2 Canadians killed in Afghan attack

[daleo]

Two Canadians were killed and five other soldiers injured in southern Afghanistan, military officials said Tuesday.

The soldiers were involved in a road construction project west of Kandahar when they came under attack from a handful of insurgents armed with rocket-propelled grenades and assault rifles.

Two of the injured are in serious but stable condition. All were evacuated to Kandahar airfield, the main coalition base.

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2006/10/03/nato-killed.html

[pretzel4gore]

1. you can almost feel the harperites/rightwingers squirm....

they want to represent the war as a 'good, necessary' thing but, they forget the facts!
canada went into afghanistan to support the US overthrow of the 'taliban' and help afghanistan get to its feet materially, but....bush put afghanistan on the back burner while he tried to/murdered poor little iraq, leaving afghanistan to drift into situation it's in now. what's freaky about seeing canadians die is the 'support the troops' controversy which tries to attach basic patriotism to what is a ridiculous war, in the face of unacceptable losses! we're trying to help the afghan people, ferchrisake, supposedly...but even had bush not fukked it up from the getgo, afghanistan is not for canadians or westerners to rule over (ie help) - while the taliban were provably assholes, they actually exist mainly thanks to the west in 1st place. Maybe we should just leave afghanistan alone, let them develop their own way. shame on us. our soldiers die for bush! and kill for him while they're at it....

[Spazito]

2. Canadians are NOT in favour in this, the government changed

the mission from peacekeeping and reconstruction to active combat. Every death just re-inforces the number and certitude of the public that this is the wrong mission.

[flamingyouth]

5. You're absolutely right

Sadly, these deaths come just days after this this poll was released:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=2539763

[george_maniakes]

3. for afghans

"Maybe we should just leave afghanistan alone, let them develop their own way."

You could say that for sudan, bosnia, etc. Canada is there for a moral , good reason. Not for americas interests, for afghan interests.

You cannot sit back and be a target while the enemy is planning to hit you. You have to also hit back sometimes.

[saigon68]

4. They are dying for the Halliburton shareholders

And other rich NEOCON Corporate exploiters

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

12. No, no! It's moral and good!

And I've got a piece of land on Horseshit River I'm willing to part with for a fair price.

[saigon68]

15. Does it flood in the spring?

LOL

[daleo]

6. Afghanistan is just a fairly squalid civil war now

Basically the south (Pashtun/Taliban) is against the north (we used to call them the warlords). They are fighting to control the limited resources of the country, including drugs. Democracy, womens' rights, etc. are not really relevant. The presence of the west just inflames the situation, as the presence of the Soviets did. The side being propped up by the west will never gain popular legitimacy.

If the Taliban does get back into power in Afghanistan, they will know better than to dalliance with Bin Laden again. It just wasn't worth if for them. We might as well call this last few years a "punitive expedition" and leave.

All this assumes that Bin Laden was the real force behind 911, which has no legal foundation yet. We now know the 911 commission was in many respects incompetent.

About 30 Canadians out of a force of 2000 have died in Afghanistan this year. Scale those numbers up to U.S. troop levels in Iraq, and you would get about 2250 out of 150,000. That's just deaths - you can multiply those numbers by 4 or 5 to get a good estimate of serious injuries. For our small military, this is turning into a disaster with no improvement in sight. Likely, things will only get worse.

On edit - I count 112 wounded since January on the CBC website.

[legin]

28. a 1 in 66 chance of being killed for a 1 year rotation

that is not good at all. (it's not even an entire year yet also)

this is up to Soviet standard casualties figure:
15,000 in ten years, force 80,000 - 110,000 (from memory).

[Spazito]

7. When their mission was one of peacekeeping and reconstruction

they WERE there for a good, moral reason, to aid the Afghan people. Now, they are serving the political needs of the current government who want a cozier relationship with bush, harper is vieing to be blair's replacement as bush's poodle.

The previous Liberal government changed the mission as an election ploy, a crass attempt to draw off voters from the faux cons.

[CHIMO]

9. Maybe You

Should listen to local informed information.

