BREAKING: School shooting, Lancaster, Pennsylvania

[charlie and algernon]

Hearing it over NPR, small private school in Lancaster, PA. they think 15 may be injured!

My God, I pray for all those involved. :cry:



Does anyone have any more details?

[bif]

1. My cousin's son goes to some private school therre.

[charlie and algernon]

5. they're not talking about it now

when they give the school's name again, I'll let you know

[LynneSin]

42. It's not a private school - it's a school specifically for the Amish kids

And the only reason I'm correcting this is when I see 'private', many folks automatically think of some high-end school filled with priviledged kids (although yes, it's not the norm).

The Amish are a society of people who reject most modern conviniences including our public education system. They instead teach their children within the community, like this 1-room schoolhouse.

[yellowcanine]

172. Well the Amish run their own schools so,,,,,Amish school, how's that?

[qanda]

2. I haven't heard anything about it

It's not on any of the cable stations. On Edit: Just saw it on MSNBC, it's at an Amish school.

[charlie and algernon]

4. i've been refreshing Yahoo news, nothing yet there either

[soothsayer]

3. Was some kind of 'trigger' word released? Why all these school

shootings?

[SheilaT]

31. They actually happen more often

than people realize, but until about ten years ago they never made the news except locally. And sometimes not even then. I know of an incident about thirteen years ago at a private school in my part of the world in which a 5th grader brought a gun to school, held a classmate hostage in a bathroom for an hour or so, and was persuaded go surrender peacefully. Police were not called until the incident was over, and so it was a tiny blip on the local news. Of course, the fact that no one was hurt or worse yet killed helped keep it quiet.

But you could probably do a google search and discover that every year there are shootings at schools. It's scary, and, no matter what you think of our current gun laws, guns are readily available and are often misused.

[jody]

6. Police Surround One-Room Amish Schoolhouse , link below

http://www.wgal.com/news/9981693/detail.html

[rodeodance]

10. says hospital has recieved 3 pediatric patients so far.

.Witnesses told Shannon that a man went into school and took hostages. Some people in the Amish community learned about the situation and contacted police. Witnesses told Shannon that this is tragedy not ever seen before in Lancaster County. Shannon also said that it appears that the hostage situation is over. It's not clear if the man is in custody. Shannon also stressed that her information came from witnesses. So far, there is no official word.

Witnesses also told Shannon that this is tragedy not ever seen before in Lancaster County.

Lancaster General Hospital has called in all available personnel. They have been told to be prepared for a large number of patients.

John Lines of Lancaster General Hospital said so far they have received three "pediatric" patients. He did not say what their injuries were.

[rodeodance]

12. told to be prepared for a large number of patients.

.....They have been told to be prepared for a large number of patients.

[qanda]

35. They said on MSNBC that over a dozen were shot

Doesn't sound good that there weren't more victims transported to the hospital. I pray they just have their facts wrong, as usual.

[sinkingfeeling]

7. Story's up on MSNBC.com....

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15105327/

[rodeodance]

14. Witnesses repoet here:

...Witnesses told Shannon that a man went into school and took hostages. Some people in the Amish community learned about the situation and contacted police. Witnesses told Shannon that this is tragedy not ever seen before in Lancaster County. Shannon also said that it appears that the hostage situation is over. It's not clear if the man is in custody. Shannon also stressed that her information came from witnesses. So far, there is no official word.

Witnesses also told Shannon that this is tragedy not ever seen before in Lancaster County.

[Desperadoe]

20. Update on WGAL, Lancaster

Shooter shot himself. 3 shooting victims, all girls, 6 to 16 in Lancaster General

10 gunshots. Situation is over.

[IndianaGreen]

21. Thanks for the info, Desperadoe

Tragic situation.

[Warpy]

38. All girls again?

Why, in this climate of religious wingnuttery, am I not surprised?

[Recursion]

102. Yeah, that creeps me out too n/t

[MarinCoUSA]

57. What the Hell ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !

n/t

[liberal N proud]

8. Amish school

Breaking - CNN
Multiple people have been shot at an Amish school in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, a state police spokesman says.

http://www.cnn.com/

[rodeodance]

9. and two in Wisconsin during last 3 weeks. What the H. is going on?!!

[proud2BlibKansan]

29. Two in Wsiconsin?

I had only heard about one. What is happening? This is so frightening.

[undeterred]

44. There was actually one that was prevented

from happening in Green Bay, because a student or two reported it. That and the principal who was killed on Friday.

http://www.thenorthwestern.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060918/OSH/60918012/1128/OSHnews

The only other incident I've heard of was in Colorado.

[rodeodance]

72. Green Bay ealiry Sept and small SE Wiscon last week

[katinmn]

32. Another one in Las Vegas today:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2540381&mesg_id=2540381

[Bandit]

52. What this country needs is more guns so this wouldn't happen

:shrug:

[proud2BlibKansan]

103. You forgot something

:sarcasm:

[Tesha]

11. Has anyone else found their "Weird Shit-o-Meter" pegged lately?

In the movie Men in Black, Agent J refers to his
"Weird Shit-o-Meter"; you know that gauge by which we
all measure just how weird the world seems to be of late.

What with (to name just a few items):

o People seeming to be completely and totally unable to
see how the run-up to the seemingly inevitable War with
Iran^TM looks exactly the same as the run-up to the
inevitable War with Iraq^TM,

o Republicans thinking that they still be loved when
their Jewish roots are exposed in the same month as
their general predilections for Confederate battle
flags and specific love of hangman's nooses as modern
office decor are exposed,

o Amish (Amish!) schools getting shot up,

I'm finding that, lately, my "Weird Shit-o-Meter" is
permanently pegged on the "Way Too Wierd for Me!" end
of the dial.

Tesha

[Coyul]

17. Have to agree

the weird-shit-o-meter is in the red zone, and climbing fast!

Coyul

[LiberalEsto]

43. Global warming?

I wonder if it's having unknown effects on human brains.

[Tesha]

53. More likely, a conflict between what our reptilian brains are...

More likely, a conflict between what our reptilian brains are
telling us, what our higher, mammalian brains are telling us,
and what our highest, (allegedly-)sapient brains are telling us.

Complete, total, and constant cognitive dischord = Pegged meter.

Tesha

[Bucky]

71. Mass hysteria? Nah, but there's a lot beneath the surface of social calm

Many people live in turmoil. When the world goes crazy, some of hte people in psychic turmoil hit their personal tipping point. The idea of shooting up a school gets planted in some sick mind by the news of other school shootings. If the world is out of balance, some of the pieces start falling out of the puzzle. It's sick and we need to work to return sanity and morality to the center. We can start by prosecuting all wrong doers. All wrong doers.

[allisonthegreat]

262. my meter blew up...didn't get that weird. n/t

[IndianaGreen]

13. Odds are the shooter is non-Amish

I can't imagine what is happening with this shooting, and the ongoing situation in Las Vegas. Are these random incidents, or as one DUer suggested on this thread, was a "word" given?

[proud2BlibKansan]

27. What's going on in Vegas?

[IndianaGreen]

34. Someone came to a school with an automatic weapon

NVMojo has a thread about it in LBN. This story was on TV before they broke with the Amish school shooting.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2540381

[Dammit Ann]

28. it all does seem a tad odd.

and freakishly well-timed to monopolize the MSM.


THE DAMMIT CHRONICLES

[LynneSin]

45. That's the impression I'm getting

I mean, the Amish are probably some of the least violent people in society and reject most modern conviences. These kids were hyped up on violence and processed foods - I'm really thinking it was an outsider, even perhaps someone who had left the Amish and moved on to a mainstream life.

[IndianaGreen]

15. Suspect in custody

according to CNN

[Desperadoe]

16. Shooter is dead. Shot by police

Situation is over,

[anotherdrew]

60. so we'll never get to even ask him why? WTF, I want these animals live

for questioning.

[sybylla]

154. Most likely a hate crime

I live in the middle of an Amish community in Wisconsin and the things that happen to these people out of pure hate make me sick. In the 16 years that I've lived here I've seen:

+Buggies run off the road, people injured and killed
+Amish businesses burgled and set on fire
+Young Amish girls raped
+Amish Buggies stopped at gun-point and robbed.

This isn't to say it's an every month occurence, but the fact that these things happen at all is just plain disturbing. And these are just the crimes that get reported. These people live separately and some sects generally avoid using public services like police.

[entanglement]

161. Why are humans so hateful and cruel?

It's very sad

:(

[anotherdrew]

249. I mostly blame poor diet and rotten culture

we're way too atomized in this country and the food is really driving us nuts and killing us. Oh, and then there's all the chemicals, hormone disruptors, etc. and the endless cavalcade of murderous violence we 'entertain' ourselves with. No one thing is enough, but taken together it adds up to too many rats going ape-shit.

[bling bling]

255. Yeah. We are a long ways away from our natural roots.

Our current lifestyles are alien to what our bodies and brains are programmed for. We have become a very angry, self-centered nation of individuals. Perhaps we have always been self-centered, but I don't think we were always so darn angry. Unstable blood sugar may be part of the problem.

[TechBear_Seattle]

18. Haven't several of the recent shootings been from outsiders?

Not students, but adults from outside the school?

Could these be yet another string of amazingly serendipitous (pardon) news events for the Junta?

[IndianaGreen]

19. Former student in Wisconsin, a drifter in Colorado

Media has yet to identify the suspect in Las Vegas that came to a school with an automatic weapon.

[rodeodance]

75. umm.. not sure about the WI one as I thought he had just been disciplinced

----but that may have been the one in Colorado.

[eek]

25. Schools in las Vegas on lockdown

Two Las Vegas schools locked down on gun report
Mon Oct 2, 2006 12:27pm ET
Email This Article | Print This Article | Reprints
<-> Text <+>

LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - Two Las Vegas area schools were locked down early on Monday morning as police searched for an armed youth, local television reported, in what would be the third gun incident at a U.S. school in a week.

Police and trained dogs had deployed around Mojave High and Elizondo Elementary schools in North Las Vegas, Nevada, KLAS-TV reported.


© Reuters 2006. All Rights Reserved.


http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=newsOne&storyID=2006-10-02T162647Z_01_N02359044_RTRUKOC_0_US-CRIME-SCHOOLS.xml&WTmodLoc=Home-C2-TopNews-newsOne-1

[lovuian]

106. Why are they killing the girls??? Arms in America

something to be proud of

[LostinVA]

39. Yes, and at least two have only targeted female students n/t

[Recursion]

99. I noticed that too

and it troubled me.

[LostinVA]

109. Agreed -- very troubling

[Recursion]

114. Blame "Sin City"?

"Carmen"? Come to think of it, the 75% or so of art that has eroticized female death for centuries?

[LostinVA]

116. That certainly doesn't help, eh?

[Recursion]

125. There are a lot of scared, creepy guys out there

... who think that if they hurt girls they'll feel strong and in control again. No idea what all the vectors of that message are but I know it's there.

[katinmn]

22. ANOTHER ONE! This is another sign of our society breaking

down. So much anger and mental illness that is not being treated. It is always the innocent that suffer.

Just last week a shooting and hostage situation in Colorado and a fatal shooting of a principal at a school in Wisconsin. Red Lake, Columbine, so many others.

:-(

[BluePatriot]

33. Agreed, so sad...

So much anger here, and so much inattention to it...

