Degrading lyrics lead to early sex, study says

[RamboLiberal]

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06219/711663-51.stm

Common sense says exposing children to sexually degrading song lyrics cannot be a good thing. Now, a multiyear study of teen sexual behavior and listening habits, led by a researcher in Pittsburgh, is setting out to prove it scientifically.

The Rand Corp. study, released today, shows that the more often teens listen to sexually degrading songs -- marked by obscenities and stereotypes of women as sex objects and men as sexual predators -- the likelier they are to have sex at an early age.

A sex drive is, of course, a natural thing for adolescents, the study notes, but engaging in intercourse too early can lead to unwanted pregnancies and sexually transmitted diseases, or STDs, making the matter a public health concern.

"People have been concerned about the sexual content of music lyrics for decades. The concern is not new," said the study's leader, Steven Martino, a psychologist in Rand's Oakland office. "What's new here is that we conducted a study that as closely as possible establishes a connection between the type of music kids listen to and their sexual behavior.

"It's a natural thing for teens to be interested in sex, learning about sex, experimenting with sex and what it is to be sexual at this age. ... What concerns us is kids may be having sex before they're ready for it, or in contexts or situations that are less than optimal," Dr. Martino said.

[napi21]

1. Maybe parents have to talk to their kids at an earlier age?

HAH! Ya think????

Education about how you get pregnant, and how to avoid it is very important to teach to fairly young kids. I think 9 years old is about right.

I have a 9 year old grand daughter, and I can tell you, DHE would understand if it was explained right.

[winter999]

60. That's part of the article's point.

Not that you should ban the music, but to talk to your child and let them know it's not acceptable for boy's to treat girls like sex objects and girls should expect to be treated as people. Parents need to listen to what is going into their kids' heads. It is NOT just about children having sex before they're prepared, but ALSO about teaching kids to respect themselves and their peers. What is the message kids get? Yo, bang some mutha-fuckin' ho's beotch.

[Kire]

2. Scientific?

How's that work?

Where's Frank Zappa when you need him?

[Drifter]

51. Indeed ... Frank Zappa

Since most songs are about love, If lyrics have behavioral influences, everyone would be falling in love.

I paraphrase terribly.

Cheers
Drifter

[winter999]

61. I need to find your radio station (or video channel).

My pop station plays mostly party music. Bitches, Drugs, and Guns, Yo.

[Posteritatis]

96. Mine's a mix of local stuff and classic rock, mainly

The "bitches, drugs and guns" demographic is limited to whichever one of Nickelback's ever-so-varied song they decide (Nickelback has many, many song, but each of it is identical to the rest of it so I can never tell the difference when they switch from it to it), the local acts are a mix of rock and medium-hard pop, mostly innofensive or locally-themed stuff. The rest is whatever relatively big names there are in the rock scene, or whichever major act's coming to perform in town (currently the Rolling Stones). There's some misses, but generally speaking the music's great. And, well, they air Little Steven's Underground Garage on Sundays.

They also refer to the local Clear Channel station as "that other, crappy station" on air, since they're no longer allowed to refer to it explicitly by name.

I love these guys. ;)

[customerserviceguy]

85. Lyrics do have behavioral inflences

Think about how many people feel like losers because love songs tell them they're not enough by themselves. Love songs really do encourage codependancy.

That said, a household that lets kids listen to this anti-woman trash is not going to tell a kid why it's a good idea to refrain from sex for as long as possible.

[MrSlayer]

3. I guess my kids are fucked.

No pun intended.

[niyad]

4. just WHO funded the study? and gee, do you think that a culture

saturated in sexual images, and a total lack of sex education (abstinence-only misinformation) just MIGHT have something to do with teens having sex, NOT just the lyrics of songs???

[Viva_La_Revolution]

5. I second that...

they kept these kids completely away from TV and their friends... right?

idiots.

[Crowskie]

6. Is it possible

that the type of child who engages in sex early on is the same type who listens to such music? To me, that seems to be the more reasonable explanation of the parallels.

[niyad]

7. welcome to DU--you honestly don't think the lack of education, the

saturation of sexual images, has anything to do with it? there would be, after all, a reason that a child would be inclined to be sexually active.

[Crowskie]

28. My view is that the cause is

the conflicting messages between media and society/government are to blame is the sexual stupidity that is present in many people. My girlfriend's school's sex education, for instance, consisted of "Don't do it." and "Protection doesn't work, so just don't do it." She knew people that didn't have the slightest clue how sperm got from the male to the female. It is no surprise that her school also had a fairly high pregnancy rate. Media can influence, but there are more than enough ways for a parent to protect their child from something they feel is damaging. All I know is that some of the most explicit moments(can't think of a better way to put it, lol) were at high school during lunch hour and in the locker room(for the record, I'm talking about conversations :)). If anything, the main reason most give in, in my experience at least, is peer pressure. We always had the "don't give in to peer pressure" speeches in Elementary school, but they never bothered to really even explain what the hell it was. They never even addressed how you could inadvertently put pressure on someone. Hell, I still am not sure most people I dealt with in that time period of my life realized that the people around them where thinking and feeling human beings.

