Caracas takes golf courses for housing

[Judi Lynn]

Tuesday, August 29, 2006 · Last updated 6:51 p.m. PT

Caracas takes golf courses for housing

By FABIOLA SANCHEZ
ASSOCIATED PRESS WRITER



A member of the Country Club plays golf as his caddy stands by in Caracas, Venezuela, Tuesday, Aug. 29, 2006. The city mayor's office has decreed the expropriation of all three major golf courses in Caracas under eminent domain. (AP Photo/Leslie Mazoch)

CARACAS, Venezuela -- Three major Caracas golf courses, long favored by the city's wealthy, are being expropriated to build housing for thousands of poor and middle class Venezuelans, officials said Tuesday.

The city expropriations, which will likely generate new friction between supporters and opponents of President Hugo Chavez, are part of an ambitious government effort to provide more homes amid an acute housing shortage that has driven up real estate prices.

Mayor Juan Barreto's office has ordered the "forced acquisition" of two golf courses and will soon issue another decree expropriating a third course in the ritzy hills of southern Caracas, city attorney Juan Manuel Vadell told The Associated Press.

Vadell said the golf courses' owners have 30 days to appear before the mayor's office, starting a negotiation period in which a commission will eventually decide on fair compensation for the courses.
(snip/...)

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1102AP_Venezuela_No_Golf.html



Caracas Country Club



Caracas barrio club

[Redstone]

1. Kind the opposite of how we do it here,yes?

Redstone

[robinlynne]

2. Now that's what eminent domain was meant to do! I'm glad there is a

president somewhere who gets it!

[Casablanca]

106. Hugo has really crossed the line now

Expect an air strike on Caracas within the week.

[Kickoutthejams23]

3. Something about this is bad.

And not just because I play golf.....

[Judi Lynn]

6. Why don't you ponder on it for a moment and tell DU'ers what it is?

We'd certainly be all ears.

Is it "badder" than _{George W. Bush's} baseball team taking private property in Texas and giving it to his baseball team?

[Kickoutthejams23]

16. I'm against Eminent Domain for sports stadiums as well

as Ikea stores and "planned communities". However this strikes me as something that Mugabe of Zimbabwe would do (or maybe the Chicago city council but I digress). It's fake class warfare that hurts the country overall. It's done for petty political points and is a sign of an out of control ego.


Most countries with half a brain actually build new golf resorts to attract tourists and foreign investment.

And yes I know other countries have taken land from peasant farmers to build these golf courses to attract tourists but maybe Vietnam and Cuba aren't as progressive as Chavez.

http://www.cuba.tc/varadero/solpalmeras.html

http://www.vietnamgolfresorts.com/

[countingbluecars]

17. It's a sign of an "out of control ego"

to build houses for the people? I don't get it.

[Kickoutthejams23]

18. No I stick by my post.

Chavez is becoming more Mugabe like every day. I think a lot of people are already regretting getting on this guys bandwagon. We have been down this road before and it is never very pretty.

[IndianaGreen]

21. That's what Faux News says about Chavez, comparing him to Mugabe

which not only is not true, but it appeals to the racism of Faux's TV audience to link the Brown Chavez to a very powerful Black African man. Mugabe is an authoritarian, while Chavez is quite the opposite.

BTW, this expropriation of the golf courses is not Chavez's doing, but it comes from Caracas Mayor Juan Barreto. How's that for democracy from the bottom up!

[Judi Lynn]

22. Oh, YEAH! You're so right. I had forgotten about that small detail.

He sounds like a much finer mayor from the opposition idiot, Alfredo Peña, who shut down the people's tv station, "CatiaTV."

Opposition Mayor Shuts Down Community TV Station
http://www.ipsnews.net/interna.asp?idnews=19274

Thanks for mentioning the distinction!

[Kickoutthejams23]

25. I don't watch faux news so I really had no idea.

(AS I wipe the egg off my face) It's not just this it is visiting brutal dictators (Syria Iran) and a feeling he is about to declare himself President for life. Mugabe was well thought off we he came to power. He had a lot of goodwill on his side and was quite progressive. he of course turned into a a monster. I certainly don't think Chavez is that monster. I think he is flirting at times with going down that road.

On Edit: This isn't about poor people this is about attacking his enemies. That is what makes it so wrong. It's as if Bush took advantage of a hurricane to clean out the public housing in NOLA. Very different result same basic tactic. Attack those who won't vote for you anyway and reward those that will with no respect for property rights or rule of law.

[earth mom]

23. That's a reich wing viewpoint you've got there.

Dude, after reading your posts here and elsewhere around DU, I am totally convinced that you are completely lost!

Why in the hell is the road Chavez is going down not pretty?! You gotta be kidding me! :wtf:


FYI: Chavez is a leader to be emulated. We should only be so lucky to have someone like him in charge! Instead we have leaders of this country that are so damn greedy and so self serving as to NOT do anything positive for the MAJORITY of people of this country! Look no further than 9/11, Iraq, Katrina, the Bankruptcy Bill and Eminent Domain! The reTHUGlicans are screwing the people here over morning noon and night!

THEY ARE BASTARDS! EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM!!! :puke:

[LostinVA]

30. Chavez is nothing like Mugabe

He isn't throwing people out of their homes or off their ranches: he's seizing valuable land that's a fricking GOLF COURSE... which I already consider a horrible waste of land and resources. Parks are one thing, because they are available for all to enjoy.

[Tesha]

33. Yeah -- eventually the poor end up eating the rich, right?

And we know a diet that's so high in fat is bad for the poor.

Tesha

[Judi Lynn]

19. This thread has been visited by greatness!

Wisdom from the great beyond!