[smirkymonkey]

87. I agree with you - this is a sign of society breaking down, there

seems to be kind of a lawlessness in the air lately, where the old rules don't apply anymore and people are feeling deeeply insecure.

I have noticed a lot more subway fights and people just going berserk on the streets lately - more so than usual. Even in "nice" upper middle class places - the other day I witnessed two women start to go at it in Whole Food in Columbus Circle because one "bumped" the other with her cart. It's not just men either - I am amazed at how many women I see flipping out as well.

[Megahurtz]

128. Makes Ya Wonder

if it doesn't have to do with our present the State of the Union?:shrug:

This Country has become very depressing (and opressed)
people struggling to get by, War and more War, kids growing up wondering about their own future.
No wonder people are flipping out! There's a lot to be insecure about.

Maybe a ray of hope for something would help in this day and age.
But with this horrible Administration, I just don't see it.

[ancient_nomad]

23. A number of people killed....

according to the AP from PA State Police Source. There are 3 victims being treated (all female) - 2 at Lancaster General Hospital, 1 at Penn State Hershey Medical Center. One is critical. Age range is 6 to 15 years.

[proud2BlibKansan]

24. here's the CNN story

NICKEL MINES, Pennsylvania (AP) -- A state police official said Monday "a number" of people were shot to death at an Amish school.

Police surrounded the one-room Amish schoolhouse in response to reports of multiple shooting victims, a television station reported.

WGAL-TV said the incident occurred in southeastern Lancaster County.

About three dozen Amish people were standing behind a police line, and at least two ambulances had left the scene, the station said. Television news helicopters showed a person being taken away on a stretcher to a waiting medical helicopter.

The Lancaster County 911 Web site reported that dozens of emergency units were dispatched to a "medical emergency" at 10:45 a.m. Monday.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/10/02/amish.shooting.ap/index.html

[lebkuchen]

26. pathetic

[rodeodance]

76. "a number" of people were shot to death at an Amish school.

[951-Riverside]

30. I pray for the shooter

In jesuses's name we pray :puke: *wipes mouth*

[shadowknows69]

68. But Jesus would have

I don't pretend to be that strong but technically that's the message isn't it?

[Briar]

130. Not technically

It is the message. Jesus would forgive. Most Christians would take revenge, as the gunman was doing.

[951-Riverside]

150. Would Jesus forgive the gunman?

[eggbeater]

163. The sooner the Christians take revenge

The sooner the shooter can meet Jesus in person for his forgivness.

[LynneSin]

36. It wasn't a private school - it was an Amish school

that's extremely freaky. Amish is a society found throughout the Northeast but predominantly in Lancaster County (That's Lancaster's claim to fame). These families reject most modern conviences including electricity and automobiles. I pass through that area going to my family's home in Harrisburg and it's not uncommon for me to pass 25-30 Amish buggies along the way. Most Amish kids go to their own schools run by the Amish in that area

[jseankil]

37. Thank god sexual content is censored from media but violence is not

It makes these school shootings much more numb to me.

[951-Riverside]

54. I wasn't aware that sexual content in the NEWS was censored

They talk about serial rapists, flashers, molesters, etc all the time ;)

[ChairmanAgnostic]

40. the AMISH! 5 dead. 2 schools out west in lockdown. that makes 8

in the last four weeks.

What the hell is happening? Have the morons in DC so affected the US citizens that even the kids have no more hope?

[katinmn]

49. In a word: Yes.

[Up2Late]

41. Maybe we have a "Manchurian Candidate" situation going on here?

...maybe KKKarl told his brainwashed operatives to "Play some card" so that the MSM "news" could be filled up with these shootings?!?:tinfoilhat:

BTW, They just locked down 2 schools in Las Vegas too!

[BluePatriot]

46. I don't know

but having "outsider drifters" come in to attack schools, seems an easy way to bring up the topic of targeting "off the grid/nutty" citizens as domestic terrorists legally...tinfoil perhaps...but I can see questionable laws getting passed in the wake of these incidents to "protect children"

[katinmn]

50. I don't think so, but I believe the shootings are a direct result of

bad policy that can be traced to the corrupt, uncaring Republicans in power.

[Megahurtz]

131. Exactly.

Think about it, with the way things are in this Country, what hope is there?
None unless you're wealthy or well enough-off.

[onenote]

135. get a grip

Do you realize how stupid folks sound trying to blame these shootings on the administration? Sadly, there is nothing unique about these shootings other than the amount of attention that they are getting. I would expect crazy talk from freepers (who probably blamed Columbine on Clinton, for all I know). But I wish I could expect better here.

Don't believe me about how frequently school shootings take place. http://www2.indystar.com/library/factfiles/crime/school_violence/school_shootings.html

[katinmn]

138. you don't think policies have anything to do with violence?

[onenote]

141. did Clinton's policies cause all the workplace and school shootings

in the 90s? I dont' think so. And I don't think you can generalize about the shootings that have taken place over the past couple of weeks. IMO,the only policies that have anything to do with this violence are our lax policies about guns.

[Megahurtz]

142. I guess you are much more financially well off

than some people, other wise you wouldn't be so ignorant.

Apparently your personal life is not affected by this Administration's policies,
but keep in mind that numerous other people's lives are.

Now, who needs to "Get a Grip"?:eyes:

[onenote]

146. Not me, apparently.

At least my posts are coherent.

I cite facts. You call me ignorant. Okee-dokee..

see ya...

on edit:

Educate us: exactly what level of financial insecurity causes one to become a school or workplace multiple killer (and since not everyone at that level of financial insecurity presumbably is killing multiple people, is it possible that something else is the cause?)

Also: which of this adminsitration's policies caused the guy in PA or the one in Colorado to take students hostage and kill them. You seem to know, so share.

[Megahurtz]

153. Facts? What Facts?

You are only posting opinions, not facts.

If my posts are incoherant to you it's because you have a comprehension problem,
(i.e. you haven't the slightest clue what I'm talking about)
otherwise, if you could comprehend what I'm saying and why I'm saying it
you wouldn't have come bolting out of the blue on the offensive
and ranting at me for no reason like you did.

Not only are you ignorant but you are acting like a real jerk.
Sorry, if you don't get it I'm not going to get sucked into your argument.:hi:

[onenote]

248. what part of the link I posted wasn't factual?

Can't stand the heat?

[951-Riverside]

55. Bush in a way IS the "Manchurian Candidate"

[pkz]

47. cats raping dogs

My husband has a saying bout the total breakdown of society. When he hears a story like this he says "cats raping dogs"

My heart with those sweet souls.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

48. How sad!

The Amish aren't by chance on that list of suspected domestic terrorist are they?

[shadowknows69]

61. Yeah, were in imminent danger

of them building better quality houses than most of the contractors in the US.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

78. It doesn't make any sense why anyone would do this

Many things make no sense to me anymore, however.

[DeepModem Mom]

51. This is almost impossible to process -- WHY??? nt

[marshall]

56. Hate Crime

Somebody with an ax to grind against the Amish, for whatever reason.

[shadowknows69]

64. How the hell could you have an axe to grind with the amish?

people are just snapping in vast numbers.

[marshall]

74. The Amish are vulnerable

They are easy targets, just like the homeless and other people who for whatever reason are less powerful.

[sybylla]

155. They are a target for bigoted idiots

I live in the middle of an Amish community. I hear the English (as the Amish call us) curse the Amish all the time for not paying property taxes or road taxes or whatever they get that we don't.

It's stupid and breeds this kind of grade school hate for those who are different.

But it happens.

As I posted earlier in this thread, in the 16 years I've lived here, my community and neighboring Amish communities have experienced at least a dozen hate crimes - buggies run off the road with passengers injured or killed, young girls raped on their way home from school or work, Amish businesses robbed and burned, Amish stopped in their buggies at gunpoint and robbed - and those are only the crimes reported. These are a very private people. The stricter sects avoid using public services like the police entirely.

[melnjones]

264. There are lots of reasons to have an axe to grind with the amish...

I say that being myself ethnic Amish, non-practicing. There's a lot people don't know about the Amish. Regardless, it doesn't sound like this guy had a grudge against the Amish themselves...perhaps against females though.

[DeepModem Mom]

85. That has to be a possibility. nt

[The Stranger]

115. When the head of state advocates torture and murder, others follow.

Society rots like fish -- from the head down.

[shadowknows69]

Who shoots the Amish?

This world is going to shit at an alarming rate. All prayers for all the victims. This sucks.

[LostinVA]

63. It may have been a fellow Amish...

[shadowknows69]

58. Who shoots the Amish?

This world is going to shit at an alarming rate. All prayers for all the victims. This sucks.

[CatholicEdHead]

66. Just guessing, maybe a former Amish who left

Maybe something snapped in the rebelling.

[ancient_nomad]

59. Five dear children are dead

This is according to our local news, WGAL. The 3 children in the hospital (LGH) are suffering from multiple gunshot wounds, are in critical condition, and are going to be transfered to pediatric trauma centers in Phila.

God, I am so sad. If you could ever see these dear little Amish children. Well, it breaks my heart.

The shooter took his own life. Police are combing the surrounding fields looking for wounded children who they believe may have fled from the school house.

I have a story about Nickel Mines...sorry, I just can't tell it right now. I am too upset.

update: county coroner is reporting 6 fatalities.

[shadowknows69]

62. OMG

This has just ruined my whole day. What madness is this? Who shoots fucking children!!!

[Sequoia]

65. Damn, damn, damn....WTF! Children.

[katinmn]

67. I'm so sorry about this terrible, terrible tragedy

This is an epidemic that must be stopped.

[wicket]

70. This is horrible!!!!

:cry:

Prayers for all.

[qanda]

73. I'm so sorry

I don't know what this world is coming to.

[rodeodance]

79. omg........there are no words for this

[Gregorian]

80. NO. This is so sad.

There is nothing to say. Just sadness.

[Mad_Dem_X]

144. Jesus Christ

And Amish children, of all people. :wtf: :cry:

[bling bling]

69. Copycat shootings?

Seems like whenever there's a highly reported school shooting in the news, a few more happen in the next several days. At least that's how it seemed when Columbine happened, and with this.

When I was in high school I never worried about anybody bringing guns to school, and it wasn't *that* long ago. And I certainly never worried about it in elementary school.

It seems like a more dangerous world out there for children these days than when I was a child. It's so sad that these childrens lives are gone and their families are forever destroyed.

:cry:

[RamboLiberal]

77. I'm insulted by those of you here who think every tragedy

that becomes a big news story is some Karl Rove device to distract the news from Repuke or Bush scandals. Shit happens.

No, I believe this is a monkey see, monkey do copycat type of crime that is all to prevalent in this sick society.

My prayers and thoughts are with the gentle Amish people in the Lancaster area of my state.

[onenote]

136. Thank you

I'm not so much insulted as embarassed. School shootings (and workplace shootings) take place in this country for a variety of reasons, and always have. Suggesting that they have anything to do with Rove or the repubs is a clear sign that someone suffering from tinfoil poisoning.

List of school shootings:
http://www2.indystar.com/library/factfiles/crime/school_violence/school_shootings.html

List of workplace shootings:
http://www.disaster-management.net/workplace_shoot.htm

[Tight_rope]

81. Grow up in Lancaster....I can't believe what is happening!

It was such a beauty, peaceful town.

[RamboLiberal]

83. Had a chance to tour Lancaster for several days

a summer ago. Loved the area and the gentle Amish and Mennonite people. There's also settlements in Northwestern PA and in Indiana County where I've visited.