At 12:00 into the program.
http://cbc.ca/asithappens/media/dailyshow/2006-10-03-aih1.ram

AFGHAN RECONSTRUCTION

Since the beginning of the mission in Afghanistan, many Canadians have been uncertain about Canada's role in the region. Are the soldiers there to fight a war? To keep peace? To rebuild a broken nation? Or all of the above? And with tensions increasing between the region's two biggest players - Pakistan's President Pervez Musharraf and Afghanistan's President Hamid Karzai, the question of stability and reconstruction is getting even more complicated. Akbar Ahmed is Pakistan's former High Commissioner to the United Kingdom, and is one of the foremost experts on politics in South Asia. He is also the Chair of Islamic Studies at American University in Washington DC. That's where we reached him.

[oblivious]

10. The Taliban was never a threat to Canada before we attacked them

We have no right to overthrow any government. There is nothing moral in that.

We may not like the Taliban but they weren't nearly as evil and vicious as the warlords they replaced.

[pampango]

17. "We have no right to overthrow any government."

Anywhere? Anytime? Only if we are attacked by an official military force from a country? How about Germany (never attacked us) and Japan in WWII? Was it OK then but not now?

What is to be done in Darfur? Force the Sudanese government to stop the slaughter, but be careful not to overthrow them? Help Bosnia, but leave Milosevic alone? Do nothing in Rwanda, then apologize for ignoring the slaughter later?

I don't think invasions are the answer to all problems, but I am glad that Milosevic died in jail and that Germany and Japan are modern democracies now. I love negotiations, but don't kid myself that Slobodan or Kim give a hoot about my posturing. Clinton/NATO's bombing of Serbia stopped a civilian slaughter of Muslims and landed Slobo (a Christian) in the Hague. Military solutions don't always work, but they don't "never" work either.

"We may not like the Taliban but they weren't nearly as evil and vicious as the warlords they replaced." Spoken like a true feminist and democrat. If the war lords are worse than the Taliban (details please) they have really accomplished something.

[george_maniakes]

18. Id just like to add too...

Canada is not adopting a "good versus evil, us against them" mentality. Some conservative government neo-con wannabe's might be spouting that kind of nonsense, but canadians in general can understand and accept the shades of grey here, how a man fighting for the taliban one day can be an effective part of the afghan government next year. There are the die-hards both at the top and bottom of the taliban hierarchy who will never give in for God knows what reasons, but then theres the others who can be persuaded to see things in other light. We just have to make a good arguement, and start with what we all have in common. Way i see it, ireland is moving forward. Its not perfect, but its moving forward. If ireland with its history can do that, why not afghanistan?

[CHIMO]

20. Afghanistan Inc.: New Report Says "Contractors Making Big Money for Bad Wo

Afghanistan Inc.: New Report Says "Contractors Making Big Money for Bad Work"

In Afghanistan, NATO has now taken command of most foreign troops across the country. The handover of power comes just days before the fifth anniversary of the U.S.-led invasion of Afghanistan of 2001. The U.S. continues to have more troops than any other country in Afghanistan. The U.S. will also retain full control of Bagram Air Force base where the Bush administration is holding hundreds of prisoners

FARIBA NAWA: Well, it is not in a good position right now. I think it's worse than it's ever been, since the 2001 topple of the Taliban. And it's going to get worse. From my research and my time in Afghanistan, people are leaving again. Refugees who had come back are leaving again in large numbers and selling their homes. A lot of the diaspora, who in fact, like myself, were very hopeful that there would be sustainable change, but that isn't going to happen. So even people like myself are coming back. And it's a dire situation right now. Security, reconstruction -- reconstruction has been, for the most part, a failure, I would say. And that goes hand in hand with how security has gotten worse over the years.

FARIBA NAWA: The largest contractor in Afghanistan is the Louis Berger Group. It’s an engineering consulting company out of New Jersey, and they received initially $665 million for a period of four or five years. And they were given the task of infrastructure. And under that was building and rebuilding schools and clinics, roads, electricity, dams. And they did a horrendous job. And it is in the report, the details are in the report about how some of their projects failed. They had a few success stories, but for the most part, the things they did do well or the things they did do, they did not do well. The quality was bad for a lot of money. They have -- they were supposed to build clinics where they didn't even know where the clinics were. School roofs collapsed before they were ever used. Roads that were built were falling apart before they were ever used. And this is with American taxpayers' money.

