Owners, dealers singing the SUV blues (values dive, market dries)

[Bozita]

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060823/AUTO01/608230370

Owners, dealers singing the SUV blues
Resale values take a dive as market dries up

Christine Tierney / The Detroit News

Pricing a used sport utility vehicle is a risky business these days. Tom Kozup, a Gibraltar businessman who buys and resells used vehicles, watched a rival bidder pay $13,200 on Aug. 11 for a top-of-the-line 2003 Ford Expedition at an auction in Redford.

While that was $3,000 less than the official resale value, it was not a bargain. When the new owner took the Expedition to a local dealer auction six days later, its value had fallen further. "The highest bid came in at $12,200," Kozup said. "He couldn't sell it."

High gas prices and changing tastes have turned consumers off SUVs, the once-hot emblems of rugged American individualism.

During the 1990s, SUV sales quadrupled, generating huge profits for Detroit's automakers. But consumers are now deserting in droves. Sales of new midsize and large SUVs have tumbled 19 percent this year, wreaking havoc at all levels of the business -- from the struggling automakers forced to cut output to dealers trying to price trade-ins to consumers saddled with loans exceeding the value of their vehicles.

more...

[SpiralHawk]

1. "D'oh" - Ford, GM, etc.

eom

[leftyladyfrommo]

2. Ford 150 were off 46% in July

We have a big Ford plant here in Claycomo that is laying off people for a few weeks.

[Sherman A1]

46. And that is the part that really sucks

workers losing their jobs, because the executives have this little problem of not being able to plan beyond the next earnings statement and bonus.

[NJCher]

3. oxymoron

How can a vehicle that sold in the millions upon millions be a symbol of individualism?

...once-hot emblems of rugged American individualism.

How about once-hot emblems of sheeplike, consumer conformity.




Cher

p.s. the other day I saw a Ford Expedition going down the road with a big sign on the back window. It said "1997. $5400. "

[trogdor]

7. One word - suburbia

That's how the Levittowns were sold back in the 1950s. Country living, every lot its own little kingdom. Once there, you were usually subject to all kinds of pressure to conform, conform, conform. You want to paint your house what color? You want to raise what in your back yard? And what, exactly, is that you're planting in your front yard for all of us neighbors to see. Let's see what the neighborhood association has to say about that. Right.

[teknomanzer]

29. I see a little Nelson in my head pointing and saying...

"HA HA!"

[Wednesdays]

4. A bit of poetic justice here...

I'm sure a lot of owners of the "big, bad machines" were rabid * fans, and now the chickens are coming home to roost. I couldn't believe the sticker price of a Hummer that was on display in the local mall a couple of years ago--$56,000! Probably worth scrap metal now.

[callous taoboy]

5. Cry me a river.

[ixion]

6. emblems of rugged American individualism...

:rofl:


Emblems of a sucker, IMO. :dunce:

[TheCowsCameHome]

8. Wah! "How am I gonna get my three bags of groceries home?" Wah!

Or get Susie to her ballet lessons? And besides, it's an extension of Daddy's manhood.


No sympathy here. Sorry.

[INdemo]

9. I would still buy a Ford Escort but

I'm waiting until the new Escort Hybrid is discouted a couple thousand more

[mikeytherat]

13. Get a mid-90s (95-97) Escort

This is probably the best run for the Escort. You can find an excellent, low-mileage (well under 100K) example for about $2,000, and you can get 35 mpg city and 45 mpg highway!

mikey_the_rat

[apnu]

14. I had a 1999 Escort and I loved it.

That thing always started when I asked it to no matter what the weather (and I was in some very scary cold weather off Lake Erie with it) Good car. I finally gave it up for a 2005 Ford Escape Hybrid and I love that just as much as the Escort. And Little Apnu loves the hybrid too!

Just remember to do the basic maintenence for your Escort (or Escape Hybrid) and it will last a long time.

[mikeytherat]

15. I've got almost 200,000 trouble-free miles out of my Escort

and it still spins like a top! I had a late-80s Mazda GLC (which is the same car - right down to the instrument pod!), so I knew I'd like my Escort.