My point is, there are so many certain causes of early sex and teen pregnancy that need to be addressed before wasting time and effort on what comes down to a chicken or the egg scenario. IMHO, at least. Teach kids how to make the decision responsibly, let them know the consequences outside of someone getting pregnant or getting an STD. Let them know the statistics on the outcomes of the lives of those who become pregnant or father a child at an early age. Find people to share their experience in being forced into adulthood at 15. Let them know of the complications sex can create in a relationship. There are SO many things there that kids are completely unprepared for and blindsided by that are just not addressed. Media, to me at least, is pretty low on my ideal list of priorities for fixing the problem in question.

[sendero]

48. Welcome..

.... to DU :)

[Erika]

9. Where is the role of the parents in this

The parents I know monitor the access. Faux TV has some of the most raunchy programs out there.

They teasing then preaching abstaining?

[PSPS]

8. Another twisted "study"

You can go either way with many of these "studies."

Instead of lyrics causing sex (alone a laughingly ridiculous "finding,") who says it isn't girls with an already-developed sex drive "causing" them to like the songs?

[Teaser]

10. Have you even read the study?

If not, how can you comment intelligently on it?

[western mass]

25. Don't need to read the study...

to be 100% sure that it does nothing more than show a correlation (not causation).

Rand Corp seems to do alot of these crap studies (tv watching leads to teen sex!!) that are more about supporting an agenda than drawing scientifically useful conclusions.

[sofa king]

88. And we don't need to read the study to know...

...that the news article about it incorrectly and selectively reports major details, because that's what all science articles written by non-science journalists do. This one is no exception, for this simple reason:

That article spends a lot of time discussing what sort of lyrics were considered "degrading." But there is not one sentence describing a causitive relationship between that degrading music and sexual behavior. It simply asserts such a relationship without explanation.

That would get your ass failed in any science class in any middle school in America.

If this is such an important study, its importance is that for the first time it shows that lyrics in music cause people to do things they wouldn't otherwise do. As Oderus Urungus once pointed out to Joan Rivers, someone who would emulate the behavior described in violent music is, "probably a very disturbed person in the first place." By the same token, people attracted to raunchy music just might be attracted to sex in the first place.

So I'd sure as hell like to know how that mechanism works, because a judge decided it wasn't true when Judas Priest was on trial, and unless I read something that explains otherwise, it still ain't true now.

[Gormy Cuss]

41. No reason to bother reading it.

The study's lead author is a specialist in adolescent psychology, used acceptable scientific methods to conduct the research, published the results in a journal where it could be peer reviewed, and was funded by NIH. It was a three wave longitudinal study with a nationally representative sample of youth.
It's obviously bullshit.:sarcasm:


I find it interesting that the conclusion is that sexually degrading lyrics were linked, not any lyrics with sexual suggestion or content. The study looks sound enough and it will be interesting to see if other studies replicate the finding.

[Posteritatis]

81. Are you in the field, or otherwise in a position to read the study?

I'm curious, both at the specific lyrics they target (like you said, specifically "degrading" ones rather than merely suggestive or erotic ones) and the overall fundings of the study in non-press-release-ese. On the other hand, as far as psychology goes I'm one hell of a layman ("three wave longitudinal study?" Wha?), and don't have access to the journal at the moment anyway.

I should probably improve my jargon-fu for psych and a few other fields, but that's not an overnight thing.

[Gormy Cuss]

91. I'm not in adolescent psychology, but I have the background to understand

the methodology and findings. The jargon in a nutshell is shorthand for saying that there is nothing inherently fishy about the study and that the study results are worth noting. "Three wave longitudinal" means that the same youth were interviewed three times over a period of several years. The first wave is a baseline survey (establishing where the youth were in terms of sexual experiences,among other things.) The researchers took care to establish a study sample that mimicked characteristics of youth nationwide in terms of sexual experiences and core demographics such as gender and race/ethnicity. The subsequent two interviews were used to measure changes as the youth grew older.

It is important to note as some have down-thread that the results are correlations and that the authors have not established a causal link. The latter would allow one to say "degrading lyrics lead to earlier sexual activity." A correlation shows that there is a relationship between the two, but doesn't establish whether the lyrics alone make the difference. Here's a snip from the article:

"Our results suggest that the relationship between exposure and behavior may be causal in nature, because we controlled for teens' previous sexual experience, as well as factors like parental monitoring, religiosity, and deviance; however, our correlational data do not allow us to make causal inferences with certainty. If the relationship is causal, listening to music with degrading sexual content may have important public health and other societal consequences, because those who initiate sex early have more STDs and unplanned pregnancies.5 It is important to point out, however, that at the time of the third survey, about half of our sample had become legal adults (18–20 years); initiation of intercourse in this group would not be considered early according to US norms and might be considered healthy.

http://intl-pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/118/2/e430

[Posteritatis]

93. Ahhh, I see; thanks! I'll read it later today. (n/t)

[sofa king]

89. Show it to me.

Show me the study, and if you already know, show me where it says this causes that, rather than, people who do that also do this.