And then, how were they reprimanded for this? They weren't. They were awarded another $1.4 billion contract with another company called Black & Veatch just this summer to continue doing their work in infrastructure and also bring power to Afghanistan through Uzbekistan. And that is an unacceptable thing, because their track record showed that they couldn't do the job well.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/10/05/1430204

[george_maniakes]

22. from the same article

"I think it's a misconception to say that the Afghans want the Taliban to come back. They were not happy with the Taliban. That's not an accurate statement. I think maybe in the southern villages, where nothing has changed, and it never did --girls never went to school, women were never able to work -- then perhaps that's where the popular support is. But for, you know, for a large part of the country, people are very afraid that the Taliban are going to come back and then going to have another reign of terror, like they did before."



"Well, there's a misunderstanding about the private sector and the public. So Afghans seem to think that they're all NGOs, and the NGOs are all bad because they're not doing anything. But that's because there is a lack of information about these private contractors. And the private contractors do work with NGOs. For example, Chemonics works with 40 NGOs, and Chemonics is the funder. And Afghans are very upset, because they don't see the results they were looking for.

That said, there has been a lot of progress. You see houses being built. You see people who work. You know, there is more work than there was during the Taliban period. I mean, there's no argument that life has gotten better for a lot of people in the cities, especially in the north and the west, since the Taliban left.

But still, I mean, the riots that happened in June, where, you know, many buildings were on fire, and there were people going down the street, saying, “Death to America! Death to Karzai!” That was, for the most part, popular sentiment. But that doesn't mean they want, you know -- I don't find the resistance movement right now that's there a legitimate Afghan resistance. So when, you know, when I hear politicians talking about it that way, I tend to disagree. "

And i love this : "And only -- there is an estimate -- I don't know how accurate this is -- that only 30% of that money has actually reached the ground on projects."

Lets say shes wrong and its closer to 50%. Thats a lot of friggin overhead. I say get the freakin american clowns running the show out of there asap before they can be allowed to keep fucking things up.

[0007]

8. Pile two more on the Canadian pile

Grass Bush

Pile the bodies high in Austerlitz and Waterloo Iraq
Shovel them under and let me work--
I am the grass; bush; I cover all.

And pile them high in Gettyburg Baghdad
And pile them high in Ypres and Vedum Afghanistan and Al Fallaujah

Two years, ten years, and passengers ask the conductor:
What place is this?

I am the grass bush.
Let me work.

Carl Sandburg


Support the war - Donate a Son a Daughter
The GOP working for a better America
God Bless America

[ConcernedCanuk]

11. If the US MSM only did as our MSM does, would y'all still be in Iraq?

.
.
.

From our "Star"



Two Canadian soldiers were killed and five others were wounded today in an insurgent attack on ground the Canadians took from the Taliban just weeks ago. Both of the fallen soldiers were members of the Royal Canadian Dragoons based in Petawawa.

http://www.thestar.com/

That's the top story, and always is whenever one or more of ours dies over there - -

The article is Here cuz it won't stay front page forever.

NOW,

if the US MSM put every dead soldiers face from Iraq and Afghanistan on front page National news,

I ask again,

Would y'all still be over there?

I think not.

[george_maniakes]

13. Canada is there for afghan interests...

Not american, not halliburton. We are there providing security so reconstruction can take place, so that afghans can lead better lives. The afghan army is getting stronger but its not to the point yet where it can go it alone yet, and the afghan police is...well it needs a lot of work. A fellow told me a story the other day about an afghan sergent in the afghan army who left a prosperous buisness in pakistan to come back to afghanistan, because he was tired of seeing his country subjected to constant war. Canada is not there to make afghanistan more like canada, its there to help afghans enjoy the same rights ALL people on this earth are entitled to that All sane people can agree are "good" rights: education, basic sanitation, a voice in saying who leads them, making those leaders accountable, things that afghans actually want. Yes, there are a LOT of other places in the world that Canada could have likewise intervened, maybe should have instead (sudan? congo?), and yup politics probably played a part in why we are there instead of somewhere else. But we are there, and the mission is good. If it becomes not good (canada starts burning crops of opium without providing alternatives that actually work, or propping up a government that does not have the interests of afghans in mind, etc) then i would be a big believer in getting out ASAP. But it is a just cause, canada wants to improve afghan lives, with NO STRINGS ATTACHED. Afghans want us out? We leave. But they want us there. So we will stay and help build something good.

[daleo]

14. If the people of Afghanistan want us there, why are they killing us?

I doubt there is any popular desire for western troops anymore, if there ever was. It seems obvious that the Taliban have at least as much support there as we do.

The big difference with Bosnia, Cyprus and other places where we were involved in peacekeeping is that most people in those countries weren't trying to kill us, or weren't passively observing the people who were trying to kill us.

[george_maniakes]

16. Everybody wants a better life. Except the taliban i guess.

There is a popular desire for reconstruction and a better life. Canada is there helping afghans to reach that goal. Depending on where you were in cyprus, bosnia, you better believe there were lots of people passively observing canadians getting shot at. Because they were civilians with families and they were not about to stick their necks out for trained soldiers when they have families to take care of, and have to deal with any fallout when the troops are gone.

[daleo]

19. 40 dead and 120 wounded Canadians in Afghanistan

Cyprus and Bosnia never had one-tenth the Canadian casualties of Afghanistan. How many have to die and be maimed before it's enough?

100?
200?
1000?
5000?

This is simply not working and won't work.

[george_maniakes]

21. how many?

As many as are willing. Count me in. Its a noble enough cause to give my limbs and my life. And im not alone. I am not going to withhold my help from afghans because they had the misfortune of being part of the states' "war on terror". If you want instant results, buy a scratch lottery ticket.

[Spazito]

23. So, I can assume you are posting this on the fly as you prepare to

enlist, right? Hurry, don't waste your time posting, get your ass over there for the "noble" cause!

If you aren't enlisting, why not?

[pampango]

25. Would it change your opinion, if he did? n/t

[Spazito]

26. Would it change my opinion that the mission in Afghanistan should

have remained one of peacekeeping and reconstruction, NO, it would not. What it would do is show that the poster actually believes what they are saying and are willing to put their life on the line as opposed to cheer-leading OTHERS who are serving and DO have their lives on the line because they are following orders thanks to CHEERLEADERS who sit safely in Canada being "couch warriors".

[george_maniakes]

31. I absolutly agree with you we need more recontruction

Like that article states above, it seems like reconstruction so far has been one big gagglefuck. But instead of friggin off, i say lets bring some accountability to these companies that are fucking the job up. Now that NATO is calling more of the shots, lets have some more alternatives then "ahh, lets throw some more money at brown and root, ya that should solve the problem." Especially when these companies are a big part of the hearts and minds battle.

[george_maniakes]

30. Actually im already part of the big green machine

But to be fair i havent been to afghanistan yet, and it looks like i wont be going for at least a year, unless another unit has spots to be filled and im next on the waiting list. So for all i know the moment someone fires a shot in anger at me personally im going to crap my pants, cry for my mommy and tell anyone in earshot "fuck this, i wanna go home!". But for now, i want to go. Because i think its worth it. And God willing i'll have enough self-control to tough it out until they dont need or want us anymore.

[Spazito]

32. Well, "spots" are opening up on a very frequent basis...

another Canadian died today so you may get your "wish" soon.

Oh, and don't assume the shot will be one fired in anger, we have lost a number of soldiers from shots fired by our "allies".

[pampango]

24. Welcome to DU, George!

"Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty."

We live in a real world that often does not allow us to live up to our own ideals - usually because the cost is too high, in terms of dollars or lives. I view the Taliban in Afghanistan as their version of the KKK (at the height of its power after the Civil War and for decades after that.)

The KKK wanted a return to white power and control in the South and was willing to use violence to obtain its goals. Did their efforts largely succeed? Yes. Am I proud of that and wish to see it repeated again and again? No. If the KKK had attacked the National Guard in Little Rock, Arkansas, would or should we have withdrawn and allowed the public schools there to remain segregated? I hope not.

Again, I realize the in the real world things are not that simple. But if, and perhaps this is a big IF, the Afghan people want us there and desire not to go back to rule by the Taliban, then it is important for us to do what we can. Are Afghani's dreams worth 5 NATO troops? 50? 5000? I don't know but they are worth something.

[daleo]

29. So, until we run out of soldiers then.

Or at least willing soldiers.

On edit - I am impressed that you are willing to die for the cause. Lots of people just say that.

[Amonester]

27. Bring the boys and girls back home!

Then let the Popular Republic of China 'deal' with the Talibans when their 'time' is 'due up next'...

F**k Harper and his bunch of CON-serv' a-thieves! :mad: