Chavez: Castro out of bed and talking

[Say_What]

This is bound to have the resident Gusanos foaming at the mouth and chewing the carpet. :evilgrin:

<clips>

HAVANA — Fidel Castro was out of bed and talking following his intestinal surgery, Venezuela's president said Sunday as messages wishing the Cuban leader a quick recovery poured in from Latin America's leading leftists and Elian Gonzalez.

Cuban officials have provided no details and released no pictures of Castro since his surgery was announced last Monday _ fueling speculation around the world about his condition. Raul Castro, the defense minister, also has not been seen in public since the announcement.

"How are you, Fidel?" Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez said during his weekly TV and radio program, suggesting he believed the Cuban leader was watching. "We have reliable information of your quick and notable recuperation."

"Fidel Castro, a hug for you, friend and comrade, and I know you are getting better," Chavez said.

Talking by phone with Bolivian President Evo Morales later during the program, Chavez said that Castro was bouncing back quickly.



http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/world/4098105.html

[Fridays Child]

1. Gusanos? Worms? Caterpillars? Is that a pejorative term?

:shrug:

[Say_What]

2. It's how Cubans on the island refer to the so-called exiles in Miami

it's another word for coward. :bounce:

[Vidar]

4. I like that. Thanks for the info.

[muryan]

105. Im not sure i follow you

"so-called" exiles. not sure what you mean

[Poppyseedman]

3. I do find it strange that Castro has not published a picture

of himself recovering. You would think one picture would put to rest ANY speculation of his current condition.

[Judi Lynn]

11. How many photos have you seen of U.S. officials immediately

after surgery?

Absolutely ZERO. That would be retarded, wouldn't it?

I know no one I have never known who has had surgery is having photos for public consumption taken right after surgery.

Someone is really yanking the chains of some of our finest morans. Normal people wouldn't fall for that one. You don't have your self video taped or photographed while you're still recovering. IDIOTS.

[murray hill farm]

18. The first time I went to Cuba...

I asked if there was any way I could meet Castro..it never hurts to ask..ha! I was told that no one sees Castro except for 1) at designated functions of Cuba..political or holidays, etc. or 2) If something goes wrong in Cuba...natural disasters, accidents, fires, etc. and then he will just be there helping..getting things handles..up close and personal. The people of Cuba do not know where he lives...and it changes..due to so many attempts to assassinate him by the USA.

[BrotherBuzz]

29. It was long ago and far away but don't t forget LBJ's gallbladder scar...

granted, it wasn't taken right after surgery, but Jeez louise, what was he thinking? :shrug:

[megatherium]

103. As i recall, LBJ was trying to explain why he was not running for

reelection. There was a famous political cartoon that appeared that showed him pointing to his scar, which had an eerie resemblance to Vietnam.

[BrotherBuzz]

104. The surgery was in 1965, three years before the election

When Lyndon Johnson raised his shirt to show his scar to assembled reporters, he was just trying to show he was all right, the gesture backfired in ways he couldn't have imagined at the time. That photo-op became the brunt of a lot of jokes ranging from a LTTE quipping "god forbid he should have a hemorrhoidectomy!" to the the roadmap political cartoon you referred to. It was his George Bush moment.

[megatherium]

110. Thanks for the clarification. I was only 5 at the time. nt

[BrotherBuzz]

127. There was one other horrid photo-op from the era.

I can't find any refrence to it but LBJ picked up his hunting dog (a beagle or a fox hound?) by the ears claiming it improved the 'bark'' and made it a better hunting dog. It is understood he was well it his cups back in those days and was a twisted and conflicted crude man saddled with that Vietnam thing . Damn the Vietnam war - would have, could have, should have. LBJ got played by the eastern powers and was never able to fight the one war he felt worth fighting 'The war on poverty'.

Times Have Been Better

[Garbo 2004]

51. Ronald Reagan after intestinal surgery.

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/politics/reagan/photo/reagan7.htm

[Judi Lynn]

53. So?

[Garbo 2004]

56. So? In answer to your question in your previous post:

How many photos have you seen of U.S. officials immediately after surgery?

Absolutely ZERO. That would be retarded, wouldn't it?

I know no one I have never known who has had surgery is having photos for public consumption taken right after surgery.

Someone is really yanking the chains of some of our finest morans. Normal people wouldn't fall for that one. You don't have your self video taped or photographed while you're still recovering. IDIOTS.

Reagan did have a photo op within a week of intestinal surgery. You asked for an example. As I recall there also were photos when he was recovering in the hospital after he was shot.

[Judi Lynn]

57. Yeah? I honestly don't care.

I trust there's a reason he's not standing at windows and waving like a complete a-hole.

Why would you think the two situations are exactly similar? How much do you know about either one, really?

Why not simply wait for more details as they develope?

Nice photo of Reagan....

[Poppyseedman]

59. Reagan, LBJ. Cheney after out patient.

I don't believe anybody is or was saying we needed to see Castro literally right out of the operating room or even in the recovery room.

How about 72 hours after he is had a chance to look better and speak coherently.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

122. One has to keep up the hopes as long as possible, huh?

"Brazil can still tie against France! There's still 5 minutes left! No way we're going out at the quarterfinals!"
"OH NO! That idiot Simpson caught that ball but the Cubs can STILL go to the WS! We'll win the next game!"

etc...

[flobee1]

5. Strikes me as an odd thing to say

In Washington, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said Sunday the United States wants to help Cubans prepare for democracy but is not contemplating an invasion of the island in the wake of Castro's illness.

"The notion that somehow the United States is going to invade Cuba, because there are troubles in Cuba, is simply far-fetched," Rice told NBC television. "The United States wants to be a partner and a friend to the Cuban people as they move through this period of difficulty and as they move ahead. But what Cuba should not have is the replacement of one dictator by another."


-----is she saying the US is a dictatorship?

[Ilsa]

32. I heard her say that on MTP this morning, and

I remember thinking, "What the hell does that mean?" and I considered a puppet dictatorship just as you mentioned. How odd that she seems to naturally have that reaction. Well, at least she wasn't playing coy.

[Marie26]

34. period of difficulty & troubles

Why is it a "period of difficulty" if Castro is fine & ready to go back to work? She's talking as if there is a permanent change in store.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

123. HAH! Few slips are more Freudian than that! -nt

[whistle]

6. What is a resident gusano....

1. Gusano

A Chicano pejorative term for "Hispanics," or mainstreamed Mexicans, derived from Fidel's use for any reactionary, counter-revolutionary person.

Other meanings: Right-Wing, sell-out, conservative, neo-fascist, traitor.

Those Gusanos at the Centro Cultural held a fund raiser in conjunction with big-time War Profiteers.

[Garbo 2004]

7. Apparently Chavez hasn't spoken to Castro but is only repeating what he's

been told by Cuban gov't officials. That's hardly a confirmation of Castro's improving condition if Chavez is simply passing along what he's been told.

I'd suspect if Castro was well enough to even have a brief video clip or phone conversation that would be made public ASAP to allay concerns and rumors.

[Judi Lynn]

15. From what we read about real Cubans in Cuba, they aren't trembling

in confusion about it. Every report indicates they're completely calm.

[Marie26]

20. ABC News

interviewed some Cubans in the street, and they found it odd that the new leader hasn't appeared in public yet.

[Mika]

35. There is no new leader. Mr Castro isn't dead. He's still Head of State.

Mr Fidel Castro simply handed over oversight of some critical duties to other heads of ministries while he recuperates from surgery.

