Belgium 'an accident of history with football and beer'

[T_i_B]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/08/19/wbelg19.xml

The political leader of Flanders, the Dutch-speaking half of Belgium, has caused outrage by saying that the 175-year-old Belgian nation was an "accident of history" with "no intrinsic value".

Years of devolution had eroded the kingdom to the point where it now amounted to nothing more than the "king, the national football team and certain brands of beer", said Yves Leterme, the Flemish region's premier.

Adding personal insult to political injury, he accused French speakers living in Flanders of "lacking the mental capacity to learn Dutch". He scorned the official notion that Belgium was a bilingual nation, saying: "Look at the difficulties Francophone leaders, and even the king of this country, have in speaking fluent Dutch."

Mr Leterme's hard-line stance reflects the growing sense among voters in Flanders, the richer and larger half of Belgium, that they subsidise ungrateful French compatriots in the south and the time to sever the last remaining ties may be near.

[Sherman A1]

1. Everyone seems to be getting along rather nicely...

Then again perhaps not...

[dipsydoodle]

2. Belgium is famous

for being boring. :}

[trogdor]

14. Name five famous Belgians

Goes the old joke.

[struggle4progress]

16. Jacques Brel,Rene Magritte,Gerardus Mercator,Ilya Prigogine,Adolphe Sax,

http://www.famousbelgians.net/categories.htm

[dipsydoodle]

19. The original joke

from the sixties was with regard to the world's thinest books - one of which was Famous Belgians. Another was the book of Italian War heroes. :)

[kskiska]

87. The French love to tell Belgian jokes

What does the sign at the top of Belgian ladders say?

STOP.

Stuff like that.

[Blue_Tires]

25. Jacky Ickx!!!!

Tony Gillet

and that's all i can think of off-hand

of course there was king leopold II, but he was famous the same way hitler was famous

[truebrit71]

62. And his yummy daughter Vanina....

..no slouch behind the wheel either....

[Blue_Tires]

26. forgot about Kim Clijsters

[jamesinca]

30. Are you kidding

I watch tennis just to see her. Babe!!!!!!

[jamesinca]

31. Eddy Merk

The "cannibal". Famous cyclist, won the Tour De France 5 times. I know Lance made that passe, but at the time it was incredible

[dnbn]

43. Belgium has Spa-Francorchamps

The greatest race track in the world.

[Blue_Tires]

44. welcome to the site!

and good mention! i follow F1 and i completely forgot about that

[truebrit71]

63. It used to be even better....ever seen the movie Grand Prix?

WOW!!!

That and the Nordschlieffe would separate the men from the boys....

[JohnLocke]

50. I'll do you one better.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Belgians

[KamaAina]

67. Where is the love for Jean Claude Van Damme?

:P

[sofa king]

74. Wily Coppens

The famous balloon-buster pilot during the First World War. He once collided with a hydrogen-filled German observation ballon, landing on top of it. Coppens astutely cut his engine to avoid touching it off, rolled off the side, restarted his engine, and flew away while the balloon crashed and burned.

It was reputedly the fourth observation balloon he had destroyed with a total of twenty incendiary machine gun bullets he had stolen from the French.

[Great White Shark]

88. Simenon

Don't tell me I'm the only one to remember the writer George Simenon? Maigret?

[Coes]

37. boring? BORING???

are you kidding?

Belgium has about ten and a half million inhabitants, and there's 6 ( six, yes ) governments. There's quarrels on a daily basis, so this time it's the Flemish Minister President, tomorrow it's somebody else from another government. I can't wait to see reactions of the French-speaking press. It will be fun to read.

I live in the Flanders part, Yves is right you know. It's an artificial country.

[Aridane]

59. Boring?

Nah, no way!
You want boring? You wanna try Luxembourg!

More famous Belgians:

Justine Henin-Hardenne
Tom Boonen
Rene Magritte
Rubens
Jacques Rogge
Kim Gevaert (European Champion 100m and 200m)
Tia Hellebaut (European Champion high jump)

And we have the world's best beer too!
And great fries!

[Oreo]

61. Welcome to DU!

I'm a big fan of Belgian beer

[Endangered Specie]

3. Most countries in Europe have groups of people..

who'd rather not be a part of the country they live in.

