250 rockets hit north; 80 hurt

[evox]

Record number of rockets hit north; 80 hurt

"Hizbullah fires 250 rockets at northern Israel day before ceasefire set to go into effect; man killed dozens injured. Haifa hit with three Khaibar-1 rockets; smoke seen billowing from Carmel area in city, seven fire trucks set ablaze in attack"

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3290729,00.html

[alcibiades_mystery]

1. Wow, the stepped up Israeli offensive seems really impressive

:eyes:

Maybe if they take over all of Lebanon with ground forces, they can get Hezbollah back down to 140 rockets a day!

Let's hope that Israel is, in fact, finished humiliating herself for the time being.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted sub-thread

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[Solo_in_MD]

5. What is never being told by the media is the firing locations

Are any being launched south of the IDF lines? That would be the real telling item, though I doubt they have access to that data yet.

The article cited non-Kaytusha rockets supplied by Syria. They are longer range with specific support equipment including launch vehicles. Their use also shows active Syrian support for Hezbollah. There has been some discussion of Hezbollah doing shoot and scoot in and out of Syria. The IDF has claimed some kills of units doing just that as well as Iranian RG being killed.

[zonkers]

6. I find it strange that real time satellite imaging on the locations and

movements of rocket launchers is not availible to Israel via U.S. intelligence. Or maybe it is available there is a deliberate effort not to take them out.

[Solo_in_MD]

7. Given the IDF fire finder radar, satellite imagery is not needed

But there is some inherent lag in the system that prevents instantaneous counter battery fire. The Hezbollah is also using the time honored shoot and scoot technique. They are rolling as soon as the last rocket leaves the rail well before the fire finders even know there is a launch

The IDF claims to have taken out some of the longer range rockets on the road, though unless they have a UAV or other aerial asset overhead, it would be impossible to track them leaving in real time.

[IntiRaymi]

38. They probably are.

A fast move north, with only 40 000 troops, would basically spread the IDF thin over terrain that is alien to them. Anything the IDF says at this point has to be considered as an extension of the overall neocon strategy of inciting a regional conflagration. The Hezbollah may or may not be using Syria as a launching pad for some operations, but to act on that information could be a grave error.
Don't trust anything said at this point. There is too much fog in the battlefield.

[DainBramaged]

3. Thank God these things were made by Acme

Imagine if they had a real guidance system in them.

[evox]

4. If that was the case

then I'm sure Israel would be in a much worse situation

[Solo_in_MD]

9. Then they would be called missiles

and the rest of Lebanon would be in ruins.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

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[cali]

14. Comparing

U.S. property owners to Settlers in the West Bank is patently absurd. And no I don't find much admirable in H'zbollah's tactics or political goals, and I didn't say that I did- anymore than I said that you supported the Israeli occupation of the West Bank. But I do think that to discount H'zbollah as merely a gang of thugs is terribly short sighted and shows a basic misunderstanding of the role H'zbollah plays, particularly in Southern Lebanon.

[silver10]

20. Yes, I guess I am shortsighted

to you since I cannot justify the means to any end, no matter how noble or great, and I am sorry I am not as sophisticated as you seem to be and cannot look beyond the terrible violence and cowardly terrorism of these hizbullah.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

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[IntiRaymi]

39. How many times will you have to repeat that, Cali?

I am sensing a definite, organized, motion to quash valid criticism of Israel by using the usual techniques.
Welcome to NetWars.

[cali]

42. I don't mind

clearly stating my position, and I don't feel intimidated by the poster.

[steely]

12. Confusion understood, but first, Welcome to DU!

I do not profess to be as wise as some other folks here, but I will offer the benefit of doubt in my reply, and hopefully attempt to shed some light into the intracy of the subject.

I agree that I would want my country to defend me if someone was hurling rockets in my city from a neighboring country.
The issue as I understand it however is somewhat more complex than many of us realize, were taught, thought we knew, or are aware of. With regard to your comments...