Just because the US talking heads (both government and media) mewl that Raul Castro is the new leader doesn't make it so.

Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that
this Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that

All of the 'Raul this and Raul that' hysteria is just further proof of how easily Americans are led, like lemmings, by the words of professional propagandists (both government and media).

[Marie26]

37. Uh-huh

Supposedly, Castro officially appointed Raul to take power temporarily. Meaning Raul Castro now is the temporary "Head of State". If that's "propaganda", it isn't coming from the media, but from the Cuban government. Maybe Castro is fine, & maybe he isn't. I tend to think he is in very serious condition, at the least. I guess we'll see.

[Yupster]

134. You'd think after 47 years

that people would understand that Fidel is President For Life.

[Garbo 2004]

43. ? Did I say Cubans were "trembling?" Are there "unreal" Cubans in

Cuba?

Simply, Castro's been in power for decades and not a shy or quiet sort. It's not a small thing for him to have a health crisis that supposedly leads him to give temporary power to his brother. Given the likely suspicion in Cuba's gov't that any sign of weakness or possible gov't instability might be seized upon by opponents, at home or abroad (i.e., the US), it's not particularly odd to surmise that if Castro was well enough at this time to give some direct public evidence of his recovery he would do so.

[Robbien]

46. Castro has a whole team which governs Cuba

His brother is just one part of the team and that team is governing the island today just as it has done before Castro got sick. The only Cuban weakness or instability is just a mis-perception in the minds of Miami Cubans and the Bush Admin.

The only unreal Cubans are those fanatics in Miami.

[Judi Lynn]

48. Speaking of which, they're mentioned in this article I just found:

Posted on Sun, Aug. 06, 2006
Cuban Americans become a less reliable Republican bloc
By Lesley Clark and Beth Reinhard
McClatchy Newspapers

WASHINGTON - Fidel Castro's exit from the world stage - an eventuality that gained renewed urgency with his relinquishing of presidential power last week - could shake up decades of Republican dominance among Cuban-American voters.

South Florida's large Cuban-American population has long been one of the party's most loyal constituencies, rallied to political events by cries of "Cuba si, Castro no." At least 8 in 10 of Florida's nearly half-million Cuban-American voters backed President Bush in 2000, when he won the state by just 537 votes, though a survey after the 2004 election showed a slip.

But as the number of hard-line exiles declines - replaced by second- and third-generation Cuban-Americans, who polls show are more concerned with pocketbook issues than foreign policy - some suggest that the loss of Castro's visage could erode the potency of the voting bloc.

"Long run, I see the opportunities for Democrats," said Sergio Bendixen, a Miami-based pollster. "It is now fish or cut bait for the Republican Party and all these politicians promising for so long they would do something about Cuba."

The key Republican bloc has been crucial to landing Florida's much-coveted 27 electoral votes. In 1996, President Clinton secured 40 percent of the Cuban-American vote and won Florida.

Republican Florida Sen. Mel Martinez, a Cuban-American, agreed that a Castro-less Cuba could pose new complications for the Republican Party.
(snip/...)

http://www.bradenton.com/mld/bradenton/news/nation/15209300.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Speaking of leeches, did you ever read any information on one of Miami's leading gusano personalities, Demetrio Perez? He owns the school to which they sent little Elián Gonzalez while they were holding him hostage in Miami.

Perez was found guilty of fraud concerning Cuban renters he was lodging under the U.S. taxpayer subsidized rent program, Section 8, and he was cheating THEM, ripping them off, pocketing money to which he isn't entitled, and still continues to be one of Miami's leading personalities, even broadcasting his own words of wisdom in programs from his own house during the time he was inexplcably given house arrest rather than being sent to prison.

Here's an article which tells you far more than you'd want to know, and a photo which also shows you more than you really feel like seeing!





article:
http://music.miaminewtimes.com/issues/2000-06-15/feature_full.html

[Marie26]

8. This is weird

"Vice President Carlos Lage, in Bolivia to attend the country's constitutional assembly, was asked by reporters when Castro would be back at work.

"In a few weeks," he replied.

Cuban officials have provided no details and released no pictures of Castro since his surgery was announced last Monday _ fueling speculation around the world about his condition. His brother Raul Castro, the defense minister, also has not been seen in public since the announcement."

1.) Why is the Vice President the only one who's out in public & talking to the press? Why hasn't Raul Castro, the heir apparent, made any announcement about Castro's condition? Why isn't anyone making a formal announcement? It sounds like reporters basically had to corner the VP for an answer.

2.) Where is Raul Castro? Since being temporarily handed power, he's disappeared.

3.) Where is Castro? If he's really doing so well, why will it take "a few weeks" until he can work again? Why hasn't he appeared in public to reassure the Cuban people of his condition?

4.) Chavez hasn't spoken to Castro. He only says that he's received "reliable intelligence" about Castro's condition. That can mean anything. It doesn't seem like there's one world leader who's actually spoken to Castro directly since the surgery.

I wonder if Castro is maybe in a coma, or dying. And I wonder if Raul has really taken power, or if maybe some other official is trying to take control. It's just very weird.

[FreeStateDemocrat]

9. This may be a setup for when Castro really checks out by fueling

speculation now and delaying an official word of condition they will buy time when he actually dies to implement a succession.

[Marie26]

13. Or maybe he really is checking out.

Castro is the center of the Cuban gov., & the political structure. He's an icon for the Cuban people. Since he's so important, he constantly needs to show that he is strong & stable to assure that Cuba stays strong & stable. Any hint of weakness, & some general might start thinking he can stage a coup. That's why I find it really odd that Castro hasn't appeared in public. I can't really see them doing this as a "test run," because Castro's disappearance would make his gov. appear unstable. I'm starting to think that Castro really is in extremely serious condition, or possibly even dead already. Really. Maybe they haven't announced it yet because they don't know yet who will really take sucession.

[Judi Lynn]

16. There were no photos issued after he fell and broke his knee and arm

and had to go into surgery after that event, nor did he show up immediately afterward in public to show everyone he was still there.

There are some very childish, feverish minds working overtime on this.

[Marie26]

19. The difference is,

he didn't transfer power when he broke his arm & leg. And he didn't transfer power when he went into surgery after that event. So, apparantly, Castro isn't in the habit of temporarilly transfering power whenever he has an operation. So why did he do it this time? In a dictatorship, one man has all the power. And he does everything he can to stop anyone else from taking even some of that power. Because once a rival gets power, he could stage a coup & take control of the country. If Castro "temporarily" transfers power, it's way too easy for that person to simply decide to keep it. That's why I cannot see Castro doing this voluntarily. Also, if it was done voluntarily, Castro would be sure to do it publically & personally to remove any doubts about the heir's legitimacy. But that wasn't done here - instead we get a letter & silence. Neither Castro nor his brother has appeared publically. Something's up there.

[Judi Lynn]

30. One small difference in the two surgeries: he remained conscious

throughout his knee surgery. Refused to take a general anesthesia.

You're not likely to see that in too many cases.

[Marie26]

61. So he transfered power

because he was going to be unconscious for a few hours in surgery? Doesn't Castro go to sleep every night? So I suppose he transfers power every time he goes to bed, or takes a vacation, or does something possibly dangerous? No. This is not an adequate explanation.

[Mika]

63. It looks like you are right.

A coup has to be underway. Fidel is dead or dying. Raul is in hiding.

How do we know this?

Because you have a theory.


