Air Force chief: Test weapons on testy U.S. mobs

[Thor_MN]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/09/12/usaf.weapons.ap/index.html

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Nonlethal weapons such as high-power microwave devices should be used on American citizens in crowd-control situations before being used on the battlefield, the Air Force secretary said Tuesday.

The object is basically public relations. Domestic use would make it easier to avoid questions from others about possible safety considerations, said Secretary Michael Wynne.

"If we're not willing to use it here against our fellow citizens, then we should not be willing to use it in a wartime situation," said Wynne. "(Because) if I hit somebody with a nonlethal weapon and they claim that it injured them in a way that was not intended, I think that I would be vilified in the world press."

uhhhh..... Holy Fuck.

[Demeter]

1. Yeah, That Would REALLY Spiff Up Public Relations

Besides taking out the GOP, we're going to have to build a new Air Force from the ground up. So many little jobs, so little time, such a desire to knock heads together....

[saigon68]

31. HERE'S THE LITTLE ASSWIPE

FROM HIS FUCKING WEBSITE


http://www.af.mil/bios/bio.asp?bioID=7919


Mr. Wynne graduated from the U.S. Military Academy and served in the Air Force for seven years, ending his career as a captain and assistant professor of astronautics at the U.S. Air Force Academy. He spent three years with Lockheed Martin selling the Space Systems Division to then Martin Marietta.

Prior to joining the Bush Administration, Mr. Wynne was involved in venture capital. He nurtured small technology companies through their startup phase as a member of the NextGenFund Executive Committee, and served in executive positions of two of those companies. In July 2001, Mr. Wynne was confirmed as Principal Deputy Under Secretary of Defense for Acquisition, Technology and Logistics, and in May 2003 he was appointed as acting Under Secretary of Defense for Acquisition, Technology and Logistics

[eccles12]

44. People had better get a grip on what these evil people are all about.

I can't believe that even Freepers would not go ape over this stuff.

[AX10]

2. IMPEACH MIke Wynne!

[lumberjack_jeff]

74. The problem isn't f'ing Mike Wynne...

It's not f'ing Rumsfeld.
It's not f'ing Gonzales.
It's not f'ing Rice.
It's not f'ing Chertoff.
It's not f'ing Brown.
It's not f'ing Cheney.
It's not f'ing Libby.
It's not f'ing Rove.

It's f'ing George Bush. He's the axis around which evil orbits. I want america to deal with the disease and not the symptoms. Wynne was a Bush appointee chosen exactly for this reason. He's a sick puppy who doubtless shared many frog-exploding childhood stories with *.

All blame should fall on Bush. The crown of sickness, injustice, tragedy, mismanagement, disaster, dishonesty, and plain ol' evil should rest on his shoulders.

:grr:

[fooj]

77. Right on!

I say HOLD THE TREASONOUS, RAT BASTARD ACCOUNTABLE! :grr:

[reprobate]

120. Actually IMO it IS Cheney. HE is the man behind the curtain.

HE is the power behind the throne.

It was Cheney's idea to build the "Unitary" president after Nixon had been rained in by congress. The warrant-less spying cam out of his office as did the Office of Special Project in the Pentagon that jinned up all the false intelligence they used to go to war.

I wouldn't underestimate Bush, but to do the same with Cheney would lead to the same place we are today.

[Tigress DEM]

130. Yeah it is. ALL of them including *ush.

Is there ANY one on that list you would feel comfortable turning your back on if they had a weapon (lethal or just plain pain inducing)?

It's not f'ing Rumsfeld.
It's not f'ing Gonzales.
It's not f'ing Rice.
It's not f'ing Chertoff.
It's not f'ing Brown.
It's not f'ing Cheney.
It's not f'ing Libby.
It's not f'ing Rove.

ONE person CAN'T CAUSE this much trouble in our country.
IT TAKES A WHOLE BUNCH OF SICK ASSHOLES to f'up a whole country.

I SAY "IMPEACH 'EM ALL"

[Kagemusha]

3. To put it real short and blunt

his idea is only sound if the non-lethal weapons aren't going to injure people. At all. Ever.

I wouldn't bet the farm on that. Seems he would.

[indepat]

6. Suggest they be used on Mike if he thinks this is such a good idea

[atreides1]

64. I've got a better idea

He can test them out on his family, to include his own children. I mean if he's willing to use American citizens as test subjects, then he should have no problem with using his own family first!!!

[plasticsundance]

106. As with the police forces

It should be tested on those people that will be charged with using them.

[Lisa]

34. people have already been seriously injured by non-lethal weapons

http://www.macleans.ca/culture/books/article.jsp?content=20051222_140516_2124

"The most seriously injured was teenager Ryan Berntt, who was shot in the head by police with a rubber bullet. He spent nearly a month in a coma and suffered permanent brain damage as a result of the shooting."


If these weapons are touted more as a military/security invention than for dispersing or subduing a crowd, I wonder if it will be that much harder to hold people accountable for their use/misuse (or malfunctioning)? A subtle shift in who's in charge, from civil authorities to the military who fund/deploy the weapons, could have significant legal repercussions (kind of like having soldiers policing the streets, in a non-disaster situation).

And then there are the responsibility issues. For example, there are a lot of cases now where supposedly ultra-accurate weapons systems do not seem to be performing as advertised, with tremendous "collateral damage" -- like in Lebanon, Afghanistan, and Iraq. It's as if the manufacturers are making these claims for "smart" weapons, so their products seem less objectionable and the military are more likely to use them ... but I do not think that they ever are made accountable for bogus reassurances. Not to let the military off the hook, but it seems it's a bit too easy to diffuse the blame, when the users and the manufacturers can claim afterwards that there are "reasonable levels of technical malfunctions" and walk away. (In the rubber bullet case mentioned above, if it had been a new bit of military technology being tried, what's to prevent the authorities from preventing any inquiry into the circumstances, as a federal and security matter?)

It's also possible that the expectation of "zero injuries" might result in people being more likely to use supposedly non-lethal weapons -- which could actually lead to more injuries than if less-violent approaches were employed.



http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/non-lethal.htm

"Non-Lethal weapons shall not be required to have a zero probability of producing fatalities or permanent injuries. However while complete avoidance of these effects is not guaranteed or expected, when properly employed, Non-Lethal weapons should significantly reduce them as compared with physically destroying the same target."