Fisrt, be careful of painting all Muslims with the same brush.
Next, some question the level of effort, however noble, with which Israel is responding - could be deemed overkill (no pun intended) given that their army has marched into another counrty (with all of the damage associated with such a move) - the motives and methods are debated by some.
Ties to US support at high levels are immediately questioned.
Also, things aren't so rosy over there, when you consider that Israel is actually occupying the Gaza Strip and the West bank, and in an effort to keep the peace for their own countrymen, the occupation is actually making life miserable for Palestinians - Muslim and Catholic alike.
If you rely upon the mainstream media for info, assume that there is a certain degree of propaganda/misinformation, so there is a lot I haven't learned yet.
Lastly, some folks here in DU - and I love 'em all - may be a little sensitive to others lack of complete awareness, and thus may think you're from the "other-side". Read more.

I am in no way condoning the classic terrorist attacks - I do however question the methods which are in current use to reach a peaceful conclusion. It's just not as simple as any of us think.

[silver10]

16. Thank you for you response

But my opinion is as "confused" as anybody else's here. We all think we're right. My opinion is that if Israel keeps getting pummeled and terrorized, what the "right" response is is not for us to judge since we're not the ones living in a land were every where you turn, a rocket is falling or a bomb is being blown up. A good analogy of this is like those repugs who support the war but by no means would ever go over and put their precious bodies in the way of a possible road side bomb, or any other harm.

If "they" stopped hating the Jews and all the terrorist acts, my opinion as that the Jews in turn would not, unprovoked, send suicide bombers over to these Muslims/Arabs/hizbullah, whatever you want me to call them ?terrorists? and they could live a much more peaceful life.

[breakaleg]

19. Well, when they are killing massive numbers of civilians then it is

our place to 'judge'. After all, isn't that what the UN is about?

What if we said nothing, and did nothing. Isn't that what happened during the Holocaust? Not that I'm comparing this to that, I'm simply saying look at the terrible repercussions when people sit by and do nothing.

[silver10]

21. Why can't hizballah stop firing rockets and hiding in villages?

[breakaleg]

23. No idea. I'm not going to defend them. But Israel is the big bully,

with all their US money and weapons. I expect better from them. I expect Israel not to fire on and kill civilians, since they have precision in their weapons, and satellite images, and drones and all sorts of ways to gather accurate intelligence.

[silver10]

25. if the terrorists are right there with the innocents

Israel should be the bigger one, continue to be pummeled, and do nothing since their Intelligence and satellite imagery are showing the cowards to be right their with the innocents?

Why not blame hizballah for these deaths - since if hizballah wasn't using them as human shields, they would still be alive?

[silver10]

22. Would you like someone

hating you so much because of your religion and wanting you exterminated in any way - maybe that's why the Israelis are fighting and protecting themselves so hard? Flashbacks of the Holocaust?

[evox]

24. Why do you make this about religion?

Hezbollah claims to be non anti-semitic, they are anti-zionists. Can you tell the difference?

[silver10]

27. And bush says he's a Christian

Do you believe him?

[evox]

30. well he is.. n/t

[Breeze54]

50. b* is the anti-christ!

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0MKY/is_9_27/ai_108881880
2003 Catholic New Times, Inc

Pope fears Bush is antichrist

WASHINGTON DC --
According to freelance journalist Wayne Madsden,
"George W Bush's blood lust, his repeated commitment to Christian beliefs and his
constant references to 'evil doers,' in the eyes of many devout Catholic leaders,
bear all the hallmarks of the one warned about in the Book of Revelations--the anti-Christ."

Madsen, a Washington-based writer and columnist, who often writes for Counterpunch,
says that people close to the pope claim that amid these concerns,
the pontiff wishes he was younger and in better health to confront the possibility that
Bush may represent the person prophesized in Revelations.

Madsen contends that
"Bush is a dangerous right-wing ideologue who couples his political fanaticism with a neo-Christian blood cult."

[Marie26]

33. That's just silly. nt

[evox]

34. why so? n/t

Don't you know the difference either?