The two are not the same thing, which is why you still can't (or maybe I should say shouldn't) throw some guy in jail on drug charges just because he has a Grateful Dead sticker on his car.

[Gormy Cuss]

92. Feel free to read the study yourself.

See link in my second post.

It's a strong correlational result, not a causal link. Strong correlations are useful because they point to potential causal connections for further investigation. For example, long before any causal link is established with diseases or medical conditions researchers find correlated factors. If researchers note that among smokers the rate of lung cancer is much higher, that's a correlation, and if it's a strong correlation it bears investigation for a causal link.

In other words, correlations aren't bullshit, they're clues. In the study discussed here, the authors make it clear that the correlation was very strong but not enough to prove a causal link.

[sofa king]

99. Okay then, we're on the same page more or less.

My issue is mainly with the news article in question and, as I suspected, it's completely full of shit.

The abstract you provided is a lot less assertive about the issue. In fact, this sentence alone seems to suggest something else may be afoot:

It may be that listening to popular music, regardless of its content, results in heightened physiologic arousal that, through a process of excitation transfer,61 incites sexual behavior among teens.

Ooh. Maybe that's the secret: don't stimulate the teens.

Better knock off the boy bands and Britney, too. And summer action pictures. And while we're at it, maybe we'd better outlaw roller coasters, since they seem to be the root cause of excitation transfer. We'd better burn down the observatory so that we don't get hit by any comets, either.

But I have a feeling that if you kill off popular music and roller coasters, the kids will just start fucking after a zesty session of hoop-and-stick. That's what they've always done, and that's what they'll always do.

[Gormy Cuss]

100. The authors are using appropriate caution but the correlation was strong.

It's also another indication that the researchers were trying to present the results without spin.
Strong correlations are not as easy to dismiss as weakly correlated factors. The authors were also clear that the correlation was on a subset of sexual lyrics, those that they categorized as demeaning, not based on all sexually suggestive lyrics. That's quite a bit different than the broad swipes against popular music lyrics (or Grateful dead stickers, to use your example.)

My initial post was a reaction to the number of posters who were calling bullshit without even looking beyond the news article. There are lots of trashy 'studies' out there but just because we disagree with the results it doesn't follow that the study was flawed.

[Guaranteed]

22. Or a completely different factor causing both teenage sex and

the teens' musical choices.

[winter999]

62. Yeah, like their total lack of self-respect or respect for their peers.

[LibDemAlways]

11. I'm the mom of a 13-year-old and I'd like to know

where the popular groups are who don't include a bunch of profanity and sexual references in their songs. My daughter's current favorite boy band is made up of a quartet of teenagers who sing about lap dances, addiction, and getting "a better fuck." It's a long way from the Stones coyly suggesting "Let's Spend the Night Together." I let her go to a recent concert of another popular group after looking over their lyrics and finding nothing too raunchy. Then at the show (I stood in the back) the lead singer let loose with long strings of expletives, throwing out t-shirts every time he swore. He repeatedly referred to the audience - consisting of mostly 12-17 yr olds - as "you motherfuckers." I was not happy.

I think kids who are going to have sex are going to have it no matter what's on their ipod. No substitute for good, solid, truthful information imparted early and reinforced frequently.

A word to parents about what the kids are listening to, though. Pay attention and, if you don't like it or think it's inappropriate for your kid, don't be hesitant to shut it down. Parents are still the ones responsible for setting and enforcing limits.

[Erika]

15. Yep. n/t

[Endangered Specie]

20. Try these ideas

One could spend a month of sundays making a list... of 'clean' or 'dirty' popular bands, but here are some general ideas instead to try:

1 - Look for "explicit lyrics" stickers on the album cover, I dont know the exact requirements to get one, but Id wager that 99% of the cd's with that label don't get them because they said 1 more naughty word than allowed.

2 - Alot of kids download off the internet, you too could use this as a tool, if you know the name of the artist/song/cd you can always download it to see what it sounds like.

3 - OR if thats not your cup of tea, take the same artist/band/song/cd name, attatch the word 'lyrics' and search for that on google. Odds are too you might get a picture of an album cover on the "image search"

4 - you can also use wikipedia at en.wikipedia.org

5 - There are dozens of websites that archive song lyrics, just google 'lyrics' and have at it.