Please, keep us posted.



;)

[Marie26]

65. Oh, I will.

The next time my secret CIA contact gives me an update, I'll be sure to pass it along.

[Mika]

67. Its good that someone here knows what is actually happening in Cuba.

:+

[Say_What]

62. So much speculation and NO FACTS to back it up...

Get yourself an education...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2438233&mesg_id=2438302

[Marie26]

66. Uh, how does that post

disprove anything I've said? It's a list of Cuba's top ministers. So... what?

[Mika]

68. Your theories are proof enough.

After all..

Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that
this Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that Raul didn't do this Raul didn't do that

[Marie26]

69. Now you're making

no sense at all. If you think this is wrong, it's helpful to present contrary evidence, or other plausible explanations. Posts to a list & comments like "Raul didn't do this," & "get an education"? Not very helpful.

[Mika]

70. Just as helpful as your theories.

Of course, your surmising that there is a coup underway because we haven't seen Fidel's scar or Raul speechifying is the real deal. Very helpful.

:+

[Say_What]

73. The MiamiGusano Terrorist organisation CANF

is calling for a coup.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14157374/

[Marie26]

74. So what?

That's the deal w/a message board, right? People can present their own interpretation & views on world events. I wasn't aware that this particular interpretation is forbidden on DU, but it's starting to look that way. I don't care if people want to post why this is wrong, or what makes more sense. It might be totally wrong. But I don't get why people feel the need to attack & demean w/o any helpful comments of their own. I guess that's DU, though.

[Mika]

76. Who said ANYTHING about forbidden commentary?

I see nothing here that suggests any such thing.

I, for one, am enjoying seeing your posts. Do continue. Its good fiction. :thumbsup:

[Say_What]

77. Calls for Uprising Get Little Response in Cuba

A coup is just another wet dream by those gutless wonders the MiamiGusanos. Fidel's favorite nephews, the Ditzy-Balistic brothers, and their pal the SheWolf must be foaming at the mouth as we write.

<clips>

MIAMI — Exhortations from exile groups and the Bush administration for Cubans to seize the moment of Fidel Castro's illness to end communist rule have stirred little reaction there, and some analysts say the thinly veiled calls for a pro-democracy uprising could undermine prospects for change.

Cuban American exile organizations and conservative politicians have appealed to Cubans to reject the Communist Party succession plan and demand free elections.

Cuban American National Foundation Chairman Jorge Mas Santos appeared to be urging a military coup on Wednesday when he said senior officers of the Revolutionary Armed Forces and civilian officials in Havana should schedule a multiparty vote and free political prisoners.

"There are many in the military and in government ranks in Havana who do not accept the transfer of power to Raul Castro. This is our rally to those brave men and women," Mas Santos told reporters at Versailles, the Cuban restaurant in Little Havana that has become a command post for exiles impatient for change in their homeland.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-agitate5aug05,1,6062985.story?coll=la-headlines-nation&track=crosspromo

[Marie26]

81. And obviously,

I must be a member of the CANF to think that maybe Castro isn't doing too well. Paranoid much?

[Say_What]

71. Do you read what you write???

From your post:

"...In a dictatorship, one man has all the power. And he does everything he can to stop anyone else from taking even some of that power. Because once a rival gets power, he could stage a coup & take control of the country."

Like I said get an education...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2438233&mesg_id=2438302

[Mika]

75. Oh come on now, Say_What. Nothing beats a good theory..

.. based on fiction. I can't wait to see how Marie's novella progresses.

How big is Fidel's scar? Just where is Raul? Who is their sister talking to? Who's staging the coup? Will Basulto do a fly over?

Positively scintillating. I'm about to pee my pantalones.. I just can't wait for the next installment.

[Say_What]

79. Particularly when it's so close to what's being cranked out of

el exilie radio and El Nuevo Herald. LOL ;-)

[Marie26]

78. Are any of those people the leader?

Patiently waiting.... no. Castro is the only head of state, and the only commander in chief. Where's that Congress? There's no Congress. He is the leader & embodiment of the Cuban government. Obviously, any country is going to have lots of people running the banks, armies, towns, etc. That doesn't change the fact that Castro is an autocrat, w/absolute power. He's also a major personality in Cuba - an icon. He is loved by people who have never known another national leader. Given all this, he needs to be seen in public soon to reassure the Cuban people & stop the rumors. But he hasn't done that. Your rude, obnoxious, posts don't change the facts here.

[Say_What]

80. Correct, no congress, but they do have a PARLIAMENT

You really must get an education.

[Robbien]

83. I am sorry but your posts are just nuts

Castro is the figurehead. He has a whole government behind him. Cuba does business with all the Central and South American Countries, plus many EU and Asia countries. The only people left out of the loop is the US who keeps telling its citizens that Cuba is isolated and poor and the Cuban people are just aching to rise up. What a bunch of propaganda.

The biggest threat to Cuba and Castro is the US. When Castro goes, the change in government will be smooth and business will go on as usual. If the US keeps its greedy hands off the place.

[Marie26]

85. See, this is what's weird

I haven't said anything about how poor, out of the loop, or aching for democracy the Cuban people are. And I agree that the biggest threat to Cuba is the US, & especially the draconian, unfair economic sanctions the US has imposed. So you're making a lot of unwarranated assumptions about my beliefs & my point. My only point is that Castro is a supreme figure, & much more essential to the gov. than a normal elected President. He is the leader for life, unelected & unremovable. He is a dictator, however much good he might do. And like any dictator, he's got to guard against people who might want to depose him. That's why he should be establishing more of a public presence than he has so far. And that's what isn't computing for me. I don't really know if a different gov. would be a good thing or a bad thing. It just seems like it's coming.

[Robbien]

86. I believe the absence from the media spotlight is deliberate

for both Castro and Raul. Castro could be dead, or no longer able to be the figurehead. Raul is just waiting to see if the US funded moles inside the government will make a move to take over the government during this time of transition. During the media blackout he will take care of any potentional usurpers and then come out and take over the reins of government.

But Cuba will go on as before. No revolution no nothing because the people of Cuba are not jonesing for one.

[Marie26]

91. I never said there'd

be a revolution. I said Castro is most likely dead or dying, despite media reports to the contrary. And it seems like you agree.

[Robbien]

94. Yeah, I do agree. He is in his eighties,intestinal leakage is a big deal

at that age. He is either dead or hanging on. Since the Cuban medical community is really great I wouldn't take any bets on where he stands on the scale.

Raul is running the show and he has tight control, knows what he is doing and has a plan. The business and the citizens seem just fine with the transfer of power. They don't seem worried a bit, just kinda sad their Castro may be lost to them.

[killbotfactory]

23. Raul is probably at his brothers bedside.

[Marie26]

24. All the time?

So distraught that he can't even release a statement or announce his brother's condition? No. There's more to this.

[killbotfactory]

27. Maybe he is in hiding making sure the US isn't about to pull something off

which ends up getting him killed?

[Foolkiller]

10. My guess is that Castro is dead or pretty close to it . . .

The events to date in Cuba strongly suggest that a fierce internal struggle is now going on and that Raul's absence from the airwaves is ample evidence that he is definitely not in control and cannot muster even a temporary consensus.