[struggle4progress]

59. Details of US microwave-weapon tests revealed (July 05)

22 July 2005
NewScientist.com news service
David Hambling

VOLUNTEERS taking part in tests of the Pentagon's "less-lethal" microwave weapon were banned from wearing glasses or contact lenses due to safety fears. The precautions raise concerns about how safe the Active Denial System (ADS) weapon would be if used in real crowd-control situations.

The ADS fires a 95-gigahertz microwave beam, which is supposed to heat skin and to cause pain but no physical damage (New Scientist, 27 October 2001, p 26). Little information about its effects has been released, but details of tests in 2003 and 2004 were revealed after Edward Hammond, director of the US Sunshine Project - an organisation campaigning against the use of biological and non-lethal weapons - requested them under the Freedom of Information Act ...

The experimenters banned glasses and contact lenses to prevent possible eye damage to the subjects, and in the second and third tests removed any metallic objects such as coins and keys to stop hot spots being created on the skin. They also checked the volunteers' clothes for certain seams, buttons and zips which might also cause hot spots ...

During the experiments, people playing rioters put up their hands when hit and were given a 15-second cooling-down period before being targeted again. One person suffered a burn in a previous test when the beam was accidentally used on the wrong power setting ...

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg18725095.600

[bamacrat]

67. So the people would have to be naked or their buttons, seams and keys ...

would burn them. Awesome.

[struggle4progress]

70. Don't forget to take out your contacts. And remember to move away ..

.. from the beam when your skin begins to feel uncomfortably hot or perhaps you'll be cooked like a chicken in a RadarRange ...

[AnneD]

108. I can see problems already...

test subjects removed glasses and contacts-that won't happen in a riot situation. I am sure that will concentrate the beam and cause permenante blindness. I notice a lot of older folks at demonstrations....older skin is more frail thus greater damage. Some folks have neuropathy, a decreased nerve sensitivity, due to chronic health conditions so burns are likely. Oh and by the way, this sounds like it works like a microwave and cooks from the inside. One person got burned from a setting that was too high. That sounds ominous to me. If it IS like a microwave....forget about any wound healing....cooked meat won't heal. This weapon should be internationally banned-like gases!

[keepCAblue]

116. What kind of people volunteer for such tests?

Where do they find such people willing to risk life and limb so the U.S. military can use them as weapons targets? I can't imagine anyone willing to do so except those who are perhaps desperate for a few extra dollars (the poor, the homeless, the disadvantaged); if this is the case, i.e., that the military is exploiting the poor in such a Nazi-like manner (reminiscent of the "experiments" carried out in concentration camps), then this is beyond deplorable.

[AnneD]

118. Let me see.....

:think: soldiers that were 'volunteered, folks that would sell blood for a few dollars, unemployed, college kids for money or credit, folks that didn't fully understand the implications, guys with death wishes,.....

[Tigress DEM]

131. Masochists.... with flesh burn fantasies.

[keepCAblue]

124. Palo Alto, CA tech firm contracted to design, build and TEST ADS

Hey, fellow northern Californians, we could be the FIRST to try out the neocons new Skin Frier toy:

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Denial_System)

Contracts

On October 4, 2004 the DOD published the following contract information:<4>

Communications and Power Industries (CPI), Palto Alto , Calif., is being awarded a $6,377,762 costs-reimbursement, cost-plus fixed-price contract. The contractor shall design, build, test, and delivery a two to 2.5 megawatt, high efficiency, continuous wave (CW) 95 gigahertz millimeter wave source system. The contractor shall perform extensive modeling, simulation, experiments, and testing to the maximum capabilities of their facilities (which shall no less than one megawatt peak RF output) that will ascertain the final CW capabilities of the source. The contractor also shall provide input for the requirements for the government’s test stand, which will serve as a full power facility in the future. At this time, $900,000 of the funds has been obliged. This work will be complete by January 2009. Negotiations were completed September 2004. The Air Force Research Laboratory, Kirtland Air Force Base, New Mexico, is the contracting activity (FA9451-04-C-0298).

[Buzz Clik]

4. How about we test them on clueless Air Force secretaries.

"This will sting a little, Michael, and your hair might start smoldering. Hopefully, your eyes won't explode."

[The Backlash Cometh]

That's one sick mother fucker.

If we're not willing to use it here against our fellow citizens, then we should not be willing to use it in a wartime situation," said Wynne.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

29. it is logical. as sick as it is.

you can tell he's thought it out pretty well actually.

of course, he's imagining a day war criminals are held responsible for their actions, which is almost kind of quaint and refreshing - and really ads a nice layer of fiction to the science.

I can't help but think he was taken out of context in this article in some way. On edit: I'm witholding judgment, let's put it that way.

[Casablanca]

138. No, it's illogical and sick

To accurately paraphrase his rationale: "We should use our new untested weapons against lawabiding American taxpayers who are exercising their right to protest BEFORE we use it against foreign aggressors on the battlefield." Where do you see logic or any kind of sense in that?

Even their use of term "non-lethal" is illogical. They think that as long as their weapon isn't using conventional bullets can be considered "non-lethal". Using their illogic, the fact that there have been people who have survived being shot with several bullets should earn guns the title "non-lethal weapon". All you have to do is use it correctly? Well duh, you can use handguns against people in non-lethal ways - it doesn't make the weapon non-lethal.

As I see it, with this microwave weapon, they're just exchanging conventional visible bullets for non-conventional invisible ones. It's just more proof that our military is being run by sociopaths with no regard for the lives or rights of American citizens, or for the use of honest language.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

146. well

it's logical because the only time you've objected to its use is when its brought up in the context of usage against your own.

This is why I'm witholding judgment till I see a transcript.

[Casablanca]

155. No, it's illogical with or without a transcript.

It's about as illogical as this statement:

"it's logical because the only time you've objected to its use is when its brought up in the context of usage against your own."

[SlavesandBulldozers]

158. thanks for your input

it didn't really contribute, but I appreciate it.

[smb]

161. Frankly....

...if the Air Force is dealing with REAL "foreign aggressors on the battlefield", it should KILL THEM. That's what the planes and guns are for, you twit!