The all knowing internets will tell you what you want to know, you just gotta know how to look for it :) good luck

[Posteritatis]

82. Careful with googling lyrics

Most lyrics sites - some huge majority of them, that is - tend to be loaded down with spyware. I use Firefox and have a few other anti-malware programs so I'm largely safe, but someone who uses, say, IE on an older system should be careful.

As an alternative, one can usually get lyrics, or at least song samples, from the bands' own pages.

[Endangered Specie]

90. Hmmm, guess I forgot about that

since I do use Firefox with an aresnal of anti-virus/spyware/crap and firewalls.

so, too add to my recommendations...
dicth IE :)

[Posteritatis]

94. That too, yeah

Lord knows the stuff popping up on a computer that hasn't been anti-malwared for a few months is likely to be more psychologically damaging than off-color lyrics. ;)

(I admit to a certain level of detached amusement at one I saw once - just a popup that came up randomly, completely innocent visually, but it had an embedded mp3 saying "I AM LOOKING AT A GAY PORN SITE!" at high volume. Now picture that popping up in a cube maze.)

[endarkenment]

64. "profanity and sexual references " - reread the article.

The study refers to sexual degrading lyrics, not to your way broad category. Oh and the stones went way beyond coy shortly after their earlier 'spend the night together' repetoire.

[Skittles]

79. parents have a tough job these days

very tough

[daleo]

12. Correlation is not causality

It sounds like questionable social science to me.

"The study, which first appeared in this month's edition of the scientific journal Pediatrics, was funded by the National Institute of Child Health and Human Development and performed by researchers from Rand Health, a health policy research group. The scientists were based in Pittsburgh, Santa Monica, Calif., and Los Angeles."

[ugarte]

13. They said the same thing about rock'n'roll 50 years ago

and have been saying it ever since, in one guise or another.

[progressivebydesign]

44. Today vs. 50 years ago. Apples vs. Oranges.

The difference is that although rock 50 years ago seemed outrageous for the social times, it was.. even then.. mild. It's frustrating the people don't get it. The music now.. well it's not just a matter of being youth vs. adults on what's acceptable, it's the fact that the music now IS actually far beyond unhealthy. The music 50 years ago, while it talked playfully about teen romance, that was it. The music now depicts gang rapes, rape, irresponsible sexual behavior, violence, etc. There is NO society in which that should be entertainment. People miss the point when they accept the lame argument that teen music has ALWAYS been something adults don't approve of. This is not the case now. The music that is becoming a steady diet for millions of kids is destructive and graphic. It's not old vs. young, it's about a billion dollar industry that peddles in racist stereotypes, degradation of women, and glorification of violence. Do not be confused. It's not about stuffy adults, it's about greedy corporations exploiting the industry.

[heliarc]

47. Old songs

I'm a little skeptical that you knew a lot about music back 50 years ago. There are very famous folk and rock songs with lyrics that are downright chilling and very very dark. It is arguable that songs like these are just as "morally" bankrupt as the songs which choose to use off-color language... For example... two songs from 40's recordings at the Library of congress...

To the Pines

The prettiest girl I ever did see
Was killed one mile from here.
Her head is in the driving wheel
Her body never was found.
To the pines, to the pines, where the sun never shines
Gonna shiver where the cold winds blow.

Or this one...

he conductor said with a nod of his head
“My wife she never knew
That I take my fun when I'm out on my run
So bring me a quart or two”
Of good old mountain dew
For those who refuse it are few
But his wife said to me, “You can bring me three
By the time his train is due.”


That last song sounds a little like "Crunk Juice." And I'm not even getting into the Johnny Cash stuff. Whether or not drinking, rape, simulated rape, sex alone or violence is in a song is not necessarily a function of history. Its certainly a function of your perception.

[ugarte]

75. Like video gaming, a lot of today's music is misogynist and hyperviolent

but what's the solution? Censorship?? I'm not even sure you could censor it in an internet age, when all you need to make a professional recording is a home computer and the right software, then post it on a website for downloads.

It's a problem we'll have to live with it, until we can change the society that breeds it.

[heliarc]

78. I don't like this talk of "today's" music and culture

stuff... The Marquis Desade was writing all manner of atrocities in the 1700s. If he had video game technology, I daresay he might have used it. Pornography, Erotica, and other Fantasy and Roleplaying are a part of the cultural life of humanity regardless of historical component. More interesting is the fact that real atrocities like Abu Ghraib and other forms of Psychosexual torture are exposed, and parallel to the exposure there are all manner of campaigns to censor FANTASTIC or REPRESENTATIVE expressions of psychosexual rage: expressions which just as well might be considered therapy for the pathologies of many abused and desperate people. The Campaigns to censor are an absurdity. It is made all the more an absurdity for consenting adults who practice wild, rough or humiliating Sexual play at home and with consenting partners. The latter are often very strong willed people whose appetite for arousal is different than many but still perhaps very enlightened.

Yes, the internet age is "TERRIBLE" ... for allowing anyone with a home computer to make a professional recording. The reality is very different I'm a professional recording engineer) but I won't go there...

So "ANYONE" can make a recording and distribute it? Perhaps what we see more of is the lumpen's rage, and the proletariat's disgust with their own world and the masters that shape it. The anger and desperation in a lot of music is ripe, this is true. Why censor it at all? Something tells me that the visibility of this kind of rage tells the world a lot about the poverty and weaknesses of the political structure. I hope it tells us enought to change it for the better.

People who deceive the American people into funding torture, are the real criminals. Not musicians.

[Guaranteed]

23. Same thought came to me. The headline seems misleading. nt

[readmoreoften]

30. Just like the correlation between global warming and the number of pirates

It's true! I saw it on a graph!

http://www.seanbonner.com/blog/archives/001857.php

[daleo]

68. I love that graph

It says so much.

[TomInTib]

14. ...is early sex before the 6 p.m. news...I am so confused...there is

just so must stuff to abstain from that do not even know where to start...sigh...

[Justitia]

16. Well, Led Zeppelin, Aerosmith & The Stones definitely did it for me! LOL

"Stairway to Heaven" is still a fond teenage memory for me - ha.

[ugarte]

19. You must have listened to it backwards

and heard the Satanic message. :)

[Phredicles]

17. I want to know HOW this study was conducted...

Did they, like, have two groups of kids, and had one group listen to Barry manilow and the other listen to, uhh, whatever it is kids are listening to these days (Look, I'm 41 and have no kids of my own. But I'm sure it sucks).

[WindRavenX]

18. isn't this the same shit they said about Elvis + The Beatles+ The Stones?

:eyes:

different decade, same BS.

[imouttahere]

21. A few sample lyrics from years past.....

"she's my little rock and roll, ah-hah, my tits and ass, with soul, honey!" Rolling Stones

"Black girls just wanna get f*cked all night, I just don't have that much jam!" Rolling Stones

"Why don't we do it in the road?" Beatles

"We're going to get high, high, high, in the midday sun" Paul McCartney

and my personal favorite

"and she makes you wanna scream, wishing you could get inside her pants" The Romantics

Granted, todays lyrics are more graphic, but really, what's the difference???

[GoddessOfGuinness]

35. I thought "Why don't we do it in the road"

was referring to piss...

[KurtNYC]

54. And the very term "rock and roll" is a euphemism for intercourse

[imouttahere]

72. Excellent point, Kurt...

anytime I hear the guitar licks from just about any good rock song, I think of sex - especially stuff like Mountain's "Mississippi Queen" or Ten Year's After's "I'm Going Home" just to name a few.

[Chulanowa]

24. Anything to absolve bad parenting.

Your daughter's pregnant / Son's a father? Not your fault, blame Ludacriss!

Your child dropped out of school and is running a drug ring? Blame William Jefferson Clinton!

Your child has no clue how to read or write? Blame public schooling!

Your child answers to everything with violence? Blame Beavis and Butt-Head!

Your child isn't a perfect Christian in every way like you are? Blame CAIR!

Parents, no matter your delimma, rest assured that it is not your fault for not giving your little slab of human veal some "home training". No, it is the fault of the entertainment industry, the liberals, and the Muslims for making your child the little piece of social garbage that he is. We don't fault you for it - Who has the time for all that "raising a child" shit anyway?!

[B3Nut]

36. That last paragraph

sounds like it could have come straight from Jello Biafra. Brilliant! Read that in your mind with Jello's bitingly sarcastic tone in mind...it's perfect!

I love a good rant with my morning coffee.... :hangover:

Todd in Beerbratistan

[imouttahere]

55. Bravo, Chulanowa!

The most successful parents I have observed are those who were involved in their children's lives from the time they left the womb. Then, when they are 10 and have questions about why Sir Mix-A-Lot sings about big butts, the children trust their parents completely to explain these things. I remember having a healthy fear of getting a girl pregnant - not sure where it came from, but it could have something to do with the fact that my parents were always there for me, to answer questions, to participate in activities with me/us, etc. With the current climate, it's almost as if you have to take a "can't beat 'em, so I'll join 'em" approach. Laugh about these things with your kids, then explain that there are consequences for their actions. It's not brain surgery - I like to call it "participatory parenting" and frankly if you don't have time for it, why did you have kids in the first place. At the very least you adjust your lifestyle to do it!

[winter999]

65. If you had read the article, you would have found that what you

said is exactly their point. It's up to the parents to listen and discuss with their children. If kids only hear one side, i.e. "bang that ho", how do you expect them to grow up respecting others? I don't expect the radio or MTV to teach my kids values, but they sure can teach them how to party!

[Rex]

26. Who would have guessed that

24/7 music videos of nearly nekked women and guys singing something like, 'ride the pony' while the women fuck a pole or just shake their butts up close at the camera.

