2 jets just miss colliding at LAX

[question everything]

Friday, October 06, 2006

2 jets just miss colliding at LAX

SkyWest airliner traveling about 115 mph hits brakes and reverses thrusters to avoid crash by only 100 feet. One pilot ignored repeated warnings. Some said it was the closest call they'd ever seen.
By Doug Irving
DAILY BREEZE


(snip)

The private jet that blundered onto the runway, a Gulfstream with eight passenger seats , is registered in the United Kingdom. But the pilot "sounded like he was American born," said Ian Gregor, a spokesman for the Federal Aviation Administration, who heard some of his taped conversations with air traffic controllers. On Saturday, the Gulfstream was taxiing to its takeoff runway around 6 p.m., following a path that would take it across an active runway. Controllers told its pilot to stop and wait for clearance before crossing the runway; they repeated those instructions when the pilot missed a turn and had to double back.

Both times, the pilot repeated their instructions correctly, Gregor said -- including the part about not crossing the active runway. And then, with no warning to the controllers, the small plane pulled onto the runway and directly into the path of the SkyWest jet.

SkyWest Flight 6340, a Canadair regional jet with seats for 66 passengers that was about half full at the time, was bound for San Antonio, Texas. It had already begun accelerating for takeoff and was moving at an estimated 100 knots, or about 115 mph, when the smaller jet crossed its path. The SkyWest pilot slammed on the brakes and activated the jet's reverse thrusters. The FAA estimated he managed to stop his jet 100 feet from the smaller plane -- about a third the length of a football field, a distance it would have covered in moments.


(snip)

It's unclear what sanctions, if any, the pilot of the private jet could face. He might get only a warning, even if he was at fault, but only if he agrees to cooperate with the FAA and undergo additional training, Gregor said.

(snip)

Find this article at:
http://www.dailybreeze.com/news/articles/4327587.html

[bluestateguy]

1. This kind of stuff tends to happen when the FAA doesn't regulate

when you let the FAA languish and establish a culture where government regulators don't regulate.

[Solo_in_MD]

7. And you have experience in these matters?

I have a fair amount, and believe your comment to be cluesless at best.

The FAA takes incidents like this very serious, and if it was a US licensed pilot, he is basically going to have to demonstrate why he should continue to be allowed to fly *anything* in this country.

The FAA however, is not like many local law enforcement authorities. They don't have quotas and the don't get money from any fines they may levy. They are also very interested in preventing future incidents. They will investigate fairly thoroughly. They will look at the traces of where the bizjet was when comms were occuring. Did the pilot know where he was and if not why not.

Based on knowledge that comes from more than a few years in the cockpit of general, military and commercial aviation, a some observations:
- There is a closed runway at LAX (not many people are aware of that)
- LAX ground control assumes you know the airport as well as they do, though no one does. Asking a question will get you treated with scorn. BTDT.
- Getting around LAX with only a chart is damn near impossible (as it is with any major airport)
- No pilot is going to knowingly cross an active runway without permission. We don't want to die.
- Radio accents mean NOTHING. Every talks like Chuck Yeager. Doesn't matter if your are from the Bronx or New Delhi. Its a source of much humor in the aviation community.

Based on the article (from a known weak source, the Breeze is a bad joke in many ways):
- Brit registered plane (rare due to taxes over there)
- Bizjet at LAX (bad sign, due to its higher landing fees, most bizjets go to Burbank, Long Beach or Orange County)
- Correct read back but did not follow directions.

Initial Conclusion: Pilot was trying to comply but did not accurately know where he was on the airport.

The real question is why. Signs missing due to damage or due to construction, or even mismarked. Pilot ineptitude (rare, we all know how to taxi our planes), pilot lack of familiarity with the airport (safe bet that gets partial credit). Confusing signs (should be cited as well, but won't be, the FAA approved them). Some combination thereof.

By the time this gets ground through, know one will care except the small portion of the aviation community that deals with LAX, certainly not the Daily Breeze or DU.

I will get off my soapbox now...


Solo in MD, (1000s of hours, lots of planes, a whole bunch of ratings, and no medical)

[saigon68]

8. Wow Excellent Rant

Radio accents mean NOTHING. Every(one)(sic) talks like Chuck Yeager.

My take-- so true.

Especially in the military which transfers to the "Friendly Skies"

[Scairp]

21. Whether he was British or American

He obviously understood the english language very well, well enough to repeat back the instructions he had been given not to cross an active runway. I do hope they stopped him from flying off. For all anyone knows, he was under the influence of drugs or alcohol.

[maseman]

9. I'm a pilot but try to avoid large airports

I know the rules and regs but still soem of those monster airports like LAX are very confusing. The pilot should have asked for a progressive taxi since he was obviously confused. This is certainly pilot error and has nothing to do with the FAA. Well, it will now.

[ddeclue]

12. I don't have your hours but that's why I always ask for

"progressive taxi instructions" when I get cleared to a runway at a strange airport so that I (hopefully) don't make stupid mistakes.

Doug D.
Orlando, FL

[hedgehog]

14. I only ride in planes, not pilot them, but I have to agree with you.

I've looked at the runways and taxi strips during take-off and landings and I don't understand how anyone can tell their way around. It's not even clear to me that the markings are standardized airport to airport. The weirdest lighting I saw was at Heathrow or Gatwick and consisted of red, green and white lights embedded in the runway. it looked like a christmas tree!

I do have to point out an exception to the Chuck Yeager accents - the guys on British Airways sound like something straight from a movie about the RAF during WWII. Maybe they never got the memo?

[question everything]

19. "a weak source" - not for this story

which is published in many outlets, including this from UPI

http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/view.php?StoryID=20061006-093844-4440r

[Solo_in_MD]

25. Indeed weak

The Breeze is a low value also ran media outlet in the LA area. Little staff, mostly a repeater press releases and of things others have said. Little if any original reporting. Also seems to lack subject matter experts in just about every area. Most of their aviation reporting is so flawed as to be worse than nothing.

Of course I have no strong feelings on the matter.

[gulfcoastliberal]

30. If the FAA is so concerned w/safety, why is all their regulations are

written in the blood of crash victims? The FAA goes out of its way to cost the industry as little as possible. They still haven't mandated fire suppression in the holds after the Valujet crash. They still haven't required the center fuel tanks in 747s be fixed after TWA 800 (if it really was the fuel tank, that is). And after the American Airlines Rockaway crash - why didn't the FAA ground every single Airbus to inspect their tail assemblies if they snap off so easily - as the NTSB said they do? And what about the wiring in MD-11s that are soo flammable - reember the Swissair flight? Funny how the Pentagon mandated all military craft take out the type of wirirng, but not the FAA. Seems to me the FAA and NTSB only take action when hundreds of people die. I could go on all day. Like the 737 rudder issue - how many fatal nosedives did it take before they fixed the problem? And they partly blamed the pilot for not knowing the "crossover" maneuver - like they ever got training on it. All those regs - written in blood.

spell edit

[fleabert]

2. wow- good reflexes-

i'm not normally one to look for tabloid fodder, but I bet that video is amazing. Only because the outcome was so good...

[daleo]

3. It was a small corporate jet that hit the Brazilian airliner that crashed

Just a coincidence, I suppose. Unless training standards for small jet pilots have been relaxed or something like that.

[ddeclue]

11. The pilots of both accident relate biz-jets were very likely ATP's

meaning they held airline transport pilot certificates.

Doug D.
FAA Licensed Private Pilot
Orlando, FL

[daleo]

24. Thanks for the insight.

I suppose it is just a coincidence then.

[ddeclue]

4. Whichever pilot was not cleared to cross the active runway..

will most likely face a very stiff civil fine and loss of his license.

At the very least he will lose his job and never fly commercially again..

They call this a "runway incursion" and contrary to the comments below, the FAA takes these very very seriously. Much more so than in the past as a result of some more recent accidents.

Doug De Clue
FAA Licensed Private Pilot

[question everything]

5. Thank you for your comments

It is unbelievable that general aviation pilots just think that don't have to follow the instructions of the controllers.

[ddeclue]

10. That is not fair!

First:

1) The pilot(s) in question was most likely NOT a GA pilot if he was flying a bizjet. He most likely held an Airline Transport Pilot certificate, not merely a private ticket. Remember these planes costs millions of dollars.

2) Although incidents like this do occur, they are the extremely rare EXCEPTION and NOT the rule. I am far safer flying than I ever am driving or boating. Pilots have to undergo large amounts of training and testing and if they do make a mistake in a plane it is a rare thing and they often don't get a second chance to make such a mistake.

Not so with driving, most people on the road in a car are maniacs and shouldn't be allowed to drive.

Doug D.
FAA Licensed Private Pilot, Single Engine Land
Orlando, FL

[karlrschneider]

15. 6 p.m. is a horrible time to be navigating around a large unfamiliar

airport...just before sunset. As bad as after dark, really (I've gotten lost in the sea of blue
lights more than once - ATL is one of the worst.)

About half of bizjet pilots hold ATP tickets but it isn't required as you know and the type rating
training and test is the same either way. I even know a guy who has a Lear 35 type on a private
ticket...it's all he needs, legally, since he isn't paid for flying. (Obviously he has the
instrument rating too, a Lear ain't worth much if you can't go above FL180.) :D

[Hawkowl]

27. Bizjet IS GA

Bizjet or corporate pilots fly under FAR (Federal Aviation Regulations, aka CFR) part 91 and are considered general aviation pilots. Just because one has an ATP certificate doesn't mean they are held to airline standards (FAR part 121).

Also, LAX is not a place for amateurs. I don't care what it says on your pilot certificate. If you aren't familar with the airport--stay away. There are other nearby airports that specialize in General Aviation business jets. Easier, safer, cheaper and more convenient.

I fly into and out of LAX a lot. Two types of aircraft/pilots to beware of our business jets and some of the asian carriers. They seem to have trouble following the controllers instructions. Just an observation. By the way, Skywest Airlines conducts more takeoffs and landings at LAX than any other air carrier.



Skywest Captain

[ddeclue]

28. I stay out of class B airports like LAX, ATL, etc...

Skywest Captain:

I have flown into numerous class C airports like BNA, HSV, TYS, BHM, BTR, SRQ, etc. mostly around the Southeast US.

There really isn't any advantage for me to fly to ATL for instance when I can fly to PDK instead which would be closer to my final destination anyways.

Doug D.

[Poll_Blind]

6. Could have been another Tenerife.

1977: Hundreds dead in Tenerife plane crash. I wonder if this, as Tenerife, was due to "personalities" involved.

PB

[cboy4]

13. Gotta love the sooner than planned V1 on the roll.

Runway incursions....:scared:

[kestrel91316]

16. I'm trying real hard to ignore this incident. I have to fly out of LAX

at Christmas.

:scared:

[question everything]

18. One reason why we are flying to SNA on Thanksgiving

Other alternatives are Long Beach, Ontario and Burbank, all are being served by JetBlue - if you are served by them. Wish they'd come to Minneapolis ;(

[CabalPowered]

17. Skywest is a good airline

I've been on dozens of white nuckle, hair raising, puddle jumps from SLC to TWF. I've landed in the middle of a blizzards, high winds, heavy rain and the touchdown is always perfect. Although their Brazillias are starting to show their age.

[rocktivity]

20. The plane I was on had already landed

but it suddenly slammed on the brakes as it was taxiing toward its assigned arrival gate. The pilot, just barely managing to keep the anger out of his voice, explained that there was ALREADY a plane in the assigned gate. You can bet that somebody's ears got chewed off before the end of the day!

:headbang:
rocknation

[Pilotguy]

22. What is so confusing about LAX?

http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0610/00237AD.PDF

[Solo_in_MD]

26. That the easy you...you should see it from the cockpit

The closed runway is not help matters in the least either (per friends who are still flying in and out of LAX)

[Zhade]

23. That Canadair pilot is GOOD! Thank goodness for his competence!

NT!

[Haole Girl]

29. I'm sure glad one of the pilots was awake at the controls!

I hope they did an immediate toxicology test on the Gulfstream's pilot.

[Withywindle]

31. Runway incursions are terrifying...

It's good to hear from all the pilots on this thread with real info. Kind of reassuring.

Happened to me once a few years ago on a flight from Austin, TX back to Chicago. The flight had had a lot of turbulence and we were rattled to begin with. There was a very heavy low cloud cover over Chicago and we were lowering through it slowly...slowly...slowly and just a second after we broke through the clouds just about to O'Hare, the pilot pulls this stomach-lurching Han Solo maneuver and we're going up again, fast!

He gets on the intercom and actually says, "I don't know what they're SMOKING in the control tower, but there was SOMEONE ELSE on our runway. Sorry about that." We circled around for a little while until all was clear.

[question everything]

32. Caught On Audiotape: Near Collision At LAX

LOS ANGELES -- The FAA has released the air traffic control tape recording from an incident where two aircraft nearly collided on a runway at Los Angeles International Airport last weekend.

A SkyWest regional jet taking off for San Antonio on Saturday had accelerated to 115 mph when a Gulfstream business jet strayed in front, forcing the pilot to slam on his brakes, the Los Angeles Times reported The SkyWest jet, with about 39 people on board, came to a stop less than 100 feet from the Gulfstream.

A shaken tower controller then can be heard apologizing to the SkyWest pilot and asking him to leave the runway to make room for a landing aircraft, The Times reported.

"SkyWest 6430, I apologize. We never talked to the Gulfstream. He crossed without a clearance," says the controller, who was so traumatized that she left her post seconds later. "I apologize. If you could make a right turn, please, and exit the runway."

The SkyWest pilot comes onto the frequency next. "Exiting right," he says, exhaling heavily, The Times reported.

(snip)

http://www.nbc4.tv/news/10071076/detail.html (includes links to the tapes)