I wish my BMWs were as trouble-free as the Escort, but they are much more fun to drive. Although, with the current price of gas, the Escort (the "beater-mobile" of the bunch) has worked it's way into the regular rotation.

mikey_the_rat

[apnu]

26. I got to 175K on mine. I drive from Chicago to NY twice a year.

Good, cheap, reliable transportation.

I had a 1980 320i BMW 5 speed before the escort (which was also a 5 speed). That was a lot of fun to drive, but hell to maintain. In the end, I much preferred the Escort for its reliability over the BMW's flash.

[mikeytherat]

28. I've got older BMWs, too.

A mid-80s 325i and an '88 735i five-speed (the last of the U.S.-available 7-series with a manual transmission). Both are fun to drive, the 7 especially. They're a bit finicky, but very safe (the 7 was "totaled" two years ago - hit broadside at 50 mph. My wife walked away without a scratch, and I bought the 7 back from the insurer and rebuilt it - too unique to just part it out, and it was easy to source parts for it; no frame or unibody damage, just panels, glass, and the whole front passenger's door. The Saturn that hit it, though, was a REAL mess - driver was OK).

mikey_the_rat

[Protagoras]

87. I had a 84 escort and it was a tank

great gas mileage, ran up mountain slopes like a goat (skiing) and I could fix it with spit and bailing wire (ok duct tape).

It was the american equivalent of an old VW and I loved it.

I look back on it now and wonder why I ever parted with it (the lemon yellow might have played a part).

[Hand]

39. Best car I've ever owned...

1994 Escort GLC, bought used in 2000, over 135K on the clock, and runs like new... :loveya:



"Short on frills, long on guts." :toast:

[Critters2]

40. I had an escort wagon that ran to 250,000

I loved it. Never any trouble until the day it died. Just wouldn't start one morning--something with the engine block. First time I ever had a problem.

I now have a Focus with 70,000. So far, so good.

[mainegreen]

53. Ugly, but indestructable. Almost as good as the Omnis were.

[susanna]

67. Are you sure you don't mean Escape?

That's the Ford hybrid...

[Hand]

77. I think so.

The Escort hasn't been made for several years--too good a car. :hi:

[catmandu57]

10. Die vampire die

The sooner were rid of these gas sucking momsters the better.

[stepnw1f]

11. Good

Idiots take up the roads and you can't see what's in front of them, like another car abrupty stopping. F*n thing might be safe to drive, but are dangerous to everyone else who has a vehicle that is not an SUV.

[acmavm]

12. Wonder if the morons who bought these behemoth vehicles

are pissed because Little Lord Pissypants screwed the situation up so bad that they can't gas up their rides? Or are they smart enough to connect the dots?

[TheCowsCameHome]

17. Probably too busy trying to figure out how to avoid hitting things

with their land barges.

[gratuitous]

16. Let's see . . . nope, not there

Not there, either. Wait, is that it? No, no, just a smudge on one of the lenses.

Oh, hi Democratic Underground. I didn't hear you come in. What am I doing? A little scientific experiment. See, I've cybernetically joined the magnifying power of the Hubble Space Telescope with the detection capabilities of an electron microscope, and I am examining my conscience to see if I find any trace whatsoever of sympathy for the big rig dealers or buyers mentioned in this story. No luck so far, but I'll keep looking.

[hatrack]

21. Have you considered using an X-Ray antenna?

Or, considering that dark matter apparently exists, maybe the same methods could detect it!

:evilgrin:

[gratuitous]

33. Well, there's this big black hole of schadenfreude

The reserved glee keeps obscuring any sympathy.

[Critters2]

41. Hehehe nt

[karlrschneider]

37. You might need a flux capacitor

and 21 gigawatts

;-)

[Critters2]

42. Where ya gonna get the plutonium? nt

[karlrschneider]

44. My guy knows a guy

in Aaaafrica....

;-)

[gratuitous]

45. 1.21 gigawatts?!

Hmmmm. I'll need a small amount of plutonium, you're right. Perhaps my sources in northern Africa?

[Betty]

18. I always end up next to one of these

in a parking lot and can't see around them in my little, efficient Corolla.

[LeftHander]

19. Rugged Individualism....?!

more like hubris and excess....

[mikeytherat]

27. I love the smell of dichotomy in the morning!

"High gas prices and changing tastes have turned consumers off SUVs, the once-hot emblems of rugged American individualism."

"During the 1990s, SUV sales quadrupled, generating huge profits for Detroit's automakers. But consumers are now deserting in droves."

Individualism, defined by doing exactly what everyone else is doing. Apparently, the allure of the huge SUV is: "You are unique, just like everyone else."

:rofl:

mikey_the_rat

[apnu]

31. Yup, they're non-conformist conformists

LOL

[go west young man]

20. Things are definently not going the way of the Detroit fat cats.

Check out the what the smart Japanese are up to. http://www.toyota.com/Yaris/ This car which is one of the most popular in Europe is now being marketed for the U.S. Its priced between $10,500 and $14,000 depending on the model and it gets 34 MPG city and 40 on the highway. It comes with air conditioning and looks great. Even their website is state of the art. Thats smart. It's not a hybrid but at least it gets pretty good gas mileage.

[maseman]

23. We make over $100K HH Income

I drive a 4 cylinder 1999 Pontiac Grand Am and my wife is in a 2003 Honda Civic. We have two boys 8 and 2 and a 35 lb. dog. Yeah it is tough, cramped at times. But we have saved (according to my figures) about $1,755 in the past year in gasoline. Plus we conserved about 585 gallons of gasoline over one year.

(PS I heat my house with a wood stove also. Hard work, but also saved about $500 and used much less natural gas.)

What has Bush done to sacrifice and conserve? Every time he fires up those four General Electric Turbo-fan engines on his 747 he is using thousands of gallons of fuel. Asshat.

[Hepburn]

30. Let's hear it for Honda!

I got a used 2001 Honda CRV ~~ built on a Civic frame. Best car I have ever owned. Screw Ford and LMBO: I can now get more for my CRV than I paid for it and I have had it for over 2 years. I get 28 mpg on the average and getting it serviced is easy on the budget. All the snooty jerks in my neighborhood are into Mercedes and Lexus SUVs. IMO, what a waste of time and money. My Honda is by far the better vehicle of either of those two cars. It carries more and it is a real SUV ~~ not some rip off SUV made by a manufacturer for people more interested in what symbol is on the outside of their cars. Jeez, some of my neighbors worry about what they put in the back end of their SUVs because they have off white interiors. LMBO!! Give me my little CRV and I will carry anything, anywhere! It even comes with a folding table and ice chest compacted into the space below the cargo space in the rear of the car. Great sound system and the seats in the rear can be folded down individually. So, when all of us go to the beach or on a picnic...the Mercedes and Lexuses stay home and my Honda goes on the road.

So....all SUVs are not those monster vehicles made for people who are clueless. If you want a real SUV that gets you there and back in comfort and economy, I would tell ya ~~ get a Honda CRV!

[Anakin Skywalker]

66. You Must Hate America!

Advocating a foreign product?! How dare you?! You want the terrarists to win, don't you?!

:sarcasm:

[Hepburn]

68. Pssssssst.....

....Honda IS made in the USA.....:hi:

[Anakin Skywalker]

69. I Was Mocking

the jingoistic freepers. :) In my state, it is not unusual to see freeper types driving their big, bad trucks and SUVs with all those cliche stickers and magnets on them. The bigger the vehicle, the better to display the patriotism. More room!

[Hepburn]

73. I knew you were...

...I knew you knew the facts...the info was posted for the "uninformed," aka FREEPERS!

Check out this toon....seems pretty appropriate for this thread...LOL...

[maseman]

70. I mentioned my Pontiac above

Piece of shit. Although it is paid off and is a 4 cylinder so I keep it. I needed a small plastic replacement part for my headlights. $13. Probably cost about 15 cents to make. No wonder GM is going out of business.

[Javaman]

35. Great little car...if you can find one...

a buddy and I went out to test drive one last weekend. My buddy had set up the test drive a week before. When we arrived at the dealer, the test drive car was sold. We were able to actually sit in one, but that one had already been sold, in fact, when we were driving around the lot hopefully looking for another one with the salesperson, I noticed it being driven off by it's new owner.

the soonest the salesperson said he could get my buddy one was 1 month, I didn't think that was too bad.

We went on to the honda dealer to test drive the Honda Fit. they had none. The salesperson stated that can't keep them in. The earliest date for delivery...March.