Politics in dictatorships rely heavily on the nuances of public appearances to demonstrate who has power and who doesn't, information that is crucial to provide direction for those who are part of the ruling system but not part of the inner circles of power. Dictatorships require a public face of unchallengeable unity and cannot withstand public displays of infighting. For that reason, the #1 priority for any would-be successor are fawning public appearances and blanket media coverage focused on him in order to demonstrate to all that he has emerged as the unchallenged center of power. It is all orchestrated, and none of it is "news." If others share the stage, this means that the struggle is continuing but is stalemated and a public face of collective unity is necessary to prevent the regime from collapsing for lack of someone in control. But eventually there must be a Number 1.

Sometimes the struggle is over quickly - Gorbachev quickly solidified his preeminence after the death of the puppet Chernenko who was a nonentity used as a place-holder by the competing power brokers while they carried on their internal battle. After Gorbachev's emergence, the media switched to all-Gorbachev all the time. Similarly, Hua Guo-feng (remember him? No one does) was Mao's appointed heir, and his appearances and utterances blanketed the airwaves, newspapers, etc. But he was quickly shoved aside by Deng Xiaoping who managed to organize a stable coalition behind him and emerge triumphant in the inner circle, then quickly and publicly threw out and humiliated the Gang of Four, his principal opponents. Appearances in the media tracked closely the rise and fall of this power struggle.

By contrast, in North Korea, there was no clear successor to Kim Il-sung. The presumptive heir, Kim Jong-il, was rumored to be dead for years because he so rarely appeared in public after his father's death, indicating that it took a very long for him to actually consolidate control. All public acts, including coverage by newspapers, etc. - have that enduring purpose. Now coverage of him dominates the NK media every day.

Sometimes there's a stalemate, so a collective leadership emerges for a while as the struggle continues and all of the key players appear collectively in the media. After Lenin's death, it took Stalin - who was far from the most powerful of the factional leaders (Trotsky was #!) - many years to consolidate his power as he eliminated his rivals one by one. Public appearances of the leaders gradually narrowed until there was only one left. Similarly, after his death, a group emerged publicly which was gradually whittled down as it took Khrushchev about 3 years to eliminate his rivals. Then the public focus was on him all the time.

So, in Havana, I don't see any other explanation that links all of the facts to date other than that a behind-the-scenes power struggle is raging. 1) The original fake letter - after the fact, not before, so obviously cooked up in a hurry. A letter on the central subject fin a dictatorship - who is in control? - and from a charismatic leader used to preening on TV? It's almost funny. How about a message on Castro's blog site? Clearly, he himself would have made the announcement beforehand if so momentous a decision as a "temporary" transfer of power were intended. (I know of no other example where a dictator voluntarily surrendered power, even temporarily. The entire base of their rule is that they alone rule. They're either indispensable or dispensable). 2) The subsequent phony statements attributed to Castro - again no direct confirmation - in an effort to repress the growing speculation. Anyone could - and almost certainly did - put them together. The speculation could be ended at once by having Castro on screen, even if not speaking, even if in bed. Tito ruled from his hospital bed without interruption and after he had had a leg amputated while he was in his 80s. Again, necessary for the preservation of power. No "temporary" transfer there. 3) Raul's non-appearance in public, when the highest priority in transitions is to secure a prominent public appearance and be presented as the unanimous heir and thereby signal to all that the struggle is over. Given that Raul is obviously having trouble in achieving this crucial goal after so many days, it's a strong indication that he is not in control, that other powerful contenders are active, that they are fiercely battling it out among themselves, and that they are so factionalized that they can't agree even on having Raul or anyone else as a figurehead while they continue the struggle in the background. If a group photo ever emerges, that means there's a stalemate. A blank means that even an interim solution can't be arrived at.

[gorekerrydreamticket]

12. I think you are right...

Most likely of stomach cancer. Who ever heard of a dictator ceding complete power to someone else? They just don't do that.

[Auntie Bush]

14. Excellent essay! All makes sense but I guess we'll have to wait it out.

Where did you get all that information?

[Judi Lynn]

98. He got it from a very right-wing writer, and here's her bio.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathryn_Jean_Lopez

http://inside.c-spanarchives.org:8080/cspan/Pictures/Persons/1007581/1007581-185199-02.jpg

[Marie26]

17. Great post!

Why do you think that the media is swallowing this letter appointing Raul Castro w/o question? If Raul Castro hasn't formed a consensus that he's the leader, why was he able to release that letter? Is it possible that this might even become a civil war? I think you should post this as an OP - it's excellent & really explains all the odd circumstance surrounding Castro's condition.

[Foolkiller]

22. To be honest . . .

I think the chances of civil war are unlikely. This isn't like Iraq or Afghanistan where there are factions with milleniums-old hatred of each other. I think terrorist-style activity is a possibility if Fidel supporters are shown the door, but I think it would be minimal.

As for the letter, I'm not certain why it was released. My guess is that right now, Raul wouldn't be able to release another one.

[Judi Lynn]

102. More on the author of your post:

Kathryn Jean Lopez has been featured in Playboy* and praised for her "editorial daring."

An award-winning opinion journalist and editor, Lopez is the editor of National Review Online and an associate editor at National Review (a.k.a. National Review on Dead Tree).

She is a graduate of the Catholic University of America in Washington, D.C., where she studied philosophy and politics. Before standing athwart history at National Review, she worked at the Heritage Foundation, the conservative think tank on Capitol Hill. Besides National Review and NRO, her work has appeared in the Wall Street Journal, the Washington Times, The Women's Quarterly, The National Catholic Register, Our Sunday Visitor, American Outlook, New York Press, and The Human Life Review, among other publications.

Lopez has appeared on CNN, the Fox News Channel, MSNBC, and oxygen and is a frequent guest on radio and TV shows internationally. She speaks frequently, often to high-school and college groups.

She writes often on bioethics, religion, feminism, education, and politics, among other topics.

Lopez's reporting subjects are as diverse as feminist indoctrination in the Girl Scouts to the politics of human cloning and racial reparations and daily Beltway politics. You can read her nearly hourly at NRO's weblog, The Corner — where she is better known as "K-Lo."

Lopez can be e-mailed at [e-mail]. She is a constituent of Hillary Rodham Clinton. Both Lopez and Rodham Clinton wish otherwise.
(snip)

http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MTE2NTAzOTk0MjkxYTQxNGM4NzA5ZWVjOGUwZTcwYzM=

A list of some of her other articles:
http://www.nationalreview.com/lopez/lopez-archive.asp

[killbotfactory]

26. Raul is the VP and assumes the presidency according to the constitution

since Castro is to ill to resume his duties.

Just like in our own country.

I doubt there will be a civil war, or any other traumatic event. If Castro dies I doubt there will be any violence, they will most likely be paranoid that the US is about to pull something off in the Island, while transitioning peacefully to the next president the National Assembly elects.

[Marie26]

28. No, he is NOT the VP

He is the Minister of Defense. The Vice-President's name is Carlos Lage, & there's no indication that he's taking power at all.

[killbotfactory]

38. Apparently there are many VP's in Cuba

President Fidel Castro
First Vice President Raúl Castro
Vice President Juan Almeida Bosque
Vice President Abelardo Colomé Ibarra
Vice President Carlos Lage Dávila
Vice President Esteban Lazo Hernández
Vice President José R. Machado Ventura

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_State_of_Cuba

:shrug:

[Marie26]

39. LOL

Kind of messes up the sucession process, doesn't it? And maybe that was the point. W/that many vice-presidents, there's no apparant #2 in Cuba. Meaning there's no obvious second choice to take power. There's only Castro. That's my point about how a dictator maintains power. He doesn't want a #2 who could eventually overtake him. That's why I find it very hard to believe that Castro allowed Raul to take power temporarily over a simple surgery.