[cascadiance]

5. Following in Sadam's footsteps?...

Do you think he had good "public relations" testing chemical weapons on his own people first before those in other countries?

Heck we already have a history of having tasers injuring severely/permanently and/or killing people. What more do we need?

[Purveyor]

7. Just "damn"... yet some people fear the 2nd Amendment! n/t

[cornermouse]

8. Uh, why wait (to villify)? Now looks like a good time to start the

vilification. I'd say any vilification about using the American people as guinea pigs for weapons should be considered well earned.

"(Because) if I hit somebody with a nonlethal weapon and they claim that it injured them in a way that was not intended, I think that I would be vilified in the world press."

[Onlooker]

9. The guy is nuts

How the hell did he ever become Air Force Secretary. He should be locked up.

[saigon68]

27. He is a Thug and a War Criminal ----- He needs the Frog March

Where do The Bush Criminals find these Eichmann Type Thugs and Hoodlums?

[SlavesandBulldozers]

35. do you think.

in any way. this could be taken out of context?

[Dhalgren]

104. Can you come up with any "context" where this might fit without

being the statement of a deranged fascists pig?

"If we're not willing to use it here against our fellow citizens, then we should not be willing to use it in a wartime situation," said Wynne. "(Because) if I hit somebody with a nonlethal weapon and they claim that it injured them in a way that was not intended, I think that I would be vilified in the world press."

To take that statement to its logical conclusion: "I can't use this 500 pound bomb on the battlefield unless I first use it on US citizens. Otherwise, foreign reporters would say bad things about me."

This is the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard. If a weapon is intended for the battlefield, why on earth would it be prudent to first use the weapon on your own civilian population? That is idiotic. It makes no difference how the weapon is designated - "non-lethal" or otherwise. A battlefield weapon must first be used against your own population? WTF? This is the kind of thinking that comes out of a fascist mindset - take a good look at your government...

[SlavesandBulldozers]

148. excellent response.

i can think of a few contexts, though. I'm waiting to see the full transcript. Completely witholding judgment. My jaw dropped when I saw the statement though. The headline seemed to suggest things he said that I never saw quoted.

[0rganism]

10. "non-lethal weapon" -- no such thing

ANY weapon worthy of the noun "weapon" is potentially lethal. Some are more lethal than others.

The accepted descriptive phrase the Secretary of the Air Force is avoiding is "less lethal."

[Casablanca]

142. "less lethal"

Less lethal than what? Guns are less lethal than depleted uranium. Daisy cutters are less lethal than 50 megaton nuclear bombs.

Another meaningless marketing phrase intended to repress reasoned thought and questions. The fact that the modern military feels the need to market its weaponry to the citizenry it purports to be protecting say a lot about them.

[Matariki]

11. well then, if the military brass LIKES the idea

I think we can expect them to create a situation where they'll have an excuse to use it. The Draft perhaps?

[razors edge]

12. i can see his point,

but you never see them test this shit on anybody but progressives.

they can't use cs (tear gas) on an enemy by law, like that stops them, but just like the cia interrogators looking for insurance, these mongers are scared.

maybe its time to disband the standing army so they don't end up in jail.

it's for their own good, we can handle the occasional situation without them. for that matter when was the last time since WW2 we actually needed a standing armies services?

[fed-up]

13. they KNOW the masses are pissed off and won't take any more shit-this is

an out and out threat to ALL American citizens that want to practice free speech


this tells me they really do plan on stealing the election come November

[rooboy]

14. This is the kind of stuff the Waco conspiracy theorists talked about...

popular belief being that they kept the Branch Davidians under siege for 51 days in order to test various weapons systems.

(disclaimer: I am not a defender of Koresh or the Branch Davidians, but it is acknowledged in the FBI's report that the Feds decided early in the piece not to let anyone come out of the compound)

[tuvor]

15. If he's not willing to use it on himself, he should not be willing to use

it on others.

Hey, just following his brand of logic.

[Canuckistanian]

16. Save your effort - you're already vilified!

What an incredibly Mengelian thing to say.

No, wait, I take it back. Even Mengele didn't test on his own German citizens (citizens by HIS definition).

[Casablanca]

144. Don't take it back. You're right.

There were non-Jew Germans in Auschwitz that were subjected to his tests. Also, Mengele had a lot of practical rationalizations for what he was doing to German citizen. Mr. Wynne is expressing the exact same thinking as Josef Mengele.

[HuffleClaw]

17. MEEP

what a complete loon. "...if I hit somebody with a nonlethal weapon and they claim that it injured them in a way that was not intended, I think that I would be vilified in the world press."

'that was not intended' ?! testing it on citizens is going to 'make it easier to avoid questions from others about possible safety considerations' ???

i think this poor schmo has been drinking the mercury from thermometers.

[Rex]

18. But secretary, America doesn't give a fuck about the world press!

What rock has this guy been living under? Must feed off of Rummy's leftovers. :puke:

[leesa]

60. But if it's done in Amerika NO ONE will hear about it, because we have

no free press.

[hvn_nbr_2]

19. Did someone aim a high-power microwave device at that guy's brain? nt

[lumpy]

20. Mr.Wynne should be the first volunteer

to take a hit from this new microwave weapon.

[Shakespeare]

21. Fuck.

Just.....fuck. :-(

[MaineDem]

22. And this guy should keep his job why...?

Testy US mobs = anti-Bush gatherings.

Scary as shit!

[eggbeater]

23. sorry for laughing but

It seems that the more this country fights what we dont want to be, the more we become it.

didnt saddam get blasted for testing weapons on his own citizens?

and now the U.S thinks this might be a good idea?

WTF is going on here? Are they going to try and train us like Pavlos dogs?

Man this country is getting more screwed by the hour.

[newspeak]

113. well, what some people don't realize in the Pavlov experiment

is that without continually initiating the trigger-the dogs quit responding. So, when time passed after the experiment, the dogs didn't automatically respond. So, what can neutralize a microwave? Can it be neutralized?

[eggbeater]

141. It can be absorbed

or reflected.
possibilities in retaliation lie in the answer.