What should people expect?

[HuffleClaw]

27. bwhahahahaha what utter bullshit

their grandfathers would have blamed comic books, their fathers elvis/the beatles and now this crap.

[regnaD kciN]

29. You got it...

I always thought that it was exposure to comic books that caused our daughters to not save themselves for their wedding night! :crazy:

[Up2Late]

31. But I bet songs about Divorce, Prison, and sticking a Boot up someone's...

...ass or O.K.! :banghead: :grr: :crazy:

[melv]

32. Zappa!

"I wrote a song about dental floss, but did anyone's teeth get any cleaner?" -Frank Zappa

[Lance_Boyle]

38. no, but

he sure did a lot to advance the erotic art of tweezing. ;-)

[Vinca]

33. What bothers me the most about much of current popular "music"

(other than the fact 99.9% of it's crap and 99.99% of the groups will be unknown in 10 years)is that suddenly it's the norm for women to be regarded only as sex objects, violence is routine and profanity is mandatory. I'm not saying a mature audience isn't entitled to watch the stuff, but it's dished up for pre-teens. The message they get is everything in the video must be okay because it's on the tube. (Oh geez, and to think I vowed never to take up Tipper Gore's cause.) Parents, you have my sympathy.

[LibDemAlways]

39. You just summed it up perfectly.

When I was in the 8th grade more years ago than I'd like to think about there were plenty of harmless bands that appealed to young teens. Today that genre is dead. Even songs without much profanity/violence are promoted via sex-soaked videos, and the between-songs banter at concerts is a barrage of 4-letter words. It is a minefield out there for parents trying not to have their kids exposed to too much too soon.

[progressivebydesign]

46. As a parent, I thank you Vinca, for your post!!!

And yes, as the parent of a teen girl, it IS difficult! The messages the kids get constantly is.. be sexy, dress sexy, hear about sex, watch movies where everyone sleeps with each other, oh.. but don't have sex. Even if your kid doesn't listen to music like that, mine doesn't thankfully, they are surrounded by kids who do. And teens are basically imitators of everything they see and hear from tv, music, and friends... so even if your kid doesn't partake in that degrading media, the trends sweep through the schools.

We talk about that stuff a lot, and it helps to point those things out to her.. but still.. it's there.

[NotGivingUp]

57. You are SOOOOOO right! I can't stand the way women are portrayed

on TV. It's pitiful.

[KansDem]

77. Take a look at the magazines, too!

My 14-year-old daughter has brought home magazines where the women all look like whores and hookers! What happened in the 40 years since "women's liberation?"

[Posteritatis]

83. Is that actually a change?

Was it at all like that with the 99.99% of previous bands who also vanished into obscurity? The big names we're going to remember for awhile are known quantities, to me at least; what about their competition which were found wanting?

I'm asking out of genuine curiosity - I was born in 1981 and know very little about the one-shots and brief fad groups from the mid-eighties on back. (And the place I grew up in was big on traditional music anyway; I could recall Great Big Sea or Rankin Family songs from a bar or two before I could recognize anything "contemporary.") I lack(ed) both the pop-culture awareness and the simple span of memory to know what the whole music scene was like in, say, the seventies or sixties.



These days I try to pick up a new genre every few months, mainly because I pride myself on listening to a bit of everything, but also because as I do so I find there really is something in just about everything worth listening to. (Currently taking a poke at African hip-hop, actually; Emmanuel Jal caught my eye because of this article, and I approve both of the style and the message. But I digress!) There's some pretty wacky stuff out there to say the least, but I've also noticed that there's a lot of good stuff - good both technically and otherwise - if you look around for awhile. That's even true for the popular stuff.

That still doesn't mean that I'm preparing to get generation-gapped by one of my younger cousins' taste in music when she visits the family for a couple days later this week. ;)

[Raine]

84. I agree

and I can't help but think that it comes from some deep hatred toward women. :-(

[lastliberalintexas]

95. I agree, it's the objectification that causes me problems

As well as the promotion of *violent and forced* sexual encounters.

I personally don't lump rape music into the same category as music which simply talks about consensual sexual activity, and I think that those on this thread who are trying to argue there is no difference between the 2 are being very disingenuous.

[chelsea0011]

34. These are usually the statistcal studies that are twisted to prove

a fact. How can this study possibly ever be proven? Most children are subjected to a little of everything in their lives. What's that? The eliminated group. And who are the kids who feast on porn lyrics. That must be the gangsta rap/Marilyn Manson group. That's the group we will show are acting out. And who's the control group? And what is the music and pop that kids who don't act out listen to. Religious music. This is a farce.

[Vidar]

37. Hormones lead to early sex; Degrading lyrics lead to cd sales.

Still hard not tosay record sales.

[progressivebydesign]

45. So you believe that teens are totally unable to be influenced??

Huh? Ever seen an Abercrombie & Fitch t-shirt on a teen? Teens are the poster children for being easily influenced. If you think that repetitive messages do not influence behavior, I suggest you tell that to the folks on Madison Avenue.

[winter999]

66. So I guess listening to degrading lyrics DOES NOT LEAD to

degrading treatment of women? "its just media reflecting what is today's society" - it couldn't be "media is shaping today's society".

[CoffeeCat]

40. I'll never forget this. In the car with my kids...

...we're listening to a top-40 radio station and we had the radio turned up because we liked the song. One song ends---and immediately, without warning--another song abruptly begins with the words, "I LIKE BIG BUTTS AND I CANNOT LIE..."

LOL! :)

I couldn't have switched stations if I wanted. Those words instantly engulfed the car and the ears of my 4- and 5-year old daughters.

I looked in the rear-view mirror and both of their mouths were hanging open.

I was slammed with an avalanche of questions, during the next 20 minutes in the car, "Mommy why would someone like a big butt?", "Mommy, did he really say 'butt'?", "Mommy why did that man say that about butts?", "Mommy, do you have a big butt?", "Does daddy like big butts when he cannot lie?"

LOL :rofl:

Needless to say, we listen to another station now.

[Craig3410]

43. Ah, sir Mix-A-Lot...

compared to a lot of songs these days, that's actually pretty clean. :crazy:

[LibDemAlways]

52. I wish "big butts" was all these kids heard. A couple of

years ago there was a novelty song called "1985." Radio Disney played a sanitzied version that eliminated the line "shake her ass." However, kids could go under the headphones in record stores to hear the original version - which is what I caught two little boys doing one night in the music section of Barnes and Noble - singing along to the song and snickering their little heads off.

My daughter listened to Radio Disney until she was about 10. Then she outgrew it, and there was nothing except the raunchy stuff that passes as music nowadays to listen to. Her current favorites, teenagers themselves, proudly proclaim themselves "a wet dream" on their hit album, and that's one of the milder lines.

[progressivebydesign]

42. Well, duh. Considering advertising is a billion dollar industry...

I find it so hilarious that people here on DU are doubting the repetitive, music-based, messages are altering kid's behavior. You're in denial, apparently. Gee.. can you sing the Burger King song from decades ago? "hold the pickle, hold the lettuce, etc."??

Can anyone without a personal agenda (ie listens to music that depicts hardcore sex) honestly say that listening to something repetitively does NOT influence behavior?? If you believe that then you need to study the history of advertising. That is WHY they have jingles to sell products, why teens dress pretty much the same, why they eat at certain fast food places.

I read about this study and they took into consideration parental involvement in the kids lives, etc. Sorry.. but it's the constant message that they're streaming into their psyche. I have a daughter going into 10th grade, and her friends will load songs onto her ipod. She removes the ones that we think are inappropriate.. One in particular has the lyrics.. "rape me, rape me, rape me, again". Really good stuff for developing kid's brains. How stupid can some adults be not to have the basic knowledge of science to know that teens brains are still literally in the development stage. Anything you put in now, actually becomes a permanent part of their brain's wiring.

Sheesh.. what's that great line from Parenthood? Keanu Reeves.. "any asshole can be a parent, but you need a license to own a dog!". 'nuff said.

[winter999]

67. I'm with you 100%. I think you can take this further by looking at

TV media and video games. Garbage in, Garbage out. For you septics out there, would you also argue that Junk Food had no influence over someone's weight? No, by your logic, it must be the person who is obese causes a craving for Junk Food instead of Craving Junk Food cause obesity.

[sendero]

49. Let me guess...

.. parents who don't let their kids listen to the degrading stuff have also taught their kids the larger implication of sexual activity.

Correllation does not equal causation.

[KittyWampus]

71. Ah, but the Causative Factor is INFORMATION. Information gotten via

repetitive messages in Media and information gotten via Parents.

Information about degrading sexual behavior gotten via repetitive messages in Media that is NOT counter weighted by information gotten via Parentsmost likely WILL have a Causitive role in shaping a teenagers attutitudes and subsequent behavior.

[0007]

50. Studies also show that WAR is not conducive to ones health

....dancing in the dark

[western mass]

53. "our correlational data do not allow us...

...to make causal inferences with certainty." To quote from the actual article by Martino et al, in the latest issue of Pediatrics.

But you wouldn't get that from reading the popular press version. *shocking*!

[Javaman]

56. "My big ten inch..."

"record of the blues"

Bullmoose Johnson 1949.

I know for an unclaimed fact the teens back then were openly copulating in public because of listening to this song.

Oy fucking vey.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

58. I can do them one better. It's proven that parents being too removed

from the actual process of parenting, and seeking scapegoats to blame when their child screws up and makes mistakes, lead to children experimenting unguided.

In a similar study there was evidence that parents may actually be responsible for the types of entertainment their children indulge in. Suggesting that if parents were to control matters on a household level we may never have to see another lame study about what leads children to make mistakes.