[Yupster]

135. General Arnaldo Ochoa

was quite the Revolutionary hero and was well loved by the army. eading the Cuban Army in Angola, he even defeated the South African units he met in southern Angola. His star was sure rising, but he was taped saying that Fidel was sending Cuban boys to die in far off wars which was the end for him.

Revolutionary justice was swift. Even with Raul asking for leniency, Ochoa was killed by Revolutionary Firing Squad in July, 1989.

The crime was "drug trafficking." Wink, Wink.

[Judi Lynn]

99. No, he should post it as an article by a very right-wing author.

http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MTE2NTAzOTk0MjkxYTQxNGM4NzA5ZWVjOGUwZTcwYzM=

Very popular, apparently, with some visitors to D.U.

[Foolkiller]

21. Thanks

But there are a lot of people who think that way.

A few years ago, I was able to get into Cuba as part of an international delegation for an NGO. They have VERY tight control on media and foreign visitors, and it's very hard to meet or speak with people who are not in the pocket of the Castro regime. So good information is hard to come by.

But make no mistake -- there are political factions in Cuba that want to change the direction of the country. People on the street (and political prisoners in jails) of course, but also "elites" who see democritization and better relations with the U.S. as the key to prosperity for their country. Raul and those who support him are Fidel's supporters. They want to hold onto the status quo, but there are other powerful factions at work who have time and history on their side.

[Judi Lynn]

31. There are DU'ers who have been all over Cuba in rented cars, on bicycle,

going with friends who live there, and with companions from the States. You can rent RV's, motorcycles, bikes, probably roller skates, if necessary.

Everything these DU'ers wrote would indicate they are free to wander wherever and whenever they wanted.

If you've been at DU long, you would have read their comments.

[Spazito]

40. Gosh, Canadians don't seem to have any big problems....

Could it be only Americans who are friends of the anti-Castro cabal in Miami that run into problems? Canadians travel quite happily in Cuba, business invests there, etc, I wonder why there seems to be a difference?

[Robbien]

52. I tend to believe Stratfor's take on the situation

The absence of the brothers has led to speculation that a military coup could be under way in Havana. While Raul, the muscle behind the Castro regime, has done an exemplary job of purging it of potential threats, there exist a number of dissidents who have been anxiously waiting for the Cuban dictator to pass away so they can obtain control of the country at long last. The Cuban military has mobilized, and communications between the island and the outside world have been shut down. Though the eerie silence in Cuba has led many observers to believe the Castro regime has been overthrown, the strong backing Raul receives from the Cuban army contradicts this theory.

This would not be the first time in history that an ailing leader has been propped up for an extensive period of time while a political transition takes place. Fidel is already dead or likely close to death -- gastrointestinal bleeding is no joke, especially for a nearly 80-year-old man whose diet for most of his life has consisted of Cohiba cigars and fine rum. While "El Comandante" approaches death, Raul's disappearance may be meant to create the illusion of a leadership vacuum as the Cuban regime waits to see if anyone moves to fill it. Only a limited number in the Cuban hierarchy are privy to the plans for succession, and when those in charge detect who is and isn't loyal to the post-Fidel regime, a major crackdown will ensue. The Cubans are particularly implacable against those who they suspect are traitors -- witness the 1989 trial and execution of legendary Cuban Gen. Arnaldo Ochoa Sanchez. When the coast is clear, Raul may very well come out and address the nation to announce the death of his brother and take up the leadership mantle.

http://www.stratfor.com/products/premium/read_article.php?id=271614&selected=Analyses

[Judi Lynn]

54. Interesting.Thanx for the look.Many of us don't subscribe 2 Stratfor's.n/t

[Robbien]

55. Stratfor lets you get in free if you come in from Google

It only allows you to read the one article, you can't access the rest of the site. But you do get to read the entire article linked by Google.

[Judi Lynn]

58. Thanks a lot. Looking forward to learning how to do this! n/t

[Say_What]

64. That's what the Gusanos *guessed* to... HA HA wrong again....

it's been the Gusanos wet dream for decades that Fidel is either dead or close to death. Meanwhile, all his old enemies are showing up regularly in the El Nuevo Heralds obits.

BTW, DU rules state that copyrighted material must be accompanied by a link and no more than three paragraphs from the article.

[Marie26]

72. Nope

I don't care what the gusanos think, & I half-hope Castro made it just to spite them. It's interesting that people will jump into attack mode rather than simply debate the issue. Based on this rather lame reply, I guess there wasn't much to dispute. BTW, DU rules require that LBN posts have the actual headline of the article, but that didn't stop you, did it?

[Akim]

108. Painful As It Is to Acknowledge It, Fidel's Time on Earth Is Finite

Painful as it is to acknowledge it, Fidel's time on earth is finite, and we must be prepared for the day when he departs this world which he has so infinitely enriched with his life and example. Fidel Castro has been the moral compass of an entire era. Only Nelson Mandela can be said to have equalled him in the scope of his achievements and the expansiveness of his soul. It is possible, although I've made no calculations, that Fidel has saved more lives from wretchedness than the U.S. has sunk into wrechedness these last 50 years. What a noble life! What a glorious epithet!

But, let us not be writing epithets yet. Fidel Castro's personal physician said some weeks ago that he expected him to live to 140.

Fidel has already outlived three generations of gusanos. He may yet bury them all.

In any case, the Revolution will never die, and it is the distilled essence of Fidel, Che, Raul and all the other revolutionary heroes and martyrs.

[Say_What]

111. Fidel and Mandela...

Only Nelson Mandela can be said to have equalled him in the scope of his achievements and the expansiveness of his soul. It is possible, although I've made no calculations, that Fidel has saved more lives from wretchedness than the U.S. has sunk into wrechedness these last 50 years.

I'm sure you are aware of this speech by Mandela in Cuba in 1998, but I'll post it anyway for those who might be interested. Great posts, btw. and welcome to DU. :hi:

<clips>

Speech by President Nelson mandela at the Banquet in Honour of President Castro of Cuba
4 September 1998

President Castro
Your excellencies
Ladies and Gentlemen

You will not need my words, Mr. President, to sense the special place that the Cuban people occupy in the hearts of millions of South Africans. That you will know from the warmth of their welcome when you joined us four years ago for the inauguration of our democracy, and from today's rousing reception in our Parliament.

If today all South Africans enjoy the rights of democracy; if they are able at last to address the grinding poverty of a system that denied them even the most basic amenities of life, it is also because of Cuba's selfless support for the struggle to free all of South Africa's people and the countries of our region from the inhumane and destructive system of apartheid.

For that, we thank the Cuban people from the bottom of our heart.

Because your support has also come through teachers, builders and doctors whom you sent to our continent and through the training of many South Africans in your schools and universities, we are still reaping the harvest as we rebuild our country.

Inasmuch as Cuba was a home from home for many South Africans during the dark night of our oppression, we now welcome you home to the sunshine of our freedom.

As the beneficiary of international solidarity that helped make it a member of the community of free nations, democratic South Africa is proud to be amongst the majority of nations who affirm the right of the Cuban people to determine their own destiny, and that sanctions which seek to punish them for having decided to do so are anathema to the international order to which we aspire.

http://www.anc.org.za/ancdocs/history/mandela/1998/nm0904.htm




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There is also a book of Mandela and Fidel's speeches from July 26, 1991, at a rally of tens of thousands in Matanzas, Cuba.