[Malikshah]

24. Solution: Test weapons on Michael Wynne. This guy dishonors

the uniform and should be taken out and put into the deepest darkest pit so he can think about it.

[Auntie Bush]

75. "so he can think about it"? No, so we can fill it withs snakes.

You know...people are more comfortable in the company of their own kind.

[Lisa]

25. And if it goes wrong, it won't be an "international incident"! See?

It can be an "internal US matter", and any other concerned countries or international NGOs like Amnesty International will be told to butt out. And any Americans who complain must be traitors, and can be dealt with accordingly!

Works for other countries, like China and Saudi Arabia!

[gaspee]

26. No see

I read that a little less sinisterly (is that even a word?)

I read that to say that we shouldn't be using things like whte phosperous and other weapons of that type on foreign populations.

Hmm, how else to say it... We shouldn't be using weapons like that on people that aren't Americans if we're not willing to use them on Americans becasue non-Americans are NOT sub-humans.

Funny that I read it that way because I'm usually one to take things in the worst way possiblly.

[Thor_MN]

43. He's using the same brain dead "pre-emptive" logic that the neo-cons spout

that is, If we use them on us (those nasty librul progressives who dissent) before we use them on them (everyone else), no one can complain.

Which leaves unanswered, just like the logic for Iraq: What if you are wrong, dumbass? What if your nonlethal weapon kills or maims someone?

Secretary Wynne, you can't beta test your weapons on civilians - period.

[Pachamama]

28. OMFG!

Holy Fuck is right....

This is scary....they aren't even hiding their complete disregard for humans anymore....

If people don't realize how scary things are getting, we are really in big trouble...

:scared:

[Thor_MN]

30. Secretary Wynne should be relieved of duty. Immediately.

As in get the fuck out, kiss your pension goodbye, why are you still breathing my air, if I don't see your ass disappearing in the next second, they will be scraping your remains out of a bilge.

edit: I can't spell today.

[HereSince1628]

32. But only after they were tested on disabled children, right?

:sarcasm:

[IChing]

36. Or the handicapped or the mentally ill or the jews, homos .....WTF?

Is this country coming to? Torture is just an alternative interrogation method?

[IChing]

33. That is a threat plain and simple

Get it? They are.......NAZIS

[davekriss]

37. What an excellent idea

However I'd like to modify it a bit. I think Michael Wynne should volunteer his family as a patriotic act to improve public relations. If he'd do that, then I'd line up behind his idea.

[immoderate]

38. Legacy of Curtis LeMay

LeMay, a cold war AF general requested that a nuclear weapon be developed that was powerful enough to wipe out the Soviet Union with one bomb.(!) Ignorance and lunacy are not a barrier to advancement in the military.

--IMM

[lpbk2713]

93. Gen Jack D Ripper would be proud.

Keep those commies away from my essence.

[pnwmom]

39. "In crowd control situations." Oh yeah, we should be treating American

citizens in a rowdy crowd just as we would the enemies in a foreign battlefield.

What is happening to this country?

[SlavesandBulldozers]

40. is this a quote?

Nonlethal weapons such as high-power microwave devices should be used on American citizens in crowd-control situations before being used on the battlefield, the Air Force secretary said Tuesday."

The words "crowds" and "mobs" that dominates the headline and subject matter is not in quotations.

This is: "If we're not willing to use it here against our fellow citizens, then we should not be willing to use it in a wartime situation,"

Which isn't to say that he wants to use them on "mobs" and "crowds". Where is the full text?

[stillcool]

46. kpete has the article here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2121944

and here's the link to the article...

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/us/AP-Air-Force-Weapons.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

Defense Department: http://www.defenselink.mil

[SlavesandBulldozers]

53. thx. n/t

[truthisfreedom]

41. the only crowds that gather these days are members of the Democratic Party

and he knows this.

[Hotler]

42. Tinfoil hat time!! Check this out....

Something is coming down. I'm a draftsman working on parts for an urban training complex at Ft. carson in Colorado that is a replica of a small U.S. town. not mideastern, or european. It has a church, hospital, hotel, gas station, firehouse, residences, etc. It's like a big SWAT training ground. This along with the refurbishing of internment camps and the statement by Wynne leads me to think that the neocons won't go quietly into the night if they lose in 2008. Or if the bird flu comes there will be a take over.

[sofa king]

54. If you like that...

You'll be happy to know that they're already practicing.

[Megahurtz]

134. Shit!

:wow::scared:

[Solly Mack]

45. Someone needs to retire - to a nice comfy padded cell.

Wow..now who am I supposed to fear again?

Sheesh

[tk2kewl]

47. Why not try it out on Congress and the White House first

It's nonleathal and it was their idea anyway

[leftchick]

48. uhhh holy double fuck!

this guy is a RW War Profiteer NUTJOB! Much like rummy...

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-08-17-wynne-nomination-scrutiny_x.htm

[Cobalt Violet]

49. Wouldn't this be dangerous for pace makers?

I mean people with pace makers? Just wondering.

[eggbeater]

50. well, they are sick anyway

survival of the fittest you know.

the big question is, why is our government run by a team of blathering idiots.

I hope this does not reflect completely on the American Public.

Wait a minute, he said he wanted to use it on rowdy crowds? Maybe he means congress?

[baldguy]

51. Those "free speech zone" corrals suddenly become awfully convenient.

[VegasWolf]

52. "testy" US mobs would be liberals? nt

[UpInArms]

55. I would be willing to use this weapon on Secretary Michael Wynne

and it could be seen on public television - with Michael Wynne stating that he was a willing guinea pig for any and all weapons that were to be used on any battlefield.

What a freakin' asswipe.

I do so hope that he goes and kills himself with every bullet in his pocket.

[NoodleyAppendage]

56. Let's use it on Michael Wynne's pregnant wife or daughter.

If it's so safe, then he shouldn't have a problem with using his unborn child or daughter as test cases.

Fucker.

J

[LynnTheDem]

57. Killing Americans softly

Although I'm fine with Americans first being treated the way America treats others; then Americans would know dman well why "they hate us".

According to the Marine Times, the VMADS -- called the "people zapper" -- may be capable of inflicting far more than brief discomfort when not used as directed; that is, for no more than three seconds.

"The amount of time the weapon must be trained on an individual to cause permanent damage or death is classified." (In other words, it only takes one 18-year-old recruit with a sick curiosity or a slow watch to turn the thing deadly.)

In 1995, in fact, a military spokesman qualified the concept of "non-lethal" weapons: "It's really less lethal ... because these weapons if improperly used could be lethal."

Marine Col George Fenton, likewise, is on record in the May 2000 National Defense Magazine saying the term "non-lethal ... does not mean that they can't kill or injure."
http://www.motherjones.com/commentary/columns/2001/03/newshole1.html

Although high-powered microwave weapons are designed to destroy the electronic equipment used by enemy command centers, their effect on humans in the vicinity is less clear.

The U.S. military says HPM weapons are non-lethal, but that doesn't mean free from harm. The U.S Marines Corp. is currently developing a microwave-based weapon that inflicts a brief, intense burning sensation on the target's skin similar to touching a hot light bulb. Mounted on Humvee, the weapon is designed for crowd dispersal. The temperature settings are variable, however, and can be set as high as 130 degrees F.

Given that temperature variability, it's possible that someone in the path of a HPM burst might be cooked like a meal readied by a microwave oven.

Source: Scientific American, February 18, 2003
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000CBC91-B6FD-1E51-A98A809EC5880105

What happens to all the people driving vehicles on busy streets when they're "knocked off their feet" during rush-hour by being hit with maximum unbearable pain just because they are within that radius; is it murder when they all crash and die?

Will the US government offer tips on how to deal with and explain to children who are caught within the radius, for example playing on the swings in the playground, when they are suddenly hit with extreme maximum pain out of nowhere? Will they offer suggestions as to how we convince our traumatized and terrorized kids they can safely go outdoors again? Will the US govt pay for the years of counseling for kids traumatized, terrorized, and neurotic, living in fear 24/7 that the pain may suddenly hit them again?

Will pregnant mothers who are within the radius experience such maximum pain that they spontaneously abort be charged with murder as "late-term abortion"?

How about the ill, the elderly, the handi-capped and the infirm; when they are "knocked off their feet" by the maximum pain and fall and break open their heads; will the US govt pay for all funeral arrangements, or if they survive, for all medical and future care treatments?

What happens to those who happen to be walking next to busy streets and are "knocked off their feet" into traffic and run over?

How about high-rise window washers and construction workers? Or crane operators who may happen to be lifting tons-heavy objects when they're hit with this maximum pain & lose control of their cranes; will the US govt pay for all persons & property killed/damaged by being crushed?

What about infants and toddlers who aren't able to "flee" from the pain and are "cooked like a microwave meal"?

And this of course is assuming the WMT operator has a very accurate watch, knows EXACTLY the number of seconds before the "maximum pain" becomes death, isn't distracted for even 1 second, and isn't overly curious and/or a psychopath who wants to see what happens if the gun goes on for just another few seconds longer...

But sure...do it to Americans first, so America realizes what's done to others in our names.

[mod mom]

109. Thank you for posting this. This story is up at Huff Po now, so I added

the Sci Am article w link (although I kept getting errors and it ended up getting posted 3 times). I hope you don't mind-wanted more people to be aware of just what our govmt is capable of. Also forwarded it to KO.

These are some sick thugs that would use something as evil as this on anyone/anything.

[keepCAblue]

121. Except they'll be using it on the WRONG Americans...

...those participating in anti-war protests or assembling against our present dictatorship. That is tantamount to "preaching to the choir." The ones that are most in need of learning from this are the ones least likely to be caught in an HPM burst: rethugs, fundies, sheeple, kool-aid drinkers, anti-choicers, etc.

[leesa]

58. Whereas, OUR press is totaslly controlled and not a peep would be heard

Right, you sick MOFO?

[jimshoes]

61. Who are the real terrorists here

and what the fuck country are we living in? Jeezus Christ!

[IndianaGreen]

62. Once torture is redefined as "other procedures", the rest comes easy

Frying a disobedient population seems par for the course for this regime.

[lumberjack_jeff]

72. Defining deviancy down. n/t

[Selteri]

63. He needs to get in line ith Rummy to resign, NOW! NT

[alfredo]

65. We have to use this. Demand Santorum, Allen and other Reps

to denounce that creep. If they won't, they support testing military weapons on US citizens. We refuse to be their guinea pigs.

[rocktivity]

69. And how much you want to bet that the US citzens WON'T be Bush supporters?

Is this some kind of subtle warning to us not to GET "testy"? And can those who get arrested look forward to be the subject of latest trends in torture--I mean "environmental manipulation"?

:mad:
rocknation

[alfredo]

73. the public needs to know this. We need to know their

attitude toward us. They need to know just how low their opinion of us is.

[bamacrat]

66. Somebody needs to rethink this guys mental competence.

"Soldier" like this is why we have Abu Graib, and secret prisons and God knows what else. We ought to test the microwave beams on this fucker first, just for suggesting it.

[rocktivity]

68. How nice of CNN to give The Onion a page on their web site!

:rofl:
rocknation

[lumberjack_jeff]

71. ... and the world press, they're the ones we have to worry about.

The domestic press, not so much. We've got those six people suitably blackmailed.

[Az_lefty]

76. The new AF taliban wants to test weapons on US citizens???

I'm sure W will have a little orgasm over this.

[Heidi]

78. Kick.

:kick:

[rodeodance]

79. Air Force chief: Test weapons on testy U.S. mobs

this is beyond the pale (and NO< not an Onion piece).


http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/09/12/usaf.weapons.ap/index.html


Air Force chief: Test weapons on testy U.S. mobs

POSTED: 7:56 p.m. EDT, September 12, 2006


WASHINGTON (AP) -- Nonlethal weapons such as high-power microwave devices should be used on American citizens in crowd-control situations before being used on the battlefield, the Air Force secretary said Tuesday.

The object is basically public relations. Domestic use would make it easier to avoid questions from others about possible safety considerations, said Secretary Michael Wynne.

"If we're not willing to use it here against our fellow citizens, then we should not be willing to use it in a wartime situation," said Wynne. "(Because) if I hit somebody with a nonlethal weapon and they claim that it injured them in a way that was not intended, I think that I would be vilified in the world press."