[lastliberalintexas]

98. Your study is screwy!

Who funded your study anyway? I mean, how on earth could you reach such a stupid conclusion as "parents need to be parents"? :)


That said, I do feel for parents these days. My child is still very young, but I will face this kind of music (and tv, video games, etc.) soon enough. Even if I monitor my child's activities to a reasonable extent, I have no guarantee that his friends' parents will as well. I can only hope that I am raising my son as a feminist who will be as appalled by this supposed entertainment as I am and one who will think that women deserve better than what so much of pop culture tries to dish at us.

[OregonDem]

59. I remember being a teen in the fundie church I grew up in

and being told that we were a wicked and evil generation cause of the music we listened too and because we didn't viciously hate gay people like previous generations did. And although we had the lowest teen pregnancy, crime and drug use rates in several decades we were so evil that we were going to bring about Armageddon even as world was experiencing the greatest amount of peace that anyone alive could remember. I realized later from those experiences that if there is one thing fundies don't like it progress.

[nealmhughes]

63. They said the same thing about bicycles: freeing the women to go off on

long rides alone with a young man...while they were selling "electric devices" for curing nervous hysteria (i.e., early vibrators) in every mainstreet US newspaper.
Then it was exposing the legs instead of hobble skirts and bustles...even though the bustle was an early attempt to cash in on a previous "I like big butts" craze...
Then it was jazz and the Charleston...race mixing was a certain result and promiscuous sexual activity...ignoring the fashions of the early 18th century which would make a modern matron blush at the decolletage and clinging commando skirts of the Napoleonic era.
Not to mention the immense "6 month old babies" who were mysteriously full term after being borne to parents married for only a few months after the birth....
The quaint New England custom of bundling which was actually an Old England rural custom....
There ain't nothing under the sun. Just new words for it.
What leads to sex? People wanting to have it and the privacy to conduct it.

[leesa]

69. I would think that your garden variety advertising for cars, clothes,

gadgets, whatever, probably has more to do with sexual behavior than anything. Sex and sexuality is encouraged EVERYWHERE. Why pick on lyrics? I don't know if it's good, bad or indifferent, but kids have a steady diet of sex and sexuality from birth from thousands of sources. It's our culture and it's become normal for us. How bout we tell the alcolhol industry to sell booze without sex?

[imouttahere]

73. Or how about parents actually paying attention to their kids....

and stop laying their sexual hang-ups and repression on their kids.

[ckramer]

70. You need two persons to make sex work

so lock up your daughter, and limit their interactions!

Just kidding but not completely.

I meant parents sure can control their kids behaviors if they determine to.

Controling who they can be friend with is an important one to start.

If there's a will, there's a way.

So I wouldn't blame the music CDs. Kids don't have to listen to those if parents don't allow them starting from a young age.

[superconnected]

76. "I meant parents sure can control their kids behaviors

if they determine to"

Sounds like you don't have kids.

[ckramer]

86. I do

Here is how I do it: Limited internet time, limited TV time, No Cable TVs sorry, lots of homeworks, play, readings, sports, parents guidance. The kid is doing pretty well.

The key is to do this when the kid is young and be consistent in principle. Don't wait until it's too late.

[ItNerd4life]

74. What about country songs like 'She thinks my tractor is sexy'?

Does it lead to more sex with tractors? Anybody know?

[devilgrrl]

80. They said this shit about Elvis Presley back in the 1950's!

Next!

:nuke:

[retread]

87. "Work with Me Annie" leads to "Annie Had a Baby, Can't Work No More."

*

[zann725]

97. It isn't JUST in music, it's ALL media...TV, movies, print media...etc.

People (mostly "old white men in power") have liked to pretend since they shemed Feminists into "silence" in the 70-80's...that Women WERE equal and treated with respect. That no special laws were needed to protect them.

Domestic violence (ala Nicole Simpson) and laws that followed, showed this aspect of sexism and violence against women had NOT changed...even in 21st century.

And the kind of rampant sexism, and violence against women STILL in the media, TV, movies, pop music...STILL trickles down to violence against similarly vulnerable children ).

The irony IS...if this same VIOLENCE in words and acts were shown in main stream media, masked as "enterainment"...but directed against say minorities such as African Americans, or had an Anti-Semitic slur of THIS same degree involving violence of words and actions directed against such other groups, it would be IMMEDIATELY picketed, banned, and CEASE.

While "violence" against Women is all part of the "American Value"..."Family Values" fabric for anyone to protest much. After all if women get angry about it (as Blacks or other minorities would justifiably)...Women would be shamed again into silence, or labled Lesbian, UN-family, or man haters. Tolerating violence and subjugation is part of the social and male dominance fabric.

Music's part in this perpetration of female hatred/violence is just a tip of the mysogynist social "iceberg."