[Akim]

116. Thank-you, Say_What

Thank-you, Say_What. Glad to be aboard.

At this moment, of all moments, it was especially poignant to re-read Nelson Mandela's praise of Fidel.

It is gratifying that these two moral giants knew and loved each other.

[Judi Lynn]

133. Thanks for showing the cover of the book. What a title! Wonderful. n/t

[martymar64]

112. Epitaph, not epithet (Word Police Alert!!!)

I'm sure you meant what will be written on his tombstone (epitaph). Epithet, is an insult, usually racial.

That is all.

[Akim]

114. Forgive My Mispelling. It was 5:20 in the morning.

Forgive me. It was 5:20 in the morning. It was probably a Freudian slip on my part since I was writing about two men who are the bane of racists, Fidel And Mandela.

And look, I spelt "bane" right!

[martymar64]

119. That's cool! Welcome to DU!

I like the way you think. Keep it coming!

[Judi Lynn]

97. I can see why you didn't name the author to your piece.

She's very, very, VERY right-wing. Here's her bio. from Wikipedia:

Kathryn Jean Lopez, (born March 22, probably 1976), a native of Manhattan, is an American conservative columnist, who is nationally syndicated by the United Feature Syndicate/Newspaper Enterprise Association. <1> She is also the editor of National Review Online. <2>

Her nickname on National Review Online's group blog "The Corner", is "K-Lo", a wordplay comparing her name to the actress and singer Jennifer Lopez ("J-Lo").

Lopez graduated from The Catholic University of America in Washington, D.C., where she studied philosophy and politics. Before joining National Review in New York, she worked at the Heritage Foundation on Capitol Hill. Besides National Review and NRO, her work has appeared in the Wall Street Journal, the Washington Times, The Women's Quarterly, The National Catholic Register, Our Sunday Visitor, American Outlook, New York Press, and The Human Life Review, among other publications.

Lopez writes often on abortion and bioethics, religion, feminism, education, politics. Of NRO's writers, she tends to be the greatest defender of "culture of life" issues from a Catholic perspective, and argues for adherence to traditional Catholic dogmas, such as Natural Family Planning for birth control. She also advocates conservative leadership within the Church, and was a supporter of the election of Pope Benedict XVI. One of the running jokes on The Corner is her dislike of mentions of Star Trek, mainly because it leads to juvenile digressions, but also because (at least in the original series) it posits a future without religion.

She was a strong supporter of President George W. Bush's reelection bid in the 2004 Presidential election campaign. On the day of the election, when afternoon exit polls showed Bush losing, she relayed information from Bush campaign insiders that indicated the poll methodology may have been faulty. Afterwards, she supported preventing Arlen Specter from replacing Orrin Hatch as head of the United States Senate Committee on the Judiciary during the period between the 2004 elections and the beginning of the new Senate term in January of 2005. Later in 2005, Lopez attacked the Supreme Court nomination of Harriet Miers. She strongly opposes gender quotas.
(snip)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathryn_Jean_Lopez

http://inside.c-spanarchives.org:8080/cspan/Pictures/Persons/1007581/1007581-185199-02.jpg

and here's the link to your writing, published in National Review:
http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MTE2NTAzOTk0MjkxYTQxNGM4NzA5ZWVjOGUwZTcwYzM=

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You should probably realize a person like this has an agenda.

[Marie26]

101. ...

[Foolkiller]

25. By the way . . .

there is another possibility:

Castro might not even be sick at all. He might have just been the victim of a coup, and the coup leaders decided that the best way to transition to their leadership was to say that Castro was dead or incapacitated in a hospital.

As Raul is obviously a supporter of his brother, his absence from public view lends some credibility to this idea.

Although I think it is unlikely.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

36. Also, he might have been abducted by aliens. n/t

[Ilsa]

33. "Generalísimo Francisco Franco is still alive, or not dead!"

Oh, were those the good old days?

[Garbo 2004]

41. Yeah, I remember that. Especially SNL's take off on Franco's condition. nt

[Yupster]

136. Same with Tito

he was dead or not dead for months.

[Judi Lynn]

42. Cuban vice president: Castro will be back at work in a few weeks

Aug. 7, 2006, 12:28AM
Cuban vice president: Castro will be back at work in a few weeks

By ANITA SNOW
Associated Press

HAVANA — Cuba's vice president said Sunday Fidel Castro would return to work in a few weeks after intestinal surgery that forced him to hand over power temporarily to his younger brother.

"Fidel's going to be around for another 80 years," Vice President Carlos Lage said. Castro turns 80 next Sunday.

Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez said Castro was out of bed and talking following his surgery as messages wishing the Cuban leader a quick recovery poured in from Latin America's leading leftists and Elian Gonzalez.

Lage, in Bolivia to attend the country's constitutional assembly, was asked by reporters when Castro would be back at work.

"In a few weeks, he'll be recovered and he'll return to his duties," Lage said.
(snip/...)

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/world/4098564.html

[Garbo 2004]

44. "Some Doubt Castro Will Return to Full Role"

Some Doubt Castro Will Return to Full Role

By REUTERS
Published: August 7, 2006

HAVANA, Aug. 6 (Reuters) — Fidel Castro was recovering from surgery on Sunday, Cuban officials said, but some said they did not know whether he would ever be strong enough to return to full power...

...Cuban officials, seeking to allay suspicions that Mr. Castro had lost his grip on the island nation he had dominated since his revolution in 1959, insisted in brief statements that he was recovering from surgery for internal bleeding. But they said he might have to reduce his workload.

The National Assembly president, Ricardo Alarcón, said Mr. Castro came through the complicated surgery so well that a few hours later “he was talking, he was making jokes.”

“That’s why I feel confident he will recover very soon,” he said, adding that Mr. Castro would have to slow down. He spoke Saturday night in a radio interview broadcast in Miami, home to 650,000 Cuban-Americans and the center of opposition to Mr. Castro.

A midlevel Communist Party official in Havana said on Sunday that “Fidel is definitely out of intensive care and doing as well as can be expected for his age, though no one knows exactly where he is, what he has and if he will ever resume all his activities.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/07/world/americas/07cuba.html?ref=americas

[Judi Lynn]

45. Cubans offer numerous prayers for Castro

Sunday, August 6, 2006 · Last updated 3:16 p.m. PT

Cubans offer numerous prayers for Castro

By ANDREA RODRIGUEZ
ASSOCIATED PRESS WRITER

HAVANA -- Cubans are publicly praying to the African gods of Santeria, the saints of Roman Catholicism and the God of Protestant faiths in appeals for the health of ailing leader Fidel Castro and peace on the island.

Profoundly spiritual, many Cubans never put aside religious beliefs, even during three decades when the Communist government was officially atheist and religious believers of all kinds were viewed with suspicion.

Now many Cubans are turning to their faiths for comfort and hope with government leaders warning of foreign invasion, calls from abroad for democratic change and no sight of their ailing leader for nearly a week.

"All those who have something to do with the spiritual life should ask for the health of people, in this case of the Comandante Fidel Castro," said Alfredo Trujillo Pena, a babalawo, or priest of Santeria, a faith blending African and Roman Catholic traditions.
(snip/...)

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1102AP_Cuba_Prayers_for_Castro.html

[Akim]

126. Even Atheists Are Praying for Fidel

There was a very touching letter in "Granma" recently about a young woman who said that she didn't believe in God but would pray for Fidel's recovery anyway.

[NewSpectrum]

47. One Cuban That Says It Best.......

[EFerrari]

49. I think Hugo gets up every morning and over breakfast,

thinks, how am I going to piss off Junior today?

:evilgrin:

[Judi Lynn]

50. Photos of visitors to the Elián Gonzalez site in Little Havana.

Free at last!

[robcon]

60. It appears that Chavez has joined in the propaganda.

He's become a press agent for Castro. Castro's brother says nothing. The Cuban press gives vague a description of the ailment and no information on the type of operation, and Chavez goes along.

What an ass!

[rayofreason]

82. Where is Mika?

Normally on any thread related to Cuba the indefatigable Mika is there contributing volumes of text claiming that Fidel Castro is just a figurehead, that Cuba is actually a multiparty democracy, not a communist dictatorship, with grassroots power working its way up through the legislature according to the Cuban Constitution that guarantees freedom of expression for all.

What crap.

As Castro lays in his hospital bed, most likely dying, the truth of the mater is plain to see. If he were not a dictator who had ruled Cuba with a iron fist for decades no one would be talking about "succession" or "coup". Post #52 presents a very cogent analysis of the situation. It also mentions Arnaldo Ochoa Sanchez. He was a hero of the Angolan war (remember Cuban troops in Angola?). The Wikipedia link is here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnaldo_Ochoa

Years ago I heard of an incident in the 80's in which Ochoa walked into a posh Havana restaurant frequented by the nomenklatura. Upon entering, a number of people stood and applauded. Raul Castro was there that night. No wonder they got rid of Ochoa with trumped up charges and a firing squad.

I can't wait to read Mika's take on the Cuban situation. It should be quite entertaining.

[Robbien]

84. Mika is right, and so are so many other informed DUers

Only the uninformed believe the propaganda crap coming out of the US media.

Despite Castro's transfer of power and uncertain prospects, Canadian companies don't expect big changes in the near future

TAVIA GRANT

From Wednesday's Globe and Mail

Canadian companies are keeping a close eye on the temporary power shift in Cuba, but experts say little will change in the short term and U.S. policy is likely to have a greater impact in the long run than a new leader.

Canada is the Caribbean country's fourth-largest trading partner, and businesses from travel agencies to meat exporters will be monitoring any developments after an ailing Fidel Castro transferred his duties to his younger brother Raul on Monday night.

Canadians are by far Cuba's most numerous visitors -- more than 600,000 flocked to its beaches last year. Trade between the countries is worth about $1-billion, according to Statistics Canada, with Canada exporting machinery, vegetables and newsprint and importing nickel, fish and, of course, cigars.

"For us, it's business as usual," said Michael Minnes, spokesman for Sherritt International Corp., a natural resources company that's the largest foreign investor in the country. "We see Cuba as having a competent and capable government in place and we believe that they're doing what they need to do to manage the situation."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060802.wxrcuba02/BNStory/Business/

Only the uninformed US population believes Cuba is a nation of people just iching to take over the government. Oh wait a minute, to the uninformed US population there is no government, just Castro. Only Castro. Bah.

[rayofreason]

87. We shall see...

...won't we?

My position is that Castro is a dicatator, and I have no use for dictators of any stripe. Your position seems to be that Castro is not a dictator. When the charismatic dictator is no longer on the scene we shall see what happens over the next couple of years.

[Robbien]

88. I believe that any opposition to the government by Cubans is banned

But other than political speech, Cuba has a pretty free and open society.

Heck, here in the US anti-GOP speech is being attacked as un-patriotic and the media is controlled by the corporate elite. People are being arrested for wearing anti-war t-shirts, printing non-sanctioned stories on government activities and just acting "not normal" around the VP.

Instead of giving Democracy to Cuba, they should work on giving Democracy back to the American people.

[robcon]

89. This is a laughable case of hero-worship

"But other than political speech, Cuba has a pretty free and open society."

Other than free speech, free press, ability to vote for someone other than the current president, ability to run for office against the incumbent, the right to free assembly, the right to petition the government (Varela Petition sponsors got from 20 to 25 years in prison), right to a free trial, right to travel within the country without permission, etc., it's a FREE COUNTRY.

Like the Italians said of Mussolini (he kept the trains running on time), many apologists for Castro talk about health care, (as if that substitutes for these basic human rights.) The apologists will do anything to change the subject from political and human rights in Cuba.

That "other than political speech" quote is a classic for DUers who support democracy... 'other than that how did you enjoy the play, Mrs. Lincoln?'

[rayofreason]

90. Well said.

[Robbien]

95. Since the US is going in the same direction

and I am stuck here, yes I sometimes justify why I do. Some things are still okay.

Probably the same reasoning the Cubans do, except they have more justification because their education, heathcare and access to economy is better than ours.

[muryan]

106. Thank you.

finally someone who can say it better than me.

[Judi Lynn]

107. Oh, but you're still a winner, yourself.

[stepnw1f]

124. Which Really is Not Saying Much At All

Have you read the numerous posts refuting the right wing's propaganda?

[Akim]

109. Castro Era Will Be Known as "The Peace of Fidel"

When will the carping of Fidel's critics end. The greatest human rights abuses that have taken place in Cuba in the last 47 years occurred at Guantanamo and the Cuban government had nothing to do with it. It is well to remember that Cuba has been in a state of war with the U.S. for nearly half a century. In time of war, it is sometimes necessary to limit the rights of some in order to preserve the rights of all. Lincoln abolished habeas corpus by presidential fiat and ordered opponents expelled from U.S. teritory. No one, I think, except the most rabid racists, would criticize him for it today. In hindsight, we can see that Lincoln did what he had to do to save the Union. Fidel, too, did what he had to do to save the Revolution.

It is a testament to Fidel's humanity and his abhorrence for bloodshed that so few people suffered in any way from the measures instituted to safeguard the Revolution. For 47 years, Fidel Castro's rule has been characterized by his reluctance to resort to violent means to solve internal problems unlike other Latin American leaders. In Cuban history, the Castro era will be known as "La Paz de Fidel" .

[Chris W]

92. 'But other than political speech'

What sort of place would DU be if America was more like Cuba? Maybe we'll find out when GWB is in charge for 45 years.

Foolkiller, I read that essay too, and though I liked it and can understand why you didn't link, you probably should edit.

[Marie26]

93. He's been tombstoned.

Sort of ironic, when you think about it.

[Mika]

113. I'm right here.

I'm just loving watching the squirming and mewling by DU's Cuba "experts" who have never even set foot on the island, let alone watch a Cuban electoral cycle, who search for and post CANFerous wingnut theories that read like a cheap novella.


Where's Fidel? Why haven't we seen his scar? Where's Raul? How long for the coup? Who is Juanita Castro talking to? Why won't she say so? (Is she afraid of being bombed out of her business in Miami if she says? Duh.) Where are the masses of Cubans rising up to get Condi to install the transition plan? How long before those macho heroes of the CANF, currently heroically mounting the con leche stands on sw8th st, take up arms to help restore a Cuba B.C. style demockracy? LOL. Will Basulto put planes in the air to strafe tourists again? What does Gloria E have to say?

Inquiring minds want to know.

:+

[mountainvue]

96. He must have gone under a

few days ago then.

[Judi Lynn]

100. I did a search. His last entry was last night at 10:54 p.m.

Earlier he had invested his time trying to libel Scott Ritter in another forum. He was a busy guy.