The Air Force has paid for research into nonlethal weapons, but he said the service is unlikely to spend more money on development until injury problems are reviewed by medical experts and resolved...........

[Turbineguy]

80. Gee, I sure wish we

had one of those doomsday machines!

[NYC]

81. Since when are our fellow citizens wartime enemies?

..."If we're not willing to use it here against our fellow citizens, then we should not be willing to use it in a wartime situation," said Wynne...

Good thing Wynne wasn't around before the 2 atomic bombs dropped on Japan. He would have obliterated his "fellow citizens" first.

[hogwyld]

114. Not all U.S. citizens...

ONly liberal citizens not in lockstep with king W

[Niche]

82. WTF??

[praeclarus]

83. this is a joke, right? ....

"if I hit somebody with a nonlethal weapon and they claim that
it injured them in a way that was not intended, I think that I
would be vilified in the world press."

Therefore I will hit a US citizen first and if it injures
them in a way that was not intended and they try to open
their mouth about it, we'll just call them a terrorist appeaser
and send them to Gitmo.

[Megahurtz]

137. Yep, and all in secret too. n/t

[Kagemusha]

84. Lots of dupes for this issue

FYI.

[BattyDem]

85. This man has no business being the Secretary of the Air Force.

This man has no business even wearing the uniform! He is advocating the use of a potentially lethal weapon on innocent Americans simply because they may have gotten a bit rowdy! :wtf:

He took an oath to uphold the Constitution of the United States and nowhere in the Constitution does it say that innocent civilians can be used as guinea pigs for weapons testing. He should be relieved of duty IMMEDIATELY! :grr:

[Tom Joad]

86. Jerry Brown would want to do that.

Look what Mayor Brown did to this woman (Brown immediately praised police action after this protest).
They used "less than lethal weapons" against these nonviolent protesters (never was any violence used at this protest)

Looks like Jerry will be California's next Attorney General.

[keepCAblue]

149. Link please. eom

[DeSwiss]

87. Oh, right...

"(Because) if I hit somebody with a nonlethal weapon and they claim that it injured them in a way that was not intended, I think that I would be vilified in the world press."

And of course you WOULDN'T be vilified in the US press since they're your lapdogs. This sounds about right for these Neanderthals. Damn, where the hell do they FIND these people!?!?!?!?

[0007]

88. This sounds about par for the assholes in charge.

[zreosumgame]

89. I thought they screened for psycolgical problems?

guess not...

[rpannier]

90. I might be in favor of his idea with some alterations

We test them on michael wynne. If they don't kill or seriously maim him then they're ok.

[struggle4progress]

91. Testy U.S. mobs test weapons on Air Force chief

[NeoConsSuck]

92. testy U.S. mobs = 'anti-war protestors'

[screembloodymurder]

94. Why not use volunteers?

Preferably military officers who enable the Bush doctrine.

[Efilroft Sul]

95. MSNBC version of the article brought to Keith Olbermann's attention.

Here's hoping he looks into this and makes Wynne look like the nut we see him to be.

[MrModerate]

96. Air Force Chief: "Test Nonlethal Weapons on US Citizens"

Does this sound like a good idea to you?:

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Nonlethal weapons such as high-power microwave devices should be used on American citizens in crowd-control situations before being used on the battlefield, the Air Force secretary said Tuesday.

The object is basically public relations. Domestic use would make it easier to avoid questions from others about possible safety considerations, said Secretary Michael Wynne.

"If we're not willing to use it here against our fellow citizens, then we should not be willing to use it in a wartime situation," said Wynne. "(Because) if I hit somebody with a nonlethal weapon and they claim that it injured them in a way that was not intended, I think that I would be vilified in the world press."

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/09/12/usaf.weapons.ap/index.html

MY PARANOIA ALARM IS RINGING LOUDLY!!!

[Freedom_from_Chains]

97. Seems to me this was being bantered around about a year ago.

[hobbit709]

98. Let's test it on the generals

and congresscritters first. Make them the guinea pigs and see how well they like this idea then.

[C_U_L8R]

99. This jerk needs to be canned

without hesitation

[rfranklin]

100. This is insane police state thinking!

No, you asshole, you do not use weapons like these on your citizens unless you are a repressive regime that cannot hold power without using force. And, by the way, when in recent history has there been a crown-control situation that required such force?

This guy needs to be drummed out of government immediately. (Though it strikes me that the White House gave him orders to introduce the idea and they are itching to zap a "free speech zone" at the very next opportunity.

[rodeodance]

101. Air Force chief: Test weapons on testy U.S. mobs (Tues. headline as

posted on DU.

Tue Sep-12-06 10:10 PM
Original message
Air Force chief: Test weapons on testy U.S. mobs
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/09/12/usaf.weapons.ap/index....

Ok, the government wants to test microwave crowd control on F**** AMERICANS! This is the first time in a long time I have been truly frightened.

It's a downward spiral with these f*** morons in D.C.
................

POSTED: 7:56 p.m. EDT, September 12, 2006

[Occulus]

122. It's been PULLED.

Page not found.

They do NOT want this info getting into the minds of the public. I bet other links about this are being pulled as well.

edit: the link in the OP still works.

[Dogmudgeon]

102. WTF?

Microwave energy, indiscriminately applied, can hurt your brain. Do a Google search on "Allen H. Frey" and learn more.

Or just click here: Allen H. Frey links from Google.

Note: A number of "tinfoil hatters" invoke Frey on their web pages. It should be easy for a seasoned link-hunter to avoid them. Frey's work is sound, and he is a well-respected scientist.

--p!

[a la izquierda]

103. you gotta be f*cking kidding!

i'm not your guinea pig, you bastard! test that shit on the bush administration and their families.

[Julius Civitatus]

105. AMERICAN Dissenters and demonstrators as GUINEA PIGS

This guy needs to step down immediately.

This guy doesn't need to be anywhere near a position of command.

[Javaman]

107. Nope, no fascism here, move along or I'll use my ray gun on you. nt.

[noonwitch]

110. Try it on rioting prisoners, then

Not on civilians on the street. I get the feeling they would be used by whoever was in power at any given time against vocal opposition from any side.

[Blue_Tires]

111. Fascist much?

wow

[NVMojo]

112. Where's V when we need him??

[Az_lefty]

115. self delete

[WePurrsevere]

117. ! ! ! ! ! Kick n/t

[rosesaylavee]

119. What can be done with this guy?

I am writing my senators asap over this. This can not stand.

[KansDem]

123. From "Operation Northwoods" to this...

Over 40 years of top military brass proposing to terrorize Americans for military/corporate gain. I beginning to feel a little uneasy about the military industrial complex...:scared:

[anitar1]

125. This should put him in KO's worst person category. n/t

[2008]

126. They hate us for our freedoms

When I was growing up and being "educated" in a fundamentalist Christian school, my conservative, Republican teachers warned us of this.

They predicted that the growing idiocy of a television-numbed generation would someday produce leaders with absolutely no sense of decency, morality or patriotism.

They were right.

[Realityhack]

127. NON-leathal?!?

I thought we got over that and started calling them reduced lethality weapons.

I suppose a few (say high volume sound) are extremely unlikely to cause death but reduced lethality is still a better term. It conveys when they should be used (ie when without that option you would be forced to use lethal force).

--- on edit ---

IF these options where ONLY used as described above I think the policy of only using overseas what you are willing to use at home would be perfectly logical and even a good thing. If it doesn’t pass muster for domestic use you don’t use it overseas.

Now that’s given that it is ONLY used when appropriate and I seriously doubt that will happen. As such I withhold judgment against the person responsible for the policy as he could be saying it in good faith as a legitimate attempt to keep us from just experimenting wildly on the unseen overseas. If that’s the true aim more power to him. I don’t want to jump to conclusions.

OTOH I am no saying it isn’t being done only to intimidate decanters. Just that I don’t think there is proof on the face of this.

[keepCAblue]

128. Make your own homemade microwave weapons & save your tin foil!!!

http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/globalguerrillas/2004/05/journal_homemad.html

The technology needed to build these weapons is generally available and inexpensive (numerous experiments...with a converted microwave oven demonstrate this). Homemade directed energy weapons will eventually become the weapon of choice for global guerrillas intent on infrastructure destruction...

...The reason I "like" these weapons is that they are extremely simple to build (the parts, even for much higher power/frequency, needed to build these weapons are available globally), the expertise needed to build them is less than that needed to build a car bomb, their impact on systems can be much more severe than that of explosives, they are silent/stealthy, and they are cheap (mass production of these weapons would put their price at a level comparable to an AK-47 or RPG).

And for of us conspiracy theorists, we've now got another use for all our tin foil:

...it does not take very much in the way of shielding to block microwaves. A metal roof would do the trick like killing a mouse with a sledge hammer. Simply installing some aluminum foil in the attic would also do the trick at a fraction of the cost of the metal roof.

Paint with a high metal content (lead, aluminum, etc.) would adequately shield your entire home and you could even paint over the metallic paint with a more pleasant color if you desired.

Some pretty far out stuff at this site. Whoa.

[Wednesdays]

139. Aluminum suits of armor? Hmm...

What's the inside of a microwave oven made of? Prolly could build body armor out of that, too.

Anyway, good that Olbermann is getting wind of the story. Problem is, even if he and others manage to ridicule the idea and the thugs behind it, it'll just go underground...until it's ready to be tested for real. :scared:

[keepCAblue]

150. Line your underwear with aluminum foil

Gotta protect the family jewels!

[Tigress DEM]

129. Line up all the Republicans and test them first...

After all it's not like they will ever be in a wartime situation to get the experience of friendly fire with a non-lethal weapon... so..

And if those whinnypusses don't cry, then we'll talk about using it for crowd control or in a war.

Like the police go through training and have to be tazered.

[Megahurtz]

132. A large number of these

"Pro-War-Gung-Ho Shoot 'em All and Let God Sort 'em Out" soldiers and brainwashed Repuke Citizens
are literally going nuts. I seriously think that these people are dangerous.

You should hear them on this other non-Politically related board I visit.

One guy (a soldier writing from the Middle East, I think) goes so far talk like he thinks that everyone who gives an opposing view in the U.S. "better watch out because they will be watched and profiled and that Americans won't stand for it". He talks like anyone who thinks differently must be a terrorist.

Then he goes on to call Middle Easterners "Towel Heads, Camel Jockeys, and Carpet Riders". :puke:

I'm sure him and some of these highly brainwashed "Pro-Shoot 'Em Up" Repuke Citizens
would completly condone these devices for "crowd-control situations.

I am disgusted and embarrassed that I am an American anymore.:blush:

[lovuian]

133. Getting ready for the angry mobs

but thats not going to stop the people

[keepCAblue]

151. Beware of your local police, too. Not just the military

from wikipedia:

Deployment

The Pentagon has installed the non-lethal high-powered microwave weapon on a military vehicle. Project Sheriff was an effort to provide some 15 ADS-Equipped vehicles to troops in Iraq by the end of 2005. U.S. Marines and police are both working on portable versions.

[Danger Mouse]

135. Wow.

After all, we all know that this'll be used on those filthy Liberals. If we kill a few of them, who cares? We can write that off, easy.
Sometimes, I'm fucking ashamed to be a human being, let alone an American.

[MGD]

136. When we win back control, we can use it to keep the fundies in line

when they go into revolt mode. We should force them all to get transmitter chips implanted in their bodies too just for shits and giggles. Bwaaahahahahahaha!

[olddad56]

140. Spoken like a true Nazi.

[olddad56]

143. remember this song written 36 years ago. Still true

Let the asshole shoot me, it is time to take to the streest and let the Nazis use their weapons on the citizens of this country.

Any old war protesters from the 60s and 70s remember this protest song by Quicksilver Messenger Service?


You poisoned my sweet water.
You cut down my green trees.
The food you fed my children
Was the cause of their disease.

My world is slowly fallin' down
And the airs not good to breathe.
And those of us who care enough,
We have to do something.......

(Chorus)
Oh.......oh What you gonna do about me?
Oh.......oh What you gonna do about me?

Your newspapers,
They just put you on.
They never tell you
The whole story.

They just put your
Young ideas down.
I was wonderin' could this be the end
Of your pride and glory?

(Chorus)

I work in your factory.
I study in your schools.
I fill your penitentiaries.
And your military too!

And I feel the future trembling,
As the word is passed around.
"If you stand up for what you do believe,
Be prepared to be shot down."

(Chorus)

And I feel like a stranger
In the land where I was born
And I live like an outlaw.
An' I'm always on the run..........................

An Im always getting busted
And I got to take a stand........
I believe the revolution
Must be mighty close at hand.......................

(Chorus)

I smoke marijuana
But I cant get behind your wars.
And most of what I do believe
Is against most of your laws

I'm a fugitive from injustice
But I'm goin' to be free.
Cause your rules and regulations
They dont do the thing for me

(Chorus)

And I feel like a stranger
In the land where I was born
And I live just like an outlaw.
An' I'm always on the run.

[sweetheart]

145. hmmm.. note to self...

"Don't participate in violent mobs." .. well, that was easy.

[Megahurtz]

147. They will probably try this in Non-Violent protests.

Don't be surprized.

[Danger Mouse]

152. But they were throwing flowers!

Some of our men were allergic! We HAD to! Anyway, there were a few horrific deaths. So what? They were just lousy liberals anyway...

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

154. More like don't participate in non-violent protests either.

Don't think the police only step in on violent mobs. Before we invaded Iraq, I attended several peace marches in NYC. At the Feb 15th one, we left when we saw police in riot gear marching in and shoving people around. No one was being violent at all. The police still attacked. Later, we saw protesters who had turned their signs around and written on them, "I survived 63rd & 3rd." I'm pretty sure I got the street right. That's where the police decided to brutally attack the protesters.

At the emergency convergence in NYC when we bombed Baghdad, at one point the informal group I was in was surrounded by police, who threatened to arrest us. Some people were pushed around by the cops. Do you know what we were doing at that moment? We were walking on the sidewalk (if we were in the street, we would have been breaking the law, but since we were on the sidewalk no laws were being broken) and singing "All we are saying is give peace a chance."

Hardly a violent mob in either case, so as an activist and a patriotic, I am scared and outraged, as you should be.

[sweetheart]

156. I can't indict talk

There are morons that have no idea what human rights are, that believe the population are
cattle to be hearded, microwaved and eaten.

But as they've not done this, and rather the typical police jackboots are out there shaking
people down and doing what such thugs have done for centuries, its not suprising at all.

But lets scenario for a sec here... you are president in 2022, and when your carbon plan is
working in full swing, mexican-american solidarity produces a general strike across the car-centric
southwest and western states. At first, it looked like just another demonstration against high
gas prices, but quickly turned in to a total stoppage of the economy, and the protestors are
demanding that you step down as president and make meximerica an autonomous region in the USA
where spanish is the first language.

You are then put in to the position where you will ask your air force command how to establish
the federal authority, and either your government will be overthrown, or you will find a nonlethal
means of getting the slaves back to wanting their poverty. Like how tony blair's position is
today, where he can talk as much as he wants, and nobody gives a toss what he says, if your words
and your bully-pulpit thunder do not the job, then what?

They say FDR did all these great things, but rather a general strike loomed and a total end of
the constitutional project in a french revolution. FDR appeased the rebellion, but this time
round, it'll be up to the troops themselves not to fire on civilians, and we'll have to trust
that people when asked to murder, will rebel against the real terrorists.

Gosh, what if the mob does not take the offer, what if a new deal is not enough then what? Do
you fire those nonlethal weapons?

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

157. If the people are unhappy enough with the government to launch a

full-scale rebellion that will result in toppling it, then I personally believe they should do it. This country was founded on revolution and the future may bring a new time for revolutionaries to declare their independence and overthrow the government. And if the government is bad enough that the people are having a revolution, then that government probably doesn't care that it harms its citizens and has probably been already been harming them in other ways. It still does not mean that government is right.

But enough with your hypothetical situation, I still do not trust the U.S. government, under this administration, to not harm peaceful civilian dissidents, and I think it's naive to disagree. It's also not only the USAF that will have these weapons, which could indeed prove quite deadly. They are planning on making them available to police departments, who will probably be quashing peaceful protesters and not those planning a violent coup.

As for the Poodle's current situation of nobody caring what he says? Well, I do believe that has to do with the fact that he's the lapdog of the Bush administration, despite the wishes of the British citizens. Nobody cares what he has to say, because he decided that he wasn't going to care what they had to say and now they justifiably want him out.

[sweetheart]

159. If the soviet union's breakup is any appearance

Then the ossification of the industrial and economic structures was what ultimately brought
down the beast, and protest, not. The prison state is well entrenched, and given the perverse
trend towards more and more security, that the population demands to be put in to isolation cells
and guarded until the treasury is bankrupt. Protests won't end this charade, bankruptcy will.

In August 17, 1988, i was in Srinigar when General Zia Al Haq was assassinated. Within a day,
people had started to move in mobs, and the indian government shipped all westerners out and began
what has become a 20,000+ dead civil conflict. I had become very ill on the bad water, and was
bedridden, taken to the home of a friendly muslim man and his family. For the first week, i
could not get up, bad water can really put you in a fever near death. Then as i got better the
second week, they used me as a white face to get the indian martial law police to let us get around
between areas, as a tourist was not quite as locked down as the local people were. But those people
explained to me, in very stern voices, that the protocol was 3 gunshots, the first 2 in the air and
the third in to the crowd. When you hear a gunshot, run for cover if you don't want to be an accidental
casualty. But in that time, i saw the power of an angry mob, and the sort of thing they can do, and
the sort of lenghts governments all over the world are prepared to go to prevent a mob.

In russia, the chechen mobs never got to exist, bombed preemptively in to the stone age, so hmmm, we
have benchmarks on brutal, and if putin had used microwave weapons and not killed so many thousands,
we might be better off. I am uncomfortable with such weapons seeing any service against a civilian
population, please don't misinterpret. But i can't fault the airforce for having and developing
such systems in hopes that their future plans kill less and achieve more.

[DianaForRussFeingold]

153. Will This Do?

:tinfoilhat: Or Is This What The DuctTape Is For!

[hippiechick]

160. High Power microwaves ?

:tinfoilhat: Sorry, this just came to mind: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montauk_Project :scared: