I don't think your daddy was on the plane. I think he's safe and sound, having a good time in the Secret Government Base, Hoagland City, at Cydonia on Mars. Your daddy must have hated you."

There sure were an awful lot of ordinary men, women and children willing to lie to their families that day, weren't there? Amazing! Must have something to do with Robot Planes From The Future!(TM)

Only people from The Future could have pulled all those evil, lying, men women and children off the planes and replaced them with robots!

While you're at it, call the families of Gus Grissom, Ed White, Roger Chaffee, and Michael J. Adams, and tell them that those men died as part of a hoax to make it appear we landed on the moon. That is, if they REALLY died. They could all be on Mars, too!

[John Q. Citizen]

171. So your CT is,

85% (combined odds) chance LIHOP or MIHOP then they just lucked out and brought down three buildings the same day due to fires? So you think they never planned to bring the buildings down, just to stick some planes in 'em full as possible with jet fuel? And building 7 was just coincidental collateral damage?

They purposely hit the Pentagon where the least damage could occur?


But they definitely wouldn't use explosives in the buildings or drone planes? No way?

Well, maybe.

[Ian David]

191. Do you think Invisible Jewish Elves(TM) spent days skulking around...

carefully planting explosive charges in the Twin Towers, just in case hitting them with fully-loaded jet planes didn't pack enough "oomph"?

Why don't you email The Mythbusters and ask them to stage an experiment where they hit a skyscraper with a jumbo jet and see what happens?

I will concede, though that the demolition of Building 7 seems just a little suspicious. But I'm not a expert in demolition, don't play one on television, and didn't even sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night.

And my "gut feeling" is that Bush knew in advance about the attack on New York, but that the planes headed for Washington were a surprise to him. That's the impression I got after watching his goat-whacked moments-- that he was nervous, but prepared for it.

I would bet money on LIHOP.

I'd also bet money (not as much money, though) that somebody in the administration was involved in MIHOP- activities involving funneling money, arranging visas, gathering intelligence, and sharing with them exactly what they needed to do to get away with it.

I would also bet money that someone in the administration was involved in covering-up either LIHOP or MIHOP activities. Destroying the Air Traffic Controller tapes... getting the Bin Laden family out of the country on private jets, etc.

I'm also a little suspicious of the NORAD activities, and whether or not it was part of a MIOP plan.

I think stuff like that is worth investigating. But I think relying upon physicists who believe a great prophet read magical runes out a hat just makes us look silly. Next, we'll be asking Tom Cruise to evaluate the psychological state of the hijackers.

[AntiFascist]

209. The more intriguing CT involves...

certain art student agents shadowing the hijackers.

[Ian David]

221. I think I missed that one. Enlighten me? n/t

[AntiFascist]

243. I thought I was responding to your post, please see my post directly below

[Name removed]

239. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ian David]

247. Link? n/t

[AntiFascist]

250. I hope I don't get in trouble since we're not supposed to link to....

"conspiracy" sites, particularly this one-

and if you don't like wmr then you should focus on the referenced material, not so much the editorial comments:

waynemadsenreport dot com slash Artstudents.htm

[Ian David]

262. What a total waste of fucking time. Thanks for nothing,

Stupid piece of shit "Invisible Jewish Elves" crap.

Pure genius... NOT!

[Ian David]

263. I'm going to save myself some time and just put you on ignore

Obviously, you're not part of the reality-based community.

[BrokenBeyondRepair]

269. "reality-based community"

are you referring to those that insisted that government complicity and cover-up was a crazy concept not worthy of discussion? Can always count them for objectivity</sarcasm>

looking forward to watching the "reality-based community" insist that they knew all along… sheep are predictable

[Ian David]

270. I've already said I believe our government was involved in conspiracies...

involving 9/11.

I believe some of the conspiracies. That doesn't mean I have to believe ALL of them.

DUer: The government engaged in a cover-up conspiracy to hide their incompetence after 9/11.
Other Guy: That's fascinating. Tell me more!
DUer: I think some government officials might have been involved in making it happen on purpose.
Other Guy: Realy? I'm very interested in hearing more.
DUer: Invisible Jewish Elves(TM) disguised as art students planted explosives in The World Trade Center.
Other Guy: Oh, I hate Jews, too! I'm so glad we can blame them for some of this. Tell me more!
DUer: Nobody was actually onboard those planes. They were empty and flown by remote control.
Other Guy: You're a fucking idiot.

[AntiFascist]

275. The use of the word "Jewish" is typical of the thinking....

that is prolonging hostilities in the Middle East. If the polls are correct, its really too bad that 80% of Israelis have bought into the type of thinking that anyone who is against any Israeli action must be against Jewish people as a whole. This is pure bullshit!

Certainly, there are neo-Nazi, anti-Semitic types, and supporters of terrorism who will jump on the opportunity to post their garbage on DU and elsewhere, but you are not making any friends if you try to throw everyone who is against the Israeli government's actions into that camp.

Where in my previous posts have I even used the word "Jewish"? The report cited does not refer to the Israeli art students as anything other than possible covert agents, presumably of a radical, right-wing faction within the Likud party. I'm sure that if these allegations are true, that they provided aid to the 9/11 hijackers, and if the mass majority of Israelis and Jewish populations around the world knew about their actions, then of course they would be condemned. The radical neocon factions within the Israeli government are no better and probably no worse than the same factions supporting US neocons, the majority of which are not Jewish.

[BrokenBeyondRepair]

288. indeed

[Name removed]

227. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[John Q. Citizen]

267. The paradox is that buildings don't fall straight down

(or nearly straight down) in a sequenced collapsed unless it's arraigned. Otherwise there wouldn't be a need for controlled demolition.

Three separate random events aren't going to produce that result. To believe otherwise is to either not be paying attention or to believe in ID science. (Intelligent Demolition. God did it)

As far as the religious beliefs of Dr. Jones (Mormon) I believe those who attempt to attack his physics work through his religious beliefs are silly and very counter productive to progressive causes.

Let's face facts. 3/4 or more of Americans believe a dead guy can come back to life after three days through divine intervention. To attack people who subscribe to this belief as a way to discredit them would require that you be posting in GD -politics that practically any and all political candidates somehow embarrass us because they claim to be Christian. Do you only accept the work of physicists who profess to be atheists? Now that would be silly.

[Options Remain]

109. this bodes poorly

if the theory is correct we have an administration that
stole two elections
murdered 3k new yorkers
volated laws as a matter of course
looted the treasury and charged up the national debt
waged wars for profit
and is spying on us

How can we possibly assume the concept they will surrender power peacefully?

[glitch]

155. Add: Deliberately let a major US city drown.

They won't.

[dkblogger]

197. Right ! And they lied over death toll from Katrina too !

I guess not wanting Nagin to be right in his prediction of how
many thousands dead, or to out-number 9/11... they kept true
death count low. D'Iberville Mississippi (just above Biloxi)
had 1,500 bodies to deal with after Katrina ! Most they said 
didn't come from there. My son was there soon after Katrina as
his city adopted the town to go help out. The mayor was
telling about it. To bad the MSM had no interest in telling
about it. Oh, and has anyone ever done a count of how many
people have died on the Bush watch ! 

[glitch]

204. Ain't that the truth and welcome to DU! nt

[elehhhhna]

184. Wake up. The United States Government has been overthrown.

[soothsayer]

105. Sadly, this will all be swept under the carpet. No one in congress

wants to investigate this, really, I'm afraid.

[mikita]

107. why hasn't this thread been banished? n/t

[QuettaKid]

113. this thread will not be banished. nt.

.

[seemslikeadream]

167. Some of the best stuff gets to stay in LBN

Bush's Erratic Behavior Worries White House Aides
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=602189

DoD Statement on Jack Shaw and the Iraq Telecommunications Contract
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=743997

Man Who Says He Predicted Sept. 11 Attacks Arrested
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=924780

Theologian calls for response to 9/11
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1406835

[usregimechange]

114. kick

[Virginia Dare]

115. What this tells me is that...

the 9/11 Commission report isn't worth the paper it's printed on. Will we ever get the FUCKING TRUTH?

:nuke:

[tomp]

140. yes, but then, we knew that already, didn't we? nt

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

116. And MSNBC has a top place lead about a GSA leader stealing cookie money

Now there's your hardhitting journalism!

I'm trying to see how this is breaking in the MSM

From the front page of MSNBC:
IN THE NEWS
• Tropical Storm Chris strengthens | Better forecasts
• In risky strategy, AOL makes most of its services free
• Report: Ford mulls alliances, shedding of luxury units
• 75 percent of obese people say they eat healthily
• Abreu helps Yanks to AL East lead | Sheffield to first?
• Girl Scout leader charged with stealing cookie money

No mention that I can see about this story.

[EVDebs]

178. Phoebe, please read post #177

This story is bigger than Dubai Ports. It goes straight into the WH, FAA, and DoD.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

238. I did. I'm shocked. I can't say that I have EVER heard of any of this

before. I think that our country has literally been sold and that's the long and short of it. We're just hanging around the empty circus tent while they're loading up the train.

[hang a left]

117. I remember watching the hearings and one of the Commission

members(can't remember which one)was questioning a General (can't remember which one) but he actually corrected his timeline right there during the proceedings. The jist of it is that the Commission Member was helping the General out. Anyone else remember this?? There was a couple of threads about it. If I could when it was I could do a search and find the thread.

Anyone remember this?

[flyarm]

186. I REMEMBER IT AND I WAS SCREAMING AT THE DAMN

commissioner ( at my tv actually!)..i was furious!!

fly

[hang a left]

208. fly

I spent this morning trying to find the June 2004 archives to find that thread everyone was talking on while watching that hearing. The archives aren't available right now. I sent a pm to the mods asking when they will be back up. When they are I will start a thread about it.

Take care now

[HamdenRice]

118. Does this mean that we who post in the 9/11 dungeon aren't nuts anymore?

The bullshit official story is falling apart, the rats are leaving the sinking ship, and those involved in the coverup are covering their asses.

So does that mean that the people who write in the 9/11 dungeon are no longer tinfoil hat conspiracy theory nut jobs anymore?

K&R

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

129. Who?

The people who are claiming that no planes hit the towers?

[Rude Horner]

134. Yeah, us 911 lihop/mihop'ers have been made to feel

like lepers for quite some time. Ya know...us and our crazy, whacko ideas. :crazy:

[truth2power]

136. Strange you would say that, Hamden..

As I'm waiting for this thread to load, (dial-up, ya' know) I'm muttering to myself about how those of us who KNEW the official story was C.R.A.P from the git-go were relegated to a dungeon so others wouldn't have to be inconvenienced by reading such piffle. Uh-huh.. x(

[glitch]

156. Beautiful minds find inconvient truths quite rude. ;) nt

[earth mom]

194. We tinfoilers deserve an apology from all the naysayers.

If not, they should at least post that they were wrong!

Except, where are they? Not a peep out of them on this thread is there?! :eyes:

WE TOLD YOU SO!!! :grr:

[HughBeaumont]

240. It must mean that there isn't anything wrong with us AFTER all!

From Day After ONE, I've been saying all along that this whole thing smells worse than the Lake Erie shoreline at low tide. For me, it was when Dan Rather announced that WTC 7 looked as if controlled demolition brought it down. On the first day, people were asking how four planes got hijacked at once and no one did ANYthing to stop it, not even over supposedly secure DC airspace and the fucking PENTAGON!!!

Did they REALLY think the people of this country have no bullshit detectors? Think again, Keebler!

[we can do it]

251. Thanks for saying that! n/t

[Hailtothechimp]

258. We were just ahead of the curve.

And now the blinders are coming off. For some, anyway.

[reprehensor]

119. THE PENTAGON NEVER LIES!

Ok, maybe sometimes.

But just for fascist-enabling events.

[EVDebs]

177. I'm amazed about the 'investigation' of Ptech/GoAgile in Boston

Excuse me for my flair for the obvious...

How much DID the FBI know about Ptech
http://cbs4boston.com/iteam/local_story_343145212.html

Ptech research
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/entity.jsp?id=1521846767-2254

and Dollars of Terror (from a conservative website, talk about hoist on own petard !)

""Ptech is used primarily to develop enterprise blueprints at the highest level of US government and corporate infrastructure. These blueprints hold every important functional, operational, and technical detail of the enterprise. A secondary use of this powerful tool is to build other smart tools in a short period of time. Ptech’s clients in 2001 included the Department of Justice, the Department of Energy, Customs, Air Force, the White House, the FAA, IBM, Sysco, Aetna, and Motorola, to name just a few.""

http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=17730

With FAA, DoD, and WhiteHouse connections, this Saudi software firm appears to be a 'smoking gun' in the Lihop/Mihop scenarios, IMHO. Begging the question, do they STILL have these connections ? And if so, isn't this bigger than the Dubai Ports story ?

Just asking questions like whistleblower Indira Singh did.

[Name removed]

121. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hang a left]

122. OT How do I find DU archives from 2004

I want to find the threads from this General's testimony. We were live posting.

Someone told me how a while back and I forgot.

Thanks

[JohnyCanuck]

127. Is that popping sound I am hearing,

the sound of heads being pulled out of asses all over the USA?

[QuettaKid]

142. It DOES feel good to come up out of the dungeon

and breathe some of this LBN air doesn't it?:hi: :hi: :hi:

[frylock]

143. yeah - i can't believe the mods haven't moved this to the sasquatch forum

[HamdenRice]

164. DO I LOOK OK??? Do I look OK?

[HamdenRice]

200. Obscure joke: Steve McQueen when first allowed out of the dungeon

Sorry if the post above was too obscure an attempt at humor. The picture in the post above is from a creepy scene in the Steve McQueen movie, Papillon, in which McQueen plays a prisoner on a miserable French prison island near French Guyana.

The prison has a dungeon where prisoners are put in solitary in the dark. When McQueen first sees the dungeon, a pathetic prisoner sticks his head out of the dungeon and blinks, sseing light for the first time in weeks, and asks McQueen, "Do I look OK? Do I look OK?"

Flash forward a month or so into McQueen's time in the dungeon and a new prisoner comes in. Now McQueen is the demented wretch asking the new guy, "Do I look OK? Do I look OK?"

[donkeyotay]

170. So little, so late that I don't know if we can get our hopes up

but more people are wondering if only planes were hijacked on 9-11. There are a few more cracks in the stonewall - this revelation, the Bamford piece in Rolling Stone, and one of latest postings on Sibel Edmonds' page about the Turkish mafia in which names are suggested for those in our government who may have known something about 9-11, including Richard Perle, Marc Grossman and Douglas Feith. Sibel Edmonds would like to tell us all what she knows, but there's another coverup, another investigation to nowhere, another "we can't tell you, national security, blah, blah, blah."

Dear Senators, Rome is burning. Please pull your congressional head out of the biggest know-nothing, do-nothing congress in the short sad history of human freedom and stand up to the fascists who have hijacked our nation. - a concerned citizen.

[AndyA]

159. Holy shit. It would appear that OBL in the least of our worries with Bush

and his Gestapo in The White House.

[Pale Blue Dot]

162. Why I think this make MIHOP MORE believeable

The tape recording recounted in the Vanity Fair article are very compelling, and are a completely plausible account of what happened at NORAD on 9/11. Their failure to react was one of the major questions that I felt needed to be answered.

And after getting a reasonable, plausible answer, I believe in MIHOP more than ever.

One of the arguments that anti-conspirists make is that too many people would have needed to be involved to make MIHOP work. I think that is a good argument, and one I didn't have an answer for.

But what if MIHOP required only 1 or 2 people who knew:

a) A training exercise was planned for that day;

b) The way FAA communications would have worked on that day;

c) The procedures, or lack thereof, NORAD had to deal with such an event?

Someone who had that knowledge could feed it to the hijackers (or a "friendly" government), and very few additional people would have to know.

So the questions for me would be:

1. Who profited most from the events of 9/11;

and 2) Who would have had access to this information?

And on a side note (?), Cheney is implicated in a lie in this same article:

"In his bunker under the White House, Vice President Cheney was not notified about United 93 until 10:02—only one minute before the airliner impacted the ground. Yet it was with dark bravado that the vice president and others in the Bush administration would later recount sober deliberations about the prospect of shooting down United 93. "Very, very tough decision, and the president understood the magnitude of that decision," Bush's then chief of staff, Andrew Card, told ABC News."

[Old and In the Way]

257. Were 11, 175, 93, and 77 part of the wargames that day?

I believe that there were a number of commercial aircraft that were involved with the military exercises. Part of the simulation was addressing terrorist hijackings. Could the Raytheon engineers have been testing/observing remote control anti-hijacking technology as part of the exercise? Could Atta and his crew of drug running hustlers have been hired on in a role playing scheme?

If any or all of the planes were involved with the exercise, what are the odds of 4 seperate crews of hijackers choosing aircraft involved in these simulations?

A general comment about conspirtacy theories. If a conspiracy of 19 Arabs could sucessfully pull off a hijacking of this magnitude, wouldn't 19 highly placed people in our government be capabable of making an illusion that 19 Arabs sucessfully pulled off the hijacking?

[lthuedk]

169. Who could have imagined airplanes used as weapons? Try these:

Stephen Pitt

[redqueen]

173. I'm SHOCKED! Shocked to know that they lied to Congress!

:sarcasm:

hope the rest of this dozy country wakes up sooner rather than later!

esp. in light of the fact that the bush administration wants to use military tribunals for suspects who aren't even suspected of being in any way involved with terrorism!

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/nation/15176692.htm?source=rss&channel=miamiherald_nation
http://writ.news.findlaw.com/mariner/20060802.html

[paulthompson]

176. I'm going to be a guest talking about this on Air America today!

I just found out that Randi Rhodes wants me to be a guest on her show today to talk about these latest 9/11 developments. The time is approximately 5:30 Eastern time and 2:30 Pacific time. I hope you'll listen in.

[robertpaulsen]

181. Thanks for the heads up! You're the best!

I will definitely be tuning in.

:yourock:

[frylock]

183. sweet!

Can't wait to hear what you have to say. Keep up the good work!

[HamdenRice]

199. I will definitely listen -- great work! nt

[milkyway]

190. Nothing to see here, folks. Simply a clerical error. Let's move along.

From the WaPo article:

A separate (Pentagon) report, delivered secretly to Congress in May 2005, blamed inaccuracies in part on problems with the way the Defense Department kept its records, according to a summary released yesterday.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

198. Jack Cafferty will be discussing at 4pm. nt.

[Name removed]

203. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[toymachines]

207. So does this vindicate the 911 forum?

Can we question the official story and not have it relegated to the dungeon? Has the "Underground" finally accepted that something is very awry with 9/11? I think the response to this thread shows that we need to discuss this on a major level.

[we can do it]

252. One Can Only Hope

[QuettaKid]

265. Agreed. We DO need to discuss this on a major level

and keep it out here in front of the most number of eyes possible. And it also needs to be spread out far and wide on every other forum you all visit.

[ConcernedCanuk]

210. "Deception by Pentagon" - that's a big "doh" in my Canuk brain . . .

.
.
.

Does any thinking person down there expect honesty from their own Government?

The USA Government has their own agenda

- and it has nothing to do with the welfare of it's own citizens

- they just need your tax dollars to fund their war machine

and they got them . . .

(sigh)

[Raster]

215. Unfortunately war, weapons of war, infrastructure of war, planning for war

...WAR is the biggest enterprise in America today. War is our number one export and our most lucrative cash crop. War and death. War is a great business. Invest a child today.

[ConcernedCanuk]

217. "WAR is the biggest enterprise in America today" - sadly - I agree . .

.
.
.

But I wish people would stop referring to the USA as "America"

America - there are two of them -

North America includes Canada and Mexico -

I don't want the world to get confused, as if we are "affiliated" with this killing machine of the USA - although unfortunately we seem to have got dragged out of our peacekeeping role to take a combat role in Afghanistan -

sad move for Canada that

Mexico has been smarter on that one -

and SOUTH America ?

well - we know how much they luv the USA now don't we?

"America" does not equal the USA - USA is it's own beast -

There are alot of "Americans" that have never set foot in the USA

and never will

[KansDem]

218. I agree...

I occasionally refer to us as "United Statesians," or just "Statesians," only to have people look at me cross-eyed. Perhaps "Middle North Americans" might also be considered...???

[ConcernedCanuk]

223. How about "Warriors from the West" ?? - that fits - - -

.
.
.

The new "Vikings" - ruling by force

by the way

Where ARE them Vikings today?

OH

They are all dead

mention that to George - - - -

USA's future

A nation disgraced . . .

[Megahurtz]

245. You got THAT right!

Lucky for you to live in Canada!:toast:

Cheers and here's to Canada!:beer:

[JuniperLea]

216. I'd personally like to shove this article up the collective asses

of all the fucktards who verbally abused so many here who wanted to discuss the possibility of MIHOP or LIHOP.

Tinfoil hat my lily white ass.

[lovuian]

222. Vanity Fair is letting the story out of the bag

that telephone record...

[Name removed]

225. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lapfog_1]

228. Remember the "Maine"

while likely not a MIHOP, but rather a tragic accident, the explosion that destroyed the Maine was used as the primary reason for the US to declare war on Spain.

[Ghost Dog]

230. Absolutely right. n/t

[sce56]

249. Read "War is but a racket" By Smedley Butler, MG USMC RET Circa 1935

Double Congressional Medal of Honor Recipient
Major General Smedley Butler




MAJOR GENERAL
SMEDLEY D. BUTLER, USMC
(DECEASED)

Haitian Campaign 1919-1920 Medal of Honor Recipient
Vera Cruz 1914 Medal of Honor Recipient
BUTLER, SMEDLEY DARLINGTON (First Award)
Rank and organization: Major, U.S. Marine Corps. Born: 30 July 1881, West Chester, Pa. Appointed from: Pennsylvania. G.O. No.: 177, 4 December 1915. Other Navy awards: Second Medal of Honor, Distinguished Service Medal. Citation: For distinguished conduct in battle, engagement of Vera Cruz, 22 April 1914. Maj. Butler was eminent and conspicuous in command of his battalion. He exhibited courage and skill in leading his men through the action of the 22d and in the final occupation of the city.



BUTLER, SMEDLEY DARLINGTON (Second Award)
Rank and organization: Major, U.S. Marine Corps. Born: 30 July 1881, West Chester, Pa. Appointed from: Pennsylvania. Other Navy awards: Second Medal of Honor, Distinguished Service Medal. Citation: As Commanding Officer of detachments from the 5th, 13th, 23d Companies and the marine and sailor detachment from the U.S.S. Connecticut, Maj. Butler led the attack on Fort Riviere, Haiti, 17 November 1915. Following a concentrated drive, several different detachments of marines gradually closed in on the old French bastion fort in an effort to cut off all avenues of retreat for the Caco bandits. Reaching the fort on the southern side where there was a small opening in the wall, Maj. Butler gave the signal to attack and marines from the 15th Company poured through the breach, engaged the Cacos in hand-to-hand combat, took the bastion and crushed the Caco resistance. Throughout this perilous action, Maj. Butler was conspicuous for his bravery and forceful leadership.





Butler became a prominent political figure and was one of America’s important leaders of the liberal movement of the 1930s. Butler advocated military isolationism and was against American involvement in World War II. His isolationist views are certainly unpopular today, and in fact are not compatible with the current geopolitical situation. His views, however, developed from 33 years of serving as what he called “a gangster for capitalism.”


In 1935 Butler published War is a Racket, which got high praise at the time, as well as strong criticism. The forward by Lowell Thomas spoke of Butler’s “moral as well as physical courage” and noted that “Even his opponents concede that in his stand on public questions, General Butler has been motivated by the same fiery integrity and loyal patriotism which has distinguished his service in countless Marine campaigns.”
http://www.veteransforpeace.org/war_is_a_racket_033103.htm
http://www.medalofhonor.com/SmedleyButler.htm

[ms liberty]

236. "Three can keep a secret if two of them are dead" - Benjamin Franklin

Will this go any farther? Or will they ignore it some more?

If everything starts oozing out of this primordial pool of toxic sludge, the American people will be screaming for justice from every corner. At some point we're going to hit a critical mass point in the scandal overload. It won't be pretty.

[Megahurtz]

237. "the fog of stupid bureaucracy"

:spray:

That in and of itself is funny!

But will they ever let out the real truth?
Is they main stream media saying much about this? (LOL yeah right!):sarcasm:

This will probably be silenced just like everything else. If not, I won't believe it until I see it.

[ThoughtCriminal]

253. D.O.T. - D.O.A.

>>"In the end, the panel agreed to a compromise, turning over the allegations to the inspectors general for the Defense and Transportation departments, who can make criminal referrals if they believe they are warranted, officials said."

That pretty much guaranteed it would be swept it under the rug.

[BrklynLiberal]

254. My rec - #150 - officially changes my tinfoil hat into a Fedora!!!!!!

Someone, somewhere, intentionally sent all those scrambled jets out over the Atlantic Ocean instead of to where the hijacked planes were heading, so they could not be stopped.


Does this mean that 9/11 discussions might stay out of the dungeon for a while from now on?

[samsingh]

259. wow - unbelievable

[Algorem]

260. on Dianne Rehm this morning

http://www.wamu.org/programs/dr/06/08/03.php#11705

Thursday August 3, 2006
Join the show: 1-800-433-8850 ([e-mail] )

10:00NORAD tapes
Journalist Michael Bronner discusses America's military response on the morning of September 11th based on newly released audiotapes from the North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD) Northeast headquarters.

Guests
Michael Bronner, journalist and author of "9/11 Live: The NORAD Tapes", Vanity Fair, September 06 issue

Colin Scoggins, military specialist, Boston Air Route Traffic Controller, FAA

[Wednesdays]

266. Is this even being talked about in the main stream media?

I channel surfed for a while...not a peep about 9/11 anywhere. There was, however, a "feel good" spot on CBS this morning about how * is renovating the White House press room. :eyes:

[Generator]

272. I want to weep

I think I will. I saw a headline at the last minute last night and didn't get to read it till now.. For everyone that has called all of us that have know the official 9/11 story and then the 9/11 commission story stinks to high heaven, conspiracy theorists, crazy or worse...I want to to weep. NO, it doesn't prove anything. But damn it I've been reading everything I can on this for three years (later to the party than some) and finally I am told what I've know all along.

They are lying to us about the day that changed everything. And this is a crime (no matter what the conclusion) against the American people. It's the people we pay billions to defend us failing and lying and covering up. Finally we get a glimpse of the cowards on the 9/11 commission and here's the answer to America:

YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH.

How many lies can this nation take? How much truth can it not handle?

[lilypad_567]

274. help

some lady just call me and ask me if i have ever use my phone to call to iran, do that mean that i am being spy on, i do get my internet from aol, and phone service from verzion. should i cancel aol, or verzion, or both. is there a way to report this to the government? no i mean it, i think that i am being spy on, because i see a lot of van, like from sears, for week out side my neighborhood, and no one seem to be moving. oh no, have any of u guy ever notice a sears van park outside ur neighborhood for weeks for no reason at all?

[wildbilln864]

284. Excellent...

threads deserve a kick!

[Name removed]

285. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[QuettaKid]

286. How come the other 9/11 NORAD tapes thread got locked? nt.

.

[phrenzy]

295. How Does This Mean LIHOP or MIHOP??

Not to put the cold blanket on people who believe 9/11 was a conspiracy (for the record, I believe there are most certainly lies told about specific events of that day for a variety of reasons) - BUT - How does Norad getting caught in a lie trying to cover up incompetency suddenly mean that this proves any of the theories put forth?

If anything, it just looks like yet another bureaucracy engaging in ass covering. I wouldn't be surprised if it had something to do with either shooting down airliners (not wanting to people to know they were prepared to do that) - or rather NOT shooting them down (people finding out that they COULD have brought them down, but bungling led them to fail to do that)

Either way, while huge news, I believe we are FAR far away from anything leading us to some kind of grand conspiracy in causing 9/11 to happen in the first place.