On edit: hard to imagine there are people who imagine the poor should be stuck to the sides of hills, in tin-roofed shacks, with no running water, no sewer lines, no electricity, no heating, no fire hydrants for the fire department to hook up to, in case there's ANOTHER one of the devastating fires which wipes out the entire shantytown, and no defense against driving rains which loosen the houses from their shaky foundations as they plunge down the hill, crushing everyone in and around them in mudslides, etc., etc.

Yeah, you apparently don't see the importance of pristine greens untouched by the unstylishly clothed, brown skinned poor, and their shabby ways! Neither do I!

[Judi Lynn]

20. Sorry, I don't see any information on your links concerning private

property being stripped away from broken, suffering poor people. Maybe you have something to link which relates to this idea more closely.

Of course I can imagine you're driven by your utter ABSENCE of obsessive self-interest, and "every man for himself" attitudes, so prevalent among the porky right-wingers.

[Kickoutthejams23]

26. Um land turned into Golf Courses

In Vietnam and Cuba are by definition the peoples land. Probably used for grazing farming or whatever. If Cuba and Vietnam are on a Golf Course building kick to attract foreign capital to their countries using the peoples land.

[Judi Lynn]

27. That's quite the reach, isn't it? The money GOES to the people.

Do you have any links describing how the governments of post-revolutionary Cuba, and post-colonial VietNam have taken from the very poor?

From everything I've heard, the properties were always appropriated from the very wealthy who were living parasitically off the labor of the poor.

From all indications, the "poor" of Cuba most surely has steadily improved in every conceivable way since the days before the last revolution. Maybe you've heard something from the South Florida reactionary gusanos the entire rest of the world doesn't know, of course, including the DU'ers who've BEEN to Cuba.

[Kickoutthejams23]

28. I'm not attacking Cuba and Vietnam

I'm pointing out that even these countries are increasing the amount of golf courses available for economic development.

[LostinVA]

29. If it wasn't for IKEA, I wouldn't be able to afford decent furniture

And household goods. Don't shop there if you don't want to, but "being aginst them" is elitist.

And, re: the golf courses: good on Chavez for doing this. The barrios down there are horrifying -- rich people shouldn't get to waste this space while the poorest of the poor live worse than alot of livestock.

Viva Chavez!

[alcibiades_mystery]

71. Maybe WHY it's done is not as important as results

Top tell you the truth, if I lived in one of those slums, and then suddenly lived in a better place, where my kids could breath some frsh air, wouldn't really give a fuck 1) that some rich people couldn't play golf there anymore, 2) that the government undertook the project for petty political aims, or 3) what some fucking American douchebag living in relative comfort all those miles away think about it.

Just sayin'...

[toopers]

111. Anytime you take private property from one person . . .

and give it to another . . . it is bad. This is not what eminent domain is suppose to be used for.

[IndianaGreen]

10. The best lands were stolen by the rich, and now they bitch?

How do you think the rich got rich? If you think they earned their wealth by the sweat of their brows, then you probably also believe that John D. Rockefeller made his money by saving his wages.

[killbotfactory]

54. They can have golf courses in the city when people stop living in shacks

and get killed whenever a mudslide happens.

[WhiteTara]

75. don't bring the dirty poor in my nice clean

neighborhood? Or did I miss a sarcasm button somehwere?

[Bozita]

4. Now, THAT'LL get Bush's attention!

I remember reading that book, "It Takes a Golf Course ...

... to Raise a Child."

[Cassandra]

5. Good for them but...

I hope they leave some green space around the housing for the residents to enjoy.

[Judi Lynn]

11. DU'ers got a treat several months ago when a DU'er returned from

Caracas and posted his own shots of some of these urban gardens the new Venezuelan government has been hard at work helping city dwellers create inside the cities: organoponicos. I've misplaced my link to them, but these photos are from the internet:

[Judi Lynn]

13. More photos of Caracas urban agriculture, food for the poor:

[IndianaGreen]

14. It was Cuba that took the lead in organic gardening under Raul Castro's

leadership. There are many articles in the web about Cuba organic gardens, here is one:

Cuba & Venezuela Lead Global Organic Revolution

>From Green Left Weekly, February 2, 2005

Food, poverty and ecology: Cuba & Venezuela lead the way

Jon Lamb

Cuba's shining example

A nation that has been forced to endure major economic upheavals and
constraints, Cuba is a shining example of what can be done to diversify
agricultural production and meet energy needs in a sustainable way.

<snip>

The most significant problems for Cuba centered on how to make up for the
loss of food imports (57%) and the cheap fuel that it consumed (and re-sold
as a major foreign exchange earner).

In 1993, the policy of "linking the land to the people" was initiated. As a
means to rapidly lift food production, the Cuban government recognised that
it needed to reorganise state-owned land, transforming nearly all of it over
to co-operatives. A new economic incentive was introduced for the
co-operatives to help establish redistribution based upon pay according to
the final results (the more you produce, the more you get paid).

In conjunction with this process was the development of "new land" in urban
areas with the creation of organoponicos (raised bed organic gardens),
cultivation of vacant lots and parks and support for intensive patio
gardens. The reorganisation and planning of food production was enhanced by
the level of scientific research that the Cuban state had put into
biotechnology and agricultural science.

The success of Cuba's food production and resource management has been
astounding and is continuing.

By 1999, there were gains in yields for 16 of 18 major crops.
Potato, cabbage, malanga, bean and pepper yields are higher compared to
Central America and above the average yields in the world.

http://www.organicconsumers.org/corp/cubavenez20205.cfm

Golf courses are extremely harmful to the environment and water tables. It takes tons of chemicals to keep that grass pretty and green. Think of the collective benefits of turning some of our golf courses into organic gardens.

[Judi Lynn]

45. Forgot to thank you last night after reading your post for the information

It's AMAZING what that island has done in the face of unbelievable hardship which would have crushed a weaker people.