[cali]

44. What, what what?

H'zbollah's public statements about Israel ALL support the destruction of Israel, and many of those statements are pretty damn violent. Claiming H'zbollah is not antisemitic in nature, is just laughable.

[evox]

47. Sigh...

Hezbollah believes that Israel has no right to exist because they believe it is a "zionist entity" and not a Jewish entity. They do NOT however state that Jews have no right to exist - because then that would be anti-semitic.
Not all Jews are Israelis and not all Israelis are Jews. Get it?
Furthermore, not all Jews support Israel, does that make them anti-semitic?

[cali]

53. double sigh

advocating for the violent dissolution of Israel is de facto anti-semitism. The language H'zbollah uses is anti-semitic. the thin veneer that it's zionism that H'zbollah objects to is disingenuous at best. They object to a Jewish state. Period.

[CJCRANE]

36. It's understandable

but Israel loses the sympathy of the rest of the world when it acts like a bully.

[cali]

32. Alas, it's happening right now on DU

Just try starting a thread about the Sudan, and the really massive civilian deaths there- not in the hundreds but in the hundreds of thousands. Yes, that's right, hundreds of thousands of people have been killed in Darfur. As someone who's tried to start threads on this tragedy, I'm perplexed by how little outrage it draws here.

[breakaleg]

46. I think it's unconscionable that "we", the world is not up in arms about

Darfur. Why doesn't that get the press that Israel / Lebanon gets?

[breakaleg]

13. Your post seems to have very little to say on the current conflict.

Israel has killed 1000 innocent civilians in this conflict, and for what? That's called aggression, not defense.

If you look at all of the information we have now learned, there seems to be a consensus that this had very little to do with those two soldiers, so the defense line no longer holds true.

[Minstrel Boy]

15. After reading comments here regarding US policy in Iraq and elsewhere,

would you also say, "Everybody on this site seems to be against the United States"?

If not, then why say objection to Israeli policy is equivalent to being "against Israel"?

[breakaleg]

17. People are against US Policy and Israeli Policy, not the countries

themselves.

[cali]

35. Oh c'mon,

there have been hundreds of posts suggesting that Israel shouldn't exist.

[IntiRaymi]

41. Look at it from a practical perspective.

Maybe the questions that ought to be asked are not "should or shouldn't", but should be "can or can't".
On the one hand you have Israel, heavily fortified, possible tool of american imperialism in the region, and a never ending source of headaches for global stability.
(During the Yom Kippur War, Leonid Brezhnev threatened nuclear escalation over the conflict:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur_War)
And on the other hand, you have China, Russia, Canada, Brazil: Nations that have a definite center of gravity, and possess unquestioned sovereignty over everything contained therein. They are products of a natural self consistent geopolitical logic, evolved over a realistic time frame.
If you compare the two, you can begin to see, from a different perspective, the problems that Israel faces. Put another way, if Hezbollah were firing from Jordan, instead of Lebanon, Israel would be the single most miserable place on earth to live in. In fact, it would be much like Palestine is now - another non-viable state.
I know jewish people need a homeland, their long suffering history in Europe is a lesson for them that they cannot forget; but awarding them this essentially indefensible spit of land is almost like a cruel joke for all involved.

[breakaleg]

52. I haven't seen any....

The only mention I've seen at DU that Israel shouldn't exist, is made by people who are defending Israel and mention that as the reason for their aggression. I have not see anyone here actually say they believe that Israel shouldn't exist.

[cali]

54. Do a search

you'll find there are plenty. There's been at least two long threads in I/P over the past few weeks dedicated to that proposition.

[silver10]

18. If you want to split hairs and get into semantics

I guess we are against the United States regarding the Iraq war.

[Minstrel Boy]

26. Then I guess

many of us are against Israel regarding the war in Lebanon.

But that's not what you originally implied, is it?

[silver10]

28. Isn't hiballah attacking Israel

Because they are against Israel?

