Protestors Rush Minutemen (at Columbia University - NYC)

[KurtNYC]

Protestors took the stage minutes after Jim Gilchrist, founder of the Minuteman Project, came to the microphone in Roone Arledge Auditorium Wednesday night, sparking a chaotic brawl involving more than 20 students, other attendees, and guests.

Two students in the International Socialist Organization unfurled a yellow banner reading, "No human being is illegal!" which prompted other protestors to rush the stage. Gilchrist supporters then clamored on stage while the speakers were ushered out of the auditorium.
...
During a long pause, one audience member shouted, "In Spanish please!" which brought on an enormous wave of stomping feet and applause from the audience. Stewart countered that "one of the requirements of citizenship is that you speak English," before he was completely drowned out by the noise of the audience. Many attendees stood up and turned their backs on the speaker in protest and began chanting "wrap it up."


http://media.www.columbiaspectator.com/media/storage/paper865/news/2006/10/05/News/Protestors.Rush.Minutemen-2333693.shtml?sourcedomain=www.columbiaspectator.com&MIIHost=media.collegepublisher.com

Video and more juicy details at link.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

1. That's great!

Personally, I think they should bring back tarring and feathering.

Too bad there weren't any pies.

[whistle]

2. The Minutemen are known as the neocon gestapo a private army

...which is being given more and more power

[Catchawave]

4. Wasn't Tim McVeigh a member ?

Or was our little homegrown terrorist working alone ?

[FastHorizon]

41. McVeigh was executed in 2001

This project started last year.

[mom cat]

3. Go Columbia!

[rodeodance]

82. nice to see.

[pampango]

5. I love it when we stop people from ----talking.

Romero (CC '07 and president of the Chicano Caucus) released a statement late Wednesday from the executive board of the Caucus. "We feel that it is important to discuss and bring to light important issues concerning immigration, though they should be done in a peaceful manner," it said. "While we do not agree with Mr. Gilchrist and his organization's views, we respect everyone's right to freedom of speech and regret that his opinion was not heard."

When one can't win the argument of ideas (which is the position the Republicans usually find themselves in), they often think it is time to shut down the opportunity for the our side to speak. When we can win the argument of ideas (because our ideas are better), it is stupid to look immature and insecure by preventing the other (stupid) side from speaking.

Free speech is for people with whom I agree. :sarcasm:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

8. lol

:nopity:

It's like those horrible thugs who show up to protest every time the KKK wants to have an innocent march.

[pampango]

10. Show up to protest the KKK - Most excellent endeavor.

Been there, done that in Chicago (thought ignoring them and denying them publicity might have been a better strategy that day). Showing up to protest the Minutemen is also be a most excellent endeavor, but denying them the right to be heard, not so excellent.

Who's next of our list of groups or people that should not be allowed to speak and what happens if we don't agree on a group?

[Donnachaidh]

13. perhaps you should ask the MSM that question

They seem to be doing a wonderful job of ignoring important issues.

[pampango]

16. Agreed. n/t

[MnFats]

27. as a journo i tend to agree....free speech is free speech..however..

...it's not like these lunatics are 'silenced' because they got shouted down at columbia.....they have plenty of media access to voice their views etc.....

[Toots]

61. Pretty soon you just get tired of crap and put a stop to it

They can still speak just not to that particular crowd. Those people don't want to hear it. Why do you wish to force them to listen?

[pampango]

62. If I don't want to hear a particular point of view,

I am usually able to stay away from the room or park where that point of view is being expressed. If the people in the room were forced to be there and listen to the Minutemen, then they have a very valid grievance.

If, on the other hand, I wanted to stop someone form expressing a particular point of view, then I might seek out the appropriate room or park from which to suppress their speech. In that way I could stop any group from speaking to any particular crowd at any time. I don't like hearing certain people and groups speak, Ken Blackwell comes to mind immediately, but I don't attempt to take away his microphone. Heck the more he speaks, the more people know about him and the lower his poll numbers go.

[onenote]

63. incredibly stupid argument

Those people don't want to hear it? No one in that audience wanted to hear it? If they didn't want to hear it, don't show up. Preventing others from hearing it...not so good.

[conservdem]

80. This seems like it was more than protesting.

If this conduct would be wrong if a Dem was speaking at a conservative forum, then its wrong in the reverse.

[Bridget Burke]

14. I'm glad the president of the Chicano Caucus took the high road.

But I can understand why some students objected to a hate group using their university's facilities.

I wonder what the Minutemen were going to say that we haven't heard before?

[proud2BlibKansan]

6. Awesome!

Sound like some smart kids.

[patrick t. cakes]

7. beautiful

absolutly beautiful.
the "minute men" couldnt guard a stage
let alone a border.

and whats with that scott guy saying conservatives
would never act that uncivil or whatever he spewed...
...no, conservatives would just drop bombs and bypass the debate.

[gratuitous]

9. Hit me like a ton of bricks

If the Minutemen are serious, why can't they defend a simple stage? How much more complicated is it to defend hundreds of miles of border?

[pampango]

17. The idea of a border fence is about as stupid an idea

as there is. But I don't want anyone telling me that I have no right to speak unless I can defend the stage I am speaking from. Is it ironic that they couldn't defend the stage they were on? Yeah! Is it sad that they (or you or I) would have to defend our right to speak? Yeah!

[gratuitous]

21. I didn't say anything about their right to speak

I wonder why you brought that up?

[LostinVA]

25. Me too

[pampango]

30. My bad. Then we agree. n/t

[SlavesandBulldozers]

47. they have a right to speak. they also have the right to defend themselves

it was just a bonus that they got their asses kicked. Goddamnit i love this country!

[cosmicdot]

19. re conservatives would never act uncivil

wonder what page in history would Scott like a lesson?


Miami's Rent-a-Riot, the stolen election of 2000


nothing like a little sabotage of democracy trying to shut down counting of votes in the United States of America ... maybe not toooooo uncivil ... possibly treasonous



Do conservative institutions count in determining uncivil acts?

I'm thinking of photos where police are beating Americans over the head while demonstrating for civil rights, better working conditions, a peaceful world, etc.



etc.

[KurtNYC]

22. Yeah Scott apparently did not see the women getting kicked

by preppy chicken hawks while they were on the ground at the 2004 GOP convention.

[thecrow]

11. Wouldn't it be neat at a Smirk or Cheney event

oh.... nevermind

[rodeodance]

12. i have had enough with the polite stuff-time to drown them out.

[pampango]

20. That's what I'm talking about. Drown them out.

Wait! OK, the KKK and the Minutemen - Drown them out! What about the next group? Do we vote on whether to drown them out or can I get just together some people who think like me and drown out whoever I want?

[KurtNYC]

23. Have you seen any liberals on Fox News? CNN? and the others

I can't imagine you really think that RWers are the ones being "drowned out" in this country. Jefferson said "Freedom of the Press belongs to those that own one" and we don't seem to own any major media outlets in this country.

The Minutemen came to Columbia to provoke this and insult millions of hardworking Americans. The succeeded only on the first part.

[pampango]

28. I didn't realize that I had left the impression that I thought that only..

RWers are being "drowned out" in this country. There are several Christian colleges in our area that don't invite liberals to speak and many other examples.

I am glad that Columbia invited the Minutemen to speak, not because I agree with them (my wife is from the Philippines and I believe that immigration is good for our country), but because in college you should learn that there are all kinds of people in this country and they all have the right to speak.

To paraphrase Jefferson "Freedom of speech belongs to those with a voice." I hope he was never quoted as saying "Until you all have a printing press, allow freedom of speech only to those with whom you agree."

[KurtNYC]

34. They spoke, they provoked and they got a reaction

which is more than will happen for today's massive protest at the U.N. -- there won't be any reaction from the Right because the MSM will not say one word about it. At least "drowning out" someone who btw had a powered P.A. system is a dialog.

[DemBums]

32. Facists aren't supposed to be heard. They are to be squashed ...

like an insect.

These folks don't simply have a respectful differing opinion, they have a fascist agenda.

The irony about fascism is that usually one must use its very methods in order to rid onself of the offending behavior. Fascism is a disease, (a disease of the mind,) and quite often an inoculation is a small amount of the disease itself.

"Up against the wall, motherfucker! ..."

[pampango]

37. Look, I am for as much immigration as we can get in this country.

Indeed, I have argued (sorry - had a difference of opinion) with several DUers who sincerely feel that illegal immigration hurts American blue collar workers, in terms of lowering wage scales and taking jobs.

How do you determine when someone has crossed the line from having a respectful differing opinion to being a fascist who is in need of fascist behavior modification? You may know more about the Minutemen than I do, in which case I will come off as the softie liberal being nice to everyone. But what if they only patrol the desert with radios to report suspicious activity to the Border Patrol? Is that so different than the Neighborhood Watch in my little town, in which people call the police if they see something suspicious?

If they really are fascists, let 'em speak. Nothing like exposing a bad idea to the light of day. Don't give them a chance to play the persecution card.

[seriousstan]

40. Yes, we must be fascists to defeat fascists. Defend free speech by

eliminating any opposing speech. I get it.

[patrick t. cakes]

43. theyve been speaking for quite some time

piss on um.

[patrick t. cakes]

38. damn right!!

heard enough, seen enough, been effected by enough.
the kids got it right.

hey scott,,was the boston tea party, uncivil, unintellectual??

[rman]

15. Rainbow Family Peaceably Schools Police, Dissolves Roadblock

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hAx5G0I9mU&eurl=

[davidinalameda]

18. let them speak

the more people that hear them spew their garbage, the less people will support them

and the kids who fought certainly didn't help matters; just made the bigots look like martyrs

[pampango]

31. We have a winner. Bad ideas should be exposed to the light of day. n/t

[patrick t. cakes]

39. theyve had their light of day

id rather hear the kids..
the "uncivil" liberal socialist kids.

much agreed, fascist need to be squashed.

[The Onyx Key]

44. Really? And who is to decide who are the fascists? n/t

[slackmaster]

46. Once someone starts quashing freedom of speech, they become

the Fascists.

[patrick t. cakes]

48. right ,who decides

the kkk is racist?
obvious is obvious.

im still with the kids.

[slackmaster]

45. Give dwickham a "Bravo Zulu"

Right on.

[VegasWolf]

24. Next target, Ann Coulter! nt

[habitual]

26. As a new yorker, let me say this to the minutemen

GET THE HELL OUT OF NYC, you're not welcome here.

[Brian Stevens]

74. We can always blast them out. nt

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mitchtv]

33. Been to uptown Manhattan Lately?

OH and BTW, I haven't heard of any minuteman plans to bring union jobs back, have you?.We welcome you to come to California next summer and pick lettuce and melons in 110 degree heat, bring a straw hat.Maybe you can get a job changing hotel linens in NYC while you wait for all those great"Agricultural career" jobs.

[DemBums]

35. It's ALWAYS somebody else's fault, innit?

Challenge yourself to see the ignorance driving your opinion, dreams.

Please. You HAVE to be smarter than that ...

[KurtNYC]

36. Yo hablo espanol

doesn't everyone.

Jobs aren't lost to "illegals" -- they are lost because republican employers HIRE undocumented workers at wages below minimums. You or I could go to Canada (or Mexico) -- we would not be "illegal" just because we are there. What is illegal is for SOMEONE TO HIRE us without us providing proper documentation. People are not illegal -- employing people off the books is.

[Telly Savalas]

54. Damn straight.

America's being ruined by those fucking illegals getting elected to Congress passing "right-to-work" laws.

[patrick t. cakes]

55. id blame

greedy corporations, companies, and politicians,
before id blame an undocumented worker, a human freakin being, trying to feed his family.
undocumented workers dont drive down wages. CAPITALIST GREED DOES!

is this Democratic Underground or am i somewhere else?

[UncleSepp]

65. Jobs are lost due to illegal behavior of EMPLOYERS

Blaming it on the illegal immigrants who take advantage of the opportunities provided illegaly won't solve the problem of job loss. There is a contract between employers who want to exploit vulnerable labor resources, and those resources who are willing to be exploited. The employers are fewer in number and have more to lose than the potential pool of exploitable workers.

It's like trying to solve an ant problem in the house by focusing on the ants, and not on what the ants come in the house to eat. You'll poison yourself, the dog, and the cat trying to keep the ants out, and you'll still have ants.

(For anyone else, please save the OH NOES, racism!!11!! because I used an analogy to describe humans that involves an animal. I like animals and also people far too much for that to be racist.)

[pampango]

66. I support immigration as a positive force for the US.

I have finally figured out that arguing for a crackdown on the employers is the best way for nothing to be done. Ideally, I would like increased immigration to be legalized, along with an amnesty for those already here, and then the new laws should be enforced strictly, but that's not going to happen.

Neither party is going to significantly crack down on the employers of illegal immigrants for political reasons, e.g. courting the Hispanic vote, campaign contributions from employers, fear of short-term economic dislocations, so advocating that as a solution leaves the current flow of immigrants pretty much untouched in the future.

For those who argue that we lose jobs to immigration, in one sense we "lose jobs" whether a new factory is located in the US and staffed by immigrants from Mexico or located in Mexico and staffed by Mexicans, if the alternative was a factory in the US staffed by Americans.

If the new factory is in the US, rather than Mexico, then our economy would benefit from the wages spent in the local economy. If the factory is built in Mexico, it benefits the Mexican economy and its development more, again because the wages are spent in the local economy.

While I am in favor of increased immigration, for humanitarian and economic reasons, I realize that there is a downside to many things in life. The downside to an increased supply of low-skilled workers, from any source, is that is puts downward pressure on the wage levels that employers are willing to pay for low-skilled workers (supply & demand, you know).

[Pavulon]

42. Yeah, best to shut up those who have

an opposing view. Actions vs words.

Yell, rush, shoot>

umm. no

[w4rma]

49. Dumb.

Dumb slogans too.

These guys "rushed a stage" where folks were speaking to promote border crossings which break the law. These guys "rushed a stage" where folks were speaking to keep the status quo on illegal border crossings which are usually ignored by law enforcement (and probably then used as blackmail against employers that then need those illegals to stay competitive with the other buisnesses that the law is turning a blind eye to) so that we can have our cheap "near-slave" labor.

That isn't "socialist". That's just dumb.

[patrick t. cakes]

50. really...

so the civil rights movement was dumb?
the vietnam war protesters, dumb?
the indians of all tribes, they were dumd too?
hell john brown was just a wacky dumb sob.

gotta fight back some time.

[w4rma]

51. Wtf does any of that have to do with promoting illegal border crossings?nt

[patrick t. cakes]

53. the minute men

are racist fascists pigs.

i didnt see anything on those banners
defending illegal boarder crossings.

those kids were defending human rights,
which is more noble than defending the minute men.

[patrick t. cakes]

64. boo hoo

poor employers. cant stay competetive? if they cant stay competitve with out resorting to slave labor then they should cese to be.
they keep "near slave" labor beacause they can. for profit. where i live everybody
knows where undocumented workers are employed and very rarely is there anything done about it. i.e. fines to employers. start smacking these true criminals (the companies, corps.) that import slaves.
make them illegal, not humans.
how about raising minimum wages too.

yeah the minute men have a right to be heard
but they also have the right to be told to go to hell.


great slogan.

[muntrv]

52. Does Stewart know that white supremacists are also involved

in the minutemen project?

[JoFerret]

56. New bumper sticker: "Welcome to America

"Welcome to America
Now speak Iroquois"
(or whichever language it actually was that the population spoke when the pilgrims arrived)

[patrick t. cakes]

57. bingo.

[MGD]

58. Violence begets violence and those who make peaceful protest impossible

make violent protest inevitable. Those who wish to silence the minutemen did not serve themselves in my opinion.

[Brian Stevens]

59. What the MSM is not telling you. (And it is not good)

Well, my friend took part in the raid at the Minute Man engagement (he was the guy in the long hair in the front and pointing at that Minute dude speaking, for those of you who saw the video)
Things, from what he told me, were a lot worse in the aftermath, then what was reported. He was walking home from the event with his girlfriend. All of a sudden, he found himself knocked hard to the ground. He skinned his face a little bit as well as his arms. When he got up and ready to fight, there were three guys standing there. They told him, if the next time, they will hire a private armed security for future events to make sure that this raid will never happen again and walked off. His girlfriend was crying hard and comforted him. So it seems that the more violent types are those fucking repugs.

[pampango]

60. That was evil and stupid of the Minutemen.

If the shoe was on the other foot and the Minutemen had broken up a pro-immigration forum, the worst thing we could do would be to push down one of their guys while he is walking home and tell him that we would hire security the next time we wanted to exercise our freedom of speech. Hell, we should just let them stew in the bad pr resulting from breaking up our forum, proving that they are evil as we say they are.

As MGD said in post # 58: "Violence begets violence and those who make peaceful protest impossible make violent protest inevitable."

[Brian Stevens]

70. That was the abridged version because I had to work

Let me just add a few after talking to him on the phone, he is a ok, and told his girlfriend after he got home, that it was nothing chloraseptic couldn't fix. He has a skinned mark on the right cheek, and his knee was also a bit skinned off from the tumble. Walks with no limp. Just was knocked for a loop, but after a good nights sleep, he was fine but just a lil sore.

The way he described it, that it wasn't a push, but more of a strike. He won't press charges because he hates the town's cops.

The whole story, from what he witnessed, was the plan was just to draw attention away from Gilchrist for as long as they could, and remain nonviolent. Then all of a sudden about ten guys stormed the stage, ready to KILL, and he stressed that. He backed off, knowing that the intent was not to be physical, but there were a lot of guy on his side that were ready to fight them off. He then said he saw one of Gilchrist college stooges draw first blood after they refused to get off the stage. Then all hell broke loose, he never saw a riot, except TV, before. He wanted to get a piece of the action but his girlfriend pulled him out and got the hell out of there. And you know the rest of that.

[pampango]

71. Well written further details.

I wonder if the 10 guys who stormed the stage were from a different group in a coalition or if they just flipped out. I have tried to imagine what I would do if the tables were turned and 10 guys charged the stage to interrupt a pro-immigration rally. I would like to think that I would try to avoid drawing first blood, but I would not want to leave the stage either and give in to the threat.

Thanks for the additional information. Always great to get the first hand account.

[Brian Stevens]

72. He was on TV (The f word channel specifically)

He didn't let them reveal his name (I can say his first name if ya let me). But when I saw him, it wasn't as bad as I thought. It didn't look like he was skinned in the face at all. That was a shock to me and something he never told me. LOL

[brentspeak]

67. The protestors were behaving like fascists

Physically disrupting a speaking event. Drowning out the words of someone trying to speak.

Doesn't matter if the Minutemen are a bunch of jerks; the protestors might as well be called "brownshirts".

[Spinoza]

68. Gandhi and MLK

would certainly NOT have supported the fascists who took it upon themselves to decide which Americans have the right to freedom of speech. On the other hand, Mussolini, Stalin, Franco, Hitler etc. ABSOLUTELY believed that some groups had the right to prevent other groups from speaking.

I am on the side of Gandhi and King.

[Poll_Blind]

69. Fighting fascism with daisies does not work. I am convinced of that.

  I do think, however, that acts of resistance involving physical confrontation should be an option of last resort. Is it more effective a tactic to rush the stage or to listen to what the speaker has to say, applauding or booing as an audience will in regard to their sentiment? How will it play in the media? Which choice of approach has a longer-lasting impact on the resolution of TMM to continue to preach their practices? Does it make a difference at all? These are questions I don't have answers to but ideally one would give thought to such things before attempting a physical act like that one.

  If the speakers would have been abolitionists and the stage rushed by supporters of slavery, would one who cheers this physical confrontation appreciate it in the same way?

  It's important to recognize that Bush's assault on the Constitution is a precursor to a physical assault on the populace. As with any movement, action-oriented peripheral groups like The Minuteman Project will bring themselves into creation and always push a little further to help set the tone. In that way Bush helps TMM and TMM helps Bush. This leapfrogging helps to put an agenda forward. An agenda which many find odious, including myself.

  But odious enough to confront, physically, to silence?

  These are some questions which vex me as I am a very ideological person prone to worrying about the appropriateness of my own behavior when confronting wrongs, ever concerned about the monstrous transformation that Nietzsche warned of when confronting beasts. And yet, stuffing daisy stalks into the rifle barrels of the oppressors will not, I think, yield the same sort of results it did back in the 60's. It's a different nation, today, that we struggle for Liberty in. Many rights have been revoked and many more will be revoked.

  At what point should disagreement turn to combat and what toll will that choice take on the ideology of the combatants?

PB

[pampango]

73. Found a couple of links to the news...

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/07/nyregion/07columbia.html?_r=1&ref=nyregion&oref=slogin
http://www.nysun.com/article/41020

Marvin Stewart, an African-American, was evidently the first speaker. I have to give the International Socialist Organization, which allegedly led the charge, credit for delaying the rushing of the stage until the Caucasian, Jim Gilchrist, the head of the Minutemen started to speak. The PR would have been even worse if they had shut down the speech of an African-American.

"These are racist individuals heading a project that terrorizes immigrants on the U.S.-Mexican border," Ryan Fukumori, a Columbia junior who took part in the protest, told The New York Sun. "They have no right to be able to speak here."

Donna Lieberman, executive director of the New York Civil Liberties Union, said yesterday, “Academic freedom thrives when all ideas, including racist ideas, have the opportunity to be aired.”

[NaturalHigh]

75. Great...socialist riot squads.

That's sure to win the war of ideas. :eyes:

[pampango]

76. Dude, they are called squads of simultaneous, opposing expression. n/t

Unfortunately, some feel that we can't win the war of ideas without shouting some ideas down. My strategy is to let people with idiotic beliefs (Ken Blackwell, as an example) express those beliefs at the top of their lungs. So much the better for my side.

[patrick t. cakes]

77. i wonder how the people

who disagree with the actions of the students
at columbia feel about the steel workers in
pittsburgh??

i love ghandi, love the man,
but he wouldnt have defeated the nazis.


there is a time to fight.

[pampango]

78. Respect your love for Gandhi, the man, and MLK, though

you didn't mention him, he kind of fits the same mold. Wish you thought that nonviolent resistance could be applied to a situation where the people you don't agree with are talking on a stage at a college which invited them to speak.

Gandhi and MLK would have had a harder time with the Nazis than they did with England and the US, respectively. But I hope that you don't use the Gandhi vs. the Nazis scenario to justify silencing every group whom you don't agree with.

[patrick t. cakes]

79. no i didnt mention MLK

and i have much respect for him as well, but i also think
that the militant aspect of thr civil rights, to a degree, helped
in that cause. it showed the anger, maybe the desperation, of the civil rights movement or evan better the desperation of peolple fighting to be free. violence certantly is desperation.

i think Gandhi and MLK would have ran cicles around a group like the "minute men" and i respect non-violent resistance, but my god the left in this country sometimes feels non-existant. its just nice to see people FIGHTING!! in any aspect. Bill Clinton--wonderful, pittsburgh--fuck yeah wonderful!!
lets take the fight to them.

i feel people like the "minute men" are proxys for this facsist administration. yes they have a right to speak and say any stupid thing they want, i just think people are opening their eyes and seeing these people for what they are.

[Mudoria]

81. Yea really...

they just gave the Minutemen a huge boost in PR.