I had the opportunity to talk to a rep for Honda, he told me that there will be a hybrid version of the Fit coming out next year.

I'm not in any rush to get a new car just yet, I have been taking the bus and as a result I fill up my car only once a month and with a few other changes in my habit, I think I can even cut that to every 2 months.

I'm saving all my pennies now, I want a hybrid diesel plug in. My dream car.

[NickB79]

38. All the small cars are sold out

Just looking around at the local dealers here, all the small imports are flying off the lots.

No Toyota Yaris in stock.

No Scion xA's or xB's in stock.

No Honda Fit's in stock, they've been out for over a month.

Only one Nissan Versa left in stock.

Chevy dealer has a few Aveos left, but they're getting harder to find.

[Javaman]

48. Let me apply some freeper logic here...

There are none because no one wants them. No demand, no stock...

Why do you hate America?

:sarcasm:

[Tesha]

22. How tragic for them all. (NT)

[warrens]

24. If ya really wanted the thing, resale value shouldn't matter

I've hated the things since I first saw them. Either they fit your lifestyle, in which case 20 miles a gallon ain't bad, or they don't, in which case you were buying for status, not need, and I have no sympathy.

As for hummers, I laugh out loud when I watch people filling up across the street from me for nearly $4 a gallon. A hummer is god's way of telling you you're an idiot with too much money. Sort of a Stupid Tax.

[RedEarth]

25. UAV's(Urban Assault Vehicles) taking a hit.....too bad

The most God awful pieces of s... ever made. Wasteful, dangerous and destructive.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

32. Another penis enlargement solution...

Is tried and found wanting.

Oh, the humanity.

[Rambis]

34. Yeah! let them eat cake!

I won't be crying for these people. I hope it hits 4$ even though it will put a MAJOR strain on our budget. I want all big vehicles off the road asap so we can get moving into smaller cars soonest.

[karlrschneider]

36. It's finally sinking in?

:nopity:

[Arugula Latte]

43. Bwa ha ha!

Nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah etc. etc. etc.

[yorkiemommie1]

47. i see a lot of them parked along the streets

w/ ' for sale ' signs on them. SoCal

[zreosumgame]

49. LOL tough nuggies anus-brains

you bought a status symbol that only symbolized selfisness and stupidity, and guess what, you're screwed! Deal with it morans!

[Mountainman]

50. Just curious about the metal attitude of those who have joy at this

I don't want to rain on your parade, enjoy enjoy, but what is it in the back of your brain that brings you such joy at this? it seems a little ghoulish or mentally off some what.

[LostinVA]

58. Post #51 explains it for me perfectly

[Tyrone Slothrop]

59. I'm kind of happy about it

Because these vehicles are destroying the planet that I live on. And, in most cases, they're completely unecessary. I live in NYC, and I can't tell you how many people you see driving around NYC in SUVs. The vast majority of people don't need them.

Americans are rapidly consuming and destroying the world's resources -- much, much more quickly than any other people and, relatively speaking, we have a pretty small population. I'll applaud anything that causes us to stop consuming as much.

[zreosumgame]

61. well let's see ...

they are over weight for most roads (technically illegal to be over 3,500 lbs here in CA) but of course that did not stop all those morons from buying them, destroying the road sufaces then whining about how much it costs to repair all that damage. And that MY taxes have been raised to cover.


Just for starters. any other questions?

[AnneD]

51. I actually lived in a place where 4WD

was essential. In the mountains I had to deal with ice, snow, mud, and wildlife. You were screwed if you drove anything less. It was ranch country so you saw a lot of trucks too. That I can understand. And here where we get floodwaters-a high profile vehicle is nice because it is too easy to flood out. But in the bulk of places in America-these vehicles are nothing more than foolish vanity and I don't have any sympathy. There are many vehicles that can haul a team around AND get good gas mileage.

[Sapere aude]

54. I know a woman who lives and works in Ridgecrest, CA

She drives a big Ford SUV. She drives about 3 miles a day to work and back. She doesn't leave town much on the weekends. I'll bet dollars to donuts she burns less gas than anyone posting on this tread.

It has less to do with what you drive and everything to do with how much gas you burn.

[Johnny Noshoes]

76. Okay so she uses less gas

big deal. If she ONLY drives those 3 miles a day and doesn't leave much on weekends - WHY does she feel the need to drive the big SUV? Oh that's right the ad industry convinced her she'd be safer in the big ass truck and she fell for it.

[TommyO]

79. Perfect candidate for an electric car

or a good pair of walking shoes, a bicycle perhaps?

[NickB79]

89. So why'd she waste $15,000 on something she doesn't need?

She put herself into unnecessary debt buying a $30,000+ SUV when she could have purchased a very nice small car for half that price. Not only would she save money on the car payments, insurance and gas, but also she would have helped conserve many hundreds of pounds of plastic and steel.

In her case, you're right: her gas savings would be minimal if she got a smaller car. But her car payment savings would have been huge had she purchased a Civic, Corolla, Camry, Malibu, etc. Why are Americans in such a rush to jump into debt when they don't have to?

[Mountainman]

91. Why does it matter to you what she buys? Do we all need to live

the same DUer approved life styles?

[NickB79]

93. No, she can buy whatever she wants

She can also go into debt like everyone else who spent unwisely when the economy comes crashing down in the next few years.

I'm not critical of her specifically, but of the way we Americans in general spend money on frivolous things. Unfortunately, this mindset of rampant consumerism will hurt us all in the long run. As we deplete our resources, buy houses we can't afford, run up credit card debt and neglect our savings, all people will be affected when the system falls apart. Those of us who save instead of splurge will probably do better than others, but we will all feel the pain.

[Roland99]

52. Rumors are the Ford plants here will take a hit. Maybe that's why gas is..

dropping like a rock. $0.62 drop in 2 1/2 weeks.


This is just more of the dominoes falling started when the housing bubble started popping.

[Xithras]

55. I love my Forester.

It'll go anywhere an SUV will go, and I get 30+MPG. Two of my SUV owning friends used to laugh at my "miniUV", but nowadays both of them are driving smaller cars too (one has an Outback, the other went all the way down to a Focus).

It's all the offroad without the ego. Oh, and my resale value is doing just fine!

[Quakerfriend]

56. Love my Highlander Hybrid! ...Mostly because I could not

stand the GUILT I felt driving my old (12 yo)Explorer. ...Wish I could have bought a Prius...but, we've got kids and dogs.

[Debbi801]

63. that is exactly why I bought a Ford Escape Hybrid....

My husband has a 2004 Prius and loves it. But, we needed one car that would haul 3 kids, a dog, sports equipment, etc. I clung to my mini van for a long time, but finally caved in May and traded it in for my Escape. Instead of an average of 19 MPG, I'm getting 33 MPG and we're not at all cramped for space.

:hi:

[susanna]

71. My quandary as well.

I take delivery of a Ford Escape Hybrid Friday. I drove a tiny car for the last 15 years, carrying around a big dog for 10 of them...so I'm not keeping up with the Joneses (or anyone else). I drove my prior car 'til it died. I'll do the same with this one. I also garden extensively, and the extra non-seat cargo area will be wonderful for me. So, I move on. But it is a hybrid, and I do drive city miles, making it the best choice for me from any angle. It even gets more MPG city than my old tiny 4-cyl manual tranny car (36 vs. 30).

Prius, Accord or Civic hybrids are still too small for transporting a big dog. Though my best girl passed on earlier this year, I am actively looking for another companion animal because they bring such joy. Because of that, dogs figure into my car-buying habits even if I don't have one at the moment. Also, as many pet owners can attest, a hundred pound canine can trash a backseat and leave Picasso-worthy window-spit paintings like you've never seen. No thanks - been there, done that, owned stock in Windex. This time around, any dog is going to be trained to be crated/restrained in a car, and now I will have room for that. Well, at least that's my plan. :-)

[Ilsa]

57. The perfect 'toon for this:

[katty]

60. HA!! yes, good one...can't give 'em away! sell house,live in SUV

[Anakin Skywalker]

62. Aww. American Males

not having as much pee pee complex these days?

[MikeyJones]

64. The American car industry did it to themselves.....

Instead of being like their Asian and European counterparts they chose to continue to spit out huge-ass gas-guzzling SUVs and gas-chugging Silverado penis-growers for a huge profit all the while high gas prices continued month after month to squeeze out their more modest-living customers who make up quite the bulk of SUV drivers.

Instead of being like their Japanese rivals -- who were busy making fuel efficient vehicles instead of worrying simply about hillbilly power and size -- they have now put themselves 10 years behind their competetors. Not to mention they were stupid as hell for agreeing to finance all those health benefits and pensions when they knew the pricing volitility of the health industry -- which rises at almost twice the rate of inflation every year.

They did it to themselves and sadly and strangely I have no sympathy for them.

[RamboLiberal]

72. And it's not like the A'Hole American Car Companies

hadn't been down this road before. They did the same sh*t in the 70's and got caught with their big *ss gas guzzlers back then suddenly not selling when the energy crisis and the oil embargo hit. Detroit had no compacts to sell so the Japanese and Germans cleaned their clock back then as well.

[susanna]

74. Objectively, again...

This is true. Read "The Reckoning" by David Halberstam for a "haven't we been here before?" moment. Great read.

[MikeyJones]

82. I'll have to check it out, sounds like a good book. nm

[MikeyJones]

81. Tell me about it.....

America's love affair with size will be its downfall. Now with China and India and other semi-huge nations like Indonesia and Pakistan adding tens if not hundreds of thousands of drivers per year we're going to see a sharp increase in price as demand will simply outpace supply. We had better go to compacts now if we want to survive. I think we're going to get caught with our pants down though with out inadequate public transportation systems and with our trucks and SUVs. Just give it time.

[susanna]

75. Objectively...

The Asian competitors totally got into the SUV craze, and many of their vehicles are WORSE in MPG than domestic brands. So the idea that it was all flowers and environmentalism on their side is questionable.

Not to say that they did not understand world forces better than the domestics; they did. Then again, maybe they got lucky just like the domestics did with SUVs in the 90s. The auto industry is weird that way; sometimes you rock, sometimes you don't.

On edit: I work in the auto industry and have some grasp of the dynamics, not that it's a good thing on most days...

[TommyO]

80. Their SUVs are primarily for the US market

and they have a huge portfolio of small cars that are sold in other countries as well as the US. The American not-so-big-three don't have enough smaller vehicles in their portfolio to compete with Japan and Europe.

[MikeyJones]

84. The Japanese corps have almost a complete monopoly on the sedan market

The Euro companies continue to be a cute cult brand -- like Jettas and Beetles for college kids -- but for the most part it's Honda, Toyota, and Nissan that's tearing and ripping into the American market. For some reason most of the sedans produced by American companies are ugly and gawdy looking.

[TommyO]

85. There are a few good looking American sedans

The Ford Fusion looks great, and the upcoming Saturn Aura looks absolutely amazing, and I'm a big fan of the Cadillac CTS. Speaking of cult brands, I happen to be a VW owner and I've been very pleased with the VW Passat. I know that VW has had quality issues over the past few years, but it seems that they're working those kinks out, what they really need to do is come back down-market a little bit to be more competitive, but the current Jetta and Passats can get very pricey.

It's a good thing that each of the "big three" have European ties that they'll be able to leverage, although I don't think they'll be quite as effective as some of the smaller Japanese and Korean cars over the next few years.

[tammywammy]

86. VW Rabbit

IT's slightly smaller than the Jetta, but better cargo room. Same engine in both and the Rabbit is priced less than a Jetta. The Rabbit's been so hot that we can't keep them on the lot for more than a day or so. The salespeople see it being off loaded from the truck and are already on the phone with customers.

Also, the Jetta isn't quite the college kids car. I've noticed with the current A5 Jetta, it's a lot more families getting into it. The A5 is a lot bigger that the previous model.

I have a Beetle TDI. :loveya: I would have jumped all over the new Rabbit if it came in a TDI when I got the Beetle last October. Maybe in 08. :shrug:

As the American public demands for smaller cars comes, companies like Toyota, Honda, VW will import more of them. (Besides the Fit, Rabbit, etc.)

[MikeyJones]

83. Maybe the foreign BIG SUVs and trucks are worse in terms of mpg, but....

they tend to sell more mid-size and small-size SUVs rather than huge Suburban and Expedition sized gas guzzlers. There are some smaller foreign(not really since they're made here but I digress) SUVs like the XTerra that have better gas mileage than many domestic model cars. I find that part hillarious. It's the fact that the only "small" hits Ford can spit out are the Ranger and the Mustang speaks volumes. Not to mention GM has almost no hits in the small to midsize range should make you think.

[MikeyJones]

65. What's even sadder is I feel for the union types on here who have lost....

it all to the fact they chose to put their faith in the automotive corporations. They're blind loyalty to their companies seems to have blown up in their face. It's very sad because these are the people who make up the heart and soul of this great country.

[earth mom]

78. I feel sorry for all those who will lose jobs over this.

Though I hardly think any of the union workers feel blind loyalty to any of these companies at this point. If anything they feel betrayed. A lot of em have lost a great paying union job that has now been utterly trashed by these companies with the encouragement of * & Co., who hate unions and have done their damndest to kill most of em off! :grr:

[Mountainman]

88. I've read most of the posts here and I got to tell you it is a real

surprise to me to see the glee that some DUers have at this turn of events. Not that it isn't a good thing that more fuel efficient cars may now come into popularity, that would be a good thing and being happy about that is not what I'm talking about.

It is hard for me to put into words but it is a real turn off and a bit disgusting to read some of the posts here. There really is a class war going on and lot of DUers posting here are proving that. I think it makes us less of a political entity to not allow others have what we can't have. This is not a socialist country were we all need to remain at some median level of material wealth.

Yes I am really turned off by some of the posts here and I'm sure I'll get flamed but I don't mind. There is some good in capitalism and the striving for wealth. Yes there is a lot of negative things too but the failed attempts at socialism since the 1940's show the fallacy in what is in the hearts of a lot of us.

I feel the same thing reading many of the posts in this tread as I feel when I read freeper threads. If anyone feels the same thing or can help me explain what I am trying to say I wish you would add to this. OK flame away.

[NickB79]

90. No flames, but may I suggest some reading?

Specifically, the Environment/Energy and Peak Oil boards here at DU. Some of us here read what is happening with regard to climate change and oil depletion, and see the decline of the US automakers and their SUV's as a necessary evil. I feel much sadness for the Americans losing their jobs due to the Big Three crashing. 30 miles north of me, the St. Paul, MN Ford plant that produces Ranger pickup trucks will be closing in the next year, leaving thousands of people unemployed. Yet, if we as Americans continue to support the current way of business, we will continue to burn huge amounts of oil, increase CO2 emissions, and come to rely even more heavily on foreign oil supplies.

Americans have to realize that our current way of living is not sustainable. We can't continue to use 25% of the world's resources for 5% of the world's population while China and India want their share as well. The gas-guzzling SUV's and trucks on the US roadways are just the most visible aspect of that insustainability, and as such they draw the most wrath.

I'm afraid that the current generation will have to feel much pain over the next decade or two so that the generations after us won't live in abject poverty. I'm only 26; I'll have to suffer through worst of the ecological and social upheavels that are bearing down on us. But if some hardships today means society doesn't implode 20 years from now, so be it.

[Mountainman]

92. I agree with what you are saying but that is not my point at all.

I am in favor of all that you talk about. I'm talking about people posting here saying things like suv owners don't need them so shouldn't have them or that suv owners have penis size problems etc. That is coming from a class warfare feeling I think. I am also glad that we may be onto more fuel efficient transportation and in using a smaller amount of the world's resources. I am 60 years old and I have been reading about the distribution and use of the world's resources for over 40 years. In the sixties we talked a lot about that. I understand and agree with how you feel about that.

[Coventina]

95. You better believe there is a "class war" going on!

Of course, criticism of the rich is off limits.

The "haves" & "have mores" are allowed to loot company pensions, see their incomes rise about 500%, buy their way into government, have their taxes cut more than any other segment of society, secure a system of inherited wealth...I could go on & on....

BUT, if we criticize their ostentatious lifestyles, well, that's just beyond acceptable?

"Class warfare" is a term the right wing uses whenever we do anything to try to fight back. Don't buy into it.

[Bigmack]

96. Class war...

is over. We lost.

[InkAddict]

94. When the jobs dry up in your town,

and you are forced to drive up to 150 miles a day to reach the new one without carting around your very own gas station, Cherokee's stood up to the vibration of the road. Let's here it for the old JEEPS.