India may gain 10 million jobs from outsourcing

[OhioChick]

BLOOMBERG NEWS
10/07/2006

New Delhi — India may be able to create more than 10 million new jobs in five years from the global outsourcing business, the country's Prime Minister Manmohan Singh said Thursday.

India accounts for about half the $40 billion in work that is sent overseas mainly by U.S. and European companies each year, providing jobs to 1.3 million people, according to India's National Association of Software and Service Companies.

Microsoft Corp., IBM Corp. and local software companies such as Tata Consultancy Services Ltd. are hiring more in India to manage back-office operations and develop software programs for U.S. companies.

Singh forecast that by 2010, Indian companies could get half the $110 billion of business that will be off-shored. That will create more than 10 million jobs and boost growth in the country's $775 billion economy by one percentage point each year, he said.

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/business/stories.nsf/0/0633826F2B1AB1AA86257200000AEF4E?OpenDocument

[xchrom]

1. multi-national, horizontally and vertically integrated corporations

don't have loyalties to a country -- they have loyalties to their investors and to their bank accounts.

[aquart]

2. I have NO desire to enrich India.

[pampango]

8. Hope you have no desire to keep it impoverished either.

Your post seems to indicate that you either want India poor or don't care about people that are not Americans.

[aquart]

12. I don't.

India has been comfortable with millions of poor and starving for millenniums. I am NOT comfortable with seeing that here.

[pampango]

13. The poor of India will be happy to know that they are comfortable in their

poverty, not just powerless to change it. The blacks of South Africa were also, I assume, comfortable with their inferior status there, since it existed for so long? I say we leave the powerless and oppressed the way they are, and get on with our lives....Almost forgot, unless they live within our borders, then they matter.

[aquart]

14. You are assuming much from little.

And especially about me and my political positions.

I'm a rescuer. I do not waste two seconds of my time on anyone or anything I can't save. I also know that trying to save EVERYONE will render me utterly useless.

As for India, which was the sole topic of my conversation, I'm perfectly happy to feed them when they show me the birth control. I am NOT interested in feeding a generation that will breed starving children. I can't be party to such selfishness. I admire China which was willing to break the hearts of a few generations to save all the others to come.

As for happily giving them OUR jobs? No way in hell.

[smitra]

17. And you have assumed that they don't practice birth control in India?

From your post, it sounds like you think the Indians breed like rabbits, simply in order for one generation to bring to life millions of human beings, only to see them starve to death. If you had spent more than the 'two seconds' you mention in checking some facts, you would have learned that in 2006, India's population growth rate has come down to 1.4% from 2.2% a few years ago. India has been advocating birth control since the early 1960s at least - I know, I used to live there. It has, for better or worse, and however imperfectly, been a democracy since its Independence from Britain in 1947. In such a system, one cannot - simply CANNOT - restrict people to one child, as any poster on this forum, who believes in democracy and the will of the people, should know.

And also, for the record, India has not had poverty and starvation for 'millenia'. Starting from the late 1400s with Vasco da Gama, every major European power bent on colonization (the Portuguese, French, Dutch, British) would not have made a beeline for India just to learn the 'culture'. They went to gather the wealth of the country, which gradually got impoverished as a whole over the centuries.

I do not support - in any shape of form - the outsourcing of jobs from one location to another simply to take advantage of cheap labor. In my opinion, entities that do that simply escape the hard-fought advantages that workers in one country have gained through the decades for an environment where this battle is yet to come, or be won. At the same time, the tone of this poster reeks with comments about the 'others' (solely India in this case) who deserve the long-term state they find themselves in, vs 'us' who have done so well. Keep in mind that the 'others' have been trying to improve their lot as much as you have, but may not have succeeded completely - yet - while keeping their values and commitments (like to democracy) intact.

[newyawker99]

18. Hi smitra!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[smitra]

23. Thank you

I have been 'lurking' for the past few weeks....

[La Lioness Priyanka]

25. i agree with you

and on an unrelated note...my father is an s. mitra.

[samsingh]

43. welcome to DU Simitra.

[fujiyama]

26. Giving them "your" job?

Get off your high horse.

We're not entitled to these jobs. It's amazing how arrogant people in Western countries can be...

You do realize that India is simply taking advantage of the system western governments pushed for over the last ten years right? This is globalization at its finest. Now you can say you don't like it, as will millions of others, but it really doesn't matter, because as long as corporations sell us stuff, they will try to find ways of keeping costs down.

And India has pushed for birth control, but not in authoritarian means China has. Frankly I'm disgusted at your admiration of China's authoritarian policies...

[Skittles]

34. excuse me

This is no "global economy" to me since I cannot compete with the people overseas my company exploits. By the way, services haven't gotten cheaper since stuff went overseas - the CEOs and executives are getting richer. Unless you want to use Wal-mart as an example and we all know the taxpayers subsidize their sorry ass.

[fujiyama]

39. Agreed, when a person loses their job

to people that will do it for a fraction of the cost, it's difficult to compete. And consumers really aren't reaping any benefits to outsourcing. After all, we all know that corporations aren't exporting jobs for any altruistic reasons.

But still, I would say that exploitation is a relative term. We're not talking about garment industries, textiles, and manufacturing where there is true physical exploitation.

For the millions of younger Indians that have a chance at a middle class life due to being able to get a job with a multinational corporation, it's far from it. This is a great chance for them. The previous alternatives were often for many to simply head out here looking for jobs or work for lower wages in government related jobs.

Now, I'm not saying you should be happy for them or that you don't have the right to be bitter (that's definetely understandable), but the people working at multinationals in IT and other hi-tech related sectors are not necessarily being exploitated the same way they are in manufacturing and sectors involving physical labor.

[Skittles]

53. they are getting a chance at middle class at the expense of MY CHANCE

the whole thing SUCKS and if they do such a good job - which, by the way, I can tell you from experience THEY DON'T - they should start their own companies.

[Bhaisahab]

55. if there was a Democratic Underground in the late 1890s

Indian nationalists would have defintely posted messages here about the 'outsourcing' of India's wealth to Britain.
All's well in the world as long as things are circular.

[samsingh]

137. you better believe it! so much wealth in India

was plundered in the first half of the twentieth century.

[samsingh]

136. again, India is just competing in the open market

offshoring has been hitting the manufacturing sector for decades.

[fujiyama]

159. That's unfortunate

for you and being in a field that could be easilly outsourced, I would hate for it to happen to me. I'm not really defending the practice of outsourcing. I think it's ultimately shortshighted for many companies due to cultural differences and eventually drying up wealth at home to provide a consumer base.

I'm simply saying that blaming Indians or India for taking this opportunity is the height of stupidity and arrogance.

The simply fact is that being unemployed or poor here is still a million times better than being poor in India. Is that of any consellation to you or others that lost jobs over the years? No, not really but it might bring a little perspective on what we think of as "exploitation".

I'm not going to comment on the quality of their work, which I've heard mixed results about. Personally I'm not terribly impressed with the CS abroad. They're poorly trained and there are certainly communication difficulties in the process.

There are many quality issues that have come about as well. Companies are obviously hiring many fresh graduates with little if any practical experience, while firing some very qualified and experienced folks here. But for now companies believe they are getting a good deal - even if a large percentage of those hired are not that good, even this ineffeciency will still be cheaper than what it would have taken to pay those back home. As long as it's not hurting the shareholders, they don't care - but this has little to do with India and everything to do with the shortsighted thinking of US based companies.

And as for Indians starting their own companies, many have. I believe, India has been doing better than China with regards to startups.

[Deja Q]

147. DING DING DING, WE HAVE A WINNER

Prices have NOT gone down due to offshoring, which was one of the claims. Prices keep going up and/or product quality (or quantity) is reduced.

What is going on is greed and self-mutilation. As America slashes its jobs, it's slashing its wrists too. And at some point it won't be possible to stop the blood flow. And even those doing the slashing will sadly realize they are not immune. Symbiosis, we do need each other.

[bleedingheart]

42. actually India is being taken advantage of...

let the Indians start striking for better wages and working conditions and let us see...

When Coca Cola and other internationals...soil the land, render the water undrinkable and leave a mess behind due to lax environmental controls....let us see who was taking advantage of who....

[pampango]

45. In one sense the Indians are being taken advantage of. Just like

Ohioans are taken advantage of when Honda builds a plant here. Does Honda make a profit of the cars it makes? Gee, I hope so, or they won't be doing it for long. Is Honda taking advantage of Ohio's closeness to markets, a skilled workforce, even if it costs more than in the Philippines? You bet they are. They don't locate in Japan, Ohio, or Mexico because they are philanthropists.

Honda, Toyota and other foreign manufactures have built plants in the US (insourcing, if you will) for a variety of reasons. One reason is that our labor is cheaper than in Japan, Germany and some other countries. Do I resent them building a plant in Ohio and taking advantage of my fellow Ohioans? No. I wish they did it more often. Kind of how a Mexican worker probably feels about a Honda plant in Mexico.

Are we just outsourcing? Or do we oppose insourcing as unfair to foreign workers?

[VirginiaDem]

56. I agree entirely! n/t

[fujiyama]

47. Certainly

Nobody said corporations are benevolent (atleast I sure didn't). And BTW, India's labor laws are stronger than China's. Unlike China, Indians do strike and protest frequently. I think people don't realize that that being "taken advantage" is different in different sectors.

I mean, when people try to claim that those working in a call center are exploited, it makes me laugh. I've spoken to those working at them. They would otherwise have likely been working at a bank, but these places pay more and affords them a pretty solid middle class lifestyle (by Indian standards). These are white-collar jobs. We're not talking about folks in sweatshops here.

But I am disgusted by this sense of entitlement and attitude of resentment for others for taking something that is being offered. I don't expect people to be happy for them for this while they're losing their own job, but this idea that a job can be "stolen" is ridiculous to me.

[brentspeak]

72. You're disgusted that people believe they're entitled to a good job?

Hard-working people have every right to take the attitude they're "entitled" to a good job. The way it's supposed to work: if a human being works hard or is willing to work hard, then they have earned a good job, and are deserving of continuing to be earning good jobs.

[fujiyama]

108. I don't blame people

for being pissed at corporations for exporting jobs overseas. Then again corporations do a lot of unethical things people should be pissed about.

But I do think people blaming Indians for "stealing" a job that is not inherently their's are incredibly arrogant. "American" Corporations are hardly American. People are not entitled to anything in this world, even when they work hard or have certain skills. Now, they should be able to, but that's not how it is.

I'm tired of people misplacing the blame and anger. If multinational corporations are TAKING jobs elsewhere, how is that anyone but the corporations' fault? And there's a lot of cluelessness regarding the living standards of other countries. Why the hell would anyone expect the average Indian to give up a good opportunity to improve their life? Sure, the job pays X times less than it would here, but that's still a middle class income by their standards.

We aren't talking garment, textiles, manufacturing, or other physically intensive jobs. The IT jobs that have left are not sweatshops. Sure, some there may bitch about being exploited, but they'll continue to work there.

Ultimately, we as consumers should decide whether we want to support such companies, and so far, it seems like we do. We continue to buy billions of dollars worth of junk from corporations that outsource tech support, customer service, IT work, and many other aspects.

No one said the global economy was easy, and other countries are playing by rules OUR government and corporations set forth.

[samsingh]

140. its the corporations taking jobs elsewhere

India didn't make GM, GE, etc. take their jobs to their country.

the executives at the multinationals made that choice because of the mighty dollar.

as an IT executive myself, living in the West since i was a child, i'm hurting because of offshoring.

[Deja Q]

149. Bingo. Why will people study for a degree if there's no point TO having it

That's a big reason why higher education is failing in this country. No chance to use the knowledge one has to spend tens of thousands for. So why spend the money? One would have a better chance gambling or flushing their money down a toilet.

Meanwhile, as new students become fewer and fewer, tuition has to go up so the admins can keep their wages and classes up to date.

The cost of offshoring to America is far, far greater than these "You evil bastard, how dare you talk about America when we're supposedly 'helping' others" types who have some nice ideals but are too busy dreaming to see what's underneath their happy little world. :(

[samsingh]

138. expectations of Indian workers have been skyrocketing.

[sadiesworld]

131. What we ARE entitled to is political representatives who put our

interests first as opposed to ginning up incentives for companies who offshore.

[samsingh]

135. Very good point fujiyama

[progressivebydesign]

142. How I miss.. the "made in America" days, san political correctness.

Geez DU has gotten so fucking weird over the past 5 years!!!

I can't believe that there are actual people in America that cheer outsourcing. I don't know what planet you are living on, but America is HURTING, and outsourcing is what's doing it. How about India just gets their own shit together and takes care of their own people? And America can take care of theirs.

And yes... the term "MY JOB" as in "my job was outsourced" Is TOTALLY correct. IT's your job when you have it.

[OhioChick]

148. Hear, hear!

Good post. :thumbsup:

[fujiyama]

160. India got it's shit together (relatively speaking)

That's why the people there ARE getting jobs.

It's better now than it was twenty years ago when it had strict restrictions on multinationals even doing business there.

In case you haven't noticed, "American" corporations don't even consider themselves American anymore. They have no loyalties.

It's up to us to get OUR government to get its shit together. The Indian government has a million problems, but welcoming foreign companies offering jobs to its citizens is not one of them.

[Deja Q]

154. In an economy based on consumer spending,

everyone in that country who's willing and capable damn well deserves a job. Especially to BE a consumer, which in turn keeps the wheel going.

It's symbiosis and they are forgetting that.

As for population control, there is NEVER a cozy solution. But 300 million versus a combined 3 billion in our favorite two countries to offshore to, the corporate elite will only see one thing: More people to be used, which means cheaper, exploitable labor with no concept of ethics. You think that previous poster is callous? There are the true soulless out there, and it's not him nor I.

[fujiyama]

161. As far as I know

I'm not soulless and I'm not running a company taking jobs out of the US.

To understand how and why it is happening and discuss it rationally is not the sign of a freeper, Nazi, or repuke.

I'm not one of those stating we should be happy these jobs have left. An honest day's worth gives one a lot of dignity and self respect and is fundamental to a healthy economy. You don't need an econ degree to know that.

But whose fault is it these jobs have left? Isn't it ours for constantly electing politicians that turn a blind eye to this? Isn't it ours for buying poor quality low priced junk from these companies in the first place, then get poor customer service?

[samsingh]

44. and yet North America consumes what 50- 75% of

the world's fossil fuels with like 10% of the population?

[Deja Q]

151. And with their population being 5 TIMES larger,

how long before their ratio of people/resources blooms?! 1.5 billion Indians, more and more of them are going to want 'in' too.

America has its problems with resource usage and wasting, but all corporate America is doing is rabidly compounding the problem.

And most of America's resource usage problems are vehicle-oriented. And that problem too is being blindly passed into other countries. Not too bright... especially when we could be fixing our own transportation problems first, so we can get rid of the "wasteful American" epithet.

[raccoon]

74. Hmm...what do you think other countries think of the US, with 5%

of the world's population, and uses by far the lion's share of the world's resources?

How's that for selfishness?

"I'm perfectly happy to feed them when they show me the birth control. I am NOT interested in feeding a generation that will breed starving children. I can't be party to such selfishness. "

Sounds like you're about 30 years behind the times with that.

[AngryOldDem]

76. Spoken like someone who does not have to live with the issue

Many of us do.

I guess my husband, who is in IT and deals with outsourcing and its (bad) effects almost daily, should just happily give up his livelihood so that someone in Bangladore can take it over. Nope. Don't think so. If that makes me a hardass, then I'm a hardass.

Now, for the Politically Correct version of my mini-rant: I don't mind Indian workers being trained in the current technology in order to better their economic situation **within** India. I do, however, **very much mind** taking jobs away from qualified people here through outsourcing, just so U.S. companies can save a few bucks. That's the real bottom line. Companies couldn't give a shit about people like my husband and his counterpart in Bangladore. There is no altruism at work here at all.

[pampango]

77. Guilty as charged. I do often pontificate on issues that I don't "live."

Neither I nor anyone in my family are fighting in Iraq or Afghanistan. No one in my family has lost a job to outsourcing. I have not been replaced by an illegal immigrant at my job. And I have not been propositioned by a congressman, at least not yet.

My point was that if an IT guy or gal in Bangalore should not be allowed to "sell" services in the US, then Boeing should no be allowed to sell jets to India. India buys jets from us because it is cheaper than building their own. Would I be pissed if I lost my job to an IT guy in India? Sure. I would also be pissed if I worked for Boeing and lost my job because India wouldn't buy the jets we build, unless we let them sell us services.

I realize that your position on this depends to some extent on which side your bread is buttered on. If I am in IT or a call center worker or many types of factory workers, I worry more about outsourcing and less about illegal immigration. If I work construction, farm work, or in certain other low-skill service type industries, I probably worry more about immigration than I do about outsourcing.

[AngryOldDem]

91. The "usual" economic rules don't apply here

Jobs that are being done here capably, efficiently, and (for the most part) at a fair wage are being sent over there where they are being done cheaply and (more often than not) inefficently only so that companies can increase their profit margins and make their shareholders happy. There is no "trade" to speak of, which is what you are implying by your Boeing analogy. S;ave trade, maybe, but that's another issue with offshoring.

And thank you deeply for understanding why many of us feel threatened by outsourcing. :sarcasm:

[pampango]

94. I apologize for not expressing my compassion for the threat you feel from

outsourcing. I meant to express compassion for those threatened by outsourcing and those threatened by illegal immigration and to admit that I do not fall in either category.

I have friends who work at the Honda factory in Marysville, Ohio, and others at the Toyota plant in Georgetown, Kentucky, who would be very threatened if there was not outsourcing, since those jobs would be relocated back to Japan.

[VLC98]

95. I have a question for you.

Where are the Honda vehicles made in Ohio sold?

[pampango]

97. I have never asked, but my guess is that they are sold in the US. n/t

[VLC98]

98. I think your guess is correct.

My husband owns a Honda that was made in Ohio, and I suspect all Honda vehicles made there are sold in the US. If Honda was exploiting the American workers, paying them a fraction of the minimum wage in Japan for example, only to send the vehicles back to Japan for sale...then you would have a point.

[pampango]

99. I am fairly sure that my friends would rather be working and "exploited",

in your scenario, making Hondas destined for Japan than not working at all. If Japanese workers were making $100/hour (value of the yen) and my friends were only making $20/hour, I guess they would be exploited by Japanese standards. But, if their only options were $15/hour jobs they might just stay with Honda (and grouse about their pay;) That is the option, relatively speaking, that many factory workers in the Third World have.

[VLC98]

100. Yes, and in that scenario...

Honda would be greedy bastards and wrong. As it is, they are providing jobs in the country they are selling in, which I think is admirable. You see, I don't fault Indian workers, just the companies that employ them.

[pampango]

101. Why would Honda be wrong to build a factory here and export cars to Japan,

when Boeing builds factories here and exports planes to Japan? Either one could build the factory in Japan and pay the Japanese wage rate, but why is that preferable? Is it because more of Honda's shareholders are Japanese, and more of Boeing's are American? (I have no idea of the percentages of the different nationalities of the respective shareholders.) Should factories and other businesses be restricted to providing goods and services to the country they are locate in?

This preference for producing only for a domestic market would, also, be very difficult on poor countries that have very small economies. Big, developed economies would fair better, but there would be little incentive for anyone to build a factory or start a business in a poor country when there is not much of a market to sell to. I guess we could say, "Tough. Pull yourselves up by your own bootstraps. You're not selling anything to us." That seems a little insensitive to the poverty and development needs of the Third World.

[VLC98]

110. I don't know anything about Boeing.

I just think that a company, such as Honda, that opens factories in the countries it sells in, deserves to be more successful. I don't think that businesses should be restricted to selling in the country they're located in, but there should be a balance of exports and imports. Growing up in England, I wore Levi's made in the US, my Dad bought American made Stanley tools etc. Nowadays it's hard to find anything made here for domestic use, let alone for exportation.

[pampango]

115. Fair enough. Nice talking with you. n/t

[treestar]

129. It all goes around anyway

Each person is part of the process. We can't expect it to revolve around us.

If the labor is cheaper, they're going to get the job, that's capitalism.

But if they have more money in India in general, they will become a market for something else we have to sell, in which case there will be more jobs here, and more money to be made here.

People don't cry about outsourcing if a company moves from one state to another, but that's only because they can move to another US state.

The answer is less stringent regulations, in all countries, on where labor is as far as birth and citizenship. These artificial restrictions just hobble the economy. These IT people might be able to go to India for these jobs as the Indians can come here, when needed, and vice versa.

[sadiesworld]

132. Capitalism assumes a roughly even playing field.

US workers cannot compete with someone who can live on a few dollars a day, we just can't. Your idea of waiting for that day when Indians and the Chinese "can afford our products" is flawed. Aside from the fact that wealth is becoming increasingly concentrated in fewer and fewer hands, what products are you referring to? What can we produce that they can't produce more cheaply?

As for US citizens being permitted to move to China or India and "take" jobs, it just isn't going to happen, they have plenty of people to worry about as it is (unlike our leaders theirs seem to want to see their citizens employed). Also, why SHOULD such a thing be required? So, a radiologist should have to move to India (which caste will s/he be in?) to read his next-door-neighbors' catscan?

[treestar]

157. Our ancestors had to move here

If we're going to hobble our economy, some of us are going to have to move to other countries where the jobs we are qualified for are. Labor has to go where needed. Or you have to start your own business.

If you move there, the cost of living for you is the same as it is for the people there. If you have no ability to do any job in the US, and there is a job for you in India, why wouldn't you go there? No one will prefer to starve in the US than to live somewhere else making money. Which is why we are here in the first place - our ancestors left their home where there were no opportunities for them.

So if the US insists on cutting the number of jobs and the amount of economic activity possible, then it will start losing people like those countries did. They and their spending will go elsewhere, and the jobs in those more open locations will grow also.

There was a reason this country became the richest, if we change the conditions to do away with those reasons, we are no longer going to lead.

[samsingh]

141. i'm also experiencing the negatives of offshoring because

i'm in IT and well settled in the West.

[Deja Q]

146. How many Americans are responding to offshoring,

by boycotting or other means?

Seems America doesn't mind becoming a nation of impovershed people either.

I dunno. So why should I care one way or another? Maybe Lil' Dong or whatever he calls himself in North Korea will render us all equally dead, in which case none of it matters anymore? :shrug:

[varun]

22. India and China accounted for 2/3 of world economy before 1800

India was not poor fir "millenia"....


http://www.economist.com/surveys/displaystory.cfm?story_id=7877959


"...Until the late 19th century, China and India were the world's two biggest economies. Before the steam engine and the power loom gave Britain its industrial lead, today's emerging economies dominated world output. Estimates by Angus Maddison, an economic historian, suggest that in the 18 centuries up to 1820 these economies produced, on average, 80% of world GDP (see chart 2). But they were left behind by Europe's technological revolution and the first wave of globalisation. By 1950 their share had fallen to 40%..."

[samsingh]

134. India has not been comfortable with poverty

it was a colony of Britain. After independence, it had no industrial capability whatsoever, but many religious factions and a huge population.

it is only now coming into its own.

[progressivebydesign]

139. At America's expense? Do the Indians give a shit about us? n/t

[Deja Q]

145. Nothing wrong with India helping India.

But America won't help its own.

Plus, the issues are far less simple than what's being stated.

But one thing I will always be clear on: offshoring is wrong. It is hurting America's economy and hurting the world economy and those affected adversely by offshoring are not going to think of anybody else.

[sweetheart]

3. 15 rupees/dollar would change that nt

[bleedingheart]

4. As it was in the 1800's and the 1900's...it is the same story

companies love cheap labor.

The seek it out...

People can wake up and fix this problem...but they need to vote for Democrats and Socialists to do it...

[brokensymmetry]

5. Oh good. Higher corporate profits.

More unemployed Americans. More destroyed hopes,
dreams - and families. All so the CEO can get
that big bonus.

Dear God in Heaven, can we PLEASE have a Democratic
Congress in 2006?

[IntravenousDemilo]

6. It's that "giant sucking sound" again...

the one Ross Perot mentioned years ago, except this time it's not Mexico doing the sucking, but a country with ten times the population.

What's needed is legislation whereby US companies have to pay all the factory and other workers on their payroll, whether domestic or foreign, the same wage for the same work, effectively cutting off their reason for outsourcing in the first place.

[allisonthegreat]

10. please...all overseas...

how about the impoverished American's?

[IntravenousDemilo]

19. Well, in the first place, Americans are on the whole less impoverished

than the citizens of India, Indonesia, the Philippines, etc. And in the second place, when corporations find that they can no longer count on the cheap labour of third-world nations, they will realize that they might as well do their business in the US of A, which will create jobs for impoverished Americans.

[Megahurtz]

79. Let's Forget the "On the Whole" BS

because the impoverished Americans don't see it.

[AngryOldDem]

90. Excellent suggestion

<<What's needed is legislation whereby US companies have to pay all the factory and other workers on their payroll, whether domestic or foreign, the same wage for the same work, effectively cutting off their reason for outsourcing in the first place.<<<

Put the slave labor trade out of business once and for all.

[pliftkl]

162. How would US companies compete then?

If US companies had to pay their overseas workers as much as they do American workers, how would they compete with European or Asian companies that didn't have the same constraint? US companies would basically be forced to stay within the US, and leave any chance of growth in the rest of the world to non-US companies.

[acmavm]

7. How the hell do these companies expect to maintain a customer

base with no one working.

Short sighted greedy bastards.

[SammyWinstonJack]

21. Ya know, I've wondered the same thing. Who is going to buy their

products? Certainly not the cheap labor they pay slave wages too. They can't afford to buy and Americans soon won't be able either. Like you said, short sighted greedy bastards! They care not for the Americans who build up their companies nor the cheap labor in third world countries that they are exploiting.

[sarcasmo]

9. How could this not be kicked and Nom.

Ten million jobs that should be in Europe and the United States. Let's say we only get three million, that would put a nice dent in the unemployment lines.

[pampango]

11. What is an acceptable tradeoff of US jobs for Third World jobs?

If we won't trade 3,000,000 of our jobs for 10,000,000 jobs in India or Africa, would we trade 1 million, 1 thousand, just 1 for a Third World country to employ another 10,000,000 people?

I realize that we care more for Americans than any other people in the world, but can we envision any exchange of our prosperity for progress in the Third World? Sometimes we come across as concerned for the poor here, but not on the other side of the border. The poor in New Mexico are my problem, but those in old Mexico are not? My caring is supposed to stop at a line someone drew on a map long ago?

[Little Star]

15. Yes, those Corporate Exec's are great humanitarians!

Why cannot people understand that you have to nourish and strengthen yourself before you can save another?

[pampango]

24. Any system that relies on great humanitarians to work successfully

is doomed. Never said that corporate execs were.

Granted we need to be strong in order to help others. The tough question is "How strong do we have to be before we can start helping others?" And "What kind of help can we give while we are strengthening ourselves?"

[arcos]

52. How much nourishment and strenght do you want?

Especially when others need so much more?
The US is the most powerful country in the world and has been for quite a while now... it is the richest country, with the most powerful military, and one of the highest standards of living, the highest use of fossil fuels, etc. There are poor people in the USA because of internal politics, you don't have universal healthcare because your politicians have been bought by big pharma, etc, and not because you've been "sharing" too much with the rest of the world.

No one is saying corporations are big humanitarians, we all know it is actually the opposite. But developing countries all over the world are seeing outsourcing and nearsourcing as a huge opportunity for their people to get better paying jobs, and are trying to attract corporations that are obviously interested because of the lower costs. Here in Costa Rica there are lots of people working at call centers and making $700 or $800 when in the US the same position would pay $2500... sure, it's really convenient for the companies, but with no university degree lots of people could hardly make more than $300 or $400 working at retail, banks and the like.

[Megahurtz]

80. Oh Brother.

:eyes: Is that the BS you are fed about the U.S. in Costa Rica?
Just because "the U.S. is the richest Country in the World" doesn't mean that it's people are. :think:

The U.S. needs to take care of it's own first.

[arcos]

88. I'm not fed anything, thank you very much.

Americans are not the richest people in the world because of conservative social policies, but if a little redistribution of wealth were applied in the US, yes, Americans would be the richest in the world and everyone would live happily.
No one is asking the US to take care of anyone else... I'm just saying some of you guys should stop bitching and try to put things in perspective, compare yourselves to the rest of the world and realize that you are indeed very lucky.

[pampango]

89. Sometimes we get into a kind of pity fest here.

As you probably know the income inequality in the US is quite bad as it is in most countries. We do spend a lot of time trying to make our society more just and equitable and I hope that never changes.

Most here don't realize, or forget in the "heat of the battle" that a middle class life style here is only a dream to most in the Third World. We are concerned here abut holding on to our middle class life style, while much of the world is trying to achieve it for the first time.

There is a tendency to "look out for Number 1" and screw the rest of the World, no matter how poor they are.

[Megahurtz]

114. If you are poor

"looking out for number one" is all you are able to do
because everday is a struggle and it's all you can think of,
and no one else here is going to look out for, you.

Something you have never dealt with, hence your insensitivity to the American poor.

[sarcasmo]

16. The quote was Ten Million between America and Europe.

[spindrifter]

20. All we need to do is

impose some tariffs on products coming from overseas. Let the mf's outsource jobs if they want--no problem. But since they are American companies having a negative impact on jobs here, let them contribute to the re-training and extended unemployment benefits our workers need. We have had extensive tariffs in the past.

[ChromeFoundry]

28. exactly...

You know our products imported into China (at least when we did export product) is under heavy tariffs. But I guess, for example, if we put a $.02 tariff on every Chinese hammer that Wal-mart is selling, Forbes would not be able to list as many billionaires in this country as the unemployment lines lengthen.

[Infinite Hope]

27. Good

Good. We're enriching a future ally at a time where their neighbor and historic enemy, China, is rising. Not only that, but it creates a market for our future goods. You have to keep in mind that those 10 million jobs don't mean 10 million cuts in the U.S. either.

[nodehopper]

57. actually

people who are out of a job because their corporate management switched to outsourcing would disagree with you.

[pampango]

60. How many Americans out of a job would be acceptable for 10 million

new Indian jobs to be a good thing? Given how well of Americans are compared to Indians, would we trade 1,000 jobs here for 10,000,000 Indians becoming employed? 100? 1?

Kennedy didn't set up the Peace Corps, and I didn't join it, to say AMERICA FIRST and damn the rest of the world; we hope you develop but don't expect us to sacrifice a nickel to help you; have a nice life.

Do we have to protect and enhance our own economic health? Sure, but we should not begrudge a Third World country some level of success in providing at least some more prosperity for its people.

[Infinite Hope]

66. ...

Obviously it hurts short term, but it helps our foreign policy and future by having such a strategic ally with a stable economy. People are losing jobs and that's horrible, no one can deny. But it's not a black and white issue.

Subjectively, those who lost jobs aren't going to think the gains outweigh their loss in the vast majority of cases. And objectively it will have a negative impact on our economy in the short term. But long term it tends to be more of a benefit to our economy by creating a middle class in a nation of 1 billion people.

[AngryOldDem]

92. Say what?

>>And objectively it will have a negative impact on our economy in the short term. But long term it tends to be more of a benefit to our economy by creating a middle class in a nation of 1 billion people.>>

Care to explain? How will outsourcing actually create a middle class that is, in part, being undermined by outsourcing?

[pampango]

96. Perhaps I misunderstood you post, but I think that Infinite Hope was

referring to building a large middle class in India which would serve as a market for our goods in the long term.

[Infinite Hope]

165. right...

Sorry for not being clear. My fault.

[zreosumgame]

105. nope, you are still thinking short-term

Just wait, once indians get comfortable and think they are 'middle-class' those very same GOPorps will move those jobs to someplace with even cheaper labor and they will be back in the same situation. You assume there will come some kind of steady-state, but that assumption is false. As long as a country can enslave it's workers and sell their efforts for pennies, and our government will offer them tax-breaks to boot for off-shoring, that is where the corps will go.

[OhioChick]

107. You're right........ Doors are opening for Vietnam now

Microsoft's Gates Sees Vietnam Outsourcing Potential (Update2)

April 22 (Bloomberg) -- Microsoft Corp. Chairman Bill Gates said Vietnam has the potential to develop as an outsourcing center similar to India, during the first visit by the world's richest person to the Southeast Asian nation.

Gates, 50, met Vietnamese Prime Minister Phan Van Khai and President Tran Duc Luong in Hanoi, before crossing town to take questions from students at the Hanoi University of Technology. The visit by the founder of the world's biggest software company takes place two months after Intel Corp., the world's biggest semiconductor maker, said it would build a plant in Vietnam.

While the U.S. government says infringement of intellectual property rights is rampant in Vietnam, the nation of 84 million people is attracting the attention of global technology companies, lured by economic growth exceeding 8 percent a year and an estimated literacy rate of at least 90 percent.

``It's great that Intel is coming here, and no doubt that other information-technology manufacturers will see the kinds of skills'' in Vietnam, Gates said in Hanoi today. ``But in no sense should Vietnam specialize in manufacturing. Vietnam should also focus on software development, outsourcing. There's an opportunity to do call centers.''

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000080&sid=aROH_UTQX35U&refer=asia#

[pampango]

109. Careful there. The beginning of your first sentence kind of scare me.

You came dangerously close to saying that outsourcing/globalization might make Indians comfortable and "middle class". I did relax a little bit when you followed that up by saying that the corporations would then move onto the next country and repeat the process, leaving India back where it was. The only problem is see in that analysis is that by that time India will have built up a substantial domestic economy, with all of its "middle class" and comfortable folks, and may then be able to orient its endeavors to satisfying its domestic needs. It is dangerously possible that we may accidentally have kick started their economic development to the point where it becomes self-sustaining.

I trust that this was meant as a shot at corporations; not as an endorsement of a system that might bring some prosperity and middle class life styles to Indians and then move on and do it to another country.

[ellie_belly]

29. don't know how to title this

I am an American. I live in Nepal where I own and operate a small OUTSOURCING firm. We write software for companies in the US and elsewhere. Every employee of my company would have to leave the country to find meaningful employment if we didn't provide quality jobs. This is SOCIALLY RESPONSIBLE outsourcing. I don't know what else to write because I'm so amazed by the attitudes shown in this thread. People, please remember protectionism will get you nowhere very fast.

[ChromeFoundry]

32. i don't know how to title this either...

Nepal? Hummm... I found this link on foreign investment and foreign ownership in Nepal.


Nepal permits 100 percent foreign ownership in some sectors, simplified licensing and regulations, and opened up the telecommunications and civil aviation sectors. But many sectors, such as business and management consulting, accounting, engineering, legal services, defense, alcohol and cigarette production, travel and trekking agencies, and retail sales, remain closed. According to the U.S. Department of Commerce, implementation of pro-investment policies is "often distorted by bureaucratic delays and inefficiency…. here is often a wide discrepancy between the letter of the law and the law's implementation. Foreign investors constantly complain about complex and opaque government procedures and a working-level attitude that is more hostile than accommodating." Instability and corruption also impede investment. The International Monetary Fund reports that residents may hold foreign exchange accounts only in specific instances. Most non-residents may hold foreign exchange accounts. Most payments and transfers are subject to prior approval by the government. There are restrictions on most capital transactions, and all real estate transactions are subject to controls.

http://www.heritage.org/research/features/index/country.cfm?id=Nepal

[HughBeaumont]

36. Right, because "free trade" enriched these people's lives completely.

Much as you want to deny it, your business practice has a human cost.

Offshoring is a ZERO SUM GAME. Job offshoring benefits the "betters" in the short and long term while the middle classes and poor of America pay the price. These are not unskilled individuals we're throwing in the trash.

There isn't any attitude here but the question of why can't the wealthy of this country help someone other than themselves? Don't even try to lay guilt at the feet of this country's labor. We're playing the game of employee musical chairs and receiving no reward from it other than a giant boot in the ass.

[ellie_belly]

38. i disagree completely

The software we write would not get written at all if US prices had to be paid. It's that simple. The world is not comprised of big corporations alone. Many small firms offshore lots of work and much of this is good. I'm not saying it's not very difficult on many Americans -- I was one of them. But I think attitudes are way too black and white. If you live outside the US, especially in the "3rd world" you see that there truly is a global economy, regardless of what Americans do or want. If you want to blame someone/thing for the US's current economic predicament blame capitalism and consumerism.

[HughBeaumont]

50. I blame corporations and the wealthy that run them.

On BOTH sides of the fence. Actually, it's not at all capitalism; it's unbridled corporatism. It's the same kind of zero-sum economics neo-libs like Thomas Freidman, Marc Andreessen and the rest of the ownership classes love; hey, they got theirs, why should they give a shit what the wage-slaves think or do? "Let them fend for themselves, they have brains."

I truly believe the wealthy of the world is more than willing to sacrifice long term economic good for today's dollar value, knowing full well that it means creating a two class society, which is what they've done and will continue to do.

Small firms would not get venture capital if they didn't offshore. They're being forced into this game to stay afloat and it kills prosperity.

What is the American supposed to do for a living? With all new technology thriving offshore while science takes a backseat to religion in America, I don't forsee any new industries, any killer apps, any whiz-bang new gadgets or inventions that will employ potentially thousands upon thousands of new workers anytime soon.

Regardless of what Americans do or want, at the same time, you cannot grind pure capitalism to a halt because of short-term gain.

[madrchsod]

30. Tata group ....this company is something else

http://www.tata.com/0_tata_worldwide/international_operations.htm#tata_associations
Tata Group | Tata Group worldwide | International operations
scroll up when page appears
they can underbid anyone in the world.....

[ChromeFoundry]

31. I have worked on three projects to clean up TATA's mess...

These were all large software applications that went over budget, over time estimates and produced under-spec results. The documentation was atrocious and the code was a poor excuse for armature quality. This is how they can underbid any other consultancies... Companies do not realize any cost savings in the end... I have yet to see this the offshore oursourcing model fruit any corporate gains... If anyone can offer a case-study in objection, I would love to read it!

[IronLionZion]

124. I work for Tata, ask me anything

we actually have lots of Americans in my group. Senator Clinton had a large role in having the company start training operations in Western NY and hire from local colleges thus providing me with a good stable job.

The work I do is most effective when done onsite so I don't have too much experience with the offshore guys. I can't speak for any other TCS team, but my team is top notch - every client appreciates us and we are unable to keep up with demand for our services.

We bill about $70 an hour per person plus 1.5 times that rate for overtime so corporations are not saving much money that way. They save money by bringing in (insourcing) specialized resources for specific projects when they need us and then let us go when we're done. I'm supremely confident that I took no one's job because my field didn't exist until recently and we're actually growing rapidly.

You'd be shocked by how much aid the Tata group sent to Hurricane Katrina relief. The company is very socially responsible and community-oriented.

[ChromeFoundry]

156. I think you missed the point...

This thread was not about a foreign company hiring on-shore workers to do on-shore work... I think that everyone here agrees that that would benefit the economy of the US and the working middle class in a general sense. The topic at hand was in the nature of an on-shore company using offshore, outsourced resources, to undercut project costs from a dollar per head count perspective.

Conversely, your argument of hiring from local colleges brings to light another legality that on-shore companies have been skirting around for years. If Tata is solely hiring H1-B Work or one of the Education Visa to fill these positions, they are breaking the law. Federal law mandates that companies that operate in the US must attempt to hire citizens. This is to thwart the mass influx of foreign nationals filling jobs that citizens should be doing. Many may say that the statement, "that citizens should be doing" is racist... It is not. Plain and simple. H1-B and Student Visa workers do not contribute to our tax base as a citizen does; The Social Security System was designed to work for citizens not short term residence; When there is a draft Visa workers would be the ones shipped off to fight the war, it will be my ass over there fighting to protect a Visa worker that now has my old job.

Oh, and are these so called "in-sourced specialist" imported, or are they citizens? If they are not local, than they are hurting the economy far greater by forcing 'brain drain' on these shores.

[area51]

33. Gotta love a thread on offshoring.

Sometimes it makes the nazis come out of the woodwork to defend the stealing of American jobs & the impoverishment of Americans. Why is it that I never hear them explain why it's necessary for people in other countries to steal our jobs -- because the nazis are saying, in effect, that others have to steal our jobs because they're too stupid to create their own.

[OhioChick]

35. I couldn't agree with you more.

BTW....I love your signature line!

[fujiyama]

37. WTF are you talking about?

Everyone living abroad that is employed by a multinational firm is "stealing" a job?

How does one steal a job anyways? And I don't see people "defending" outsourcing per se. Many of us see the reality of globalization and saying so isn't Nazi like. In fact, I find the "brown furriners stealing my jobs" hysteria much more Nazi like.

[pampango]

40. "Too stupid" or too poor to create their own jobs?

Do you also think that the poor in Detroit or south central LA are too stupid to create their own jobs or does that just apply to the poor in Mexico and India?

Now that the "Nazi" name-calling has started it is time to start wrapping this thread up. That's always a sign that whatever passed for rational discussion of issues has run its course.

Good thing this wasn't a forum on outsourcing at Columbia University. Any discussion of the issue would have been shut down by those who see Nazis behind every rock and every issue they don't agree with. We would be brawling on stage instead of talking and learning from each other.

[Megahurtz]

82. Right On area51!!!

:applause:

[pampango]

85. Damn! And I just posted #81 that those of us who have not adopted the

pure anti-outsourcing stance were only being accused of being freepers. I pointed out that is was considered obligatory to point out that those you don't agree with are fascists and RW racists. Didn't realize that the Nazi spit wad had already been thrown.

[IronLionZion]

125. "they're too stupid to create their own"

What exactly do you think they are doing?

I want to know who "stole" your job and when you filed your police report? Because it looks to me like they are creating millions of jobs. The outsourcing in the US has probably reached a plateau by now. The Indian outsourcing companies are seeing massive growth potential in China and other East Asian nations.

[Vidar]

41. I don't fault India, but we need to be confiscating assets of companies

& the executives that do this. Yes, I know I'm dreaming.

[MGD]

48. Can you say "prohibitive tariffs"? I knew you could. nt

[Vidar]

64. Only trouble is that it is our corporations which outsource that

need to be punished, not the countries that accept the jobs. Tax penalties are one solution.

[eppur_se_muova]

46. Just as Colin Powell promised them ... remember that? nt

[MGD]

49. Hoorah for the multinationals!!! Too bad so sad for everybody else.

[Rex]

51. And as long as we keep insourcing down, America will suffer.

This is because we've let stupid people run the country for way too long.

[toughboy]

54. This makes me angry. If businesses would just give Americans a chance

to show what they could do maybe they wouldn't go to India. Why is it that American businesses care less for Americans and more for other countries. Unless they are hiring immigrants who will work for a few dollars a day because he they have to feed themselves. They always get ripped off too. If they are actually doing jobs no American wants, then why not make them real jobs where they get paid at least minimum wage and they have some rights when their boss stiffs them. Republicans who run corporations are all for cheap labor and breaking the law as long as they make money. We pay taxes to take care of the people in my town, where there are lots of immigrants, so why don't these businesses get forced to pay us Americans who work some of the huge sums of money they give to their bosses or investors, so we can pay taxes to take care of everyone's family? Because Republicans seem to care only about their money. I haven't seen a raise in four years now. Somebody's making a lot of money and trying to cover it up by saying it's all being spent on immigrants. That's just crazy and piggish.

[nodehopper]

58. reason # 546456980459864509 why globalization sucks

Didn't Repukes use to be the party that wanted to protect the jobs of American workers? Or am I retroactively hallucinating? Well, that's one platform democrats should use right now--protection of American jobs. People who are losing the jobs can vote for them; people who are conscripted into the multinationals abroad are not their constituents.

[Deja Q]

152. It's rather interesting to note both parties and who is flip-flopping...

Do Republicans want to lose everything? Apparently so... so, why? The powerful usually want to keep their power...

[VirginiaDem]

59. I love the smell of isolationist protectionism in the morning

Pat Buchanan is smiling somewhere.

[pampango]

63. Welcome back, Pat. We've got a new home for you.

Pat and a few of his compatriots in both parties would like to build a tariff wall around the US that is high enough to keep out the goods that those lousy foreigners produce. Pat would also like to build a physical wall around the country (this is where some of his liberal allies will desert him) as well, to keep the foreigner themselves, not just their products, out of the country.

I like my coffee in the morning, but the sweet smell of protectionism may soon be all the aroma I can get. Too much coffee is bad for me anyway. But maybe the politicians will allow coffee imports, since we don't grow it ourselves. Wow, what a source of campaign contributions, when congressmen and senators can promise protective tariffs to companies that donate to their campaigns.

Post #58 also correctly points out that there is some cold domestic political advantage from playing the protectionism card. The question of whether the world economy benefits from the current system is irrelevant, since foreigners cannot vote. We just need to use the Rovian tactic of fear-mongering, not of terrorism, but of those hard working, oppressed foreigners.

[brentspeak]

71. If its "protectionist tariffs" you're upset about

Your attention would be better directed at China and India, since both nations levy ridiculous tarriffs against most American-made products.

How come the neolib free-traders never seem to advocate for free trade into China and India?

[pampango]

75. If they belong to the WTO and GATT, their protective tariffs are limited.

Developing countries are allowed limited, and declining, tariffs to encourage their economic development. Those small tariffs were the product of liberal thinking to help poor countries, not conservative thought.

[AngryOldDem]

123. How is being concerned about one's livelihood "protectionist"?

Don't American workers have a right to complain when their jobs are shipped off overseas for no other reason than to enhance a company's bottom line, customer service and quality of work be damned? Should these workers not worry about how they will pay their bills, or feed their kids?

What words do you have for those in the workforce, especially in IT, who are in their late 30s, early 40s or older, and won't have such an easy time of finding comparable work at comparable pay? In the words of Bush, what is your advice for how these workers can "embetter" themselves? Just as I found his words unbelievably callous, I find attitudes such as some of the ones here equally so. For many of us outsourcing is not a theoretical economic concept. It is a direct threat.

Building up one society by impoverishing another will benefit no one in the long term.

[sadiesworld]

133. Really? I detected the odor of corporate apologists.

George W Bush is ALWAYS smiling.

[robcon]

61. This is great news.

The modernization/economic growth of India is a welcome addition to the world economy and peace prospects.

Globalization works, as country after country have been learning.

[brentspeak]

69. Well, seeing as you think it's so "great"

You should volunteer to have your job shipped to India.

Don't you want to help with modernizing India and contribute to its growing economy?

[pampango]

73. I was thinking that one of us here should tell the Honda workers here

in Ohio that we are volunteering them to ship jobs back to Japan, where Hondas would all be built if it wasn't for insourcing. Let each country be an economic island. No trade, no commerce.

Come to think of it I'm not sure that I like the fact that all the goods I buy in Ohio are not produced in Ohio. If all products sold in Ohio were made here that would make our economy much stronger. I wonder why no state has tried that. (I know that are some tricky Constitutional clauses that prevent that, but there could always be an amendment, if I can gin up enough Ohio protectionism.)

[brentspeak]

103. Inapt comparison, to say the least

No one is bothered because Honda has plants here, and no one wants to raise tarrifs on Japanese imports. It's India and China that are the issues here, not Japan. Tarrifs raised on Chinese imports are not tarrifs raised on Japanese imports. In other words, you're beating a strawman.

[pampango]

106. My strawman had to do with treating the issue of outsourcing fairly.

I thought we were discussing the wisdom of putting tariffs on Indian and Chinese imports to help reduce the outsourcing of American jobs to those countries. I think it worth pointing out Japan outsources job to the US and that if outsourcing is bad for the goose, it is bad for the gander.

I trust that you are not advocating that outsourcing TO the US is fine, but FROM the US should not be permitted. That would seem to be a bit of a double standard and probably wouldn't go over too well with our trading partners. That is why, in the spirit of fairness, I was suggesting that the Honda jobs that were outsourced TO Ohio from Japan might have to be sacrificed in order to equitably reduce the outsourcing of American jobs elsewhere overseas.

[oblivious]

113. Good idea. Localisaton is one of the keys to a better world, isn't it.

[AngryOldDem]

93. I know my family does!

Can't wait for the day when it actually happens!

Honest to Christ, I can't BELIEVE some of the shit I'm reading here.

[Megahurtz]

83. You must be $$$Comfortable$$$. n/t

[HughBeaumont]

128. Yee HAW, at the price of American jobs and prosperity!

THAT'S PROGRESS!

Stop hitting and running, BTW. You make these pro-offshoring posts and are never around to clean up the mess you leave as a result.

[Deja Q]

153. Wait until your job is taken from you, regardless of your quality,

and you're not able to get another; especially when mitigating factors preclude you from obtaining furthering education (never mind how ambient circumstances only induce apathy; who's going to waste tens of thousands of dollars for essentially NOTHING?)

Will you be so blissful then?

[leesa]

62. No wonder US stocks are soaring. No overhead

[lovuian]

65. 10 million vs 50,000 whats wrong with that picture

Corporations are going to rue the day

[pampango]

67. What's the 50,000 that you are referring to? n/t

[stepnw1f]

68. All So Corporations Can Take Advantage of Cheap Wages....

Because the Indian government doesn't have the infrasture to protect workers.... just as we are losing our protection here, thanks to Republican policies with no oversight or regulation. Don't allow anyone fool you otherwise. This is not a global initiative to help spread wealth.... that's plain bullshit. Corporations could care less about such a thing... their bottom line is one thing only, PROFITS!

[fujiyama]

111. By Indian standards

those wages are pretty damn good. And those wages are allowing Indians to lead a comfortable (yes, *gasp* comfortable lifestyle). Contrary to what you may think, those people can now afford a mode of transportation, a home, a TV, and other things we have taken advantage of for decades. Now, this is of little consellation here to anyone that has lost a job to outsourcing, but it would be ridiculous to claim these jobs are there because of a "poor infrastructure to protect its workers". Indian labor standards are pretty tough actually and for years kept away any investment (it's also a reason why China still atracts more). As a democracy India does allow its people to form unions and protest.

Enacting incredibly high labor standards at once is not a way for a developing country to have high economic growth anyways. This is not to say that cotporations should be allowed to exploit workers, because if given the chance they will. But foreign investment is needed in developing countries and if the Indian government insisted that all corporations pay Indians close to what they are paid here, those corporations would leave and then there would be no jobs, rather than the decent paying ones they have now.

Frankly, I'm more impressed by a democratic nation's ability to attract investment from foreign corporations than nations that cannot and simply accept billions in foreign aid (ie India's neighbors).

[shanti]

70. charity begins at home

n/t

[earth mom]

78. Wow-this thread has been freeped beyond belief!

Those jobs USED to be American jobs! Yet people on this thread think it's okay for those jobs to be STOLEN from people here in the U.S. and taken to another country?!

:wtf:

Sorry, but only reTHUGS/FREEPERS would think it's great for American companies to save money this way! And another thing, outsourcing jobs is NO different than illegal immigrants coming to the U.S. and working at jobs that people who live here legally had been doing in the past!

THERE IS NO DAMN DIFFERENCE!

What part of STEALING do people not understand?! :grr:

[pampango]

81. Just freeped. I think you are supposed to throw in accusations of fascist

and RW racists taking the thread over. (No wait, your position seems to be that we should not spend a minute considering the fate of brown Indians and Mexicans, but should only be concerned with Americans.)

Would it be alright with you if we traded some of OUR jobs for jobs that used to BELONG to OTHER countries, e.g. Honda and Toyota plants in the US? Or do we have to keep all of our jobs and agree never to take any jobs from anywhere else? Not good for Ohio's Honda workers.

Is it alright for us to sell planes, wheat, rice, and movies to India or do the workers in those industries have to suck it up and go without jobs, because we are not allowing India to sell anything to us?

[Megahurtz]

84. You must be $$$Comfortable$$$ too.

Either that or you're from one of the Countries that these corporations are outsourcing to?
There's always a catch.:sarcasm:

[pampango]

87. I am reasonably comfortable. Thank you.

As I said elsewhere, I do have the habit of commenting on issues that I don't "live." No one in my family is fighting in Iraq or Afghanistan. I have not lost a job to outsourcing or illegal immigration. No congressman has propositioned me online, at least not yet. I have not suffered from radiation fallout from the North Korean nuclear test.

Sometimes you just can't keep an old fart quiet though. I am from Ohio, so in a way I am in one of those places benefiting from outsourcing. I don't work there, but know many people who work at the Honda factory in Marysville and I want to thank Japan for outsourcing those jobs to Ohio. If we outlaw outsourcing, there will be a lot of complaining around here.

[fujiyama]

112. Who is "stealing" the jobs?

And how does one do so anyways? Can an employer steal a job from an employee?

Are you blaming the corporation for exporting the job or the person in the other country for taking the job that are GIVEN TO THEM?

Spare the hystrionics and understand how the world works. A person who has little opportunity will take whatever is given. And for Indians, these are pretty good opportunities. You want to stop outsourcing tell you congressperson that is owned by corporations to do something about it. The next minute a thousand business lobbyists will influence him to do otherwise.

[earth mom]

116. Anyone who defends the fact that American companies are employing

people from other countries to do jobs people in the United States used to do and do well (I might add) is a freeper in my book. Just another thug shilling for big business.

FYI-Dems used to care about the workers/laborers of this country but once the DLC took a hold of the Dem party that has gone by the wayside-look no further than that DINO Hillary who thinks globalization is the best thing since sliced bread. What a total sell out!

Just because it's not your job or the other guys job who replied to my post doesn't mean it can't happen to just about ALL of us in this country. Can YOU live on minimum wage?! Thought not. :eyes:

And BTW-lobbying should be outlawed. Simple as that!

[pampango]

117. Not sure whether you are addressing outsourcing or illegal immigration.

When you refer to "American companies (that) are employing people from other countries to do jobs people in the United States used to do" that could apply to either.

As far as outsourcing is concerned, my point is that it is a two-way street and to some extent inevitable. While we outsource many jobs to other countries, we also benefit from outsourcing (I guess it would more accurately be "insourcing") when Honda, Toyota, Fujitech and many other foreign companies build factories in the US.

I support immigration, as do many here, and an amnesty for illegal immigrants already here. I wish increased immigration was legalized and then enforced. While I think that immigration is a net positive for the US economically, I realize that it costs "some" Americans their jobs or lower pay levels for relatively unskilled work. I just feel that the benefits outweigh the costs (which I freely admit I do not pay as my job is not in danger.) Sometimes policy has to hurt a few to benefit the many.

[earth mom]

118. There are NO benefits to outsourcing or illegal immigration

for the workers of the U.S.

The reason Honda etc., has built plants here in the U.S. is that it is cost effective. Cheap labor and no shipping costs. Meanwhile Detroit has bit the dust and most of the good paying union jobs there have disappeared. Also, illegal immigration has driven wages down in the skilled labor construction field. None of it is a "win win" situation for the U.S. or the workers of America that's for damn sure. I think you would find that most here on DU do NOT support Outsourcing or Illegal Immigration. There have been polls done to prove it too.

FYI-The U.S. worker has lost out on a massive scale across the board ever since Reagan was in office. Anyone who doesn't see how U.S. workers have been screwed over has blinders on and/or only cares about themselves or their friends/relatives.

[pampango]

120. There is no benefit from outsourcing, in isolation.

However, if Ohio is going to benefit from Japan, Germany and other countries building factories here, I have to grant that it is only fair that American companies build factories in those and other countries. I agree that Honda outsourced those jobs to Ohio, because the labor was cheap, by Japanese standards, as well as for shipping costs and other economic reasons.

I haven't seen the polls that you refer to. I would not be surprised by DU opposition to outsourcing. That seems to be the predominate view here at DU. From my reading of DU, though, there is plenty of support for immigration. You should see the thread about the Minutemen speech at Columbia University. You won't see much support there for anyone who supports cracking down on illegal immigration. There are also many who want to crack down on the employers, if not the immigrants themselves, but there seems to be more diversity of opinion on immigration than on outsourcing.

[earth mom]

130. Most DUers don't support the Minutemen aka racist jerks.

Instead most around here, including myself, feel that employers should be made to pay living wages to ALL workers and if they don't then those employers should be heavily fined until they comply. Also, the polls I'm talking about were posted months ago, but feel free to do a search. I'm thinking that the number was in the 80% range.

[HughBeaumont]

127. DFI isn't the same thing as offshoring.

No one in these countries lose jobs as a result of Honda's, Toyota's, Nissan's DFI (Direct Foreign Investment) here. I wrote a letter to the Plain Dealer's Bush-favoring reporter Stephen Koff who tried to make just such a link in a 2004 article for the purpose of hurting John Kerry:

Informative article about "insourcing", yet there's a few exceptions I have to take on it, particularly based on the opinions given by the Honda workers interviewed.

There seems to be a confusion of issues here between the agenda relating to the curbing of offshoring that John Kerry is trying to bring to the American people and what is happening with companies such as Honda and Nissan building plants here.

INsourcing is the result of a foreign company seeking to EXPAND it's market. In other words, these companies are creating work here to market their product IN AMERICA. Yes, they're creating jobs for Americans, but at the same time, these companies are not taking away jobs from Japan, Germany, England, etc. In turn, they're probably creating more jobs for their home countries since they have capital to expand and reinvest in their businesses. It's money that's going into TWO economies. Unlike American CEOs, who just pocket the cash and not expand or create new jobs/products to replace the outgoing ones (studies show that the new jobs being created lately pay 21 percent LESS than those of ten years ago), these foreign companies know that, labor costs be damned, expansion will only HELP their business in the long run. Small wonder why they're gaining the lion's share of the automotive market here.

When an American company OUTsources or OFFshores, what results is a displacement, not an expansion; solely for short-term, quarterly-profit gain. American jobs are TAKEN AWAY and given to cheaper overseas labor. When core competencies are shifted by already profitable "US-based" corporations like Microsoft, HP, Cisco, Lehman Brothers, Intel, etc; when manufacturing work by Ford, GE, Marconi, Pillowtex, Dow, DuPont, etc is shifted offshore; these companies aren't looking to create a market for their products in foreign countries. I seriously doubt that Indians, who make about $5000 a year on average, and Chinese, who make even less, could afford $10,000 Oracle software, HP Printers, SUVs and such. Multi-National corporations would have to sell their product at Indian-level wages - hardly an economic gain compared to the way they soak Americans with their inflated prices. In reality, American MNCs are offshoring to escape paying liveable wages to Americans, to escape paying health care costs, to escape paying benefits, to escape complying to American workplace safety standards and to generally escape paying taxes (incorporating in Bermuda also helps in that regard, but that's another story). While foreign corporations INVEST, American companies and their executives EXPLOIT for their own personal gain. They remain crooked and callous, only looking out for themselves and their lottery-esque pay in today's dollars rather than the long-term health of the American infrastructure.

Are you going to tell these people that offshoring is good for the economy?
http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/81/offshore_profile...

And are jobs being created HERE as a result of this offshoring? Are new products being made? Are new killer apps/industries evolving to replace those technologies leaving? March notwithstanding, we're still down 2 million jobs not counting people who have given up completely. The unemployment rate ROSE last month. The number of part-time workers also increased. The growth of the labor force has surpassed the economy's ability to accomodate it through jobs. Without anything to move to and with no net jobs being created, the overpriced American worker remains the loser in a ZERO SUM GAME. What I find disgusting about it all is that the same people who decry how "expensive" American labor is see NO problem with CEOs earning three lotteries a year, sealed and approved by board members (who are, not coincidentally, OTHER CEOs and execs).

http://proliberty.com/observer/20031110.htm

http://www.the7thfire.com/Politics%20and%20History/Norm...

According to those two articles, since 1986, we've LOST over 15 million manufacturing/steel/automotive/textile jobs to offshore plants. I think that kind of absorbs the OFII's little 6.4 million number more than two-fold. Also, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, manufacturing overall hasn't hired a single new worker IN 44 STRAIGHT MONTHS.

(Incidentally, if I were Mr. Spangler, Mr. Gilliland and the other several million employed in these auto/mfg plants, I wouldn't be laying false praises on GWB just yet. Automation is going to be hitting these places in the next decade, something good-ol pro-corporate OFII doesn't tell you, and the possible reason why these places have no retiree benefits or pension plans (according to the union representative quoted in your article).)

Let's not jump to the conclusion that just because foreign companies invest here, that means it's the same thing as an American MNC offshoring manufacturing, or even worse, core competency IT jobs. These American businesses aren't using cost savings for the purpose of penetrating foreign markets and jobs here are lost as a result. Yes, offshoring has only cost America 5% of our tech jobs today, but offshoring is estimated by its proponents to be growing at around 25% or so a year. A UC Berkeley study estimates it will take 14 million or more jobs by 2015*. (The New Wave of Outsourcing, Fisher Center for Real Estate and Urban Economics.) Is going to college for four to eight years only to come out to a career that followed it's predecessor offshore an ideal society to live in?

Let's not confuse INsourcing and OFFshoring. Just because one happens doesn't make the other right or any less deadly to progress of the middle class.


Just wanted to clear up a few things - thank you for reading.

[Anakin Skywalker]

163. Wish You Could Apply This Line Across the Board

on other issues too.

"Sometimes policy has to hurt a few to benefit the many".

Maybe you support torture?

[pampango]

164. Wow. That is an interesting leap.

I was actually thinking that most government policies hurt some people, while they help others. Criminal laws hurt criminals and benefit the rest of us. Raising taxes on the rich will hurt a few (the rich) to benefit the many (the rest of us.) (I'll grant you that the rich may consider raising their taxes to be a form of torture, but I am not sure that is what you were referring to.)

Building a highway will hurt the person whose house has to be bulldozed, while helping the many of us who use the road. Some people pay Social Security taxes, so that others can receive benefits. As you might imagine, I could come up with a few more examples.

I am surprised that statement that a "policy has to hurt a few to benefit the many" is even controversial. Perhaps it might be quicker for you to inform me of the government policies that are purely beneficial to everyone or those that involve the same level of cost and benefit for every person.

[samsingh]

144. man, are you mixed up on what a freeper is.

[progressivebydesign]

143. Thank you GoldenRule. I'm ready to slam my head on the keyboard!!

WTF has happened to DU in the past few years???? I've been here since January 2001, and something's gone terribly wrong! I'd never thought i'd see the day when people were cheering on outsourcing.

[Deja Q]

155. If you bother to look at a certain freeper website,

you'll find a LOT of people who are AGAINST offshoring as much as plenty of DUers here do.

Also, corporations and citizens should be working to improve America. Not their own personal wallets. (and plenty of illegals would rather say 'fuck off' to their own country when coming here just to hoist the flag of the country they had no qualms vacating on US government property... I'm still trying to fathom the 'why' for that!!)

Or maybe JFK was wrong, in which case I need to start rethinking any number of opinions and beliefs...

[Tyo]

86. Have they sent those mangos yet? n/t

[Spinoza]

102. Good for the people of India.

After so much poverty and misery they deserve a break. Lets hope India can finally break out of its ancient cycle of hunger and destitution.

[twaddler01]

104. Sweet, just wait until my call center job goes there...

Blah.

[gulfcoastliberal]

119. Oh boy! See, now we're "investor class"- use your buyout/unemployment

to buy into IIF Moran Stanley India fund! Yay! Oops,you need food, electrcity,water, medicine... hmmm... guess we forgot about that in our "ownershipsociety". :sarcasm:

[Xenotime]

121. This is another example of * ruining the US economy..

I am tired of all these job leaving the US. When you talk on the phone, you can't understand what they are saying. They can't understand what you are saying. All they do is read from their little book of questions. Then they boast about how great their service it. Give me a freakin break.

[barb162]

122. I hate seeing American workers losing their jobs, homes, going

bankrupt,losing their benefits, etc.

[Yavin4]

126. Don't Blame the Corporations nor The Government Blame The People

I may get flamed here, but here goes. No ITer in this country that lost their job to outsourcing has any right whatsoever to complain. In the 80s and 90s, when ITers were in high demand, IT pros refused to form a labor union to protect themselves from corporate abuses, much like mfg workers did in the early half of the 20th century. They took a gamble that all they need to protect their jobs was strong UNIX skills, and they lost.

Moreover, a majority of the American people vote repeatedly for "pro-business" politicians in both parties, and you are getting "pro-business" trade policies as a result. Outsouring ONLY benefits the large multi-national corporations that practice it. As soon as a cheaper labor market emerges, India will be toast, just like Americans.

In the long run, as a Liberal and quasi-Socialist, outsourcing will be eventually be good for all Americans because without high paying and high benefitted jobs, the American people will make more and more demands on their government to be more "pro-labor" and "pro-American middle class".

[fujiyama]

150. You make some interesting and valid points

but even if IT unions existed, these jobs would likely have left. US based multinations are notorious for short term thinking. It's ultimately all about quarterly profits. After all, a lot of manufacturing was unionized. That didn't stop GM and others from moving factories to China.

But people do deserve blame especially for buying cheap shit. People buy junk, expect cheap prices, and then whine that the custoner service sucks. And while that bitching is certainly understandable, the poor service shouldn't be a surprise. It's a Wal Mart society.

If outsourcing bothers a person so much, they should simply boycott companies that outsource...and that boycott extends to buying the stuff in the first place (not just the retailer)...and try to vote for politicians that will enact penalties for those companies that do.

But as long as cutting costs keeps a company competetive, jobs will leave. And while I've read and heard first hand that the quality of the service you get from outsourced work is often not that great, companies have determined that even with this lack of efficiency, it's still much cheaper to hire abroad.

[Yavin4]

158. IT Union vs Mfg. Union

You cannot compare a prospective IT union to a mfg. union. In IT, there's a strong element of specialized education and training that a textile or auto union would not have. An IT union would be more comparable to a bar assoc. for lawyers or an AMA for doctors. Second, mfg. unions at least slowed the pace of outsourcing. There are still auto workers in Detroit, and they're still getting pensions and health care. They weren't dumped into the streets and have to fold shirts at the Gap.


IT outsouring became popular because the growth rate for theIT sector dropped off from 25%/yr. So, in the hopes of regaining the same growth rate, they outsourced labor to India.