Course, you could argue nearly all the borders in Europe are accidents of history too ;)

[xchrom]

4. and beer!

[Stella_Artois]

5. Someone called ?

[Viking12]

22. Hey, I'm drinking you right now...

is that perverse or just wholesome pleasure?

[T_i_B]

28. Not that crap!

There are many many wonderful beers from Belgium, but Stella is not definitely not one of them. I'll stick to those wonderful fruit beers that the Belgians excel at if you don't mind.

[dogfacedboy]

29. To tell you the truth

I don't believe that "fruit" and "beer" and "wonderful" belong in the same sentence.

[T_i_B]

60. Oh yes they do!

That may be the case with Lambic beers (which are VERY sour and something of an aquired taste) but not strawberry and cherry beers, both of which the Belgians are very good at.

[dogfacedboy]

81. My point was that beer shouldn't be made with fruit flavors.

Beer should taste like beer.

[no_hypocrisy]

6. So now Belgium does not have the right to exist? What is this new vogue

with choosing nations that should not have sovereignty and international recognition?

Or is this guy being "Basque" and wants a new country carved out of Belgium as his goal?

[treestar]

34. Doesn't Flanders have the right to defend itself?

Why do you hate Belgium?

:toast:

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

80. ANTI-FLEMITE!!!

[Coes]

38. a break-up

This needs a bit of background. Yves Leterme is a member of the CD&V, a Christian center democratic party. They made an alliance a while back with the NV-A, which is a hardcore Flemish regionalist party, that wants to have more and more political responsabilities to be transferred from the central Belgian government, towards the regional Flemish and Walloon(-ish)-something governments. So he wears a center democratic pair of pants, but there's a hardcore regionalistic cactus in his pocket.

And besides that, in early october, there's local elections. Tough talk about such matters always score points/votes.

[mcscajun]

7. "Oh, Belgium, man, BELGIUM!"

Somebody had to say it, as Zaphod's not here at the moment.
:crazy:

[madame defarge]

8. Hey now...don't let them hit on Belgium!!!

Yeah, it may be boring to some (especially the Brits)...but...being half-Belgian (from the French/Walloon side), I take pride in being of Belgian heritage. Great little country that gave us: great food (French fries were invented in Belgium!), great artists (Magritte, Brueghel), Tintin, Smurfs, the best chocolate in the world, the best beers in the world, Eddie Merckx, Justine Henin-Hardenne, Hercule Poirot, diamonds, and best of all...my mother.

[alfredo]

10. Eddie Merckx was addicted to Godiva chocolate. We all knew

we could get on his good side by giving him a box of Godiva. He liked beer and a good cigar too.

[kineneb]

15. we visited and fell in love with Belgium

It doesn't hurt that they have a interesting history, and lots of cool medieval art, architecture, and a damned fine musical instrument museum in Brussels. Outside of California, I would choose Belgium or Germany as places to live; I am bilingual in German, and would not have difficulty learning Dutch/Flemish. We loved Antwerp. And the chocolate... yummy.

[DavidDvorkin]

9. A long-term trend within the EU

If the EU strengthens and becomes more unified, the need for self-defence that once drove regions to combine into nation states diminishes. Europe could see a wave of devolution back to regions.

Long ago, various people argued that the long-term goal should be "a Europe of the regions" rather than "a Europe of the nations". That may happen naturally.

[anotherdrew]

17. "the new regionalism"

about

[DavidDvorkin]

27. Cool

I didn't know about that term. Thanks.

[nemo137]

76. I think we need that here

I'm moving towards favoring midwestern seccession. We're almost as different from southerners or Californians as the Flemish are from the Walloons.

[Turbineguy]

11. I remember the language riots in the early 60's

people would come out of their offices for lunch, beat the shit out of eachother and go back to work after an hour. Glad that ended. As for learning Dutch... I wouldn't wish that on anybody.

[Coventina]

12. Well, he's kind of right. But wrong to be insulting to the French.

Most of the blame for the Dutch speakers being stuck in Belgium has to do with their own ancestors and the Spanish.

But that's a long, long story.......

I'm getting my master's degree on a Dutch topic, so I've learned a lot of the history of the region. Very fascinating.

[badgervan]

21. Question for you

Is the last name Van Ess more Dutch or Belgian? Any ideas on its meaning, source, etc.?

[Coventina]

32. I don't claim to be an expert on names but

"van" means "from" so van Ess means "from Ess". A very common type of name BTW. I have to admit that I could not find "Ess" on a map. It could be from either Belgium or the Netherlands. It is hard to know for sure what exactly "Ess" might refer to. The word doesn't appear in my Dutch dictionary, making me believe that it is probably a place name.

Rembrandt's full name was "Rembrandt van Rijn" meaning Rembrandt from the Rhine - referring to the river. His family lived in Leiden, but owned a mill on the banks of the Rhine, from which the family name came. So, if you could track down this "Ess" you would be farther along.

Good luck, sorry I'm not of more help.

[badgervan]

49. Thanks

thanks for the reply. I've alwalys assumed it was of Dutch/Belgium origin. Close enough.

[Texifornia]

23. Belgium was once part of The Netherlands...

The first king of The Netherlands was crowned in Ghent, Belgium.

There was an actual rebellion and seperation. I'm not up on the whole story, but I've seen paintings in Amsterdam, Bruges, Ghent and Brussels depecting the events.

[Coventina]

33. The separation came during Spanish rule in the 16th century.

The Northern Netherlands successfully rebelled (although it took many decades, it is referred to as the 80 years war), but the Southern provinces (now Belgium) remained under Spanish control.

It was a separation that was not intended to be permanent at the time. The Netherlands wanted to remain united, but during the war they grew apart. Much of that due to religion. The Northern provinces embraced Calvinism, while the South remained Catholic.

[Seeking Serenity]

13. Reminds me of a Monty Python sketch

One of their game-show send-ups called "Prejudice." At the end, Michael Palin, as the host, says that viewers were asked come up with a derogatory term for the Belgians. Honourable mention was a viewer who said, "he couldn't of anything more derogatory than 'Belgian.'" Third place was "The Sprouts." Second place was "The Phlegms." "But the winner was undoubtedly, 'Miserable fat Belgian bastards!'"

Seeing and hearing Michael Palin do that just cracks me up everytime. :rofl:

(edited 'cause I remembered the name of the sketch)

[Critters2]

20. Phlegms!!

I remember that! It was when I was in high school. My home town has LOTS of Flemish Americans, so we non-Phlegms made use of that from time to time.

Phlegms! :rofl:

[treestar]

35. I loved that one too

:thumbsup:

MP are the greatest.

[dipsydoodle]

55. Did you ever see

the Blackmail sketch ? Search and you might find it's script.

[JVS]

18. Flanders! Wohoo!

[SquireJons]

24. Fallout from the abandonment of NATO

Since the 1950's Belgium has been the official European headquarters of NATO. Nobody questioned Belgium's sovereignty then. It was their only claim to importance, and somewhat manufactured. But, for partisan political reasons, the bush mis-administration has done what ever it could to undermine NATO's credibility, and thus the decline of Belgian credibility. It's disheartening to see the Europeans go at each other, even within their own boarders. Compared with such historically significant states as Monaco, and Luxembourg, Belgium is a heavyweight, imo. At least they haven't started umpty-ump wars over the last hundred years, like so many of their neighbors.

[Coes]

40. I disagree

I'm not even sure that the Flemish north and the Wallonian south have a different opinion about the presence of the NATO headquarters.

The differences are historical, linguistic, political, cultural, ...

The current king will hold things together, but I'm doubtfull about the political skills of his son/successor.

[SquireJons]

56. I think it's a factor

True, the differences between the people of Belgium are historical in nature and predate NATO by a couple of hundred years, but NATO did provide hard currency and a sense of national pride for the country. My point is that the decline of NATO coincides with the decline in Belgium civic pride. And it seems likely to me that one feeds the other.

[knight_of_the_star]

68. They didn't start any wars

They just ended up being squashed by two of the bigger ones due to their position.

[Ouabache]

71. Yeah but what about the Congo?

I thought Belgium was resposible for that little piece of artistic colonialism.
Can you say 'Heart of Darkness'? Maybe the devil made them do it, though.

[knight_of_the_star]

83. My bad

I was more thinking continental wars. Genocide in your own territories in my mind doesn't count, it's just a massacre no other way to put it.

[tabasco]

36. I thought it was a wonderful and beautiful country!

Been there a few times and the folks there were friendlier than anywhere in the world.

Beautiful hills and scenery. Picture postcard towns.

I love the place even if that jackass doesn't. If he wants to trade houses - I'M THERE!

I'm an amateur historian and I would love to be able to walk the battlefields.

[Kajsa]

39. "No intrinsic value?"

What ?!?

Who is the hell does this guy think he is?
What a pompous jerk!

:mad:

I traveled through Belgium in the early 70's.
I loved it! The people are very friendly and the food
is fantastic. I especially liked the art museums.

My mother tells me we have Walloon bloodlines
on her side of the family.

[Coes]

41. okay

should Belgium break up in two parts, those people will still be the same friendly folks, the cooks will keep on preparing the same dishes, and not a single museum would have to close.

'Intrinsic value', or the lack thereoff, IS just what I wrote in this very reply: the things you brought up here, won't change at all, in case the "Made in Belgium" label should be replaced by "Made in Flanders", and "Made in Wallonia". And that's what Yves is referring to.

[Kajsa]

42. OK, I'm really asking- Why is a breakup necessary?

Is there that much tension and discord going down
between Flanders and Wallonia?

I loved all of Belgium.

[Coes]

45. it's hard to already use the word 'necessary'

we're not there yet. Not yet.

As the article mentioned: "there's growing sense among voters in Flanders...". That includes me.

We're not on the brink of a civil war here - not even close -, both sides have more interest in keeping a stable environment, than turning the area into a turmoil. The rich Flemish north wants that break-up a lot more than the poorer Wallonian south, but a couple of months ago, I was countered by a question that I still haven't been able to straighten out yet:"Do you think that Flanders is going to be well off with a very large border to one of the poorest countries in Western-Europe?" Of course the answer is no.

But keeping the current flow of subsidises (? dunno the correct word ) towards the ungreatfull south isn't necessarily the lesser of the two evils to a lot of people here in the north.

[Blue_Tires]

47. welcome to the site!

thanks for the insights

[Kajsa]

48. I forgot to welcome you to DU.

Welcome, Coes,
and I'm sorry for the
oversight.

:blush:

I didn't realize that Wallonia was poor.
I learned something, today.

[Blue_Tires]

46. one last kick for Germinal Beerschot

[DemExpat]

51. I especially love Belgium!

Antwerp and the lovely French Ardennes are my favorite places to go to get away from my daily life in the crowded West of Holland.

I do see what the author of this article is saying, but dislike the insults to the Wallonians.

DemEx

[Danmel]

52. My daughter's boyfriend is from Antwerp

She met him in Jerusalem. We live in NY. She IM's him all the time- The best thing about a teenage daughter with a Belgian boyfriend is that I know he's not over after school while I'm at work. She is quite anxious to go visit him there, though

[DemExpat]

53. My daughter lived there this year for 5 months for her studies

and had a wonderful time. Antwerp has something very special to it which I love to immerse myself into on a regular basis - and the people are very nice and less "abrasive" as the more confrontational Dutch imo, (Whom I am also very fond of!).

:hi:

DemEx

[rocktivity]

54. Audrey Hepburn isn't a famous Belgian? HELLO????

:headbang:
rocknation

[Matilda]

57. For Audrey alone, Belgium qualifies as a great country!

And add Belgian chocolate.

[demo dutch]

84. Just born in Brussels, but grew up in UK and Holland, her mother was a

Dutch baroness and her father a wealthy English banker. There really isn't anything Belgian about her!

[muriel_volestrangler]

79. Only by place of birth

Her mother was Dutch (ie not Flemish), her father British, and she grew up in those two countries, not Belgium.

[pitohui]

58. what a coincidence

the usa is an accident of history w. football and beer, aren't most nations, really?

[KamaAina]

70. Different kind of football, besides, our beer sucks.

Except for Abita, of course. :-) And when Belgians, and pretty much everyone else, say "football", they mean the sport played at the World Cup, not (as of late Sept.) at the Superdome, :bounce: but you probably already knew that.

[Minstrel Boy]

64. The best things in history have happened by accident.

It seems to be mostly when people really put their minds to something, and get it, that bad stuff happens.

[Jed Dilligan]

65. My favorite Belgian: Herge.

Not a political role model, but the greatest comic book artist of all time, hands down, no contest.

[truebrit71]

66. Absolutely no doubt.....although Goscinny and Uderzo were pretty good...

...too...

[AZCat]

77. Greatest? Them's fightin' words...

we Eisner fans don't take lightly such talk.

Any more of that and I'll sic the Spirit on ya'.

[Jed Dilligan]

Well, what can I say?

I'm more realist than expressionist in my tastes.

[Jed Dilligan]

85. self delete

damned Belgian mouse!

[Darth_Kitten]

69. hey, what about their chocolate?

never knew Belgium to be famous for it's beer.

[Ouabache]

72. Have you heard of the famous 'Blue Moon' Belgian beer? No?

That's ok, because neither have the Belgians !!

[sofa king]

75. Yep nothing Belgian about that stuff. It's a Coors product.

And the only similarity is that another guy named Adolf once ripped off the Belgians, too.

Belgium has 500 different types of beer coming out of at least a hundred breweries, and a custom glass to go with each one. It's sad that I, a non-drinking American, know that better than some Walloon-hating Belgian redneck.

[Rex]

73. 'king, the national football team and certain brands of beer'

I have to ask, WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH THAT? Dam, I want to move there! This guy needs to lay off the crack rock. :eyes:

[Apollo11]

78. Belgium

The one thing that keeps Belgium together is the city of Brussels.

Belgium has 3 regions:
1. Flanders is the northern half of the country with around 6 million inhabitants who speak Dutch.
2. Wallonia is the southern half of the country with around 4 million inhabitants who speak French (except for a few thousand in the east of the country who speak German).
3. Brussels is a city with 1 million inhabitants. It is recognised as a separate region, but it is completely surrounded by Flanders.

Brussels has around 1 million inhabitants and less than 10% of them are Dutch-speaking. The reason is that most Dutch-speakers have moved out of Brussels into the surrounding towns and villages (in Flanders).

I guess about 70% of Brussels inhabitants are French speakers. The rest are non-Belgians from all across the European Union and other countries (Morocco, Turkey, etc.). But in most shops and cafes you will hear French being spoken. Then English. Dutch you will rarely hear (even though officially it has equal status with French as the 2 official languages of the Brussels Region).

Many Flemish politicians are attracted to the idea of a separate state. But they would not do it without Brussels. And the population of Brussels would not accept being part of a Flemish State in which French speakers would be a marginalised minority.

That's why the current Federal System - in place since 1981 - is probably the "least bad" solution for keeping everyone more-or-less happy (or at least - preventing violence in the streets).

You will still get trouble at some football (soccer) games between teams from the north and south (like last weekend there was a game Liege against Genk).

But the Leader of the Flemish Region does have a point. I know French speakers who live in Flanders but never take the trouble to learn Dutch and integrate with their neighbours. And when you hear a Francophone trying to speak Dutch/Flemish - they often make a real hash of it.

[President Kerry]

82. Very informative tidbit - thanks!

This problem isn't unique to Belgium - Canada, Spain, and Cyprus come to mind as other multi-lingual and multi-ethnic countries struggling with the same issues. I personally see little benefit in separation as all of EU cross-subsidizes itself anyway, and I'd think the rich countries are none too happy about it, but they obviously see the benefit of economic and political harmonization to stay in it.

No one is asking people to change their ways of life. Integration is being done on the institutional level (defence, financial systems, etc). So if all of Europe can stay together in a pretty tight Union, for sure so can Belgium.

[Zomby Woof]

86. If it's Tuesday...

It must be a thread about Belgium.

Their Trappist monks make some great beer... :beer:

[kskiska]

89. They've made some good movies

Palme d'Or and César winning directors Luc and Jean-Pierre Dardenne made "Rosetta," "La Promesse," "The Son,""L'Enfant," and Le Fils.

Some other good ones:
Since Otar Left (2003)
Everybody's Famous! (2000)
Get out Your Handkerchiefs (1978)
Il Postino (1994)
Letter to Brezhnev (1985)
Ma Vie en Rose (1997)
Pauline and Paulette (2001)
The Triplets of Belleville (2003)