Swift things are beautiful, aren't they?



R.I.P.

[cigsandcoffee]

115. Are the "Gusanos" the folks on homemade boats escaping to the US?

That's not really a cowardly act braving the seas like that, but I can't help but wonder why they just don't take one of the many available commercial flights to Canada.

Any ideas why these Gusanos risk life and limb on old rafts instead of just flying coach?

[Akim]

117. They Are Deluded Economic Migrants, Not Gusanos

Why did Milo sail in a barrel from Iberia to Hibernia?

Perhaps he only had a barrel.

The deluded economic migrants who take to sea from Cuba are the hapless dupes of the homicidal Cuban Adjustment Act.

Unlike political exiles, they usually return to Cuba within a year for family visits.

They don't really oppose Castro but have been lured to the U.S. by the religion of consumerism.

They are deluded economic migrants, but not gusanos.

Gusanos are the CANF-loving bomb-throwing Alpha-66 types.

[cigsandcoffee]

121. I presume the "religion of consumerism..."

...means they aren't satsfied with those state-distributed Chinese-made rice cookers, and would prefer a bit more economic opportunity.

Fools. (rolling eyes) Don't they know Cuban health care is superior?


Anyway, I apologize for breaking in like this. I'm one of those folks who believe that Cuba is an oppressive 50-year cult-of-personality dictatorship (and soon to be a monarchy), and find the Canadian and European tourists who travel there looking for a bargain to be complicit in a crime against humanity.

[Akim]

125. Cubans Do Migrate To Canada (and Thence Here)

Many Cubans have immigrated to Canada, or used Canada as a gateway to the U.S. They are economic migrants, not political exiles. Of course, the situation would be much better in Cuba if the U.S. trade embargo were not sucking the blood from Cuba's economy. It is unfortunate that this government thinks that starving their stomachs is the best way to win the hearts and minds of Cubans. Why don't you condemn this barbaric behavior?

The only "monarch" in the Western Hemisphere is Queen Elizabeth II. You know, the old lady that you Canadians put on your coins?

[Mika]

118. Because they don't qualify for a legal immigration visa.

Cubans are granted special immigration perks that are offered to no other immigrant group seeking entry into the US.

Immigrants come to the US from all over the world - from democratic countries. They come here for opportunities to earn more money than they could back at home. They come to work so that they can send a little of their earnings back to their relatives. It has little to do with "despotic' regimes, it has more to do with earning power.

Cuba is a special case though, in that it is the US's Helms-Burton law (and a myriad of other sanctions) that are intended to cripple the Cuban economy. This is the stated goal of the US government, as evidenced by the Bush* admin's latest 'crackdown' on family remittances to Cuba and increased sanctions on the island and US & foreign corporations that seek to do business with Cuba.

The USA currently offers over 20,000 LEGAL immigration visas per year to Cubans (and Bush has announced that the number would increase despite the fact that not all 20,000 were applied for in the last few years). This number is more than any other single country in the world. The US interests section in Cuba does the required criminal background check on the applicants.

The US's 'wet foot/ dry foot' policy (that applies to Cubans only) permits all Cubans, including Cuban criminals and felons, who arrive on US shores by illegal means to remain in the US even those having failed to qualify (or even apply) for a legal US immigration application.

Cubans who leave for the US without a US visa (if caught at sea - mainly in smuggler's go-fast boats @ $5,000 per head) are returned to Cuba by a US/Cuban repatriation agreement. But IF they make it to US soil, no matter who they are or what their criminal backround might be, they get to stay in the US and enjoy perks offered ONLY TO CUBAN IMMIGRANTS (via the US's Cuban Adjustment Act and a variety of other 'Cubans only' perks)

For Cuban migrants ONLY - including the aforementioned illegal immigrants who are smuggled in as well as those who have failed a US background check for a legal visa who make it here by whatever means - the US's Cuban Adjustment Act instantly allows any and all Cuban migrants who touch US shore (no matter how) instant entry, instant work visa, instant green card status, instant social security, instant access to welfare, instant access to section 8 assisted housing (with a $41,000 income exemption for Cuban expats only), instant food stamps, plus more. IOW, extra special enhanced social programs designed to entice Cuban expatriation to Miami/USA.

Despite these programs designed to offer a 'carrot on a stick' to Cubans only, the Cubaphobe rhetoric loop repeats the question "why do Cubans come to the US then?".

First the US forces economic deprivation on Cubans, then open our doors to any and all Cubans illegal or not, and then offer them a plethora of immigration perks and housing perks not even available to native born Americans.

But yet, more immigrants come from Mexico and the Latin Americas than do Cubans, and they have no such "Adjustment Act" like Cubans do. But they still pour in.

Plus, Cuban immigrants can hop on a plane from Miami to Havana and travel right back to the Cuba that they "escaped" from for family trips and vacations - by the hundred of thousands annually (until Bush's recent one visit every 3 yrs restrictions on Cuban expats living in the US).



Recognizing the immorality of forced starvation and forced economic deprivation is a good reason to drop the US embargo on Cuba, the US Cuban Adjustment Act, and the US travel sanctions placed on US citizens and residents. Then the Cuban tourism economy (its #1 sector) would be able to expand even faster, thereby increasing the average wage and quality of life in Cuba. It would make products, goods, and services even more accessible to both Cubans and Americans. It would reduce the economic based immigration flow from Cuba. And it would restore our own constitutional right to travel unfettered to see Cuba for ourselves.

[cigsandcoffee]

120. Thanks for the primer on the Cuban economy.

But it didn't really answer the question. Why risk life and limb on cobbed-together boats to make it to Florida when they could just comfortably fly in to Canada or Mexico? I'm sure those countries welcome Cuban tourists, if not immigrants.

[Judi Lynn]

128. Canada and Mexico don't offer them food stamps, housing, social

security, instant legal status with no risk of being chased down and deported which happens to people from every other country who enter illegally.

Speaking of "cobbled boats," of course you are ignoring the tide of boats from Haiti, the Dominican Republic, which travel far, far greater distances to try to make it to the States, and THESE people are thrown in jail the moment they are caught and deported. They die in great numbers in the ocean during their trip, which is up to 900 miles from Haiti, as opposed to the 90 miles from Cuba.

HUNDREDS DIE ANNUALLY in the attempt to cross the border from Mexico to the United States. These HUNDREDS of lives lost annually are, of course, unimportant, as they are not Cubans, apparently, to some self-important clowns Miami who see the whole world revolving around themselves, but the rest of us are very much aware of them.

[Mika]

129. Ingesting too many cigs & coffee could make one overlook that 2+2=4.

As if Canada or Mexico don't have legal visa processes. :crazy:

[Spinoza]

130. The lord be praised!

His Royal Highness, King Fidel is recovering. Even after a glorious 47 year reign our beloved King will not yet have to lay aside his sceptre and lead the glorious Revolution in Heaven. His loyal devoted subjects are fainting with ecstacy and joy. His enemies, the Usurpers in The Miami are gnashing their teeth in rage and sorrow. His brother, Prince Raoul, while ready and willing to assume the Purple and strike (as he has done before) the Homosexual Unbelievers, is offering a Te Deum in thanksgiving for the wonderful news. The lord be praised!

Duke Hugo will be joining Prince Raoul in the Te Deum.

[MisterP]

131. oh no, he's two steps ahead of our President!

[DemCapitalist]

132. "Fidel Castro, a hug for you, friend and comrade..."

Priceless...