So terrible that this violence is visited upon their children!

[JerseygirlCT]

167. Spent several years there myself

and I agree.

And while NONE of these killings could possibly make sense, the idea of murdering little Amish girls is just... words fail me.

[ancient_nomad]

82. Everyone please pray....

for the victims who are wounded - they are in very critical condition - and for the souls of the dead.

This is just unbelievable. I don't even recognize this country anymore.

[TBreeze]

84. .

:cry:

[Janice325]

86. Oh, god.

It's on live on at least MSNBC (Rita reporting but I had to switch stations) and CNN which I'm now watching. At least six dead.
I'm gonna have to turn off tv, log off the computer, and go try and play with my dog for a while.
And go cry.
:cry:

[Pachamama]

88. Don't you just love America? We allow torture and our kids arent' even

safe going to school or being around Republican Congressman!

:puke:

The Amish people are some of the most peaceful people in this country. So imagine, even the most peaceful people aren't even safe from the reaches of violence.

I just heard that the victims who are dead and injured are girls between the ages of 6-12 years old.

:cry:

[smirkymonkey]

165. How much of an f-ing coward do you have to be to go after

little girls! Did that make him feel like a big MAN or something - what a pathetic excuse of a human being.

[johnnie]

89. I wouldn't be too quick to say the shooter was an outsider

Amish kids can be just like any other kid out there. Just saying.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

90. New Conference (State Police) any minute...

new info so far.

Gunman pulled up in a pick-up truck, ordered the boys out and then started shooting.



One report says witnesses called him "Roy". Perhaps not a stranger then?

This is all so sad. :(

[Viva_La_Revolution]

92. bumped by Hastert press conference...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2540604&mesg_id=2540604

Joining it now...

[ancient_nomad]

91. This is SICK.....

According to our local news just now....

the boys were allowed to leave the school. All the girls had to stay.

[dipsydoodle]

93. Six killed at Amish school

Don't come much more sickening than this

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1235905,00.html

[sinkingfeeling]

95. Yes, the peaceful, technology rebuffing Amish dealing with this is heart

breaking.

[Marie26]

112. What is going on in this country?

The most peaceful, quiet, people attacked with such violence. So sad and disturbing.

[Marie26]

113. ...

[ananda]

94. incredible

I just can't imagine why anyone would want to hurt or kill the Amish. Sheesh.

There's a sickness in this country... probably caused by Bush's shadow.

[happyslug]

96. Crystal Meth????

Drug addiction is a HUGE problem in the Amish community. You must understand at about age 16 the young men and women go to the "City" (Basically outside their Community) and live it up for a few years and then return to their family's home, get married. The Amish calls this "rumspringa" i.e the Pennsylvania German dialect meaning "running around". While in the "City" among the "English" (i.e. Non-Amish) many Amish end up on Drug, Crystal Meth is the most common today.

http://www.art-museum.org/other/amish/meth1.htm
http://www.amishnews.com/publishersmessages/amishanddrugs.htm
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0613/p16s01-bogn.html

[fidgeting wildly]

118. Gunman wasn't Amish.

He may have been on meth, but according to CNN, he was a truck driver who lived nearby. Not Amish and not a kid.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/10/02/amish.shooting/index.html">Truck driver kills three girls in Amish school shooting

[happyslug]

129. The Amish have a lot of ex-Amish out there.

Just because he is a truck driver does NOT mean he is NOT ex-amish. IT is not unusual for the "Young Kids" to not come back till very later in life, or to live near their still Amish relatives. Furthermore, given the high use of drugs among the Amish, the truck driver may have been a supplier or even being supplied by a dealer who happens to be Amish. Lets wait for all the facts to come out before we start destroying each other theories on why this tragedy happened.

[melnjones]

267. technically they would be non-practicing...

the Amish are an ethnic group, not just a religion. By blood I am 255/256 Amish, although non-practicing. Grew up Mennonite.

[rodeodance]

147. The amish do NOT drive. It was a truck driver that did this.

[melnjones]

266. Ignorant...

some Amish do drive. Regardless, the dude wasn't amish, but you don't know your facts. The Amish vary greatly from location to location and church to church, and you can be non-practicing but you are still ethnically Amish if you have the ancestry. My Amish uncles and cousins have driven all my life...they are allowed to drive work vehicles. Just depends on the church and the bishop.

[Redstone]

97. Guns, guns, we need MORE GUNS in this country! Guns are great!

Redstone

[proud2BlibKansan]

108. This is exactly why I lobbied so hard against CCW

More guns in our communities means more guns in schools.

[lgn19087]

111. What do guns have to do with this?

The guy could have killed the kids using steak knives just as easily. Maybe if the teacher was armed, it wouldn't have been so bad.

[bettyellen]

123. yep, if people try to escape he could throw knives at them....

or poison darts. there are so many easy ways for one man to hold hostages without firearms.

[Xithras]

152. How about "I have a bomb"

Even a simple bleach bomb would be enough to stop most people from running away. If your hostage taker is suicidal, a bomb is just as effective as a gun. More so really, because you can hide from a shooter, play dead, or escape while he's looking the other way. A bomb blast is pretty indiscriminate.

People use guns because they're easy to get. Taking the guns away isn't going to stop the problem though...a stop at Home Depot and Target can provide all the materials needed to build an explosive in under half an hour, and the instructions for doing so are all over the internet.

Everyone remembers the guns that the kids at Columbine used to attack the school, but nobody remembers the propane bombs the two kids planted in the cafeteria. They never detonated the bombs because their plans went awry the kids in the school scattered much faster than they expected, but the death toll would have been far higher if they'd set off the bombs first (apparently they didn't do so because some younger siblings of other Trenchcoat Mafia members were in the cafeteria at the time). They started shooting first, the kids cleared the cafeteria extremely quickly, and the shooters were left with an empty room to bomb. One could easily make the argument that the presence of guns SAVED a number of children at Columbine...without them, the killers probably would have concentrated on their bombs and the school would have been a fiery bloodbath. It's a rather twisted argument, but it makes the point well...people who are intent on killing large numbers of other people will use whatever tools they have available to do so. Guns are the current favorite, but there ARE alternatives. Taking away guns isn't going to force criminals to revert to knives.

[iverglas]

166. haven't you just answered your own question?

The Columbine kids DIDN'T use a bomb. For whatever reasons; the ones you provided seem to have done the trick. They used guns.

One could easily make the argument that the presence of guns SAVED a number of children at Columbine...without them, the killers probably would have concentrated on their bombs and the school would have been a fiery bloodbath.

What nonsense. Coulda woulda shoulda didn't.

[bettyellen]

242. the kids were running beause the dummies started firing at everyone.

but it's often been the case that people are controlled at gunpoint. waay too often that's the case in hostage situation. no bombs needed.

plus, as you said:
People use guns because they're easy to get. Plus, they've been taught it's fun to aim and shoot. Bombs, not so much. which you yourself agree with.

[Xithras]

244. No coulda woulda about it.

They had bombs. Lots of bombs. Bombs that the police long ago confirmed to be more than capable of levelling the cafeteria and killing everyone in it.

My point wasn't really about Columbine though (admittedly, I may have wandered a bit). My point was that people who want to kill lots of people will always find it easy to do. Many ostriches want to think that banning guns will somehow cause these crimes to stop because alternative forms of mass destruction are too "hard" or too "complicated", and that nobody would bother. What Columbine demonstrates is the ingenuity and ruthlessness present in many of those capable of committing these crimes. It isn't nonsense that kept those bombs from going off, it was plain old dumb luck. Had the 20 pounders detonated, the building would have been levelled and the death toll would have been in the hundreds before a single shot was ever fired. Dumb luck. Nothing else.

Blaming guns doesn't solve anything, it just makes us feel good, like we're doing something. The people who commit these attacks don't do them because they have easy access to guns, they commit them because they're NUTS. Take away their guns, and they'll use bombs. Are we going to ban gas grilles next? The proper and sane solution is to figure out a way to identify these people and lock them away. Nothing else will stop this crap.

[iverglas]

258. straw ostriches

Here's a couple:

Many ostriches want to think that banning guns
Blaming guns doesn't solve anything

Very few people in this world have any desire to "ban guns", and none of them seems to be involved in this discussion.

Anyone who "blames guns" has some sort of psychotic problem involving ascribing supernatural powers to inanimate objects, and I'm not seeing anyone like that hereabouts either.

The people who commit these attacks don't do them because they have easy access to guns, they commit them because they're NUTS.

Once again: who said that anyone did anything BECAUSE they had easy access to guns?

I don't eat pizza because it's there: I eat it because I'm hungry. But I wouldn't be eating it if it weren't there.

[Xithras]

282. But..

I don't eat pizza because it's there: I eat it because I'm hungry. But I wouldn't be eating it if it weren't there.

You wouldn't be eating the pizza if it weren't there, but if you were hungry you would look for something else to eat. Taking away the pizza isn't going to make your hunger vanish.

As for people not wanting to ban guns, take a look at the subthread were in again. I didn't post in response to the discussion in general, but instead specifically within a subthread started by the argument that guns WERE somehow responsible.

[iverglas]

285. take a look yourself

As for people not wanting to ban guns, take a look at the subthread were in again. I didn't post in response to the discussion in general, but instead specifically within a subthread started by the argument that guns WERE somehow responsible.

And then try copying and pasting any suggestion you find that guns were responsible for anything.

Anyone who said that guns were responsible for something would -- as I believe I already said -- be pretty much psychotic. People who believe that inanimate objects do things, or bear responsibility for things done, are generally mad.


You wouldn't be eating the pizza if it weren't there, but if you were hungry you would look for something else to eat. Taking away the pizza isn't going to make your hunger vanish.

Uh, no. Damn, analogies just don't work around here, do they?

There are substitute goods that serve the same purpose as pizza, even if they don't taste as good. They'll fill me up. But hmm, if the only substitutes are maggots, maybe I'll just go hungry.

Pizza and maggots will both fill me up.

Guns and big red apples will both kill people.

Funny how there are actually differences between the things in both sets that make it more likely that most people will pick one for the task at hand than the other, eh?

[marshall]

291. He chose these people purposely

They wouldn't have tried to escape. The boys helped him bring his supplies into the building. He knew this was a naive and trusting group of folk who would respect an adult. He did have knives and stun guns and I suppose he could have just strangled them with his bare hands if he had wanted to. There is just nothing that could have been done to prevent this kind of evil.

[Redstone]

157. Oh, yeah, right. Next you'll be saying he could have run them over with

a car. Give me a fucking break.

Redstone

[lgn19087]

164. Indeed, he could have

or used a bomb, as the above poster so eloquently put it. The fact is, this was one sick bastard, and if he woke up that day and decided he wanted to murder a bunch of kids, some gun control law wouldn't have stopped him.

[stepnw1f]

168. LOL... In Bigtime Denial

Wow.... ya... guns got nothing to do with his. Get a fucking clue....

[lgn19087]

283. So let me get this straight

You're telling me, that if we had had total and complete gun control, this would have never happened?

[iverglas]

286. No, let me. Please.

You're telling me, that if we had had total and complete gun control, this would have never happened?

You're putting words in someone else's mouth that s/he never spoke but that you want to make someone think convey his/her thoughts, and you are doing this for the purpose of making him/her and anyone who supports firearms control look like a complete fools, probably acting out of some sinister but unadmitted motivation, without any basis for that insinuation at all?

