Blair, Prodi voice concern over Muslim veils

[sabra]

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L17838565.htm

Blair, Prodi voice concern over Muslim veils

LONDON, Oct 17 (Reuters) - Two European leaders separately voiced concern at the Muslim veil on Tuesday, with Britain's Tony Blair calling it a "mark of separation" and Italy's Romano Prodi saying it should not be used to hide behind.

Both leaders said the wearing of full veils presented difficulties for their nations with Muslim communities and immigrants needing to integrate into Western societies.

"It is a mark of separation and that's why it makes other people from outside the community feel uncomfortable," Prime Minister Tony Blair said when asked his opinion on the veil, which has become a hot topic in Britain in recent weeks.

Former Foreign Secretary Jack Straw said earlier this month he asked Muslim women in his constituency to remove their veils when they come to see him. And a Muslim teaching assistant was suspended over her refusal to remove a veil which left only her eyes visible.

In Italy, Prime Minister Romano Prodi told Reuters it was a matter of common sense that people show their faces in public.

[saigon68]

1. The Crusade Begins

[Taverner]

2. Personally, and I know I'm going to get flamed...

I take offense to all public displays of religion, whether it be a hajib, a burkha, a crucifix or a fish decal on a car...

I believe not only in the freedom of religion, but freedom from religion. This means every cross necklace or hajib constitutes a form of harassment.

But hey, that's me.

[savemefromdumbya]

4. how would you like it rare, medium or well done?

but don't you hate it when freedom is restricted in any way?

[Taverner]

6. IT's a slippery slope, that's for sure

And I favor erring on the side of freedom...

But intolerance (which is what all relgious displays are) cannot be tolerated.

[PsychoDad]

15. So, it's my intolerance if I should wear a star of david,

A pentacle or kufi and you are offended?

What if I wear a pink triangle and someone is offended, am I still intolerant?

If you are offended by my "No more wars" Tee-Shirt, am I still being intolerant?

Perhaps it isn't the ones wearing these things that are being intolerant?

About tolerance,

I was talking with a wonderful Holocaust survivor by the name of Eva Kor, and she said something that has had a deep impact upon me and I think I will take it to the grave, I'm paraphrasing here due to my lack of memory.

" I don't want tolerance, I want respect, and I want respect for my rights as a human being. Think about this, do you simply ant to be 'tolerated', or do you want to be respected? Respected as a fellow human being, as I respect all my fellow human beings."

Part of that respect is respecting their right to self expression, through a cross, pink triangle or multi-colored hair.

[Teaser]

8. So what if someone finds your face to be harrassment?

Should we clap you back in the mask and throw you in the tower?

[Taverner]

12. The question comes down to whether or not public display of religion

Is harassment or not. Certainly you couldn't put up a What Would Jesus Do calendar in the workplace (thankfully),

[SoCalDem]

13. I'm with you... (hoists up fire extinguisher)

Religion belongs in the home and in the place of worship...NOT in the PUBLIC DOMAIN.

Eventually there will be a showdown, and with the climate that's been gonned up, it may result in some ugly exchanges.

I can see some governments issuing ultimatums at some point.. "either join us, or go back to where your customs & dress are the norm"..

It's the same argument that right wingers here are toying with, but our constitution is getting in their way. Other countries without a constitution like ours, may play hardball with them.

[savemefromdumbya]

3. Blair is a disgrace

these people have no respect for other people's religions!

[DocSavage]

10. You'r funny

especially considering how many christian bashing threads there are on this board. Take this one for instance: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2411059

[Benhurst]

5. I wish Cherie Blair would cover her face

with a veil, a sack or something.

[muriel_volestrangler]

7. Wearing a niqab for a day: 'Even other Muslims turn and look at me'

Muslim journalist Zaiba Malik had never worn the niqab. But with everyone from Jack Straw to Tessa Jowell weighing in with their views on the veil, she decided to put one on for the day. She was shocked by how it made her feel - and how strongly strangers reacted to it

I look at myself in my full-length mirror. I'm horrified. I have disappeared and somebody I don't recognise is looking back at me. I cannot tell how old she is, how much she weighs, whether she has a kind or a sad face, whether she has long or short hair, whether she has any distinctive facial features at all. I've seen this person in black on the television and in newspapers, in the mountains of Afghanistan and the cities of Saudi Arabia, but she doesn't look right here, in my bedroom in a terraced house in west London. I do what little I can to personalise my appearance. I put on my oversized man's watch and make sure the bottoms of my jeans are visible. I'm so taken aback by how dissociated I feel from my own reflection that it takes me over an hour to pluck up the courage to leave the house.

I've never worn the niqab, the hijab or the jilbab before. Growing up in a Muslim household in Bradford in the 1970s and 80s, my Islamic dress code consisted of a school uniform worn with trousers underneath. At home I wore the salwar kameez, the long tunic and baggy trousers, and a scarf around my shoulders. My parents only instructed me to cover my hair when I was in the presence of the imam, reading the Qur'an, or during the call to prayer. Today I see Muslim girls 10, 20 years younger than me shrouding themselves in fabric. They talk about identity, self-assurance and faith. Am I missing out on something?

...

Things don't get much better at the National Portrait Gallery. I suppose I was half expecting the cultured crowd to be too polite to stare. But I might as well be one of the exhibits. As I float from room to room, like some apparition, I ask myself if wearing orthodox garments forces me to adopt more orthodox views. I look at paintings of Queen Anne and Mary II. They are in extravagant ermines and taffetas and their ample bosoms are on display. I look at David Hockney's famous painting of Celia Birtwell, who is modestly dressed from head to toe. And all I can think is that if all women wore the niqab how sad and strange this place would be. I cannot even bear to look at my own shadow. Vain as it may sound, I miss seeing my own face, my own shape. I miss myself. Yet at the same time I feel completely naked.

...

Maybe I will feel more comfortable among women who dress in a similar fashion, so over 24 hours I visit various parts of London with a large number of Muslims - Edgware Road (known to some Londoners as "Arab Street"), Whitechapel Road (predominantly Bangladeshi) and Southall (Pakistani and Indian). Not one woman is wearing the niqab. I see many with their hair covered, but I can see their faces. Even in these areas I feel a minority within a minority. Even in these areas other Muslims turn and look at me. I head to the Central Mosque in Regent's Park. After three failed attempts to hail a black cab, I decide to walk.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,,1924101,00.html

Interesting. I think it's only certain towns in England where the niqab is starting to get popular - London, which is very diverse, doesn't seem to have many people wearing it. This journalist obviously doesn't like wearing it at all in a place where it makes you stand out.

[Lance_Boyle]

9. All those crucifixes are 'marks of separation' too, right?

And how about sideburn curlicues and yarmulkes? Very separatist markings. And the Hindu red dot on the forehead? Separatist marking. Full beards? Separatist markings. Why don'tcha just slip right on down that slope, Bliar.

[dipsydoodle]

11. Safest thing might be

for it become a unisex fashion statement and everyone wear them. Try sorting that fucking mess out at an airport check in desk.

It's worth noting that their attire is not part of their religion.

[Igel]

16. They believe the niqab is part of their religion.

Therefore it is. Same for the hijab, for the burqa, or a yarmulke.

I don't believe there is any Platonic Form that is "Islam" and that all of the Muslims are seeking to embody the same Form. They have different beliefs, they believe that their god and their prophet said different things and have different requirements. They may delude themselves (except for the takfiri) that there is a single Islam, but that doesn't mean we have to.

Sunnis and Shi'a kill each other in the name of their god and following the precepts of Muhammed, and yet say they have the same Allah and Muhammed. They killed Xians saying their god is greater, but claim that Xians have the same god. Therefore god is greater than god, if you take the PR at face value.

They don't. Don't buy the spin.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

14. Everybody misses the point.

Muslim women dress like this:



This, on the other hand, is only required by fucked-up crazy fundamentalism sects:



Both could be understood as "marks of separation," but only one is fucked up.

[Igel]

17. So you get to define Islam?

Wow.

The Prophet Muhammed's on DU.

Oddly, a bunch of people claiming to be your followers took the comments about the niqab to be insulting Islam. Straighten them out, will you?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

18. Not only that, but I define Christianity too!

See the Xian analog of the burqa:

http://www.wholesomewear.com/

In a beach, just as fucked up.

[smirkymonkey]

24. Now that is some evil shit.

[dolo amber]

20. I was pretty sure the fact that it's the culture of the countries

where Islam is practiced rather than the religion itself which dictates that form of dress was mentioned at least A HUNDRED BILLION TIMES around here the last couple days. Perhaps you just missed it. :hi:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

21. The upper picture is kinda, sorta, a minimum standard.

They demand covered heads. Every know and then I see women in the street with attire similar to that. Being a dirty liberal elitist, I like to read about things not familiar to my little world and sometimes, just sometimes, I, you know, know facts.

I didn't know that was a bad thing.

[Igel]

22. The problem is that many Christian doctrines are,

ultimately, cultural relics. You wind up saying that Episcopalians, Catholics, Presbyterians, Baptists, and many others don't fit in the definition of "Christian."

Rather like saying that I don't think Mexicans obiviously fit under the definition of "Latino" if they speak Spanish but are 100% Mixtec. No "Latin" blood, after all.

Silly semantic game that's only interpretable as a statement of fact by the All-Knowing/All-Powerful One (whatever), or as a statement of faith.

I have no strong beliefs about Islam. Except that, as a linguist, I look at how communities use words when formulating definitions. "Islam" has a definition in which a sufficiently large community of speakers believe that it requires a fairly complete covering. I've known Muslims that believed that only a hair covering was required; and others that believed only 'modesty' was needed.

Polysemy is a useful concept.

[leesa]

19. Wow. It's just like the hysteria that was created over Jews before WWII

It's normalizing bigotry.

[IndianaGreen]

23. I am concerned about the child abuse shown on "Jesus Camp"

Christian brainwashing is identical to the Islamic madrassas funded by Saudi money.