Killer's family comforted: Amish 'don't balance hurt with hate'

[Radio_Lady]

Thu, October 5, 2006
UPDATED: 2006-10-05 01:27:38 MST

Killer's family comforted: Amish 'don't balance hurt with hate'

By AP

NICKEL MINES, Pa. -- In most places, a deadly school shooting would bring demands for tighter gun laws and the victims' loved ones would have lashed out at the gunman's family or threatened to sue.

That's not the Amish way.

After five of their children were slain in a one-room schoolhouse, the Amish in this village are turning the other cheek, urging forgiveness of the killer. "They know their children are going to heaven. They know their children are innocent ... and they know that they will join them in death," said Gertrude Huntington, an expert on children in Amish society. "The hurt is very great," she said. "But they don't balance the hurt with hate."

In the aftermath of Monday's violence, the Amish are looking inward, relying on themselves, just as they have for centuries. They hold themselves apart from the modern world, and have as little to do with civil authorities as possible. Amish mourners have been going from home to home for two days to attend viewings for the victims, all little girls laid out in white dresses made by their families.

Typically, they are so crowded, "if you start crying, you've got to figure out whose shoulder to cry on," said Rita Rhoads, a Mennonite midwife who delivered two of the five slain girls. At some viewings, upwards of 1,000 to 1,500 people might visit a family's home to pay respects.

(snipped)

The Amish also reached out to the family of the gunman, Charles Roberts, 32, who committed suicide during the attack. A Roberts family spokesman said an Amish neighbour comforted the Roberts family after the shooting. "I hope they stay around here and they'll have a lot of friends and a lot of support," said Daniel Esh, 57, an Amish artist whose three grandnephews were in the school during the attack.

More at link:

http://calsun.canoe.ca/News/World/2006/10/05/1956188-sun.html

[Radio_Lady]

1. Oddest part of this sad story: Roberts claims he molested two relatives.

Apparently, there is no evidence or memory of that in the community.

AP story continues:

Although Roberts claimed to be haunted by the memory of molesting two relatives 20 years ago, the pair said it never happened.
State trooper Linette Quinn said, "both of them have no recollection of being sexually assaulted by Roberts.

"They were absolutely sure they had no contact with Roberts."

[Irreverend IX]

11. Weird.

Maybe he had a brain tumor or some sort of schizophrenia he was able to keep under wraps. Otherwise, it's hard to pin down a motive that makes sense for the guy.

[jseankil]

23. My money's on psychological repression. /nm

nm

[Skittles]

32. or they just don't remember

they were very young

[woo me with science]

37. Yes, forgetting, not repressing.

The concept of repression is not supported by science.

They likely forgot, or were young enough that they just didn't store the memory.

[deathdog]

42. Exactly

Lots of lives were fucked up by shrinks in the early to mid-90's who convinced people they had repressed memories. I actually have a friend who was a psychologist who bought this stuff. She ultimately realized that there was no science behind what she was doing, and got out of the field altogether. She then tried working in reconciliation of some families she had damaged. What a mess.

[woo me with science]

70. Wow, I'm so impressed with your friend.

To go back, admit what she had done, and try to make repairs took a great deal of courage on her part. There are too many therapists who do not have the courage to do that. Even the therapists who realize the harm that is still being done often remain silent, because they are reluctant to criticize the incompetence of other "professionals" or elicit the anger of the true believers.

There is still way too much of this garbage therapy going on. A lot of it now is taking place through fundamentalist Christian churches under the name of "theophostic counseling." And I hate to say it, but a lot of feminists have also contributed to the problem--many have been rigid about defending this garbage therapy because of the political third rail of not believing a woman who says she was abused.

The problem is also perpetuated by the fact that profit-minded insurance companies have so much control over health care access in this country. They would much rather save money by using therapists who come out of fly-by-night professional schools or master's level counseling programs than pay for therapy from someone who has actually been through a rigorous clinical training program that includes courses on human development, neuroscience, and memory.

The therapists who do this kind of work usually truly believe in what they are doing. Many self-select into the field after recovering memories in their own therapy. However, most of them have been trained with Freudian nonsense and pop psychology and have no ability to disciminate between the garbage research that is used to support these theories, and good science.

Please tell your friend that so many of us appreciate her integrity and courage to do what she did. I can't imagine how difficult that must have been for her, to admit having been wrong and try to correct it. She is obviously a credit to the profession.

[kestrel91316]

47. My money's on him being an undiagnosed, untreated paranoid

schizophrenic who imagined the whole thing. They can be very good at hiding signs of their illness. My mom was a pro at it.

[Pachamama]

62. The two relatives were only 3 and 5 at the time...chances are they don't

remember because of how young they were....atleast they don't remember "consciously"....subconsciously, and probably manifesting itself in other ways, they have suffered.

[wakeme2008]

2. There are I believe 5 girls still in the Hospital... I hope they

are OK and not brain damaged. :cry:

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ret5hd]

4. The killer wasn't Amish.

[Radio_Lady]

5. What was he? I was unaware of that, but then it's been a busy

couple of days. I believe the articles said he knew the area and lived a few blocks from the school.

Link to where??? to support you information, please...

Good night and good luck...

[Radio_Lady]

6. Perusing several articles since October 3rd, I could not find ANYTHING

about whether or not Charles Roberts was Amish.

Please support your information. I would appreciate it.

[DoctorMyEyes]

12. You couldn't find anything?

WTF?!? You mean you aren't sophisticated enough to be tipped off that he wasn't Amish by the part about him DRIVING a tanker truck for a living and driving his own TRUCK to the school after walking his own children to the BUS STOP?

Go figure!

[GoddessOfGuinness]

20. A DUer who is well-acquainted with Amish

posted, the other day, that there are less conservative Amish who do drive trucks.

Nevertheless, the killer was not Amish.

[hlthe2b]

24. I suspect they are confusing the Mennonites (who are less

averse to technology) with old order Amish....

[deathdog]

41. Amish do not drive trucks

Trust me. I have Amish relatives. I've lived in "Amish country" most of my life. There are plain Mennonites who drive, but the Amish don't. I always enjoy watching tourists gawking at some poor soul they perceive to be Amish...and then the shock when that backward Amish person gets in a car and drives away. Here's the news---s/he isn't Amish!!

Also, thought it's not a firm rule, the killer's surname was my first clue he wasn't Amish. Though others can, but rarely do, marry into the community, there are few obvious English surnames among the Amish. "Roberts" is not an Amish name. I'd been trying to find out, on Monday, if he was Amish. I knew the minute they released his name.

But no, the Amish don't drive trucks.

[kestrel91316]

52. OLD ORDER Amish don't have cars and don't drive any motorized

transportation, it's true. Beachy Amish can have cars, so presumably they can work at a job where they drive a truck. Old Order Mennonites are apparently like the Amish WRT no cars, but they do not shun.

Amish are BIG users of public transportation and they use private cab/limo services to travel distances, usually in small groups. There's a whole cottage industry of people who drive the Amish to locations unsuitable for buggy travel. So you will see them get into cars, but if they are driving, they are by definition not Old Order Amish.

[deathdog]

55. My point precisely

[Radio_Lady]

82. UPDATE: I am the OP and am certainly NOT pointing any fingers

at the Amish. In the middle of the night, when I posted the original story, I relied on other DUers to comment. My last post was just after 3 AM. Then, I finally fell asleep -- I find this thread very disturbing today.

I haven't been following the story this morning as I am packing for a trip to Florida.

If my early AM posts have caused ANYONE to think that I am prejudiced against the Amish or a bigot, I certainly did not intend to do that.

Thank you very much.

In peace,

Radio_Lady

[TallahasseeGrannie]

58. Will they ride in modern conveyances

if someone else is driving? On MSNBC there is a slide of a lot of Amish folks getting out of a van. Or do you think they were Mennonites?

[yellowcanine]

80. Amish will ride in cars, vans, etc. driven and owned by others.

A lot of Mennonites in Amish communities earn a decent living hauling Amish around. Amish will aslo travel on public transportation (buses and trains) but most do not fly in airplanes. On the other hand some Old Order Mennonites, who dress a lot like Amish and drive buggies, will ride in airplanes. It all gets very confusing.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

91. Hmmm. I don't drive or fly

but folks definitely haul me around. I like these Amish folks!

[Vidar]

106. I love your humor, TG.

[Radio_Lady]

84. DoctorMyEyes, I don't know why you have decided to claw at me.

I posted at 3:21 AM and 3:25 AM Pacific Time. I was not able to get as much information as I might have on this case. All I cited was the Canadian newspaper link and was not able to monitor the discussion after that time because I finally fell asleep. Please note that the original link did not mention whether or not the man was Amish.

Although I was born in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and have visited Amish country, I have no real acquaintance with the Amish and all of their various iterations. I worked with a man who was from Lancaster, Pennsylvania, and I reviewed the movie "Witness" in years gone by, but that's about it.

The whole story has advanced this morning, beyond what I could google in the middle of the night. Sorry if I miss the boat (er, the buggy) on this. It was unintentional, I assure you.

In peace,

Radio_Lady in Oregon

PS. TO ALL WHO READ THIS: October 5th is National Depression Screening Day in the United States. If you are experiencing depression symptoms, please seek help.

http://www.mentalhealthscreening.org/locator/NDSDmap.aspx

[hlthe2b]

26. Let's nip this in the bud...

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/10/04/D8KI1QVO1.html

"He certainly was very troubled, psychologically deep down, and was dealing with things that nobody else knew he was dealing with," Miller said. But he said Roberts, who was not Amish, did not appear to have anything against the Amish people.


This is a horrendous tragedy... the Amish were the victims... No, they, as a culture are not perfect, but let's stop blaming them for this tragedy that was visited upon them... PLEASE

[Mad_Dem_X]

67. Thank you for saying that

I'm getting tired of reading anti-Amish posts. Their culture has flaws like every one does; we should be focusing our attention on the horrible crime.

[Radio_Lady]

85. hlthe2b, thank you for posting this link. I appreciate it. n/t

[Sherman A1]

10. You could check probably any news report of the incident

something like AP, Yahoo, Reuters, CNN or even Fox. The shooter was a milk truck driver (who did pick up milk at the Amish Farms) that is assumed to have taken advantage of the complete lack of any security at the Amish School.

[Radio_Lady]

86. Sherman, I did post an AP article. It did not mention that the killer

was or was not Amish. I have not been able to attend to this thread, and it's clearly a case of "shoot the messenger."

After I posted, I managed to get just a couple of hours of sleep. As a broadcaster, mother, grandmother and liberal, I resent the fact that you made the assertion that "you could check probably any news report of the incident." That is untrue. This exchange leaves a very bad taste in my mouth. I don't like the way this thread developed at all this morning.

I feel you owe me an apology, at the very least.

[Sherman A1]

100. Since you are a broadcaster, I would think that you would understand

just how this "news thing" works and would have even more access than us mere mortals, so no I don't think any apology will be forthcoming. Ignore list most certainly.

[Radio_Lady]

101. I don't put anyone on an IGNORE list and never will. What for?

Sorry you didn't get what you wanted -- which is getting endless reactions from me.

I tried, couldn't edit a thoughtless comment; and explained my position in several other posts in this thread. It must be tough for you.... being so perfect and all..........................

You just have to watch out for so many slip-ups, right? Your problem, not mine.

I'm happy and packing for vacation. Good night and good luck!

Radio_Lady (what's for dinner?)

[hlthe2b]

17. I think a lot of people believe the Amish are far more isolated

geographically, than they really are. The killer was NOT Amish, but he lived nearby. The school appears to have been chosen, simply because it was close by. The gunman was a milk delivery man, who drove a truck.

I know you didn't mean it that way, but I cringed when you said the Amish weren't "smart" enough to recognize. While I have no reason to believe their society is less at risk of problems than ours, I can appreciate their culture and traditions. That they have been able to hold to their beliefs through an immense amount of change in the society around them and which is constantly pulling at them is pretty remarkable, IMO. I doubt they could do so, without being "smart."

[Kittycat]

39. Devout Fundie - on the radio last night...

I was picking up dinner last night, and listened to friends of the wife discuss that she held their weekly womens prayer group that morning. She said she was her normal self, and secure in god. They went on to say that they were devout christians and blah blah blah.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

72. The Church of Jerry Foulwell is what Jesus warned of

when he spoke about being wary of false prophets.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[theHandpuppet]

8. Get your facts straight before you toss around insults and prejudice

"The Amish mean well, but regrettably, they are not smart or sophisticated enough to have recognized this mentally ill young man..."

The killer was not of the Amish comunity, but OURS. I guess we weren't "smart or sophoisticated enough to have recognized this mentally ill young man" either.

Sheesh.

[Flaxbee]

46. Hey, Radio_Lady has been at DU for a loooong time, she

is a wonderful, fine person who perhaps misspoke about the "smart" thing - let's give our fellow DU'ers a bit of a break, and perhaps all of those in this thread who attacked her might want to do a little research yourself before piling on. OK?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

60. I interpretted her "smart" remark

as being "worldly." Which they obviously are not, or try not to be.

No matter how you look at it, this was an obscenity that just can't be explained.

[Radio_Lady]

83. I am sorry if I made anything any of you thought was a "smart" remark.

I certainly did not mean it that way. Thank you for the support here. For your information, I have struggled with clinical depression since I was a teenager and have nothing but compassion for both the perpetrator and the victims here.

The story is only a few days old and the original reports that I heard and read did not mention that the killer was not Amish. Or at least, that fact did not register with me.

If this young man was living close by to the Amish, and working for a milk delivery company, perhaps what I should have said was that SOMEONE, Amish or not -- and including his wife and other family -- might have made more of an effort to get him help. What I read was that this killer was despondent over the death of his small newborn daughter, who died several months ago.

As the mother of a baby girl who was stillborn in 1960, who suffered with postpartum depression for several months and had to be hospitalized, I really resent that anyone here would have the impression that I am anti-Amish or in any way tried to accuse the Amish in any way. Clearly, the LBN forum is strident and emotional. I'm used to posting in General Discussion and The DU Lounge and rarely venture here -- perhaps with good reason.

Thank you for listening.

In peace,

Radio_Lady in Oregon

[TallahasseeGrannie]

90. I meant "smart"

as a quote from your post, not as "smart remark" as in sass or whatever.

Anyway, I knew what you meant.

[Radio_Lady]

92. Yes, I know. I was unable to edit the comment and I apologized for it

as soon as I noticed it, several hours later.

What I wanted to imply was a more general comment about the residents and/or people not understanding the mentally ill... and I have struggled with clinical depression since I was a teenager. Ironically, October 5th is National Depression Screening Day, and look how this developed into my somehow being bigoted against the Amish community.

However, the bloodletting continues and I was asked to leave and go with the Freepers. What's up with that?

Unfortunate. I wrote something quickly when I was half asleep and then couldn't change it. By the way, sometimes the editing feature that locks a post into place after just an hour -- can be a problem. I know it's technologically impossible in such a big community to allow authors to edit their own work -- anytime -- but I would have been able to remove the offending comment myself!

In peace,

Radio_Lady

[TallahasseeGrannie]

95. Maybe it is just me,

but I can't tell you how often I promise myself never to read or post on DU again, but then here I am! Sometimes it is brutal and I'm not quite sure what good it does me.

Take care of yourself.

[sybylla]

16. Every bit of land that surrounds my property is owned by Amish

with the exception of one parcel. But I'm not Amish. They don't live in secluded compounds David Koresh style. They live among us. They are my neighbors. They are good neighbors who share the produce from their garden with me, exchange treats with me at x-mas, watch over my property when I'm gone as I do theirs. I"ve gone to two of their children's wedding feasts and attended a x-mas service at their church where their school children sang beautiful hymns accapella.

The Amish may consider themselves a closed society, but that doesn't mean they don't interact with the rest of the world or that they live in some walled off area. They live among us. There are some extreme sects where the women aren't allowed to speak to non-Amish (one of these sects lives about 15 miles from me) but more often than not, they recognize we are all part of this world. They may look so much different than us, but largely their lives are little different than our grandparents or great-grandparents lived 100 years ago.

[hlthe2b]

19. That is a lovely (and very true) description, Sybylla...

Thank you. You have some wonderful neighbors and must certainly feel lucky.

[sybylla]

36. I feel very lucky!

They are good people and live a very peaceful and family-oriented lifestyle. We would do well to live a little more as they do.

[Ex Lion Tamer]

22. Makes me want to move near you.

Beautiful description.

[sybylla]

38. One of the best parts is that on a quiet Sunday morning

sitting in the sun on my back deck, I can hear the sound of horses pulling carriages as much as a half-mile away.

The worst part is that I essentially live in the middle of nowhere and there is no pizza delivery. If I want an easy out for supper, I have to drive 10 miles to town to pick it up.

[yellowcanine]

81. What, no pizza delivery by buggy? Sounds like a business opportunity.

I'll bet a lot of people would pay extra to have their pizza delivered by buggy. Might have to modify that "within 30 minutes or the pizza is free" though.

[shrike]

25. My sister's neighbors are Amish

This summer we went biking in Amish country. Stopped at one farm, and the fellow was selling wrought-iron trellises he made himself. The woman was selling Amish pies, taking advantage of the summer tourists. Very sweet people, very friendly. My heart aches for the Amish of Pennsylvania.

[sybylla]

40. Mine, too!

:cry:

[all.of.me]

28. living lightly on the land

If we all did that, or at least practiced a fraction of their lifestyle, we would be in less of an environmental mess than we are today.

[sybylla]

43. That's true in a lot of ways

but we do have a problem with the seriously strict sects refusing to put holding tanks under their privies. And my neighbors are one of the more liberal sects so they have tractors and electricity. They farm pretty much like everyone else does - using herbicides, pesticides and hormones in their cattle.

So not all of their practices are any kinder to the environment. That said, they are ahead of the game on reducing, reusing and recycling. They never have any noticeable garbage to get rid of.

[deathdog]

45. Many of us Anabaptists are deeply upset at the many Amish

and Mennonites who run horrible puppy mills.

They are good and bad. Like everyone else.

[kestrel91316]

54. I suspect there are many horrible puppy mills run by NON-Amish, too.

[deathdog]

56. Indeed there are

I just don't feel embarassed by them because I don't feel identified with them. As an Anabaptist, I'm ashamed of the mills run by my co-religionists.

[kestrel91316]

71. Are you Mennonite?

[deathdog]

108. Yeah, Mennonite Church

You know--the ones who dress like everyone else :)

[kestrel91316]

110. lol, I think we have a batch of your sort of Mennos out in Pasadena.......

Can't imagine any Old Order or Old Colony Mennonites or even the cape-and-cap-wearing types in So Cal............

I have Amish in my family about 6 generations back, lol. And a Brethren preacher since then.

We come from the Troyers of Holmes Co, OH. There are a LOT of them there.

[deathdog]

111. I don't know anyone in Pasadena, but I have friends in Fresno

There's a surprisingly large Menno community in Fresno, and that area. I've been to Fresno Pacific University for conflict-resolution trainings. I'm from Indiana, myself, my family comes from the Bontrager and Mast lines. But by a series of non-Mennos marrying into the family, I ended up with a not-very-Menno last name. I have relatives in nearly every Mennonite or Amish or Dunkard tradition on the planet. I even dabbled in the Hutterites for a while. But I lack the discipline for it. I own a couple of headcoverings, though, and often wondered how people would react if I started wearing 'em. My partner would be the first to freak out!

[kestrel91316]

112. I have a Mast WAAAAYYYY back in the 1700s I think - my

mom's cousin did a mountain of genealogy research.

I think the head coverings (white caps) are cool, lol. I would love to wear long dresses and have long hair under a cap and such, but it would be horribly impractical, and uncomfortable in the heat, and besides, I'm not any sort of Christian, technically, so it would be silly. And the ties on the cap hanging down would be an undesirable thing at work, being as I am a cat vet...........sort of like how I can't wear hoop earrings because cats can grab them.......

:crazy:

[deathdog]

44. So well-said! Thank you.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

61. This event has to have hit you very hard, then.

[sybylla]

75. I'm a mile from my neighborhood Amish school

I know the two teachers there and many of the young children are the grandchildren of my neighbors. And many of them have relatives across the country including in Lancaster County.

I am deeply troubled by what happened. But not surprised, unfortunately. My neighbors and other sects in the area suffer regularly from hate crimes - things as small as vandalism to more dangerous threats like running buggies off the road to the disgusting actions of a few cruel bastards who have raped their young daughters when they are caught alone walking down the road.

Granted this was not a hate crime by all accounts, but to hear of violence against them is not surprising.

[woo me with science]

35. Counselors are not magic.

I hate the assumption that people will "need" a counselor in order to go on.

People have survived terrible experiences throughout history by relying on their own resilience and the love and support of family members and friends.

Some people find counselors helpful, but the notion that a particularly severe tragedy makes counseling NECESSARY is just wrong. It is this type of thinking that has allowed the industry of psychology to take root in lots of places where it has no business, and to TEACH people that they are helpless in the absence of professional support.

We now have research beginning to indicate that the practice of sending "grief counselors" to tragedy sites in order to debrief the victims may actually cause more harm than good (cf. Gerald Rosen's new book on PTSD research). Pushing people to focus on the incident may actually strengthen the traumatic response and make it more likely to persist--you may be REINFORCING the PTSD response.

Trauma therapy as it is practiced today by a lot of professionals is based on a lot of very flawed assumptions about how the mind works, that may actually do more harm than good. Even in 2006, therapy in many areas, and certainly in the case of trauma, is often based on psychoanalytic theories (e.g., "repression," "catharsis," "working through") that have no basis in science.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

64. Wow

you have said something I've thought for many, many years. I was involved in one of the first school shootings. There was a murder on my campus and the gunman ran through the building shooting randomly. We had a grief counselor show up uninvited the next day. She called herself "Dr." although her PhD was in nursing. (I know that is kosher, but it was misleading) She was in a white coat with a stethoscope. She was more a grief vampire than anything else and eventually our principal asked her to leave. But a few days later a state crisis team came for debriefing and had us relive the experience which brought on my first ever panic attack, and I had them for years after that. I have always resented that and felt I would have healed better on my own with the support of family and friends. Whenever I hear that grief counselors are on their way to some school to help with news of a death, I resent it.

[woo me with science]

74. "grief vampires"

What a perfect label. Your experience is a scathing example of the harm that comes to people from what passes for mental health care for trauma. What a travesty. What malpractice.

People out there don't realize how deep the cancer is that is infecting the whole trauma industry today. I think the country woke up a little when all the satanic ritual abuse and repressed memory nonsense started getting debunked, but you can still go to women's centers and counseling centers all over the nation and find staff who believe in all the myths surrounding trauma treatment--who encourage people to relive and reexperience traumas ad nauseum.

It is lucrative. It creates endless opportunities for intervention (for example, grief counselors at every tragic event). It often creates long-term, dependent clients. And it is much more interesting (at least in a Geraldo Rivera or Jerry Springer sort of way) to many therapists than dry cognitive-behavioral therapy or problem-solving therapies that might actually have some benefit associated with them.

Paul McHugh raised a huge stink at Johns Hopkins when he became Director of Psychiatry there and began pushing to ensure that psychiatric treatments there were based on good empirical research demonstrating their effectiveness. The folks dealing in trauma there went absolutely nuts. They didn't want any part of it. The grief vampires (I love that term--may I use it sometime?) have their tentacles deep in the system, and it will take a long time to root them out completely. It is happening, slowly, but too many people are still being hurt by this garbage.

Thanks for telling your story here. I have been collecting similar ones informally, and I appreciate your describing your experience. I am really sorry for what happened that day, and that the grief vampires made it even worse.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

79. I will be happy to supply you with

names, dates, details, if you need them for your work. (In PM) This experience took a year from me and led me to a very dark place. It took about five years to fully recover and even today I keep a little white pill "just in case."

[hlthe2b]

96. You really voiced my concern as wel TG and I'm sorry to hear

of your experience. I work with lots of smaller local health departments and have observed that they have many "former" mental health counselors (of one type or another) that they are not employing as mental health counselors in their own programs for whatever reason (and are not currently licensed). Yet, these same individuals end up on the emergency response mental health teams... It makes me very wary, as the few I've come to know to any degree do not seem totally on top of their own mental health issues, if you follow my drift....:shrug:

[TallahasseeGrannie]

98. Having left a few therapists

because they were "crazier" than I was, I understand!

I'm not sure I know just how to proceed in these sorts of situations. I guess just let it proceed naturally. Everybody deals with it differently. Personally I don't think there needs to be intervention until/unless a disorder erupts later.

As far a grief counseling in schools, in the cases of the "routine" kids lost through illness, accident...or as in my district recently, working teachers..well, I think a good teacher, guidance counselor, etc., is all that is needed. That and maybe a few parents visiting. The huge events like Columbine..those schools should close and the healing should happen at home and maybe church.

[hlthe2b]

94. It may have more to do with the lack of standardized "methods"

and qualifications... In the stress of the moment, so many with any mental health training at all, truly want to help. But, it is not clear that they all are "equally qualified or equally appropriate" to the task.

Even the methods employed seem all over the map and not systematically studied/validated in terms of outcomes... It may be another example of "well meaning," but "sometimes harmful..." or at least not always helful..

[bling bling]

102. Good point.

Finding a "good" mental health care professional these days at any level (counselor, psychologist, psychiatrist) can be as difficult as anything.

I have been profoundly disappointed with my own experiences in trying to find someone to help with depression. I have been outrageously misdiagnosed by doctors who insist they *know* what's wrong with me after a 45 minute first session. PTSD was one diagnosis along with a prescription for no less than 4 medications. I swear to god I've never had a traumatic experience in my life. And besides that I had explained to him that I had been treated for depression previously so I *knew* what my familiar symptoms were. My jaw dropped to the floor in absolute disbelief when the doctor insisted my symptoms were more like PTSD than depression -- even though they WEREN'T!!! I don't have nightmares for one thing, I'm not afraid of people or paranoid to trust them and I told him all this but it was like he wasn't even listening.

One doctor before him said I don't have depression but bi-polar. I've never had a manic episode in my entire life, ever. But she justified her diagnosis by saying she'd had one patient who was bi-polar for 30 years before having a manic episode. WTF??!! I tried to go over the symptom list with her so that we could break it down why I don't have bi-polar but she was absolutely dead set on her diagnosis and wasn't ABOUT to have me prove to her how wrong she was. Instead she made me sign a waiver because I wasn't accepting her diagnosis. I was so infuriated and upset that I contacted an attorney but there was nothing I could do, I didn't have a case.

I actually did find a pretty normal doctor who treated me properly and I did very well under his care but naturally our insurance one day suddenly changed the company they subcontract behavioral health to and this doctor wasn't in that network.

My experience with counselors and psychologists hasn't been successful either for various reasons. There was something not right about them but I can't put my finger on it. They were just people who were trained in counseling or psychology and were book-smart but not very good at genuinely connecting with me as a person. It's hard to explain.

The only people I have felt completely comfortable around and felt were very good at connecting with people were some MSW's I worked with as an intern. They never made anyone feel intimidated and never put off a sense that they were superior in any way simply because they had knowledge about psychology. I definitely think that if I ever went the counseling route again for depression I would seek out an MSW next time.

Anyway, the bottom line is that it's easy to tell others to seek help or to get themselves counseling, but that simple sounding solution can actually turn into a maddening and infuriating experience or worse. Thankfully I have had enough experience with the mental health field in general to not allow myself to fall prey to the mindset of "well, (s)he's a doctor so (s)he must know better than me." Had I been more naive or impressionable I'd be sitting here right now taking god knows how many mind altering medications for some erroneous diagnosis.

[kestrel91316]

49. The killer wasn't Amish. He was a milk truck driver, so he had a lot of

contact with and knowledge of the Amish community, who are largely dairy farmers.

It's quite possible he was Mennonite. They are the more liberal version of Anabaptists.

[Hoping4Change]

53. The killer wasn't Amish. He wasn't a member of the community.

The only thing unsophisticated is your unsubstantiated opinion that the Amish aren't capable of sophisticated reasoning . Your lack of reasoning skills is apparent by the fact you clearly have arrived at opinions without having read the facts.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

57. He lived nearby but

wasn't Amish, I don't believe.

[roguevalley]

63. I just heard that he told them to pray he didn't kill them. I also just

heard that the thirteen year old stepped forward and asked him to shoot her first. These lovely little children. RIP, my darlings. Its all very sad for everyone involved.

[CBHagman]

68. I would hold off on any such conclusions.

Number one, news stories suggest that Charles Roberts's own wife didn't even suspect anything. Roberts was a milkman and would have worked in the wee hours of the morning, so it's not as though the Amish community would have intimate knowledge of his state of mind. Moreover, they do keep separate from "the English" (i.e., non-Amish), so I doubt they would have known of his weaponry.

What I assume you and I agree on, RL, is that this horrible event is a call to better diagnose disorders before tragedy occurs. I really can't speak to what drove the killer, but perhaps we can better understand the mind-set of such attackers and perhaps prevent more such events in the future.

[benEzra]

77. He apparently didn't have much of an arsenal...

The Amish mean well, but regrettably, they are not smart or sophisticated enough to have recognized this mentally ill young man -- how could that be? He was amassing an arsenal of weapons and tools.

He apparently didn't have much of an arsenal. Reports are claiming that he had a plain-jane 9mm pistol, a 12-gauge hunting shotgun, and a .30-06 hunting rifle, which is about as mundane as you can get, plus a few boxes of ammunition for the above. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[liberal N proud]

9. Maybe the Christofascist should take a lesson

The Amish live about the truest form of Christianity there is. None of this eye for an eye crap. Hate gets you know where.

[sugapablo]

13. Indeed...

...I am often impressed by how the Amish seem to actually live the lessons of some guy you might have heard of...Jesus.

Yeah, Jesus probably doesn't care whether you own a TV set or drive a car, but these people TRULY practice the ideals of non-violence, compassion, forgiveness, community, taking care of your neighbors, etc.

The rest of Christian America could learn a few things from these guys.

In the 1950s when an Amish man was shot in Ohio, the family refused to press charges against the shooter. The state went ahead with charges anyways, and put him on death row. The Amish community petitioned the Governor to have his death sentence repealed and were successful.

Impressive.

[sendero]

14. Exactly...

.. the Amish and the Quakers are the true examples of what Jesus's Christianity is all about.

I don't know if I could be big enough to really feel forgiveness at this point, but sitting here not being in their situation I know it is the right thing to do.

Believe me, the family of the killer is suffering as well. This whole thing probably came as big a shock to them as anyone.

[elehhhhna]

30. uh, christ didn't let the older boys molest their sisters...

or did I miss that part?

[hedgehog]

31. How sweet of you to mention that.

So there are criminals amongst the Amish just as there are in every other group of human beings. Big deal. I bet there is at least one jerk in the Dalia Lama's entourage, too. Personally, I think it is patronizing to treat the Amish as some sort of Disney elves come to life. At the same time, I have to respect them as a group for their efforts to live out their convictions. Their call for forgiveness and understanding is an example to us all.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

66. Only the Amish do that?

Who knew?

[LostinVA]

87. go girl

I'm still reeling from some of the responses in my own thread!!!

[LostinVA]

15. oh Jeebus

[jonnyblitz]

59. my sentiments exactly..

no further comment. :eyes:

[dipsydoodle]

18. I couldn't possibly

have expressed that better myself.

[Andrushka]

21. Bingo

Very well-said.

[MissMillie]

29. There have been some here that could take a lesson

I remember not long ago I said something about hating for someone who has hurt you deeply (in that case a criminal who killed a family member) and I got questioned on it.

I think it's normal to be angry, and I think it's even normal to hate a little, but I also think that beyond finding justice it's important to remember that criminals act out of hate, and by responding in kind you put yourself on the same footing as the criminal.

[bloom]

48. In this instance - the hate question is key

The killer wrote in one of his notes, "I am filled with so much hate, hate toward myself hate toward God and unimaginable emptyness..."

It seems that hate - probably toward himself - but also toward the world at large is what drove the killer to do what he did. He seemed to be able to recognize it. The Amish seem to be able to recognize that hate and anger are not what they want to be about, either.

I admire the extremes to which the Amish take their pacifist beliefs.

And I recognize that the Amish are not perfect - I doubt that any of them would suggest that they are, either. One problem is that the whole Christian (and Jewish, and Muslim) belief system is based on the patriarchy. But beyond that - I think that simplicity is a good idea. And pacifism.

The Amish are successful at rejecting a lot about our society which a lot of us have problems with. The corporate, violent culture that is America - for the most part.

[philosophie_en_rose]

76. Actions speak louder than words.

I admire the Amish for their forgiving society, but it is simply not true that an angry or even hateful mother of a murdered child is on the same footing as a child killer.

Criminals do not always act out of hate, and many are not violent at all. Many act out of illness, necessity, or other reasons. People are complex.

But violent criminals, for the most part, act out of a need to dominate or control. It has nothing to do with hate. In fact, they often think they love their victims, especially in the case of child killers. In other cases, they don't even know the victims - the crime is a crime of opportunity.

Actions speak louder than words. Hating a child killing pedophile is not the same as murdering little girls in school - not in any way.

Secondary victims (family, friends) are not on the same footing as murderers. No matter what they feel, they are entitled and justified in those emotions.

Comparing a violent crime to some alleged thought crime is nonsensical and insulting.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

65. If we were all Amish

we'd have a lot less dead in the Middle East, it appears.

Perhaps there is greater strength in forebearance and stoicism than revenge.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

73. Revenge will not bring those poor children back to life.

The Amish are wise enough to recognize that acting on hatred and anger only serves to hurt themselves as well as those around them.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

78. And I think that is probably the hardest

lesson to learn in this life.

There just are no words for that situation. Although I've spewed a few..none are adequate.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

93. I can't imagine how difficult it will be for them...

but I'm glad they have such a close-knit, supportive community to help them through this.

I don't even know these people, yet I find myself crying every time I think of this horrible thing that has happened to them.
You're right...There are no words. Only tears.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

97. This one has hit me especially hard

and it is probably just the symbolism of a people of another time victimized. I keep thinking of those babies in their little white caps and I sometimes yearn for simpler times (yes, I understand the Amish are just human) but yet this one hit home. I'm a visual person, and ...

Well, you know...

[GoddessOfGuinness]

99. I know...

:hug:

[Vox Acerbus]

27. ...

Let's not bash the Amish here. (Re: the ill-informed "not smart or sophisticated" comment.)

The killer was not a part of the Amish community. As someone has pointed out already, he was one of "ours" so perhaps we are the ones who are not smart or sophisticated.

I am fortunate enough to have spent time closely with a couple of Amish families, thanks to my Godmother who quilts actively and learned with these families how to quilt.

The people I met were very witty, smart and sophisticated. They were kind and well-read. They were also very generous and non-judgmental. They were also fantastic cooks, and the memory of meals around a table burdened with food, with absolutely no distractions to interfere with our conversation, is quite pleasant.

We could all learn something from the Amish. They may not be perfect, but just because they set themselves apart from the rest of us doesn't mean that they're simple or unsophisticated. And the Amish people I knew also weren't judgmental at all, they just lived a different life than us and acknowledged that we made different choices.

[Radio_Lady]

89. Vox Acerbus, I made the comment in the middle of the night while

half asleep. I apologize for that entry, as it was clearly not what I intended. I am unable to edit it now. I hope you understand.

See my other entries. However, I am not happy that some are telling me I belong in Freeperville!

Thank you for your more lucid comments.

In peace,

Radio_Lady

[Kablooie]

33. If they have strongly held values and earnestly try to live by them ...

I have nothing but respect for them.

They have an absolute right ot hold their own values and if they don't impose them on others, peace be with them.

The Christian fundamentalists also have a right to believe they way they do.
The problem comes when they try to force others to adopt their beliefs.

[kwolf68]

34. To actually not want to take up the act of revenge

Speaks volumes to me and the example given by the Amish community is one the rest of the world would do well to learn.

What happens when a white kid is killed by a man? Capital punishment NOW. Burn the bastard. If the killer is black it gets worse. What happens if a shark attacks a kid? Start a witch-hunt to kill all sharks off the coast.

Our society is a violent society that where we use revenge as some sort of blood lust. A senseless death (such as these) isn't responded to with perspective and introspection, but with a seeming desire to enlist the "militia" to go kill kill kill. Sometimes I think we enjoy death so we can enact our vigilante' justice and serve retribution.

The example by these Amish people is so wonderful it just showcases the non-Amish's communities own severe deficiencies.

[ArmchairMeme]

50. Intrusion

It was our society that intruded into the Amish community. The horrific crime was commited by a person outside the Amish community.

We, our society, could learn a great deal from the way the Amish are handling this crime to them.

They do not balance hurt with hate. I find that to be such a great thing to learn from. They strive for and practice forgiveness. How strong of them to practice foregiveness in the face of the magnitude of this crime toward them.

They turn inward to bury their children with love knowing that they are going to be with God.

Our society also intruded upon their community with the media coverage of the "event" prying into their faces with questions. They choose to separate themselves from modern ways but, we cannot understand and have to point cameras into their faces.

I saw the view on t.v. of the schoolhouse from the air and saw all of the trash that was left on the ground. I remembered my visit to Amish country in Lancaster County and how beautifully neat their farms were. No trash by the side of the road. We brought trash to their yard!

We could learn great deal from the manner in which they have handled our intrusion - through forgiveness.

Can we understand that level of humility?

[LostinVA]

88. No, the shooter was part of the Amish community

He just wasn't Amish. The Amish don't live off by themselves in (as Torchthewitch said) "Amish Town."

[Bake]

51. Have to say I admire the Amish community's response

I couldn't do it. I'd have wanted to kill the sonofabitch myself. With my bare hands. And I claim to be a follower of Christ.

This thread got a little off-topic, as to the sophistication of the Amish people. I think they must be a lot more advanced than many of us (myself included), who could not practice the kind of forgiveness they have demonstrated.

Bake

[CBHagman]

69. I felt extremely humbled by their response as well.

Given that I often have a long memory even for slights, I feel totally unable to reach the state of openness and faith that the Amish community has obviously achieved. Hatred and grudges obviously hold us all prisoner, but many of us take a long, long time to release them.

The fact that the Amish reached out to the Roberts family was also remarkable and a sign of grace. Can you imagine how the wife and children are feeling? This approach by the Amish could do much to heal the entire community, the Roberts family included.

[Rowdyboy]

104. Their response has made me choke up....The are "real" Christians

I wish I could exhibit 1/4 their faith and class.

[beyurslf]

103. I always think I am an open minded person who wants to follow some

higher reasoning of the law. But when I hear about adults going into schools and killing kids, my first thoughts are about the best way to torture/maime/punish that killer.
They are simply amazing that they can forgive and reach out like that.

[Nevernose]

105. Actual, real, Christians. Wow.

A rare sight.

Anyone who can take that kind of attitude in that kind of horrific tragedy, no matter how weird they may seem to us, is deserving of our admiration.

Perhaps Gandhi would have had a different view of Christians if he'd known a few of these people.

SO many people forget that Christianity is about so much more than an afterlife -- it's about forgiveness and humility, and treating others better than you yourself have been treated.

[Vidar]

107. Well said.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

109. It's nice to see someone else realize that a criminal's family

is, in the vast majority of cases, as much a victim as the ones the criminal shot/robbed/beat/whatever. Bravo.