Their orgaponicos, and ordinary agriculture has become a modern wonder of the world, with people streaming there from all over the world, INCLUDING the U.S. (which has applied the steady crushing embargo over 45 years which necessitated these extraordiary measuresS!).

I heard in 2000 that the early advisors who helped Cubans get such a great approach to radical agriculture were Israelis, and today, there are Israeli investors in Cuba in both agriculture and in hotels, including one powerful Israeli former spy who cautions people to forget trying to read anything political into his involvement.

Your entire link is important. Here's more to consider from the link:

Within a relatively short period of time - and amidst considerable
opposition - Chavez's rural and urban land reform measures have given
millions of peasants, urban poor and indigenous people increased economic
security and a leg-up out of poverty and squalor. The agricultural
development law introduced at the end of 2001 is shaking up an unjust land
tenure system where less than 2% of the population owns 60% of the land.

David Raby, from the University of Liverpool's Institute of Latin American
studies notes that:

"The Venezuelan agrarian reform goes beyond satisfying peasant land hunger
and alleviating poverty. It is based as far as possible on organic practices
and is intended as the foundation stone of an entirely new social and
economic model, oriented towards self-sufficiency, sustainability and
"endogenous" development.

The land reform laws are thoroughly despised by the Venezuelan landowning
elite and capitalist class, who have denounced it as an act of
"Castrocommunism" and an attempt to introduce "Cuban slavery". One of the
very first things the leaders of the failed 2002 coup did was attempt to
overturn these laws.

Due to the high dependence on the oil industry, Venezuela's arable lands
are chronically underutilised and mismanaged, resulting in the import of
some 70% of Venezuela's food. While there is plenty of rich agricultural
land available, agricultural production is low - only 6% of the GDP.
Venezuela's agricultural sector is the least productive in all of Latin
America.

Previous land reform programs intended to benefit peasants and landless
people resulted in land eventually being taken over by cattle barons and
other large landowners. According to Ricaute Leonete, chairperson of the
National Land Institute, these landowners "aren't even capitalists.
Capitalists make use of their land Š In Europe capitalism got rid of this
kind of parasitic behaviour a long time ago".

In a 2003 interview with the North American Congress on Latin America,
Chavez described the land reform policy in Venezuela as an agrarian
revolution:

"For 40 years they've been talking about agrarian reform, and it's done
nothing but reinforce the old colonial system. First, we're putting into
effect the constitutional principles to obtain a real and lasting change in
the rural areas-principles like prioritising and taking seriously food
security.'
(snip/...)

The quote in this snip is so clearly true:

"In Europe capitalism got rid of this kind of parasitic behaviour a long time ago".

Yep, they DID get rid of this stuff in Europe, and that's why the same people seized so much land in in countries like Venezuela which were so much kinder to wealthy European land grabbers, to hell with the citizens! Lord Vestey, for example.



Vestey, absentee land grabber.

[Aridane]

31. I was in Venezuela last year

In the short time that I was there (a fortnight) I spoke to as many people as I could and I really did get the impression that the vast majority of people are in favour of Chávez. In Barinas and Merida, there is a great deal of support for him. I remember listening to passionate tales about people's involvement in quashing the coup and the general strike. People feel they now have a say (however small that may be) in the direction their country is going. That has to be worth something, IMHO.
Anyone who hasn't seen it yet, should watch the Irish documentary "The Revolution will not be televised". It's brilliant!. You can find it on Google Video.
I did not spend any time in Caracas so I can't speak for the people there.

Well, just my two cents...

[Judi Lynn]

46. My gosh! I just looked up the towns you mentioned, & they're BEAUTIFUL.

Here's a quick google images grab of Barinas:



Barinas



Merida

More Merida images
http://images.google.com/images?q=Merida,+Venezuela&ndsp=20&svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2004-37,GGLD:en&start=0&sa=N

Unbelievably beautiful! What a trip.
Your comments were very helpful. Welcome to D.U.

[Mark E. Smith]

7. One of the few things Imus ever said that didn't make me throw up

"Golf is a sport responsible for keeping alive millions of our most useless citizens."

[cigsandcoffee]

8. Eminent Domain is still bad law.

Even in Venezuela. Not all future leaders of that country (or any country) may have such benevolent purposes like Chavez when deciding that private property belongs to the government instead of the people who paid for and own it.

[brokensymmetry]

15. I agree.

What happens when the political wheel turns - as it will -
and the poor and middle class homeowners are thrown out on
their ears?

The rule of law is, I think, more important than politics.

For those who disagree - think how much you like * signing
statements and illegal wars.

[RangerSmith]

34. It really shows

that a lot of people are only against this kind of stuff if there is nothing in it for "them."

It's not that they oppose the act based on principle or ethics or even law.

You see it all the time here with the Castro supporters. They'd be crying from the highest roof tops if bush did a tenth of the shit Castro does, but because they feel the benefit of the sham would be in their favor, they happily support it.

The only difference I see any more is ideology. The end justifies the means seems to be the prevailing motto all the way around.

[alarimer]

35. But it happens here ALL the time

Look at that case in Connecticut in which the STOLE people's houses to build malls or some bullshit, just because the city would get higher taxes from it than from a residence. And that bullshit was held up by the SUPREME COURT. Of course no one screams when it is the people losing their property for a private enterprise and it would NEVER happen if it was some rich asshole's property that was taken for a highway or standium. It would never happen because those people have the money to fight it and make it too expensive for the government to steal their land. And emininent domain is stealing and bad law but I LOVE to see rich fucks get what they deserve. It is about time someone did something for the people instead of pissing on them as usual.

[gorbal]

37. Exactly

I would not criticize Venezuela for this, they have to prioritize for their own people.

[brokensymmetry]

41. Yes, it happens here.

And I hate it. Such legalized theft is, in my opinion,
absolutely wrong.

As for no screaming...it is apparent you weren't next door
when it came on the news. I assure you there was some
screaming. :evilgrin:

[IndianaGreen]

9. Your pictures of the country club vs the barrio club

are so typical of the disparity between the few haves and the many have nots that is so characteristic of Latin America. Our own country is slowly becoming that way: the rich are getting richer, and everyone else is getting poorer.

[petronius]

12. I've always thought that eminent domain should always be a last resort,

but the sort of public use described here would be (IMO) a legal and appropriate use of ED in the U.S. as well. The only part that makes it news is that it's being applied to the country club set rather than to the homes of the poor and middle class.

When the complaining golf course owners/users go to complain, they should be required to open their own books and demonstrate the above-boardness of their own business dealings before they get a hearing...

[Judi Lynn]

24. Opposition Paper: Attorney General backs potential seizure of golf course

Caracas, Wednesday August 23 , 2006
Attorney General backs potential seizure of golf course

Attorney General Isaías Rodríguez endorsed Wednesday a proposal made Tuesday by Caracas Mayor Juan Barreto on the need to seize golf courses in the capital city.

However, he refrained from making any comments on the tone used by the official. On Tuesday night, during the swearing-in ceremony of the members of the Metropolitan Public Policy-Making Council, Barreto lashed out at Chacao and Baruta Mayors Leopoldo López and Henrique Capriles Radonski, respectively.

"Indeed, the money spent in preserving or keeping one single meter of a golf course could be used to sustain 20 families. Meditating on this fact is quite appropriate," he emphasized.

For his part, Ombudsman Germán Mundaraín refused to give any opinion on the event. "We, lawyers, are meant to construe the law. We do not ought to interpret the speeches either of Juan Barreto or anyone else."
(snip/)

http://english.eluniversal.com/2006/08/23/en_pol_art_23A770161.shtml

[Scurrilous]

32. Chavez...

...expropriating golf courses to improve the lie of the poor. :thumbsup:

[hogwyld]

36. Now, if he would only seize their mansions

And subdivide them for the poor, there would be a real chance for equality.

[atomicdawg38]

38. U realize

This will hurt foreign investment.

[XemaSab]

39. What a cynical view of the wealthy of the world, including Americans!

"Shit, I would go invest in Venezuela, but there are no golf courses in Caracas, so I guess I won't."

If your statement is at all true, that makes us FAR uglier than Chavez.

[RangerSmith]

44. No, you don't get it... it has nothing to do with Golf Courses for play

and everything to do with Nationalizing "stuff."

Smart people won't invest in things people can easily steal without recourse.

[XemaSab]

85. I see where you're coming from

The worry on the part of foreign investors that if they invest in, say, a factory that turns out to be a real moneymaker the government will declare eminent domain and they will lose their shirts.

[Judi Lynn]

88. Some people through ignorance (or deliberation) will misrepresent

the truth.

If you take any time at all to do any reading on these stories, you will see that in every case, all effort is made to reach a satisfactory compensation for the property. IN EVERY CASE.

NOTHING IS STOLEN. Whoever passes that bilge around is wasting everyone's time, and has little respect for others.

[XemaSab]

96. Capitalists are still uncomfortable with eminent domain

(as am I in most cases :hide:)

[RangerSmith]

99. hypocrisy in action

So I guess they compensate for lost revenue over the next 20 yrs because they were forced to sell?

Please... you just don't like being exposed for being exactly like the people you claim to despise. You seem to be all for abuse of power as long you support the cause.

I've seen you whine about stolen elections and then praise Castro. Please...

If bush did this chicken shit you'd be crying your eyes out and screaming foul. It's nothing but situational ethics and ideology. The only difference between you and them is the cause. You're proving daily you'd happily support the exact same shit they pull to get what you want.

[Judi Lynn]

101. No whining here. You're lying about that.

You're delirious.

I haven't had nearly enough time available to post much at all on elections. You are inventing.

Situational ethics? Taking some people out of their death traps on the side of the mountain and arranging housing for them in the city, where their jobs are? As opposed to recreation for the wealthy?

Don't make us gag.

[RangerSmith]

105. "us"??

lol... where is this mysterious kool aid line I'm missing? Your delirious if you think eminent domain abuse is a watershed issue for claiming allegiance to the Democratic party... socialist or communist... sure, no doubt.

You know, you could actually take down all the cardboard shacks and build real houses there.

[hogwyld]

40. That's exactly what Venezuela needs!

Kick out the colonial multinationals, and regain control of their country and destiny. They have the resources to tell the rest, we don't want to be your slaves anymore.

[The2ndWheel]

42. Are they rebuilding those broken down homes?

I'm sure this action will just lead to more problems. Everything always seems to.

[Judi Lynn]

47. Of COURSE they're rebuilding them! I've seen photos of neighborhood

groups working hard at rebuilding, young people pouring cement, etc., etc. in their barrios.

Whatever gave you the impression they'd just get up and go live on the golf course, leaving rotting, unoccupied shacks stuck to the sides of the mountain behind them?

You could solve so many of your questions by joining other DU'ers, and DOING YOUR HOMEWORK. Get in there and start researching. You'll be shocked how much you learn, and you'll be surprised how little you knew before you did something about it.

[The2ndWheel]

103. Why take the golf course then? nt

[Judi Lynn]

104. Let's consider using that fine brain Gawd gave you.

Since I'm not the Mayor of Caracas, I can't speak for him.

This easily appears to show the city developing answers for the urgent needs of the many, as opposed to indulging recreational outlets for the very few.

What's so hard to grasp about this?

[The2ndWheel]

107. Why do they need more housing?

Too many people? Alright, if the problem is too many people living in place A, you take place B. Why wouldn't the same problem occur again in place A, and also in place B? Then you have to take place C, and so on.

Or do people want bigger homes? If that's the case, then you'll end up with the same issue in both places. Then you'll have to find somewhere else to build more homes.

This may be answering the urgent needs of the many now, but you'll only create more many. Eventually you run out of answers. Then they'll have to start going into Columbia and other neighboring countries.

Or maybe that won't happen. Except that for thousands of years now human beings have had too many people living in one place, and needing more space, or just wanting more, and needing more space.

[Judi Lynn]

48. I took the liberty of going to look for a photo for you:

Click on this link. It shows boys tearing up a section of crumbling sidewalk in preparation to repairing it:
http://www.salonchingon.com/exhibits/caracas2004/source/barrio-day4-bests-09.html

In streets known for their violence--there are supposedly 50 to 60 murders per weekend here--something else is at work. The barrios bustle with activity and organizing. Almost everyone works solely as a volunteer, like these young men from La Vega rebuilding their neighborhood's sidewalks with government-donated supplies.

That photo was taken from this small slideshow you might find interesting:
http://www.salonchingon.com/exhibits/caracas2004/index2.html

[CollegeDUer]

43. WE MUST INVADE VENEZUELA NOW

The soviet union is back and it starts with a V!!!!

:p

[KamaAina]

49. "Golf Courses for the Homeless": a classic Carlin routine come to life

You don't suppose ol' Hugo might be a Carlin fan, by any chance? :shrug:

[Judi Lynn]

50. Update: Golf between rich and poor

Golf between rich and poor
AP

August 31, 2006 12:00am

GOLF courses have long been the province of the rich and powerful in Venezuela's capital.

But now the mayor's office is taking over the city's three major courses, apparently to build housing for thousands of poor in the city.

The move -- which will generate new friction between supporters and opponents of socialist President Hugo Chavez -- is part of an ambitious government effort to provide more homes for the poor and middle-class.

The golf courses' owners have 30 days to appear at the mayor's office to start negotiations over what the city should pay as compensation. As many as 50,000 homes could be built on 147ha of fairways.
(snip/)

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,20306163-663,00.html

[YankeyMCC]

51. LoL!

[truthisfreedom]

52. certainly is a way of "evening the playing field" as it were. i wonder

what will happen to the property values of the homes adjacent to these new low-cost areas?

[Bacchus39]

53. the National Government now does NOT support the Caracas mayor

lets see how quick the Chavezphiles do a 180 now.

http://english.eluniversal.com/2006/08/30/en_pol_art_30A772593.shtml

[PeaceProgProsp]

55. Real Chavezphiles would remember that after the floods in '92

which killed something like 15,000 people, Chavez was did not make the Caracas Country Club house the homeless (which, apparently, some people recommended). He didn't want to impose political demands on people who would be unwilling to accept them at a time when he was looking to create national unity.

For some reason (perhaps because the elite really do get very defensive about them), he has been very reluctant to impose any hardships on the golf clubs in Caracas.

Whereas his economic reforms, which he is imposing on everyone, are actually creating more wealth for everyone except for a group of people that is probably a tiny subset of the membership of the Caracas golf clubs...

[Bacchus39]

56. do you mean the floods of 1999??

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/573623.stm

I didn't know that golf courses would make suitable shelter???????????????????????????????????????????????????

what type of hardship do you propose for the golf courses? more water hazards?? army ants??

[PeaceProgProsp]

57. Typo. Yes. '99.

People wanted to pitch tents for the homeless at the golf courses and Chavez said no. And if you think the golf courses wouldn't make suitable housing, you should have seen how they were living before the floods.

Did you read this, from your link:

Many choose Caracas, but in the bursting emergency shelters that dot the capital there is hardly an inch to spare.

Many have lost everything
At night, wall to wall mattresses line the floors of places like the United Nations Sports Stadium, temporarily home to 3,000 people alone.

There is no space for any more, but still the refugees come, thousands abandoning their homes in coastal states in a search of somewhere safe to live.

Now the President, Hugo Chavez, has appealed to all Venezuelans with homes that escaped the floods to open their doors to those whose homes did not.

"The time has come to show that we are all Christians," he said. By way of example, his wife Marisabel has opened the presidential residence to children whose parents are missing.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/572697.stm

[Bacchus39]

60. I've seen before the floods, I've seen after the floods

I've been to Venezuela several times. the trip from the airport to Caracas is quite fascinating with the shanty towns.

no different in that respect than any large city in latin america though. Venezuela has the benefit of oil revenue too.

despite Chavez's "successes", apparently money is not being committed to housing as their has been a shortage for years now.

[PeaceProgProsp]

68. OK. But back to the original point.

Chavez didn't push the country clubs to allow tent cities when some people suggested it after the floods, and now they're saying that they don't support the appropriation of the clubs. It's a curious or interesting consistency and real chavezphiles might have noticed it.

[Bacchus39]

79. I think some read what they want to read

do they support expropriation of the land now that the National government doesn't seem to? not that Chavez hasn't seized land previously.

[geek tragedy]

58. This is actually kind of funny.

I'm sure Venezuela's wealthy elite can go play golf somewhere else in the Caribbean.

If they can't, they can volunteer their extra time to help Venezuela's poor.

[sofa king]

59. I golfed at the Macuto public course.

Macuto is on the other side of the mile-high mountain range atop which Caracas rests. It has a public course which I was told at the time (the 1980s) was the only course open to the public in the area, so that's where Caracas residents got their golf in--the few who could afford it. Seve Ballesteros was supposedly a benefactor.

It was a neat course, because it was built on the terraced sides of the mountain, and it only had eight holes, with the course ingeniously designed so that some of the same holes could be approached from different tees and even different directions to add up to eighteen. The grounds were kept better than anywhere else I've ever been, including Hilton Head, South Carolina. I asked about the groundskeepers and was told they were the best gardeners in the country, selected by merit from years' long waiting lists. The guy who told me that also said that most of the keepers refused to work at the private clubs even though they paid better, for political reasons. So the Macuto course may well have been nicer (if much smaller) than the private clubs.

I only had enough golf balls to make it through eight holes, and I had to borrow one from someone else to do that. Shortly thereafter, I retired from the sport at the peak of my game.

[Judi Lynn]

67. Wonderful post, sofa king! We never would have heard any of this

otherwise. Extremely interesting.

Thanks so much.

[sofa king]

86. You're very welcome.

If you want the rest of the travelogue, here it is. I didn't get to spend much time in Macuto and Caracas. I was only a teen-ager, but I was extremely impressed by the place and the people, especially the strident yet restrained civil disobedience which was being practiced by virtually everyone I met there.

I was on a very unusual sort of tour, and our guide went out of his way to make the corruption and unfairness of the ruling oligarchy an integral part of the tour. Thus, when the tourists wanted to see the nice homes in Caracas (there are a few), he made sure to show us the multi-million dollar home of the Chief of Police, and he pointed out that the man's legal salary was barely $40,000 a year!

I was more interested in how everyone else in the city lived, and he happily explained how entire neighborhoods would team up to illicitly electrify their homes, tap into the government water supply for their own plumbing, and collectively defy their landlords by not paying rent one month, then using the pooled funds to buy a single car or truck to drive everyone to work each day. The city was filled with crowded flatbed trucks of men, riding off to their various destinations.

Caracas is the birthplace of Simon Bolivar, and he's venerated in the same way that Washingtonians love George Washington, with one important difference: Venezuelans want to bring Bolivar's ideals of freedom, democracy and justice back. I don't think most Washingtonians yet realize they've lost theirs. I remember thinking at the time that couched in the legend and love of Bolivar is also a very obvious threat: keep messing with us and we'll deliver you another Simon Bolivar, and that won't be pretty.

At the time, one of the dominating features of the city was an enormous domed stadium, universally styled "The White Elephant of Caracas." They use that term exactly the same way we do--a white elephant is expensive and useless. Apparently, the stadium had been a pork and kickback favorite of the oligarchs, until someone or something halted construction of it after the roof was finished, but before it was complete. Soon afterwards, homeless people started moving in, and the city found it was more expensive to keep running people off than it was to just let them alone. At the time I was there, thousands of people lived in it, but the city was planning to knock the dome down, the running joke being that now that the place had a useful purpose, the rich folks didn't want it around anymore. I don't know if it's still there.

I don't pretend to know what Hugo Chavez is about or what his motives really are, but I know this for certain: prior to his arrival the people of Venezuela were served up a terribly raw deal. The people were really pissed off about the government corruption and their own disenfranchisement, but they seemed very patient and determined to persevere without violence. George Bush's friends there should count themselves lucky that they've gotten off as lightly as they have, because if anyone had it coming to them, it was those a-holes. Whether Chavez turns out to be a saint or a sinner, we should be backing the people of Venezuela all the way--there is much we can learn from them.

[Judi Lynn]

87. Wonderful information from your post! Exceptionally interesting.

Who wouldn't LOVE to get a tour guide like the one you saw? (Probably not the Venezuelan opposition members!)
He opened a window directly into Venezuelan life.

Some of us have known about the plight of the poor after hearing about El Caracazo years after it happened. I don't believe a word was mentioned in our own press, EVER, about it. We've read that when the later impeached-for-corruption President Carlos Andres Perez hiked to price of gas out of the reach of the urban poor, they were suddenly without means to get to work, which drove them out into the street, where he had his military mow them down. How filthy can a President be?


The spirit you reveal of the urban poor sounds so healthy, so vigorous, so energetic, expansive, resourceful, and inclusive. It reinforces so well what we've seen of them in documentaries like "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised." Here's the link to the video for DU'ers who haven't seen it, yet:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5832390545689805144

The pooling of resources to procure transportation to work is so gratifying to hear. Amazing. Good for them.
They could have never done it without cooperation. It's not hard to see why the oligarchy has always worked to keep the poor from organizing. Any independence in their quarters can mean some loss of control or profit among the oligarchs.

They should have our support. Absolutely. I hope fate will work against _Bush's ability to deprive them of their elected President and the help his administration can continue to provide.

[sofa king]

91. Holy cow! I never heard about that!

How could I have missed that? I was in Venezuela in about late 1985, I think, a little more than three years before El Caracazo went down. So the people did finally erupt, and not too long after I was there. I sure can't blame them, after what I saw, but honestly, I never knew they actually did until just now.

Thanks very much for that information, sad as it is.

[Judi Lynn]

93. Once you start researching it, it will become a story you want to know

completely!

DU'er Minstrel Boy posted a link to an online video, "Venezuela Bolivariana:"
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=3117181384995669233&q=Hugo+Chavez

on this thread, one afternoon:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1779900

I started watching it, and it became so interesting, I started scribbling notes, to be able to remember what it revealed. This part was spoken by Venezuelans interviewed for the documentary, relating to El Caracazo, which happened BEFORE Hugo Chavez attempted the coup against Perez, and went to jail for his efforts. It concerns Perez's horrendous demands of the poor which couldn't have been much worse:

"He gave away sovereignty of the country with a so-called "financial package" in which the nation subjected its tax revenues to the conditions of "the package... agreed to halt social programs... agreed to the privatization of different industries, etc., and especially agreed to "liberalize prices"..."

"Gas and public transportation had gone up and people couldn't afford it."

"It was a movement that wasn't organized by any union nor by a party nor a government. It was made by the people."

"Bus fares up 200%..."

That's the first thing I thought of, reading your own comments and observations about your trip, and seeing what creative leaps were needed to get poor people to their jobs they HAD to have in order to live at all, under any circumstances!

I had to view this documentary in a couple of sittings, as it really does need close attention, being so interesting. I'm really glad DU'er Minstrel Boy shared it with us. One "small detail" comes up later in the film: one of the wonderful women who gave comments during the film was KILLED in the Caracazo only a few hours later after that clip was filmed. Very goddamned sad.

On edit:

The segment in which she appears starts around 11 minutes into the film. It is an intense bit of reality, recognizing what a mild, decent person she was, to know she was just mowed down by machine gun fire on order of oligarch Carlos Andres Perez, friend of the _Bushes, who continues to be an opposition celebrity from his homes in New York and Miami.

[sofa king]

92. Oops. Duplicate post.

[Rex]

61. No wonder America hates Hugo Chavez

just look what he does to perfectly good golf courses! :sarcasm:

O'my fragile tiny mind!!!

[Bacchus39]

62. or maybe not??

http://english.eluniversal.com/2006/08/30/en_pol_art_30A772593.shtml

[Rex]

63. Well then that is obvious proof he is in with the Establishment!

Anyone who would defend a golf course from the poor! What about the other two?

[Bacchus39]

64. proof that some sanity remains in Ven. maybe

not that I have any great like for golf courses but just to take private property on a whim by decree is an example of totalitarianism. not that Chavez won't do something stupid again in the very near future.

[Rex]

65. What do you think about Eminent Domain in America?

Just curious. I find it interesting that it was the so called 'left' side of the court that ruled for it and not the 'right'.

Almost everyone I'm related to plays golf. It is like a religion in south Texas. I have relatives who own houses ON the golf course! To turn them into modern homes for the working class seems so, socialist to me.

[Bacchus39]

66. I think it is useful but within limits

the case in Connecticut was a joke. they took over peoples houses to turn it over to corporations that would generate more taxes therefore creating "public good". that is a stretch and that is wrong.

highways, transmission lines, rail lines and other activities that perform a necessary and useful public function is the proper use of eminent domain. I would even throw in condemning blighted property for redevelopment into this category.

but not condemning people's residences so you can turn around and give it to another private property owner to build and office park. and even in this case with the golf course, a functioning business enterprise to create public housing I don't believe is an appropriate use of eminent domain either. however, that is Venezuela so they have different laws for seizing private property.

[MikeyJones]

69. Bad move

There's plenty of land in Venezuela for building new housing. All this does is piss off much needed foreign investors from potentially investing their money there. Another sad recent move by Chavez.

[Judi Lynn]

70. That land would not be close to their jobs, schools, medical facilities

I think the Caracas Mayor knows what he's doing. After all, HE is the one who knows the entire picture, what the needs are, and how best to address them.

[MikeyJones]

72. It doesn't matter, the seizure of private property solves nothing nt

[Judi Lynn]

73. It solves a horrendous problem, concerning the safety, and well being

of tens of thousands of Venezuelan people crowded into completely hazardous conditions clinging to the sides of mountains.

If you had taken the time to study the material, you'd realize the country club is compensated for its property. It has NOT been mugged, it has NOT lost its investment.

Anality is never pretty, is it? Especially at the cost of other people's very lives.

2% of Venezuela's population owns over 60% of Venezuelan land. That's TWO PER CENT. Absolutely indefensible.

[MikeyJones]

113. I'll say it again, seizing property from the rich won't solve the problem

It'll only scare away foreign investors. They need to bulldoze the slums down and move the people into the countryside where they can actually form new cities and new businesses and lives instead of being relegated to the same old social order of super-wealthy against very poor.

They've played the game for 100 years and it's gotten them nowhere.

[jsamuel]

74. I am sure destroying the courses is not the only way to bring in affordabl

e housing. It is obviously the wrong thing to do as well.

[Ka hrnt]

81. I agree.

I don't like eminent domain. Nor do I like government attempts at controling markets ("part of an ambitious government effort to provide more homes amid an acute housing shortage that has driven up real estate prices"). What happens if this isn't enough? What gets seized next? Slippery slope. I'm also a little bit flummoxed by the mayor's math:

"Barreto told state television as many as 50,000 homes would be built on 363 acres spanning the three golf courses."

That works out to ~316 ft^2 per house. That's a square about 18' by 18', assuming no lawns whatsoever and no roads. I know it's cheap housing and that a house for poor people in third world countries is not what we consider a house here in the US, but that # would appear to have been picked because it sounded good... (Minor point, but hey. I hate politicians who lie with statistics...as all of them do. ;-) )

[Porcupine]

82. Nope. It's the most FUN way to build affordable housing.

F#*K the rich and their golf courses anyway.

[Ka hrnt]

83. Yikes.

Why is being rich such a sin on DU? Yeah, some are freeloading scumbags, but not all. And not all the people using these courses are necessary the evil "rich". Plenty of middle class folks play golf here in the US; I imagine many do in Venezuela do too. (I'm not hurting financially but I'm certainly not rich by any means and I freakin' love golf; just bought a nice set of clubs at {evil of course} Wal Mart for $180.)

[Solon]

90. In Venezuela, the Middle Class is small...

Venezuela is like 80% poor, 10% Rich, 10% Middle Class, approximately. In fact, the Rich owned most of the wealth in the country, in the form of land, oddly enough, they couldn't even produce the DEEDS for said land they claimed, decades ago, so the Federal Government seized the undeeded land and turned it over to poor farmer co-ops.

You have to understand, in Venezuela, its not unusual at these country clubs for the rich to discuss how best to shoot the help if they should rebel(this was actually discussed during the attempted coup the Rich in Venezuela engineered in 2002).

Not every country is like the United States, the Rich in Venezuela are almost always white, landed Nobles, for lack of a better word, and they have no qualms in supressing Democracy entirely if the unwashed masses won't vote their way, and this almost happened as well.

[LostinVA]

95. No, middle class folks don't play golf in Venezuela

They don't have muni courses and inexpensive privately-owned courses -- they are only for the wealthy.

And, people on DU don't begrudge wealthy people their money -- AS LONG AS people are not kept in poverty. So, wealthy Scandinavians are okay by me. As are wealthy Germans. I have problems with wealthy Americans who don't put their money where their morals are (go Warren Buffett! Go Oprah! Go Bill Gates!)... likewise, I have problems with wealthy Venezuelans whimpering about their dumb links while fellow citizens are living in something so horrible they can't even be called barrios.

And, buying golf clubs at Wal Mart just isn't feeding the RW machine, it's a bad move on your part. You could have gotten a much better set of clubs, cheaper, at some place like Play It Again Sports or in a classified ad. Tsk tsk tsk.

Have fun on DU.

[wordpix]

98. in the US, the price of land on E and W coasts prevents many towns/cities

from building affordable housing, so what do you suggest?
Building on brownfields is one option but they're costly to clean up and developers typically don't want to take that cost on, even if they can get the land cheap.

[Joanne98]

76. Gawd Bless Hugo Chavez. A man who knows how to hate them...

Taking their GOLF COURSES? OMG! That's HERESY! I love it.

[citizen snips]

77. I am a golfer.

and I hope they are not cleaning out all the golf courses in Venezuela. But after all it is not like I play at the high end country clubs so I would not mind if they cleaned out all the ritzy golf courses and build houses for the poor.

[Anakin Skywalker]

78. Would Like to See This Here, Especially With

the rise in population, more housing is needed. But the rich mofos are HOARDING up lands for their private, selfish use.

[drfresh]

84. I'd like to see population growth get under control

Either humans have to get it under control, or mother nature will with food shortages, starvation pollution etc. We have limited resources and if we could keep our damn numbers down..

[annabanana]

94. the Fundies in charge will not allow this kind of talk..... n/t

[Judi Lynn]

89. It's been discussed here (the U.S.), quietly, for years and years

by very serious, and financially comfortable people as a conscientious adjustment to urban needs.

[Eugene]

80. AP: Venezuela Against Seizing Golf Courses

Venezuela Against Seizing Golf Courses


Thursday August 31, 2006 3:01 AM

AP Photo CAR104

CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) - Venezuela's government on Wednesday
objected to an order from the mayor of Caracas calling for the
expropriation of the city's three main golf courses to build public
housing.

The mayor, Juan Bareto, on Tuesday ordered the "forced acquisition"
of the courses under eminent domain. Barreto has said the courses
would yield valuable land to build homes for the poor.

Vice President Jose Vicente Rangel said Hugo Chavez's government
"does not share the decision adopted by the mayor."

Rangel said the courts must rule on the seizures first.

-snip-

Full article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-6048735,00.html

[wordpix]

97. I predict we'll be taking golf courses for farmland if we keep building

out suburbia in this country and if the price of oil goes astronomical.

[laureloak]

100. So long tourism $$$$.

How many acres are we talking about? Why not tear down the slums and rebuild decent housing instead of ruining what's beautiful to make something slummy.

[Judi Lynn]

102. They are rebuilding housing in the barrios, which is pointed out in

an earlier post in this thread.

How many tourists go to Caracas to play at the PRIVATE COUNTRY CLUBS? How does that work?

Who told you the Mayor of Caracas is planning to build new slums?

[Judi Lynn]

108. Ah, ha ha ha ha. This IS a hot one. Update:

Caracas mayor to take golf course expropriation case to Venezuela's top court
The Associated Press

Published: August 31, 2006


CARACAS, Venezuela The mayor of Caracas said Thursday he will take his case for expropriating three exclusive golf courses for public housing projects to the Supreme Court.

The mayor, Juan Barreto, said in a statement published in the newspaper El Universal on Thursday that he will ask the nation's top court to protect his order for the "forced acquisition" of the courses.

On Wednesday, Vice President Jose Vicente Rangel said President Hugo Chavez's government objects to the expropriations and said courts must rule before action is taken.

Barreto said he will ask the court to consider whether the order violates constitutional guarantees — a possibility Rangel raised. The mayor denied, however, that the national government disapproved of his plans, saying Rangel simply expressed "observations and concerns."

Barreto said he shared the views of "our maximum and indisputable leader, President Chavez" regarding the sanctity of private property. But he said: "We're not going to lower our heads before the abuses being carried out," allegedly by privileged sectors of society living near the golf courses.

Barreto has argued that buying up the courses would yield valuable land to build more homes for the poor and middle classes amid an acute housing shortage that has driven up real estate prices.
(snip/...)

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/08/31/america/LA_GEN_Venezuela_Golf_Courses.php

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The few posters who have been laying this at the feet of Hugo Chavez have to take one giant step backwards. It's a specific urban goal of one of the FIVE Caracas area mayors.

Some of you should have paid attention when it was pointed out as being connected to the MAYOR, not the President, multiple times in this thread.

Way to go! Congratulations.

[Codeine]

109. So why does Hugo not support it?

All of the Chavistas on DU were quite enthusiastic for the idea, why isn't Chavez?

[Judi Lynn]

110. Had you taken time to read the article, you could have saved yourself

the time wasted in this post:

Barreto said he will ask the court to consider whether the order violates constitutional guarantees — a possibility Rangel raised.

It would appear to the untrained eye that the federal government suggested Barreto's looking into the legal aspects more deeply first.

[The2ndWheel]

112. So you'd be alright with not

answering the urgent needs of the many if it comes to that?