Chirac discusses UN force for Lebanon with EU leaders

[tocqueville]

12 minutes ago

PARIS (AFP) - French President Jacques Chirac held talks with several EU leaders stressing the need to swiftly agree the make-up and mandate of a peacekeeping force in Lebanon.

The French leader spoke by phone to Italy's Prime Minister Romano Prodi, Turkish Prime Minister Recep Erdogan and Finish Prime Minister Matti Vanhanen, whose country holds the EU presidency, it said Saturday.

All three countries have agreed in principle to send soldiers but want more details on the precise mandate of the force charged with policing a ceasefire between Israel and Hezbollah.

Chirac highlighted "the need to very quickly specify the missions, the rules of engagement and the chain of command" of the UN interim force in Lebanon (UNIFIL), it said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060819/wl_mideast_afp/mideastconflictunforceeurope

[Solo_in_MD]

1. Givien that Italy is willing to send many more soliders than France

and the miserable performance of the French lead UNIFIL todate, I would support booting the French out of the leadership of UNIFIL

[tocqueville]

2. France doesn't give a fuck about your advice

#1 the former UNIFIL mandate was a joke. But of course it was dictated by the US. Israel has never wanted any UN presence in the region and the former UNIFIL troops didn't have even the right (not to talk about the means) to be other than sitting ducks. Then the Israeli have the arrogance of blaming them for "doing nothing" when they don't target them ON PURPOSE.

#2 France has been the sole western military power to be in the region to assist evacuations and convey humanitarian aid under fire and through the blockade. The US/Brits were there briefly only to evacuate.

#3 France is dispatching a reinforcement of 200 troops to UNIFIL under UN mandate, mostly specialist of demining and bridge repair, which is far more important to the local populations than chasing the Hizbollah, which by the way isn't on any mandate, but of course would be greatly appreciated by a certain pro-Israeli opinion which has the arrogance to ask others to do what they were unable to do themselves.

#4 France is dispatching next week 234 troops of its own troops under French command and Lebanese request to assist the other 200.

#5 France has around 1 700 troops aboard the BPC Mistral now anchored at Naqura. Those are heavily armed with tanks, artillery and attack-helicopters. They remain under French command, but are "at the disposition" of the UNIFIL, if the UNIFIL is under attack. They will assist partly anyway in bridge reconstruction and demining. That makes the total French presence in Lebanon to about 2 200 men, not counting Navy personal and the logistic base on Cyprus.

#6 France has 6 warships in the costal area of which 2 of them are equipped each with 16 cruise missiles. They are probably not equipped with nuclear warheads, but you never know.

#7 Chirac is working with other EU leaders to create an European force of credibility that has a clear mandate of engagement, since the resolution is under Chapter 6 and not Chapter 7. That means : no more sitting ducks or nothing.

#8 France and other countries are not involved in the region to "protect" Israel, but only there to ensure that the little mess that the US/Israel created on purpose to train an Syrian/Iranian invasion doesn't turns into a heavy mess. But we are diplomatic enough no to say it loud, except from some well informed military sources.

[Solo_in_MD]

3. Your Franco nationalism is amusing

France has been on hard times lately in terms of its "peacekeeping" activities in Africa and overall military fitness. Its defense industries are on the skids as is Airbus. They are not in this for humanitarian reasons, they are in it to regain some of the lost stature and rejuvenate their domestic defense industries. They are not in it for altruism.

Unfortunately, its a losers game for them right now. The UN will not give them a real mandate, even if they could fulfill it. Any real show of strength and Hezbollah will turn on them in an instant. Chirac will wave his arms and strut on the international stage and *nothing* substantive will come of it.

France had been in serious decline for years, but was using the EU standard as a way to reclaim long lost glories and perceived preeminnce in Europe. However the multiple defeats of the EU constitution coupled with the new entrants refusal to acknowledge French leadership, Chirac has left a real mess for whomever replaces him. England and Germany, with support from Ireland and Poland are going to be the European leaders for some time to come.

If they had the good sense to revisit some of their economic policies, France could once again be a vital, dynamic, and growing nation. I doubt I shall see it in my lifetime.


No military person, even in France, concurs with your #8. To postulate that the recent Lebanon action was a training operation for Syria or Iran is specious.

[tocqueville]

5. your naivety is amusing

France and Europe are doing well, better than the US. I could present tons of facts, but that wouldn't probably convince you. I saw a yahoo report today that shows that the job creation rate in Europe has gone by the US one. Besides it's beyond the topic we are discussing. You don't argue about the facts I present about the French military presence in the region, you talk about something else, which BTW isn't even true. It's a known trick.

Your assertion about France peacekeeping is completely false. I don't know what kind of sources you have, but they must be pretty biased.

Peacekeeping in Bosnia-Kosovo is a success. The other day the French and the Bosnian had an international soccer game in Sarajevo stadion under the pressence of thousands of mostly Bosnians. A few cops were seen. Try to have the same in Baghdad, you'll see. Don't try it in Tel-Aviv.

In Ivory Coast the mission is a success, Gabgo is isolated and the militias are disarming. The little coup one year ago probably created by the evangelical wife of the President was resolved UNDER UN MANDATE within 48 hours.

Congo has just held elections

a coup attempt was stopped in Chad by the French troups recently. It was coming from Sudanese Islamic fundies trying to expand the Darfur crisis in Chad.

name one place where French involvement abroad is a failure. You can't. That's only the kind of stuff you read on yahoo message boards written by French bashers.

about #8 :

M. Chirac a annoncé le doublement, de 200 à 400, du nombre de casques bleus français à la frontière libano-israélienne et le maintien des 1.700 hommes de l'opération aéro-navale Baliste en soutien de la Finul.

Chirac maintains that the 1700 troops will assist UNIFIL

"Etats-Unis et Grande-Bretagne ont signifié qu'ils n'enverraient personne", cingle un responsable militaire qui a requis l'anonymat, "mais ils font porter la pression sur la France, le pays le plus engagé et depuis le début, pour lui faire faire le boulot à leur place !".

an anonymous military source spits out : the US/UK won't send anybody but put the pressure on France, the most engaged country since the beginning, to make us do the job instead

"La fleur au fusil, la France serait supposée rétablir un ordre qui n'existe pas au Liban sud depuis trente ans !", s'exclame-t-il.

flowers in their guns the French are supposed to restore an order that hasn't existed in Lebanon the last 30 years

Pour les experts interrogés par l'AFP, la France pose les questions que tous les contributeurs potentiels se posent.

Un Français, ex-casque bleu en Bosnie, se souvient avec amertume d'"humiliations" subies à Sarajevo, faute d'un mandat précis avec moyens de riposte adaptés.

"Que fera-t-on si on tombe sur des combattants armés ? Aura-t-on le droit de fouiller des maisons, la circulation de la Finul sera-t-elle totalement libre ?. Autant d'inconnues à dissiper avant l'envoi de forces supplémentaires, car après, c'est trop tard", dit-il.

For the experts asked by the AFP everybody is asking the same questions : what if we meet armed combattants, have we the right to search houses, can UNIFIL move completely freely ? Because it's best to ask those questions before because after it's too late

http://fr.news.yahoo.com/19082006/202/liban-la-france-toujours-mobilisee-mais-avec-des-regles-claires.html


And you might not believe me, but the UN mission is NOT to protect Israel, but to monitor a political peace process between Israel and Lebanon. Check teh Text of the resolution. It's only Bush with his fertile imagination that thinks otherwise.

And I bet that the French authorities take Seymour Hersh far more seriously than you do.

[lumpy]

7. Appreciate your input, tocqueville

Stay with it.

[Solo_in_MD]

11. Do you have something other than nationalism to contribute on this

I have never compared France to the US in this. I am just pointing out that the French seem all too willing to strut in the press, but are not resourcing the new force as they lead everyone to believe that they would. Additionally their leadership to date of UNIFIL has been poor at best.

Chirac and crew are not in this for altruistic reasons. They need some decent press and successful mission may lead to some external military sales, which they also desperately need. Their warriness reflects the very real possibility that the roof will cave in on them in southern Lebanon.


Here is a UK take on it (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,176-2320575,00.html):

France leads ... sort of

In a world of uncertainty, it is comforting to have something on which one can rely. So don’t sneer, don’t carp and don’t laugh; instead raise a glass to toast . . . the French.
When Israel launched its attack on Hezbollah in Lebanon, President Chirac was among the first leaders to call for a ceasefire, cocking a snook at the Anglo-Saxon pair, President Bush and Tony Blair, the prime minister. M Chirac went on to be instrumental in the passing of the United Nations resolution which demanded just that, and which promised to send in UN troops to ensure that southern Lebanon was free from Hezbollah.

There is, of course, no such thing as “UN troops”. There are, rather, national troops loaned to the UN when it assembles a mission. Now that there is indeed a ceasefire of sorts and the UN is required to assemble troops, one might have assumed that it would have a substantial number from the nation that had been most vocal calling for such a UN force: France.

As if! When France started, as the saying has it, to “talk the talk”, M Chirac suggested that some 5,000 troops were needed, a Middle East expedition to rival Napoleon’s adventure in Egypt. The French, however, appear to be reluctant to “walk the walk”, offering the grand total of 200 soldiers. The Italians have come forward with 3,000.

Not that one should be surprised. There are few more regular — or entertaining — sights than French statesmen indulging in grandiose statements of political and philosophical intent, and then proceeding to do absolutely nothing. Whether it is French domestic reform, the future of the European Union, Nato or foreign policy, the French are past masters at saying one thing and doing quite another. And they are all the more reliable for that.

Diplomacy relies on the ability to predict the behaviour of another nation. So the predictable unpredictability of the French is a godsend. Heaven help us if the French were to be consistent with their words: nobody would have a clue what was happening.

I would prefer to see the Italians or some other country take the lead since I believe the French track record of failure and their conflicting agendas make them unsuitable. Italy would be a good candidate due to the size of thier troop commitment and their relative lack of agendas.

[Flagg]

12. Do you have something other than your anti-French bigotry to contribute

to this thread ?

The 200 soldiers are already in Lebanon.
Where are your Italian heroes ?

[Vidar]

13. I greatly appreciate your well-informed posts. France & a handful

of other countries give me some cause for hope, a quality sorely lacking here aux Etas-Unis.

[MrPrax]

4. Yeah...France's humanitarian

efforts in Haiti was a marvel :eyes:

:eyes:

Wait a minute...Chirac is a rightwing dickhead and no more worthy of leftwing respect in America than he gets with the Leftwing in France. So why spin it.

Com'on...I love your posts...but nationalism is a bit much...France sat on it's hands like the rest of them for a month while the slaughter took place. France has regional interests in the ME as well...for all we know, the French might just as well with their flotilla end up disarming Hezbullah and being support for a possible invasion of Syria with some trumped up provocation.

Wouldn't put it past them and all the stuff you proudly boast is really quite mild -- hardly something to send a flag up the pole over.

[tocqueville]

6. WTF has Haiti to do with that ?

but OK

Let me reiterate the statement the foreign minister made on Friday evening:

“France now has nearly 800 men in Haiti. It is therefore contributing fully, alongside other countries, to the interim multilateral force that is fulfilling the terms of SCR 1529. Placing its action on behalf of Haitian reconstruction in a long-term context, it will also take part, during a second phase, in the slated stabilization force, a civil force to maintain order. It wishes to extend its thanks to all the countries that will be lending their support, and notably to the countries of the region: Brazil, the Dominican Republic, Chile, Mexico, El Salvador, as well as the CARICOM countries.


In the immediate term, France is acting in concert, notably, with the United States of America, and shares its imperatives of optimal logistical coordination on the ground. It wishes to reiterate the spirit and context in which its action in Haiti is taking place—yesterday, today and tomorrow.


1. France’s only interest is the defense of Haitian democracy. It is obeying obligations proceeding from its own history as well as the standards that govern international democracy. As soon as the competent UN bodies cast their vote, it dispatched its contingent to the region.


2. France is acting in the service of the law and the general interest. Faced with an impasse, it called on all the parties to assume their responsibilities. It lent assistance to a people in danger in order to avoid the worst. It is not and will not be there to wage war on any party, but to better assure the country’s security, public calm and civil peace.


3. There as elsewhere, true to its principles, France is defending the sovereignty of the Haitian people when it comes to both decisions and appointments involving Haiti’s future. It will strive to defend the legitimacy of the political process in all circumstances. France therefore welcomes the formation of the Tripartite Council and reiterates its support for the implementation of the plan presented by CARICOM aimed at forming a transitional national unity government as swiftly as possible. The destiny of the Haitian people belongs to the Haitians and to them alone.


4. In this painful ordeal, defending human rights is a priority. With its contribution, France intends to promote respect for that primary human right, the right to personal security for all. This right, which requires the disarmament of uncontrolled elements, can be guaranteed only by economic and social development, to which our country intends to pay very special attention. In the immediate term, it requires the restoration of essential services and the distribution of emergency humanitarian aid.


5. France calls on all democratic forces in Haiti to mobilize. It goes without saying that France will not lend a hand, directly or indirectly, to any attempt at restoring an anti-democratic regime or returning to an unhappy past. It will, however, continue to assist all forces, to the extent they so wish, regardless of their political label, affinities or origin, that are working to establish a State governed by the rule of law, respectful of individual and public liberties and of the free expression of the popular vote within the framework set by the Constitution. It will be up to this lawful state to take all decisions to administer justice.


6. Given the gravity of the situation, the energizing of the Haitian people is crucial. France, like other representatives of the international community, can only open the path to a political and economic democracy. It is up to the Haitian people as a whole, in all its parts, to mobilize and assume its responsibilities. Let it rest assured that in this long-term effort, France will remain at its side.”

http://www.ambafrance-us.org/news/briefing/us080304.asp

France hasn't killed anybody on Haiti. Haiti had elections recently. WTF are you talking about ? Oh the trostkyite conspiracy theory about Haiti maybe....

but back to the main topic from those little diversions

Chirac is a right wing dickhead alright. If he was the leader of the US democratic party, he would be seen by 90%
of DUs members as the new messiah. A French right wing dickhead is far to the left of Howard Dean, by essence.

I am acccused of "nationalism" because I present facts that counter an original biased statement. France doesn't want to be involved in a new "UN trap", that's all. And France has done the most it could do to stop the mess Israel and the US created in Lebanon. Maybe we didn't do enough ? maybe we should have invaded Israel ? who knows ?

France is not "perfect" by no means. But I am proud that my country was on the right side this time, as in the Iraqi question... And did what it could, with its limited resources.

Frankly your "argumentation" reminds me of the blame France got for not participating in the Iraqi adventure because of "vested oil intrests"... pathetic

[MrPrax]

9. Yeah anyway...

aiding and abetting imperialist coups is usually not something I will defend with government press releases, but it's a free planet...go ahead.

But then again France is full of really good leftwingers like Regis Debray. :eyes:

Yes we know, the usual false Left premise -- ONLY Amerika drifts towards the right and being on record opposing it, makes your one's own country smell better somehow. Corporate imperialism knows no borders and fanatical devotion to simple patriotism served up by the Right is part of the problem and never part of the solution.

Sorry disagree...it's a matter OF degrees.

[lumpy]

8. Oh My God

The ignorance displayed in this board is amazing. Too many are perfectly willing to go along with the jingoism, and propa-gandering nationalism of the Rightwing Dickheaded Bush gang. This sort of bullcon sounds like the bullcon leftovers from WW2.

[MrPrax]

10. What are you talking about....

France was intimately involved in the overthrow of Aristide.

Your right about the ignorance, tho