Okey dokey.

[lgn19087]

287. As far as I know

he/she is perfectly able to speak for his/her self. Unless you have something substantial to be, there really isn't need for you to address me with your pithy comments. Thank you for your input.

[iverglas]

289. yada yada blah blah

Ah, but there was every need to address you with my pithy comments. There is always a need to point at anti-democratic discourse and demogoguery and call them by name, just to avert the risk of anyone mistaking them for sincere discourse and truth.

I outs 'em when I sees 'em. Lump it, if you like. Be sure not to answer the question accidentally while you're at it, of course. At least it wasn't an attempt to make someone believe something that wasn't true, eh? So it doesn't really call for an answer anyhow; it was what ya call rhetorical.

I'm afraid I can't tell you whether I have "something substantial to be". You'll forgive me, I'm sure.

[lgn19087]

290. The original post to which I replied

"LOL... In Bigtime Denial
Wow.... ya... guns got nothing to do with his. Get a fucking clue...."


How about calling him out for "anti-democratic discourse"?

Again, if you want to debate the substance of the issue, I'm all ears. If not, stop wasting my time.

[iverglas]

292. nah, I'm happy with you

The original post to which I replied
"LOL... In Bigtime Denial
Wow.... ya... guns got nothing to do with his. Get a fucking clue...."

Yup, and your reply was:

So let me get this straight
You're telling me, that if we had had total and complete gun control, this would have never happened?

And if you hadn't stuck a question mark at the end of it, it would have been a great big fat false statement, because the individual you were addressing had not told you, or anyone else, any such thing.

Whew, lucky you had that question mark handy, eh?

You may think that nobody recognizes "so you're saying ...?" (or your variation, "you're telling me ...?") for what it is, but you'll be wrong.

Again, if you want to debate the substance of the issue, I'm all ears. If not, stop wasting my time.

Sweetie, I'll do as I please, and you can like it or lump it. We cool?

[lgn19087]

293. If the depths of your intellect

go no deeper than superfluous retorts about rhetoric, then I am truly sorry. However, I again extend to you an offer to debate the subject. If you feel you are mentally capable of doing so, please, do let me know.

[iverglas]

294. oops, almost missed it

I was just so fascinated with the chat, I forgot all about it.

If the depths of your intellect
go no deeper than superfluous retorts about rhetoric, then I am truly sorry.

If you think that the right-wing roots of your rhetoric are not plain for all to see, then I am hugely amused.

However, I again extend to you an offer to debate the subject.

What, there was a subject? If there was, I'm quite sure you have already avoided it so adeptly that you'll never find it again.

If you feel you are mentally capable of doing so, please, do let me know.

No, I'm sorry, I'm not physically capable of absorbing any more of your stunningly rude and obnoxious and utterly dishonest rhetoric. I find myself unable to catch my breath when laughing that hard.

[kestrel91316]

253. The Amish refuse to raise their own hands in defense of themselves.

Their pacifist beliefs are THAT strong.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

98. info...

10:36 am called in

Schoolteacher - male entered school, took hostages.

ages 6 - 13

teacher, and teacher's aides (older kids)

10:45 am responded to scene.

tried to hail suspect

Another call recieved from Lancaster Co 911 from suspect - Police must leave or I shoot.

Tried to call shooters cell phone, multiple shots while phone ringing

automatic handgun

Troopers stormed school

doors were blocked with 2x6's and 2x4s shooter brought in

found suspect dead on floor

3 injured girls

Told kids to line up in front of the blackboard (cop chokes up!)

tied kids feet together with flex cuffs

let boys and one adult pregnant female and 3 females with infants leave.

teacher was able to escape then and make emergency call

7 injured victims to local hospitals

execution style in the head

Charles Carl Roberts the fourth, nearby resident identified as suspect

took his kids to the bus stop at 8:45 this morning (after working night shift)

wife left home, came back a few hours later to find suicide notes addressed to the kids

she called him while he was holding hostages, said he wasn't coming home.

Q&A

- rambling letters
seeking revenge for something that happened 20 years ago

suspect not wanted for anything prior
no illegal activity suspected

borrowed the pick up truck from a relative



3 students dead
suspect dead
7 injured students transported (unaware of their status)

[Viva_La_Revolution]

101. in the school for approx 45 minutes

45 minutes of horror for those kids. :cry:

[Viva_La_Revolution]

104. "everybody that died today was a female"

students and one aide (older teen)

[johnnie]

105. What the fuck?

Grown men going into schools and doing this? What the hell is going on?

[IndianaGreen]

121. Perhaps Viagra has something to do with it. Who knows?

There are studies showing that the chemicals in our environment are affecting all of us.

[anotherdrew]

140. AMBIEN - he just finished night shift, bet he took some, perhaps... n/t

[INDIA]

162. Yeah...

perhaps.:eyes:

[lovuian]

100. I have a friend who lives down the street

she's freakin out over it

[K8-EEE]

107. Sometimes I Think This Country Has Gone Insane

Jesus, where else does shit like this happen?? Fucking guns and gun nuts, glorification of violence coming from the top if you ask me. Sick, sick sick.

[Eurobabe]

110. I agree with you, it's why I don't live here anymore

I'm home on vacation, but I see the US slipping into a black abyss.

[K8-EEE]

127. Where Do You Live?

Whas it difficult to leave?

[Megahurtz]

133. Smart Move.

I've wanted to leave this Country for awhile now, it's just too crazy.
And it's not always so easy to pick up and leave, but I sure hope to in the near future.

[RamboLiberal]

139. Doesn't just happen here - Anyone remember Dunblane?

The Dunblane massacre was a multiple homicide which occurred at the primary school in the town of Dunblane, Scotland on 13 March 1996. It remains the deadliest attack on children in United Kingdom history. Sixteen children and one adult were killed.

On Wednesday 13 March 1996, unemployed former shopkeeper Thomas Hamilton walked into the school armed with two 9mm Browning HP pistols and two Smith and Wesson .357 revolvers. He was carrying 743 cartridges.

After gaining entry to the school, Hamilton made his way to the gym hall and opened fire on a class of 5-6 year olds, killing or wounding every person present bar one pupil. Fifteen children and a teacher (Mrs. Gwen Mayor) died at the scene. He then went into the classroom next to the gym hall and fired a number of shots. The teacher had previously realized that something was wrong and told the children to hide under the tables. A number of bullet holes were found in the children's chairs leading to speculation that had the teacher not told them to hide, there might have been a lot more fatalities. Hamilton allegedly then fired one shot with one of his two revolvers pointing upwards into his mouth, killing himself instantly. A further fifteen children and three adults were rushed to the hospital as soon as the emergency services arrived; however, one of these children was pronounced dead on arrival at the hospital.

A month later, Martin Bryant killed 35 people in the Port Arthur Massacre in Tasmania, Australia. The chief defense psychiatrist in the case has revealed that the Dunblane massacre, and in particular the early treatment of Thomas Hamilton, was the trigger in Bryant's mind for the Port Arthur massacre.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_Massacre

If I'm remembering correctly these were the cases that brought extreme gun control to the UK and Australia. And can someone refresh my memory, I seem to remember an attack in a school in UK on very young children involving a nutcase wielding a sword or some other edged deadly weapon?

[onenote]

149. right. and its not just happening now

Sadly, workplace and school shootings are not new phenomena. IMO, our society has a long history of glorifying violence and making guns too readily available.

[iverglas]

160. well, I hadn't wanted to bring them up myself ...

But I guess you did notice how long ago those incidents were, and how there haven't been any others in recent memory?

As for your sword-wielding nutcase, I'm sure you'll let us know when you find confirmation of the event.

Violence is not a single phenomenon. On the weekend, the CBC showed a special report on the knife culture in Glasgow -- gangs of obviously 10- and 12-year old boys slashing at one another with knives and, in one case captured on those ubiquitous cameras, a machete. That phenomenon is its own self, just as the phenomenon of people killing schoolkids is its own self -- or probably many selves.

There are undoubtedly a number of reasons why these things are happening in the US at rates that are multiples of the rates in Europe, Australia, Canada. Why anyone would think that easy access to firearms by anyone who wants them isn't one of the factors in play, I've never known.

[LynneSin]

117. The shooter was identified and it was NOT one of the students

When I heard it was an Amish school I honestly didn't believe that it one of the students at the school. The Amish School is completely different from public education and the children who attend have very little contact with things like Television or Video Games.

[Penndems]

119. Harrisburg (Pennsylvania) Patriot-News: Amish School Shooting Blog

Gunman Targeted Females

Police say the gunman sent the male students outside while keeping the girls in and blocking the doors. A Pennsylvania State Police spokesperson did say that a pregnant woman was allowed to leave before the shooting started.

- The Associated Press
********************************************************************
Victims

All of the victims were females. There were 12-15 female students in the classroom, between the ages of six and 13. Two students and one aide have died; seven are injured. Victims were shot execution-style in the head. Shots were fired in rapid succession at students, who were forced to line-up at the blackboard.
********************************************************************
More on the shooter

Posted by Lisa Baratta October 2, 2006 14:23
Chief of Police does not believe that Roberts had a criminal record. Roberts mentioned during a phone call to his wife around 11 a.m. that he was getting revenge for something that happened 20 years ago and that he would not be coming home. Roberts also left suicide notes when he left his home this morning before 9 a.m.

- State police press conference
********************************************************************
Weapons found

Posted by Lisa Baratta October 2, 2006 14:21
An automatic handgun and a shotgun were found next to the shooter's body, which was on the floor when police entered the building through windows.

- State police press conference

********************************************************************
Shooter Identified

Posted by Lisa Baratta October 2, 2006 14:05
Shooter identified as: Charles Roberts, IV, of Bart, Pa., a truck driver, husband and father who is from the area.

- State police press conference
********************************************************************
Coroner reports six dead

Posted by Steven Ibanez October 2, 2006 14:05
Six people were dead after a gunman opened fire in a one-room Amish schoolhouse Monday in Pennsylvania's bucolic Lancaster County, the county coroner said.

"So far six confirmed dead and the helicopters are pulling into (Lancaster General Hospital) like crazy," Lancaster County Coroner G. Gary Kirchner said.

It was unclear if the shooter was among the six, but state police had said earlier that he had been killed.

- The Associated Press

********************************************************************
Harrisburg Patriot-News Blog Link: http://www.blogs.pennlive.com/pennlive/amishshooting/

WGAL-TV Chanel 8 Live News Coverage:
http://www.wgal.com/index.html

[kurth]

120. "He was getting revenge for something that happened 20 years ago"?

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/10/02/amish.shooting/index.html

[NMDemDist2]

124. when he was 12? did he go to that school? one report said he wasn't

Amish

good God! :cry:

[Penndems]

126. Unbelievable, isn't it?

The man spent the last twenty years planning revenge for an incident that occurred when he was twelve years old.

As horrific as any school shooting is, for this to happen in Amish country is just absolutely shocking. These people don't bother anyone, and they're certainly not violent. OMG, what a tragic day this is. :cry:

[yellowcanine]

171. He was getting revenge against young girls, not the Amish. See post 169.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

122. Unfathomable

children. Babies.

My sister, who lives there, has told me before that for some political reasons the Amish are not popular. I'm not sure what it is. And I'm not sure this guy had an axe to grind with them, or was just a garden variety evil doer.

[Up2Late]

132. UPDATE: Four girls killed 'execution style' at Amish school (AFP)

(NPR reported this too, I don't know if the AP will of not.)

Four girls killed 'execution style' at Amish school

02/10/2006 19h08

WASHINGTON (AFP) - A gunman shot girls in the head "execution style" at an Amish school in Pennsylvania state, killing four and wounding at least six others, police and officials said.

The gunman, a local truck driver Charles Roberts, was apparently acting in "revenge" for an incident that happened to him 20 years ago.

Roberts killed himself in the one-room remote Amish schoolhouse before police could get to him, State Police Commissioner Jeffrey Miller told a press conference.

Miller confirmed three dead at the scene. "It appears that when he began shooting the victims, these victims were shot execution style in the head," Miller said.

(more at link) <http://www.afp.com/english/news/stories/061002190815.rk7g3ooj.html>

[Bucky]

145. So it looks like he shot several more in the head, only four died (so far)

That's how I'm reading this. God this is soul renching. Several more of these girls, aged 6-12, may have been shot in the head but by some miracle survived--so far. We live in a sick society that glorifies violence. I won't project all this guy's evil onto all of us. But the idea of killing innocents to justify whatever fantasies are floating around in his head... it's cutting too close to other realities we have to live with today, other atrocities that are out of our control, but still leave blood on our hands.

[Up2Late]

158. Here's a link to the CNN police briefing transcript...

...this is so disturbing. :cry:

<http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/10/02/amish.miller/>

...(Miller identified the suspect as Charles Carl Roberts IV, a 32-year-old truck driver who worked nights. He said Roberts took his children to the school bus stop Monday morning as usual. That was the last time his wife saw him.)

Miller: She had left the residence, she came back home and discovered that there were several notes there that were along the lines of suicide notes to each of the kids. So she read these notes and she tried to contact him right away and was unable to reach him.

At approximately 11:00, he called her. He did not tell her where he was, but he stated that he wasn't coming home and that he had left notes for her and the children to explain his actions. And he said that "the police are here, but I'm not coming home." He told her he loved her, and that was it. And shortly thereafter is when the shooting commenced.

(Miller said the letters Roberts left behind were rambling and didn't seem to make much sense.)

Miller: Apparently, he did make a statement to his wife on the phone that he was acting out in a way to achieve revenge for something that happened 20 years ago. And I think that the location, the school, was probably chosen because it provided a close opportunist -- you know, an opportunity to attack where he knew he had young kids. For some reason I believe just based on what we know now at this point -- I mean, we've got a lot of work to do, but from what we know at this point, it seems as though he wanted to -- to attack young female victims, and this is close to his residence. That's the only reason we can figure that he went to the school.

(More at link) <http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/10/02/amish.miller/>

[rodeodance]

151. If this headline came from the ME--I could somehow think it believeable-

but it happened here in the states. my GAWD.

[Rocknrule]

134. Just curious, what does"execution style" mean?

[onenote]

137. lined up, shot in back of head

[LostinVA]

143. Usually behind the ear, up close

Sometimes "just" in the back of the head, also at point-blank range.

[iverglas]

148. revenge for perceived wrongs by Amish

http://www.postchronicle.com/news/original/article_21242336.shtml

... A gunman was reportedly taking revenge on the Amish community for something (unknown) that happened 20 years ago. ...

The gunman, a 32-year-old milk truck driver by the name of Charles Carl Roberts that worked in the vicinity, is confirmed to have killed 3 female children in this one-room Amish school house this morning.

The Amish practise shunning, and it is conceivable that someone who was a victim (or whose parents/family were victims) of that practice, for instance, would indeed feel extreme resentment, and be suffering the sometimes horrific psychological, economic and/or social effects still, 20 years later.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunning

Resentment is also not infrequently felt against groups that form economic collectives, among local competitors who do not have the economic power that such formations can exercise.

No idea what this individual's real or imagined beef or obsession may have been, of course, let alone why he would decide that killing little girls was the best way of satisfying it.

Nonetheless, it's worth remembering that Amish people, like Dalai Lamas and Mother Teresas and you and me and the rest of us, are human beings and are not, either as individuals or collectively, perfect, or necessarily paragons of virtue, Christian charity, etc. Nothing could ever in this world justify what this individual did; something, or more accurately some combination of things, might begin to explain it, though. What those things might be -- apart from rather patently obvious psychological/psychiatric problems of some sort -- we can only hope to find out in order to understand what happened at least a little. And then we can try to learn something from it.

[Xithras]

156. Meydung

The Amish practice of shunning is called meydung (or something like that). I saw a tv show several years ago about it, and the effects it can have. Most of us don't really care when people avoid us, but Amish tend to live in small and close knit communities where everybody knows everybody. When you grow up in that kind of environment, getting shunned by everyone around you can be devastating...imagine living in a world where everyone from your family to the local grocery clerks refused to even acknowledge your existence.

The thing is, the Amish only practice meydung against people who are harmful to their community. The guy in the TV show I watched had started dealing drugs when they cast him out, and there were a few instances cited where Amish had been cast out after converting to other religions and then proselytizing to other Amish (they will accept it if you convert, but they get upset when converts come back and try to convert everyone else). I can't really imagine any situation where a 12 year old boy would be labeled a threat to the community and be thrown out.

[iverglas]

159. eye of the beholder

The thing is, the Amish only practice meydung against people who are harmful to their community.

For all the bleating about individual "freedom" that goes on at this place on a regular basis, I'd expect to see a little less easy acceptance of this kind of collective decision-making!

"Harmful to their community" ... in whose eyes? Is the person being shunned not a member of the community?

Shunning can, of course, affect people who have done nothing harmful to anyone: specifically, the children of shunnees.


The Wikipedia article I linked is actually a pretty decent treatment of the subject.

Severe shunning occurs today only in few old fashioned or Old Order Amish, Mennonite, and Hutterite churches. Shunning is often particularly painful, for the shunnee, in these denominations since they are generally very close-knit, and since the shunned person usually has no significant social links with anyone other than those in their denomination.

The Amish call shunning Meidung, the German word for avoiding. As described in the article on the Amish, severe and uncompromising shunning is a key part of Amish history and contemporary practice. Former Amish woman Ruth Irene Garrett tells the true story, rarely seen in print, of Amish shunning from the shunnee's perspective in Crossing Over: One Woman's Escape from Amish Life. Amish shunning is also the subject of popular fiction novels about shunning.

In the article on the Amish -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish -- see "abuse controversy". Shunning isn't the only bad act that can be laid at the doorstep of Amish communities; sexual abuse has been serious ... and it wasn't always the abusers who got shunned, and for those who did -- well, 90 days of shunning for sexually abusing one's daughter? Two and a half months for repeated sexual assault? And then there's plain old child physical abuse ... and hmm, that whole patriarchy thing that underlies all the rest ...

Shunning is generally regarded, outside communities that practice it and even by many on the inside, as at least potentially a form of abuse. Shame is an important social tool in all human groups, for maintaining some degree of cohesion and adherence to consensus values, but in the wrong hands and used for the wrong reason, or against the wrong people, it can ruin lives without any justification. There are also the social consequences (isolation) and economic consequences (loss of livelihood -- for someone with a grade 8 education) to be considered.

Again, I have absolutely no idea whether this practice figured into this event, and the odds are very high that it didn't. (And again, no matter how horrifically someone may have been treated by any group collectively, it could not justify killing children like this; it is simply important to understand why people do such things, in all the complexity of their reasons.) I just get mildly irritated when I hear too much treacle about how peaceable and harmless and all-round admirable any group of people is. As the wiki article points out, for example, "There is no evidence that physical or sexual abuse is more frequent among the Amish than in the general population" -- and there also doesn't seem to be any evidence that it is *less* frequent. The Amish, as a collective entity, have some pretty serious flaws, in the opinions of people with a variety of perspectives. Who knows what might have shaped this man's?

[kestrel91316]

254. Those who have been shunned usually take their families and join with

nearby Mennonites, who are more tolerant of the shunnees' life choices. And shunning never comes as a surprise to any of them. They get AMPLE warning from the church leaders to clean up their act or else. AND if they clean up their act after shunning begins, and ask forgiveness of the community, they are welcomed back with open arms.

Read Amish Society by John Hostetler for more insight.

[iverglas]

259. don't need "insight", thanks

I have no more interest in this particular fundamentalist, patriarchal bunch than I do in any other.

They're welcome to live their lives as they see fit, as are we all. They are also just as open to criticism, for just as valid reasons, as any of the rest of us.

[yellowcanine]

170. The Amish only shun other Amish who have broken the rules.

There is no evidence that this guy was ever Amish. Anyway they would not shun someone who had never joined the church - and Amish do not join the church until their late teens or early 20s. They only shun individuals who have been part of the church and break the rules. Anyone who is speculating that this had anything to do with shunning doesn't know much about the Amish.

[iverglas]

260. gee, you mean moi?

Anyone who is speculating that this had anything to do with shunning doesn't know much about the Amish.

And there was me, saying that the odds that this had anything to do with shunning were extremely small.

I guess I had a point, though, and I guess that it's easy for a bunch of people to work hard not to get it.

They only shun individuals who have been part of the church and break the rules.

Yeah, and the Taliban only killed Muslim women who committed adultery.

Abuse is abuse, and myself, I don't really give a shit whether someone practises it against one of their "own" or someone else. Abuse -- sexual, physical, psychological -- occurs in Amish communities just as it occurs everywhere else. What might be a little different about abuse in Amish communities, as compared to abuse in mainstream North American society, say, is how the Amish in some cases practise it collectively as a policy, and fail to deal with it collectively when it is committed by individuals.

My point, for anyone who didn't get it, was that the Amish are no more candidates for sainthood than any other human being or group of human beings. And it was addressed to all of the silly posts in this thread about how saintly the Amish are and how only a demon could have anything against them.

This individual quite possibly was a demon. But that doesn't mean that there are no others with quite legitimate grievances against Amish communities or Amish individuals.

[yellowcanine]

261. The Amish are not saints but shunning cannot be compared to killing

women who commit adultery. The Amish see shunning as a way of bringing the individual back into the community. I disagree with them, I think it often drives people away. But it also often brings people back into the community as well. It certainly carries the potential for abuse of power of the majority over the minority. But it is not equivalent to the Taliban killing women caught in adultery. Yes the Amish have their dark side and some have been guilty of covering up physical and even sexual abuse within their communities.

But on the other hand, they do adhere to a doctrine of nonviolence. They will not defend themselves with guns - which is likely why this individual selected the Amish school as a target. I don't see how the grievances others may have with individial Amish or the Amish as a group is relevant to this discussion, no matter how much you might want to correct the romantic view of the Amish that some posters here obviously hold. This is the wrong context to be doing that in, imo. Five innocent children are dead and five more are fighting for their lives. Shouldn't that be the focus of the discussion rather than what sins, collective or individual, might be occuring in the Amish community?

[iverglas]

269. and if only someone had done that

The Amish are not saints but shunning cannot be compared to killing women who commit adultery.

I am so fucking sick to fucking death of people who pretend that someone who presents an off-the-cuff analogy is "comparing X to Y" as if the two were identical.

Killing women who commit adultery IS AN ABUSE. Shunning members of a community in some cases, even many cases, IS AN ABUSE. And so yes, my friend, I CAN "compare" the one to the other -- for the specific purposes for which I did that.

The Amish see shunning as a way of bringing the individual back into the community.

Why the fuck do I care?

People who beat their children with sticks see it as a way of saving their souls. I don't give a shit about that either.

But on the other hand, they do adhere to a doctrine of nonviolence.

So what? What has that got to do with anything under discussion here?

Quite apart from the fact that it is beyond meaningless to say that a group of people collectively adheres to a policy of non-violence, when individual members of the group quite plainly do engage in quite violent behaviour -- and when the group sometimes collectively fails to do anything about that behaviour.

Buddhists adhere to a doctrine of non-violence. Buddhists in Sri Lanka have been murdering Hindus for decades.

They will not defend themselves with guns - which is likely why this individual selected the Amish school as a target.

More silly speculation. It appears that he selected the school as a target because it offered a defensible location. Most schools have no guns in them, they are just larger and more heavily populated and thus more unwieldy for purposes like his.

I don't see how the grievances others may have with individial Amish or the Amish as a group is relevant to this discussion, no matter how much you might want to correct the romantic view of the Amish that some posters here obviously hold. This is the wrong context to be doing that in, imo.

Gee, I guess we agree -- because I thought that this was entirely the wrong context for anyone to be engaging in paeans of praise for the Amish, which is what quite a number of people were doing here, and which was what my post was directed to in the first place.

Five innocent children are dead and five more are fighting for their lives. Shouldn't that be the focus of the discussion rather than what sins, collective or individual, might be occuring in the Amish community?

Actually, I don't know that there's a whole lot to "discuss" in the case of dead and dying children. For some reason, though, quite a number of people seem to have thought that it was an appropriate opening to discuss the evildoing of Mr. Rove, poor nutrition in the US, an ailing economy, massacres in Baghdad, and oh yeah, the saintliness of Amish folk. Let's go chide some of them, shall we?

[yellowcanine]

270. No thanks. I'm chiding you. You made the comparison. Stick by it

or withdraw it. But don't whine because someone took you at your word. How am I or anyone else supposed to know how far we should apply your analogy?

You talk as if you know a lot about the Amish and the practice of shunning but when someone suggested a credible source of information on the Amish you blew them off with "don't need 'insight', thanks". You know what you know and there is no need to let any facts confuse you, is that it? You feel no need to learn more about "this particular fundamentalist, patriarchal bunch" but yet you feel free to critique them on their particular practices based on a Wikipedia article, which you say "is actually a pretty decent treatment of the subject." How would you know whether it is a "decent treatment" or not? You don't give evidence of having the intellectual curiosity to make sure you are basing your opinions on well sourced information so how would you know?

On edit: My comment about the security was not speculation on my part. It was based on a quote by a police spokesman.

Roberts was not Amish and appeared to have nothing against the Amish community, Miller said. Instead, Miller said, he apparently picked the school because it was close by, there were girls there, and it had little or no security.

[iverglas]

271. do what you like (edited)

I made the comparison and I already stuck by it. Got a problem reading the printed word?

You talk as if you know a lot about the Amish and the practice of shunning but when someone suggested a credible source of information on the Amish you blew them off with "don't need 'insight', thanks". You know what you know and there is no need to let any facts confuse you, is that it?

You wish to misrepresent what I said despite the fact that you know what you are saying is false, is that it?

Try reading the posts by melnjones in this thread. Maybe you want to tell her she needs some insight.

You don't give evidence of having the intellectual curiosity to make sure you are basing your opinions on well sourced information so how would you know?

And you don't give evidence of having the ... intellectual ... honesty to address what someone has said rather than engage in misreprsentation, so what do I care?


By the way, you quote a police spokesperson

Roberts was not Amish and appeared to have nothing against the Amish community, Miller said. Instead, Miller said, he apparently picked the school because it was close by, there were girls there, and it had little or no security.

and say:

My comment about the security was not speculation on my part. It was based on a quote by a police spokesman.

Oh dear. If only your comment actually were based on that, and not what it actually was:

They will not defend themselves with guns - which is likely why this individual selected the Amish school as a target.

-- what I was actually responding too, of course, much as you apparently want to make what I said look like something it wasn't ...

[yellowcanine]

273. Read Don Kraybill and John Hostetler if you want to be informed

about the Amish. If not - so be it.


As far as my quote goes, well excuse me, but "security" often means, "defended by guns", even at schools. You went fairly far out on the limb speculating that this guy had something against the Amish, so it is curious to me that you would be so critical of my assumption that security involved guns.

[iverglas]

275. care to copy and paste at all?

You went fairly far out on the limb speculating that this guy had something against the Amish

The statement that I speculated that this guy had something against the Amish is false, but hey, if you can find something to back it up, I might bother to read another post by you.

Ta ta.

[yellowcanine]

276. I am not sure what you want me to back up.

My statement about school security? I pasted in the comment by the police spokesperson. In my original post to you I had the link to the story that I pulled the security quote from. As for equating security with guns, just drive by a local public school in most communities and look for the police cruiser in the parking lot. I can assure you that the cop or deputy inside is armed.

My comments about the Amish and shunning? No I cannot paste in sections from Hostetler or Kraybill. Kraybill has several books on the Amish and as far as I know neither Kraybill nor Hostetler's books are on-line anywhere. Not everything worth reading is on the internet and can be cut and pasted. I know, what a concept.

[iverglas]

277. cripes, how thick do you want to make yourself look?

Here's the content of my post again.

You said:

You went fairly far out on the limb speculating that this guy had something against the Amish

I said in response:

The statement that I speculated that this guy had something against the Amish is false

I suggested that you present something to back up said false statement.

You now ask me what I want you to back up. (And you yammer on for a while about things that have nothing to do with the false statement you made about me, and my suggestion that you try to substantiate your false statement.)

Oh well. I wouldn't want to look that thick myself, but hey, your choice.

[yellowcanine]

278. Sorry-thought you were conceding that your statement was false.

Not that my statement was false. I misread it. But to the point, then....

Here is why I said you speculated that the guy had something against the Amish

revenge for perceived wrongs by Amish Heading of your post 148, correct?

http://www.postchronicle.com/news/original/article_2124...

... A gunman was reportedly taking revenge on the Amish community for something (unknown) that happened 20 years ago. ...

The gunman, a 32-year-old milk truck driver by the name of Charles Carl Roberts that worked in the vicinity, is confirmed to have killed 3 female children in this one-room Amish school house this morning. The quote from the article you linked.

The Amish practise shunning, and it is conceivable that someone who was a victim (or whose parents/family were victims) of that practice, for instance, would indeed feel extreme resentment, and be suffering the sometimes horrific psychological, economic and/or social effects still, 20 years later. Your quote, correct?

Now, it appears you had a quote in there from an article, so I will concede that it was not all speculation your part - some of the speculation was by someone else - but you certainly ran with it and added the part about the shunning, it appeared to me - or was that still quote? I don't see that it is an unfair characterization to say that you were speculating that the man had something against the Amish. You essentially speculated that the man or his parents may have been shunned by the Amish and that is why he resented them. So how was my statement false?

[iverglas]

279. lots to be sorry for

As you oh so correctly observe, this statement:

A gunman was reportedly taking revenge on the Amish community for something (unknown) that happened 20 years ago.

was, after being written by someone quite unknown to me, published in a media report, just as statements very similar to it were published in many other contemporaneous reports.

Quite obviously, the header of my post, "revenge for perceived wrongs by Amish", was a summary of the media report that was the content and subject of my post.

Goodness me. If you want to ascribe the errors in media reports to everyone who cites them here at DU and accuse the people who reproduced them of telling fibs, you've certainly got your work cut out for you.

Of course, if you want to ignore what *I* subsequently said, in my very next post, referring to the practice of "shunning":

Again, I have absolutely no idea whether this practice figured into this event, and the odds are very high that it didn't.

well, you go right ahead. I really don't give a shit. (And you should never mistake pointing out the falsehood of someone's statements for giving a shit about the statements or the person who made them, just in case that was going to be the substance of your next sally.)

I don't see that it is an unfair characterization to say that you were speculating that the man had something against the Amish.

And I'll be needing those special spectacles that no one will ever lend me, I guess, in order to "see" things the way you claim to.

You essentially speculated that the man or his parents may have been shunned by the Amish and that is why he resented them. So how was my statement false?

Oh, in every way imaginable, I'd say.

[yellowcanine]

280. You called it yourself. For someone who "doesn't give a shit" you do

go on and on. Nice try though.

[yellowcanine]

169. Not what I read; Picked Amish school because of lack of security;

Revenge was against wrongs by young girls - He would have been 12 - maybe his female classmates made fun of him.


The gunman, Charles Carl Roberts IV, a 32-year-old truck driver from the nearby town of Bart, was bent on killing young girls as a way of "acting out in revenge for something that happened 20 years ago" when he was a boy, Miller said.

Miller refused to say what that long-ago hurt was.

Roberts was not Amish and appeared to have nothing against the Amish community, Miller said. Instead, Miller said, he apparently picked the school because it was close by, there were girls there, and it had little or no security.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061002/ap_on_re_us/amish_school_shooting

[iverglas]

281. so much to read ...

From the CNN interview transcript quoted in post 158:

And I think that the location, the school, was probably chosen because it provided a close opportunist -- you know, an opportunity to attack where he knew he had young kids. For some reason I believe just based on what we know now at this point -- I mean, we've got a lot of work to do, but from what we know at this point, it seems as though he wanted to -- to attack young female victims, and this is close to his residence. That's the only reason we can figure that he went to the school.

Huh. No mention of lack of security at all.

Seems that EVERYBODY, including Miller, is speculating. Miller's speculations are obviously a little less moronic than some of the speculations here, but his surmises about anything in this regard are no more gospel than anyone else's.

Just a point maybe worth pondering.

By the way, it appears that the speculation about a grievance against the Amish came from a rather reasonable association made between the known fact that the individual had cited an old grievance and the known fact that he had targeted Amish individuals. Turns out the two were probably unrelated, but it was hardly unreasonable for whoever was writing the reports to have thought they were connected.

[NorthernSpy]

173. photo of shooter released; looks a bit like Dwight Schrute on "The Office"

Here.

[Bucky]

174. AFP update:Four girls killed 'execution-style' at Amish school (3 wounded)

It looks like there are four girls murdered and three others shot execution style--that would mean head wounds.

Four girls killed 'execution-style' at Amish school

State Police Commissioner Jeffrey Miller said 32-year-old truck driver Charles Roberts, who was not Amish, killed himself after his reign of terror in the village of Nickel Mines, 35 miles, (55 kilometers) west of Philadelphia.

He told reporters that those who died at the scene included two girls and one young teacher's assistant. Miller said his officers had found a "horrendous" scene of carnage when they forced their way into the school.

Lancaster County coronor Gary Kirchner told AFP one of the victims taken to hospital could not be saved. "I am at the scene... I know of one dead in the hospital," he said.

Lancaster General Hospital spokeswoman Kim Hatch confirmed the girl had died, declined to give her age but said three other patients suffering from gunshot wounds had been airlifted to specialist units.

[saigon68]

175. WOW just like everyday in Baghdad

[kimmerspixelated]

176. Even so,

It really makes you afraid to put your kids on the bus each morning!

[saigon68]

177. I can't disagree with you

Although there must be something in the water these days?

[Megahurtz]

179. Especially if they're girls!

:sarcasm:

[regnaD kciN]

220. Huh?

:wtf:

[Megahurtz]

222. Don't have the links, but

in about 3 other school shootings lately the gunmen were shooting girls only.
Just like this shooter at the Amish school. He let all of the boys leave and held the girls hostage.

[Barrett808]

182. This would be a *slow* day in Baghdad. n/t

[saigon68]

184. Yes they found 50 bodies bound, gaged and shot in Baghdad this morning

[truthisfreedom]

178. blame it on bush. he's the only thing that's changed in America. pre-bush,

America's schools were a heck of a lot safer.

[Indy_Dem_Defender]

181. I hope your being sarcastic

cause shit like this can't be blamed on Bush. Things like this happened before Bush was president, it just didn't get report nationally, it just gets more coverage now to keep people's minds off the war in Iraq.

[Squatch]

185. Columbine happened while Clinton was in office

[denverbill]

186. Baloney. Freepers blamed Clinton for Columbine.

Apparently, Clinton's lack of morality because he got a bj meant that everyone else in the country was justified in relaxing their moral standards, which caused the Columbine killers to lack respect for human life, or so went their warped reasoning.

God only knows what makes America the most murderous country in the world. The availability of guns has something to do with it, but it doesn't explain all of it.

[Journeyman]

190. Where'd you graduate from, Norman Rockwell High? . . .

My high school had two killings, numerous drug deaths, one teacher who had LSD slipped into his coffee twice, and long festering racial tensions that occasionally erupted in fights and stabbings. And I graduated in 1972! And no, this was not an innercity school but a South California suburb.

[xxqqqzme]

210. The African-Anerican & Latino gangs

would regularly face off w/ a couple of stabbings during football games @ Palm Springs High School. It was so bad that homecoming game & dance was held during the day. That was in 1965!

[lvx35]

192. I do blame it on the current climate.

There have been a heck of a lot of these lately, and its way above normal. I do think that the current climate, where life is devalued, contributes to the likelyhood of these things happening...But of course the ultimate blame is on the killers, and can never be placed elsewhere.

[Squatch]

214. That's a stretch, wouldn't you say?

What in the world does climate change have to do with this? Are you saying that the US ratifying the Kyoto Protocol would have prevented this?



(Sorry...bad humor)

[lvx35]

240. hee hee! :) nt

[alcibiades_mystery]

195. That's just dumb

That is all.

[ewagner]

180. I don't know what/who

to blame for this....

maybe it's just coincidence that so much is happening at once...maybe it's because media coverage gives unbalanced individuals an idea...

I'm sickened and heartbroken over this..... :cry:

[Bucky]

183. Partly media, part social values that ignore consequences, glamorize hate

Sick people going around untreated, too many looneys with too many guns at hand, numbness to misogyny, numbness to violence, wars and video games that make mass slaughter seem easy and clean and imagineable, a general social ethic that favors victimizing the innocent and adulating the violent--rap lyrics, harsh punishing Calvinistic teachings, dehumanization, TV and internet making society less social and humans less interconnected...

I could go on... I'm certain we'll find substance abuse is involved in this guy's background. We live in an era of lying and destroying. And of course many of these attackers are copycatting earlier ones that inspired their demented minds looking for some formula to lash out at the world they hate.

You're right... only the crying icon suffices here; there will never be any sense to such insanity. There will only be time and the hollow gratitude that it wasn't any worse than six dead, three seriously wounded, and whatever other carnage that's yet to be revealed.

A terrible week for America.

[superconnected]

205. Acutally it maybe like the book the tipping point where violence

has become epidemic. Police are already saying this may be a copy cat of last weeks killer.

The suicide is likely to bring up auto accidents - as sucicides have been found to do. Not all of those accidents are accidents.

[valerief]

187. Someone is producing more Manchurian Candidate types to

perform the headline-stealing school murders. Again.

[Name removed]

196. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bucky]

200. Thank you, Alcibiades. I was about to reach thru the phone line & hit him.

No time for dumbfucks to raise their crazy voices. They need to go back to the White House where they belong.

[superconnected]

209. They don't actually have to - people are suggestive enough watching

the news and copying others.

[valerief]

232. It's like we're having a horrible replay of the Columbine era. The

attacks are so senseless and savage, I really wonder if these are war games.

[CornField]

188. Military recuitment video games or self-taught?

Funny how the military hasn't put out video games which have the players use strategy to plan human aid drops, setting up hospitals, reconstructing schools and the like... isn't it?

Without a doubt, however, my deepest condolences go out the the families touched by this act of violence. Losing a child is the worst grief.

[fujiyama]

189. I play 3d shoot 'em ups

and know others that do as well. None of us are violent in the least.

I think these people are just fucked up in the head and to add to that, and have no support structure. I think blaming video games and media is idiotic.

[CornField]

203. It can't be so far-fetched if it is a recruitment tool

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/26/AR2005052601505.html

It is an online, multiplayer video game... will lure teenagers into Army culture...
The game employs a realistic and team-oriented approach to give players a sense of what it is like to join the Army, to train how to use weapons and then how to work together on missions.
...
"We want kids to come into the Army and feel like they've already been there."
...
(Col. Casey) Wardynski began developing the game after a similiar recruiting crisis in 1999, when top Army officials were looking for a way to reach out to potential recruits with minimal cost. Wardynski wanted an economical way to counter pop-culture images of the military with a no-nonsense approach to being a soldier. The game, he decided, would provide a gateway to information and entertainment, targeting boys 14 and older.

So, as I was saying, do you think he was military recruitment video game trained or self-taught?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

223. They use rock-climbing walls as recruitment tools.

I'm pretty sure rock-climbing doesn't lead to gun violence either.

[CornField]

225. No, but I bet it leads to more rock climbing. eom

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

228. Well then.

Videogame recruiting could only lead to the playing of more videogames. It's certainly not leading to enlistment.

[CornField]

251. For most I believe that is true

There are others, however, who no longer get a thrill from climbing a fake wall and seek out the real thing.

[Doremus]

237. Oh for godssakes. MENTAL ILLNESS.

Mental illness and little or no societal safeguards or safety nets = disastrous consequences for all of us.

Video games indeed. Pah.

[Bucky]

207. Slow down there. No one's "blaming video games". The problem is

that it's co-symptomatic. A violent society is reflected in violent games, violent foreign policies, and violent communities. But it's not a one-way street either. Arts matter. The arts a society consumes helps to shape its values. There's not a simple A => B => C causal relationship. But the moral and humanistic tone of a society matters and it will affect the way people act.

[superconnected]

212. Gawd, guess you missed advertising.

It's proven what the media reports - ie a suicide, will result in increased suicides.

Also as for advertising - which is the media, it's a science that they can get a percentage of people to do what they want.

If you read publicity books you can see how people respond better to red envelopes than white, and to one ad over another.

[ContraBass Black]

230. No link to video games has yet been suggested.

How do you know it wasn't TV, or maybe that godless, evil heavy metal music?



Or maybe he read a violent book.

[CornField]

250. You miss the point... as do most of the others here

Violence begets violence... societies which honor violence must deal with more violence.

We have a military establishment which is purposefully targeting our young boys with violence. Let me repeat that again, our own government is targeting our youth to desensitize them to violence. So long as we - as a society - allow such things to continue, we will continue to deal with the sad aftermath.

As for your question about books, television and music. Yep, they all go straight to our culture and how we treat and raise our young people and they all, whether it is convenient to our personal belief systems or not, affect our society.

Do I want to ban or censor freedom of expression? No. I do, however, want to ensure my tax dollars aren't being used for certain purposes, including violent recruitment video games.

[Doctor Venmkan]

191. Something has GOT to be done....

I just don't know what.

Some have argued for an "absolute zero tolerance" policy on bullies since Columbine. Wouldn't hurt...but would it have helped in the last two cases where an outside ADULT barged in? No.

I still hold firm my belief that allowing teachers, staff, and volunteers who earn a concealed carry license to keep concealed handguns at school, could deter these things from happening again. As for those who would say, "I would never trust my kid's teacher with a gun!" I would counter that if you don't trust the teacher to handle a gun responsibly, then why the hell are you trusting him with your CHILD?!

It does NOT give me a warm fuzzy feeling knowing that I have loved ones that go to a school without even a "resource officer," and the nearest cop/deputy a good half-hour drive away....

[LostinVA]

193. Yup, staff and teachers having WEAPONS IN A SCHOOL

Is the most rational, perfect solution I'VE ever heard of.

OMG.

[Doctor Venmkan]

202. So you say the current system works?

The one where most teachers can't even carry a can of Mace, let alone a gun?

It makes schools "safer?"

I have three good arguments in the span of about a week that it does not.

[Exiled in America]

226. Logical Fallacy.

Just because someone doesn't think your proposal is a good one doesn't mean they therefore by default believe there is nothing wrong with the current system.

There are quite a few alternatives to the current system or having our teachers get all ramboed up.

[mike_c]

194. how about making it difficult to acquire guns and ammunition...?

That would likely do the trick.

[Squatch]

201. This guy mulled over this act of revenge for 20 YEARS

You could make getting guns and ammunition damn near impossible and this asshole would have STILL gotten his hands on them to commit this act.

[smirkymonkey]

234. What an eff-ing loser!

I don't care what happened to him when he was 12 - to take it out on a group of innocent children 20 years later is just sick beyond belief.

[kestrel91316]

256. But that would make WAAAYYYYY too much sense.

[lvx35]

198. They really do need a security overhaul...

If it takes armed guards, and metal detectors at doors, so be it. I don't think we should get in a situation where teachers carry heat, because they have a very special sort of relationship with the kids and that would warp it. In most of these cases, an armed guard and metal detectors at the doors could have saved lives. But with an amish one room schoolhouse, even that's silly.

Fuck these killers. Who are they, anyway?

[superconnected]

199. generally gun owners.

[lvx35]

204. generally humans too...

but where not talking about getting rid of them. Its a tiny subset of humans and a tiny subset of gun owners. Lets find some attributes that the killers alone have.

[Squatch]

206. Yep!

:thumbsup:

[superconnected]

213. yeah a gun card.

Oh and one of those redneck types that consider the gun as a means of protection and then gets depressed.

Where I come from - civilization, they use security monitoring firms to protect a home, not a rifle...

I guess it just takes someone special that thinks shooting someone else is the answer.

I guess it takes someone willing to kill.

I guess it takes someone like that who gets mad... like the guy who just did.

[Squatch]

217. Yeah...the nerve of the guy to use a gun when he could have used an SUV:

MUCH more 'civilized'

[stillcool]

208. violent society...

from the cradle to the grave...brave new world.

[alcibiades_mystery]

215. Here's what's hard to take: NOTHING CAN BE DONE

Some people just go off without warning. When I'm driving 40 miles per hour on an undivided road, I have to assume that someone in oncoming traffic isn't going to deliberately swerve into me at the last second, killing us both. I have to assume this to drive. I cannot anticipate it, and I cannot prevent it, no matter what I do, no matter what society does. There is nothing that can be done about this sort of thing. It just happens. Yes, that's the hardest fucking thing in the world to accept in a "solutions-oriented" culture, but that's the fucking fact of the world. Nothing could have been done to anticipate opr prevent this. You couldn't have secured a one-room Amish schoolhouse from a lunatic if you tried. It would be impossible. You just assume, and hope, that people aren't going to go off on the freaky-flukey in your presence, and that's the long and short of it.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

218. Amen to that friend

amen..........

[Exiled in America]

227. well said - despite my previous post....

..suggesting there are probably alternatives to the current system that might make things safer.

[Doctor Venmkan]

233. Knowing you're right still does not make it easier to swallow...

But, right you are. At least in this case, nothing could have been done. Metal detectors, or armed guards and police patrolling a quiet Amish schoolhouse is not very likely.

I fear that I'll live to see the day where NO ONE will be able to honestly say "I never thought it could happen here!" :(

[superconnected]

197. sure this stuff used to happen before bush - but not every day

And that torture bill passing did pretty much set the vibe for a violent nation, imo.

[rocktivity]

211. This entire weekend has been like listening to the Howard Stern show

First a crusader against exploited children getting busted for pedophila, then a shooting at an Amish school. Tell we why I don't like Mondays...

:(
rocknation

[yasmina27]

216. I am a middle school teacher

and if anyone ever told me that a new job requirement was to carry a gun - that would be provided to me, I would be given all necessary training, etc. - I would promptly resign.

Nor do I want my children to attend a school where the staff are armed.

Why? #1 - not all staff members are mentally stable enough. I know this sounds really bad, but honestly, I know people I work with who I truly would not trust with a weapon. They're fine as they are, but when they go off, I'd hate to see what would happen if they had easy access to a weapon.

#2 - more dangerous - the kids would know, and they WOULD know where each teacher kept his/her weapon. All it would take would be one unlocked classroom door (my door doesn't have a lock) or an unlocked desk (neither does my desk), then carnage would ensue. And heaven help the teacher whose weapon was used - legally and emotionally.

This is a particularly nasty episode of copy-catting. Anyone who has ever gone though middle school (or junior high when I was a kid)know how damned vicious this age group can be. Not just the overt bullying either - tripping in the halls, teasing, name-calling, etc. Those are all enough to leave emotional scars. The relational aggression, which is most often under the radar of adults and extremely difficult to detect, can be even worse.

I'm sure over the next several days we will learn more about what happened to this man 20 years ago that caused him to do this. Frankly, I'm certain he must have been unstable in some way, because those of us who suffered in early adolescence generally don't go around exacting revenge 20 yrs. later.

Interestingly, I said to my husband just last Friday that I wondered why our school (he teaches there too) hasn't had a lock-down/evacuation drill yet this year. We always do one in September, but we have a new principal. I suppose no one clued him in on this yet.

[Squatch]

219. re reason #1.

If not all staff members are mentally stable, then what in the hell are they doing in the company of our children?

[yasmina27]

221. You're absolutely right

I've asked myself that same question numerous times.

All it really takes is an administrator willing to do the documentation and jump through the hoops to get rid of them. More often than not the teacher retires before that can occur.

[Doctor Venmkan]

231. Beat me to it!

If you can't trust someone not to "go postal" with a gun, then you shouldn't be trusting him with your children! Because if s/he's THAT much of a loose cannon, then s/he should be able to cause significant harm using bare hands or any loose objects at hand!

Some more points:
1-No no and NO to making it a requirement to be armed. The option should be open to those that desire it, but giving every teacher a gun and thinking "that's it, security is all taken care of" is an invitation to disaster...!

"Nor do I want my children to attend a school where the staff are armed."
-Nor would I want MY children to attend a school where there was not at least one licensed gun-carrier around. Be it a cop, guard, or teacher. Like it or not, a SWAT team will not just appear out of thin air when you dial 911.

And the "unlocked desk/door" thing...again, this is why I use the term CARRY. And **Concealed!** And I'd also add "secure retention holster."

No one should leave a loaded gun in a drawer under ANY circumstances, unless they happen to be within arms reach of it at the time.

Oh, and to the poster that said civilized folk use security systems - Pay for one for me, and I may consider leaving the "unwashed masses" that prefer to depend upon THEMSELVES for their safety. Especially in a place where "emergency" response can be measured in HOURS rather than minutes...

[bronxiteforever]

236. Good argument to keep guns from police officers-their not all stable

[wickerwoman]

295. Because not enough other people would put up with the shitty pay,

and lousy conditions?

I've found a lot of them are older teachers too... I'm betting they didn't start out that way but years and years of putting up with rooms full of 14 year olds sent them around the bend. It's certainly not all teachers, but I'm betting every school has two or three who are at least heavy alcoholics or rageaholics.

Go ahead and fire them but there is already a teacher shortage of crisis proportions in many parts of America.

Giving all teachers guns is a horrible, horrible idea.

[LostinVA]

224. THANK YOU

[Jcrowley]

229. Let's face it folks

this is just another horrifying example of how deeply pathological this entire nation has become.

Largest prison population per capita

Pharmaceutical addicts all around

Obesity rampant

At war all the time everywhere

Malls as mecca and shopping as pastime

TV junkies

Meth labs

Teen suicide rates through the roof

It just goes on, this is a very deeply troubled nation

[smirkymonkey]

235. Have we hit bottom yet, or do we still have some digging to do?

[mtowngman]

241. Well here's an idea..

let's make it as easy as possible for citizens of this pathological, deeply troubled nation to get their hands on MORE GUNS. WTF already!?!?!?

[Jcrowley]

243. "Guns and Liquor"

I kid you not that that was the actual name of a store near where I use to live. Had a nice neon sign above the store and a steady flow of clients interested in both.

Armed Madhouse

[NorthernSpy]

246. FWIW, the deadliest (by far!) incident of school violence happened in 1927

Hell came to Bath


In Bath, Michigan, a failing farmer who was angry about property taxes stockpiled enough dynamite to blow up the shiny new school building. He killed 42 people, most of them kids.

NO period in our history is free of incidents of extreme violence. But in every era, many have viewed recent horrors as a new phenomenon heralding the complete collapse of the society as a whole. People view the past as a more peaceful, "innocent" time because they have forgotten about all the dreadful stuff that happened back then.


Just offering a little perspective...

[Jcrowley]

247. I see it as a consistent theme

in America.

These are not spasms as you point out.

What gets to me is people thinking America was once a great country with a moral compass? When was that? I must have missed that part of history. From the massacres of Indians, to slavery, to Hiroshima, Vietnam, to its policies in Latin America, to its support for the creation of the terrorist state of Israel, to supporting the Shah of Iran, to supporting Saddam with intelligence and chemical weapons against the Iranian people, to these modern day Middle East debacles, America has by far the worst track record. They just have a very powerful propaganda machine to show they are the land of the free.

[Doremus]

238. Thank Raygun for dismantling mental health programs.

And all the repigs since who've chipped away at the remains.

They are indeed responsible for this and similar atrocities.

[ckramer]

239. It's the duty of government to find out exactly what led to this and

prevent it from happening again.

[RFKHumphreyObama]

245. This is horrible and tragic beyond words

I remember visiting Lancaster as a tourist when I visited the US and the Amish kids were just so nice and friendly. I remember our tourist bus passing by one of the Amish schools and all the kids smiling and waving at us.

What a terrible, horrific, senseless and pointless tragedy this is. My thoughts, prayers, condolences and deepest sympathies to the families who have lost loved ones and my thoughts, prayers, peace, light and positive vibes to the families who have loved ones who are injured and to the survivors and indeed to the whole Amish community:cry: :cry:

[bigworld]

252. A fourth girl just died. :(

...says BBC.

[Desertrose]

257. I used to live about 10 minutes from the school....

It is one of the prettiest farm areas in Lanc Co. Believe me that those one room schools are just sitting ducks right out in the middle of the fields...This one was on White Oak Road near Nickle Mines (Bart twp). Used to go to the Amish greenhouse on Peach Road all the time.

Man this is just so sad.....three years ago ther ewas another shooting right next door so to speak in York Co.

I can't imagine why he would have chosen those poor Amish girls.....damn, this is just heartbreaking.

Have heard conflicting reports about the fourth girl. Hershey Med said that all three girls were still critical but alive.

This makes my heart weep....................
DR

[charlie and algernon]

263. a fifth girl has now died

damn, damn, damn

:cry:


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15113706/

[ramapo]

265. Guns make it so easy to kill

Our society embraces guns and will not in our lifetimes change (if ever). As long as guns are easy to get, we will continue to have these horrendous incidents.

All the anti-violence summits, security cameras, and "make our schools safe" projects
will not be able to prevent the crazy guy with a small arsenal from killing a bunch of people.

[phusion]

268. Yea, we said the same thing about drugs...

"As long as drugs are easy to get, we will have these horrible overdoses and family problems, etc." So this country decided to launch a war on drugs and look where that has gotten us. :eyes:

[mvd]

274. Well..

You are right that you can very easily hurt and kill with guns. I think that in order to stem the gun tide, things like licensing and limiting number of purchases would be good - and of course, putting more resources into stopping the black market. I'm big on civil liberties, and even though I'm anti-gun, I think people should be able to own them. But unfortunately, sometimes in order to protect, all must give a little bit. Like, people still can't go above the speed limit on roads.

[mvd]

272. This is horrible! Those poor children

I will pray for the dead and wounded. My dad, who's a scientist, said kids sometimes heal faster - I really hope there is no more death or severe brain damage. I wish that sick shooter would have gotten help before going off. Yet another reason I'm for a strong social safety net.

I won't get into the gun thing much, though I am anti-gun. It's the urban areas like Philly that need the strongest laws, yet we need to do everything we can to all keep nuts from guns, wherever they live. There must be a compromise so people still can own and use guns safely, if they choose.

[Witchy_Dem]

284. Charitable Funds Have Been Set Up For The Families

Since they do not have health insurance.

THE BOARD OF TRUSTEES AND THE STAFF OF CSBANK WISHES TO EXPRESS OUR DEEPEST REGRETS TO THE COMMUNITY OF BART TOWNSHIP IN THE WAKE OF THE TRAGIC DEATHS OF OUR NEIGHBORS' CHILDREN TODAY. WE HAVE ESTABLISHED TWO FUNDS FOR ALL NECESSARY HELP AND SOLACE FOR THE BEREAVED.

Funds have been established for those who would like to donate funds to assist those who are effected by the tragedy at Nickel Mines School.

There is the Nickel Mines Children's Fund

Donations can be mailed to:

Nickel Mines Children's Fund
Coatesville Savings Bank
1082 Georgetown Road
Paradise, PA 17562

[iverglas]

288. well that's just too rich

The Amish refuse to participate in things like the US social security plan -- refuse to behave like members of the society whose benefits they do, really, enjoy when they choose (who buys their damned quilts?) -- and oops, what goes and happens?

http://www.answerbag.com/q_view.php/8732

The Amish do not collect Social Security benefits, nor would they collect unemployment or welfare funds. Self sufficiency is the Amish community's answer to government aid programs. Section 310 of the Medicare section of the Social Security act has a sub-section that permits individuals to apply for exemption from the self-employment tax if he is a member of a religious body that is conscientiously opposed to social security benefits but that makes reasonable provision of taking care of their own elderly or dependent members. The Amish have a long history of taking care of their own members. They do not have retirement communities or nursing homes; in most cases, each family takes care of their own, and the Amish community gives assistance as needed."

Self-sufficiency when it's convenient, but it's damned inconvenient when yer not so self-sufficient after all, I guess.



It's for the kids. The kids aren't responsible for their parents' sociopathic behaviour. They need their society's and community's help, and they deserve it.