Dealing with the PLO didn't prepare the Israeli army for Hezbollah

[bemildred]

---

"I didn't expect it," said Assaf, a 21-year-old first sergeant whose Israeli unit repelled a fierce Hezbollah attack last week in the southern Lebanese town of Taibe. "I thought it would end, like, two weeks ago."

---

"We're not used to people who know how to fight," said Assaf. "Here, it's scary. It's like a war."

---

"It was such a different war," said Gelnik, a skinny 20-year-old. "Hezbollah is a regular army, a terrorist organization that is really well organized. In the territories, it was a bit different."

---

"We can capture all of Lebanon in a few days," said Amir. "But we have the same problem the Americans had in Vietnam. You can't win this war. If you kill 100, it won't finish this war. What will finish this war? I guess only politically, not militarily."

McClatchy

[cali]

1. Now if only

the Israeli leaders could catch up to the wisdom of the 20 year old troops.

[bemildred]

2. Second that.

I wonder how Halutz' tummy is doing?
:thumbsup:

[Jacobin]

25. Third that one

Old men start wars for young boys to fight.

They should send the old men who want a war to the forking front lines and lets see how long this would last

[calimary]

31. LOVE this statement, Jacobin.

YES. Those who want the war so frickin' badly ought to be the first to suit up and go fight in it.

[liberalhistorian]

28. It seems like the troops in the trenches,

doing the actual hard, bloody work, are almost always wiser than the "leaders" who sent them there in the first place and who remain safe and sound in their ivory towers.

[AlamoDemoc]

3. "Here, it's scary. It's like a war."

welcome to the real world, dear boy.

[Ms. Clio]

4. gosh, you mean "there" (sic) not really "all the same," after all?

Gosh, whoda ever thunk it???

[jrd200x]

13. No, they are armed by Iran and Syria

and have comparable weapons in some instances.

[Ms. Clio]

14. put up a link to prove your assertions

and who arms Israel?

[xchrom]

5. ''If you kill 100, it won't finish this war.

What will finish this war? I guess only politically, not militarily."
does any one need to say more?

[acmavm]

6. And it's the arrogance and criminality of their leaders that are going to

cost the lives of young kids like that.

Ohlmert thought he had a 'cakewalk' on his hands, defeating Hebzollah would be like walking in, kicking ass, taking over.

Truth is, it has been decades of arrogant Israeli governments and their dismissal of the rights of the Palestinian people that they are fighting now. This ain't 1967. And it doesn't matter what the Israelis think of the backing of bush** and the neocons. That won't help. They've been shown to be defeatable. The Iraqis have them all tied up in knots. So do the Afganis (along with the rest of the international whatever you want to call it).

Jeez, Ohlmert's criminal arrogance reminds me of something else. Just can't quite think of what it is...

[regnaD kciN]

12. I don't think it's just the Israeli leadership that's behind this...

Ohlmert thought he had a 'cakewalk' on his hands, defeating Hebzollah would be like walking in, kicking ass, taking over.

From what I've read coming from within Israel (including a former advisor to the Prime Minister), the major driving force behind this war hasn't come from Tel Aviv but Washington. Yep, it's the same people who brought you the "not to last six months" Iraq invasion that were pushing Israel to turn the capture of two soldiers into a major invasion, thinking that it would make people think Bush's "Global War On Terror" was having striking success on at least one front, thus distracting people from the Quagmire in Iraq. Supposedly, last weekend, the Israeli leadership was looking for a face-saving way to get out of this situation, but the word from Washington (Cheney, Rumsfeld, and the PNAC crew, I'll bet) was that the U.S. would not help them out with any call for a cease-fire.

Now that it looks like Lebanon is turning into Iraq West, word has it that Bush is furious with the Israeli government for not "delivering the goods." What's that old definition of insanity? Trying the same thing over and over, while expecting different results? :eyes:

[acmavm]

22. Oh right, not Israel's fault. Someone else put them up to it? Gee, what

suckers. They follow the orders of the American regime who are getting their asses kicked in Iraq and Afganistan.

Right. Israel's the proverbial innocent bystander/victim again. As always.

[regnaD kciN]

29. Wow...

That has to be the first time I've been called an Israeli apologist on this board.

[FreeStateDemocrat]

7. Won't this embolden the Arabs for future confrontation since the mystique

of IDF invincibility has been eroded if not eliminated by this conflict?

[bemildred]

8. I think the Arabs will definitely be emboldened. nt

[adriennui]

10. what will the arabs do if they're emboldened

should i get my shotgun oiled and bunker supplied?

[bemildred]

15. Try to do more of all the things you don't want them to do.

Bombings, rockets, attempts to capture hostages "bargaining chips", etc. They will also probably display much greater interest in anti-tank weapons and training along the lines of what Hezbollah has done too.

I have no idea what you personally ought to do, although I would think an automatic weapon would be better than a shotgun, if it came to that. Hopefully, it will not come to that.

[regnaD kciN]

18. Get a bunker and shotgun in New York...???

Whatever may happen in Lebanon, I doubt it will "embolden" any Arab country or faction to attempt a ground invasion of the U.S. :crazy:

[IndianaGreen]

27. How about working for peace?

A just and fair peace must have as its basis the return of all the lands taken by Israel in 1967.

The hardliners in Israel won't like that. Tough shit!

A just and fair peace will make permanent the 1967 borders, with compensation for those that lost property in the 1948 war.

The hardliners among Israel's neighbors won't like that. Tough shit!

Sharon had the right idea about the so-called "Separation Wall." He just build it on the wrong place.

[regnaD kciN]

17. It depends on which "Arabs" you're talking about...

It will probably embolden the Islamic radicals like Hezbollah, Hamas, and the Muslim Brotherhood. But the neighboring Arab countries? Unlike the radicals, I think those countries actually value continued earthly existence, and can count. The fact is that the IDF is much, much more powerful than any of the militaries of neighboring countries, even the ones that don't have peace treaties with Israel. Plus Israel has nuclear weapons. And the backing of the world's only superpower. This makes it wildly unlikely that any Arab country would take offensive military action against Israel. You may well see in increase in the sort of cross-border "shoot and run" guerrilla attacks the radicals specialize in. And Israel will have to keep in mind that it will remain vulnerable to rocket attacks (even if said rockets are really glorified, randomly-directed mortar shells unlikely to deal major death tolls), and that, as the range of such rockets increase, there's no way that any buffer zone will be large enough.

On the other hand, there's one possibly beneficial result from a Lebanon stalemate, and that would be a re-evaluation of Israel's attitude toward the neighboring Arab peoples. I don't have a link for these (one was from Haaretz, the other from Gush Shalom), but I read two quotes a couple of days ago that I think crystallized part of the problem: ever since 1967, the Israeli leadership has come to have not only hatred but also contempt for Arabs. The swift victory of the Six-Day War led to the conclusion that, although the Arabs were dangerous, they were also inept and cowardly, and could be treated that way. One of the initial goals of the Lebanon invasion, according to the Haaretz article, was to inflict enough pain on the civilian population of Lebanon that they would rise up and beg the Lebanese government to take action against Hezbollah. Now, not only is that immoral (attacking a noncombatant third party) and unreasonable (since it was well-known that the Lebanese government didn't have the military strength to take on Hezbollah in the south), but it also makes no sense. Were Israelis in that hypothetical position, would they demand their government "knuckle under" to the demands of neighboring Arabs to make the attack end? Not on your life! It would simply harden their resolve to force the war to ultimate victory. But the Israeli leaders, apparently, didn't see the Arabs as "like us" in that respect, but as weaklings who could be bullied into "crying Uncle." It's similar to their approach to the Palestinians, which has been to make their lives hard enough that they realize that they have no hope at anything better than gratefully accepting whatever settlement Israel decides, in its benevolence, to offer them. (I'm getting this from many sources, including the musings of PNAC members such as Richard Perle, and pro-Israeli voices such as Alan Dershowitz.)

If there's one good thing that can come out of this, it would be an Israeli recognition that there is bravery and determination on the Arab side just as there is on the Israeli side. It's a lot easier to forge a peaceful settlement when you see the other side as at least somewhat similar to you, rather than viewing them as contemptible weaklings.

[Ms. Clio]

19. excellent analysis

:thumbsup:

[bemildred]

20. I agree, on all points.nt

[Zhade]

23. In other words, the Israeli government is somewhat racist.

Man, that was a top-notch analysis. Good to know that you and others are sharing some sanity on these boards. If I have to read one more excusing away of children killed by the IDF, I might scream.

[Minstrel Boy]

26. well said

If you want something like peace, you don't need to love your enemies, just respect them.

[Spazito]

33. Wow, well said! n/t

[muryan]

9. IDF has not had its imaged eroded

but rather the feasibility of such a conflict has been drawn into question. Such as, if fighting a guerrilla force based in civilian areas is possible with an army?

[regnaD kciN]

21. That's a good point...

...and should be part of the education resuling from Gulf War II and Lebanon. Guerrilla forces are hard to overcome, as long as the fight is on their "home field." In other words, guerilla militias can fight even the most powerful army to a standstill in a defensive situation, and can conduct minor but damaging offensive operations such as border raids and shelling. But a guerilla force is not effective in full-scale offensive operations against a country where they don't already have a substantial residential presence. Victory for North Vietnam was possible because they had a large Vietcong presence living in South Vietnam. But can anyone believe that Hezbollah or Hamas (or even the two of them working together) would be able to stage a successful invasion of Israel itself (i.e. beyond the "Green Line")? No more so than that al-Qaeda could invade the U.S. When dealing with a conventional army versus a guerrilla force, it must be kept in mind that the latter is a potent defensive force, but not much of an offensive threat.

[jpkenny]

24. Sorry, but its image is eroded by it barbaric and inhumane attacks

on unarmed and stranded civilians. How anyone can feel proud of behavior is beyond me. The site of the mangled bodies of women and children and old sick and handicapped people should make a grown man cry. The Palestinians have only their bodies to use as weapons but Hizbollah gave up suicide bombings and began to train to fight for their country. If they had the air power and ship-based weaponry that Israel has there is no question in my mind that Israel would be a defeated aggressor and the occupation in all territories would have been over long ago. As long as the US keeps the weapons, F16s, and high tech tanks and weapons and money going to Israel, the Palestinians and the Lebanese will always be out matched in arms but not in courage.

[muryan]

30. such noble terrorists!

shooting rockets into densely populated cities and calling for the destruction of all jews is COURAGEOUS now? amazing.

[regnaD kciN]

11. Maybe that has something to do with the fact...

...that, after the Oslo agreement, the Palestinian Authority was tasked with helping to ensure Israeli security.

True, they didn't always honor that committment (especially in later years; in 1996, Mossad praised the PA for their effectiveness in fighting terrorism), but they did it for long enough to hinder the growth of a genuinely powerful militia in the territories. Israel never had to deal with a situation where the predominant military force on the ground (the PA) would fight back alongside the Islamic radicals (Hamas). Here, in south Lebanon, the Islamic radicals and the predominant military force on the ground are one and the same.

[bemildred]

16. Sort of right.

The main difference is training and modern weapons, both of which are much better controlled in the territories.

[confludemocrat]

32. IDF soldier: Hezbollah "is a terrorist organization that is a real army"

very telling, with emphasis on the latter part of that quote.

[manic expression]

34. Read the comments, it shows quite a bit

they're surprised they can't just beat up on an entire country like they do with Palestine. It's a bully mentality, Israel wants to hurt others without a problem, and they're disappointed when they can't (so they try to bully them more).

[Binka]

35. The Behavior Is Much Like A Malignant Narcissist

Quite nasty mental disorder.

[The Stranger]

36. And you're realizing this now? After destroying the democratic government

that had just been established months ago, and the best proof against Hezbollah?

Holy fucking imbeciles, Batman.