[azurnoir]

29. First off who is we?

Your profile is disabled so there is no way of telling other then your comments, which would say you are Israeli(the American Indian analogy). So just what has Israel accomplished here? What could have Israel accomplished? Hezbollah at this point has never been more popular in Lebanon, so does that give Israel an excuse to keep killing Lebanese? From what I have read the Israeli on Lebanese civilians stance is that by merely saying one supports Hezbollah then you are no longer a civilian and a legitimate military target. So this would now be inclusive of around 85 to 90% of the Lebanese. I think there is a name for that. What about Israelis if they support the military action are they no longer civilian and a legitimate target for Hezbollah? Or is a different standard then?
In short Israel went beyond what was necessary for its own defense, if they had concentrated on south Lebanon rather then bombing claimed Hezbollah targets all over the country, the out cry may not be quite so loud. In the end when all this started a month and a day ago I predicted the end would be Israel will get some of the Lebanese territory it grudgingly gave back and Hezbollah would be enjoying more power in Lebanon then ever before, the two warring parties would accomplish their ends with the Lebanese people as the pawns-again.

[silver10]

31. I am not Israeli!!!!

And what difference is it what my profile is? Are you trying to judge and stereotype me?

I want to know about you - are you constantly the target of terrorist acts? Day in, day out?

[azurnoir]

37. No your last statement was

then we are against the US "occupation of Iraq", how would being Israeli stereotype you? There are Israeli posters on DU. I was curious not judgmental

[breakaleg]

48. There has to be a limit to this 'tit for tat' excuse.

Yes, the Israeli's have been the victims of terrorist attacks. But those attacks haven't happened in a vacuum. There is history. And Israel has killed more of it's opponents - both in Israel and Lebanon - than they have killed Israelis. So this 'we are under attack' stuff can't go back indefinitely.

Israel seems to use that catch phrase as an excuse to weild their military might however they want and the consequences be damned.

And to put it into perspective, many of those attacks on Israeli's take place inside an occupied territory by resistance fighters. It's not called terrorism when a soldier is killed when he is on someone else's land as the occupier.

[silver10]

55. It's called defend your life, not "tit for tat"

And my opinion is that Israel would like nothing more than to live peacefully, and not occupy anybody, but with all the terrorist attacks, it's not possible. Certain elements will not stop until they have destroyed Israel and all its people. That's why they have to defend themselves and occupy regions as a buffer zone - again, history shows that the terrorists won't be happy until they have Israel.

[IntiRaymi]

43. There is an influx of israelis in here.

A good generic nickname is best. Specifically, not one that can be googled in a manner that might be triangulated to you, specifically.

[silver10]

56. The nerve . . .

If someone has a differing opinion and can see the other side's view, their "Israeli?" I'm not part of any "influx" and I'm not Israeli or Jewish - I'm just tired of excuses for how certain people in the Middle East are behaving - terrorist acts, suicide bombs, rockets, using women and children as human shields, the stripping of women's freedoms and liberties.

I think it is horrible how many civilians have been killed on both sides, even the soldiers, but the Lebanese civilians would not be dead if the terrorists weren't hiding among them and firing rockets. Why? because they hate Israel and can't stand their existence. So they use the innocent people as human shields, not caring how many die, but they get world sympathy against the Israelis who are only trying to protect themselves. Even a big man has a right to defend himself if a smaller man is trying to kill him.

And I can't theorize the situation justify the hizballah like many seem to be doing.

[Zhade]

45. Dumb tactic.

If Hezbollah were smart (but they're a terrorist group, which precludes forward-thinking), they'd only target the invading IDF, which is allowed under international law.

This is just stupid, not to mention wrong. Both sides need to stop killing civilians!

[Minstrel Boy]

49. Wrong, but not dumb.

Showering northern Israel with missiles demonstrates what a catastrophe Olmert's war has been.

[Zhade]

51. Yeah, but targeting civilians just shows them as wrong, too.

If they stuck to defending against the invaders, they'd be in the right, and the world wouldn't hold such a negative opinion of them.

I'm not particularly interested in Hezbollah rehabilitating their image, but tactically it seems dumb to me in the long-run.