Gorbachev compares proposed U.S. border wall to Berlin Wall

[truthpusher]

http://www.mywesttexas.com/site/printerFriendly.cfm?brd=2288&dept_id=475626&newsid=17342695



10/18/2006

Gorbachev compares proposed U.S. border wall to Berlin Wall

Bob Campbell-Staff Writer
Midland Reporter-Telegram

(snip)

"You remember President Reagan standing in Berlin and saying, 'This wall should be torn down,'" said the 1990 Nobel Peace Prize winner. "Now the United States seems to be building almost the Wall of China between itself and this other nation with which it has been associated for many decades and has had cooperation and interaction with.

"I think what is really needed are ideas and proposals about how to improve that cooperation and work out all of those issues regarding immigration flows. I don't think the U.S. is so weak and so much lacks confidence as not to be able to find a different solution.

"Maybe if global warming results in melting the ice in Greenland, there will be an island where those who would like to separate themselves from the rest of the world could live," he quipped. "But then of course we'll have to work this out with Denmark."

(snip)

Gorbachev criticized the U.S. and the current Bush administration for what he said is a lack of support. Comparing current conditions to those before the 1991 collapse of the Soviet Union, he said, "The political and social situation is difficult and the standard of living is worse for many people.

"As for economic, political and religious freedoms, we can say our country has pulled itself out of the past and is a free country. Unfortunately, there are some in the world who would not want Russia to move rapidly and stand on its feet and be a strong country, including quite a few people in this country and the administration.


(snip)

link: http://www.mywesttexas.com/site/printerFriendly.cfm?brd=2288&dept_id=475626&newsid=17342695

[aquart]

1. Not Hadrian's wall? Not the Great Wall of China?

Another idiot project that will be nothing but a huge waste of money.

Does anyone want to bet we outsource it and it gets built by low wage Mexicans?

[Igel]

8. At least Hadrian's Wall and the Great Wall are

more appropriate comparisons.

Can Humpy really be that ignorant of the Berlin Wall's purpose?

[happyslug]

11. There is strong archaeological evidence that says ALL did the same job

i.e. there were to keep People IN, not to keep them out. Napoleon once said Troops on the Border may be useful to keep out smugglers, they are useless to defend against an invasion. The same with the Great Wall and Hardian's Wall, they seem to be design more to prevent people, as individuals, from crossing has opposed to Armies from Crossing. Given the great hardship for low income people, in both China when the Great wall was built (and rebuilt in the 1600s) and the similar situation in Britain during the Roman Empire, the walls seems to have been built to keep people IN, not OUT. This is Unlike the ROman "Lines" in North Africa which could easily be crossed by anyone, but the Roman Army quickly knew if someone did and reacted. No walls, just observation towers with communications with the interior. That is all you need for Defense (Provided you have real fornications to the rear to protect your troops). You do NOT need walls to keep armies out (and walls tend to be useless unless to protect an camp or town). On the other hand you do need walls to keep people IN. Recent Archaeological evidence seems to indicate such intentions (With ground obstacles to the REAR of Hardian's Wall as opposed to in Front of it).

[Odin2005]

12. IIRC the Great Wall was to keep raiders from getting away with the loot.

The Great Wall was too long to be manned for it's entire length, it's purpose was to make it harder for the raiders to get out, giving the Chinese more time to catch them and get the loot back.

[happyslug]

14. Sorry, that was not the case.

Raiding parties tended to raid in areas they could attack and withdraw from. You pushed over the walls and then put guards at that point (with spare horses) to hold till area the raid was over. The raider then would withdraw on its own supply lines, leaving a devastated countryside for the Chinese Troops (Thus no supplies for the Chinese).

How you catch raiders is first deny them supplies i.e. force the local peasants to hide they food and livestock deny re-supply to the raiders. You then sent a force BEHIND the raiding parties which pounces on the raiders as they return home. You do NOT need a wall for this tactic, in fact a wall gets in your way for it restricts how the anti-raider force will operates. Given the different people of the Steppes, often the best force was a rival tribe of the raiding tribe (You told them of the raid, how they were returning and paid them by the loot carried by the Raiding tribe).

Furthermore, when the raiding was most extensive (For example before and during the Mongol Conquest), the wall seems to have been abandoned. The wall is first built by the First Chinese Emperor as his brand of tyranny increases. It seems to be abandoned right afterward (Through used off and on depending on how much rights Chinese Peasants had in China, as those rights increased or decreased the wall was abandoned or manned). Marco Polo does not even mention the wall in his books on his travels in China. Even if Marco Polo stole most of his information from a Moslem trader (one theory on his accounts) it is clear the book is about someone's actual travel to China and still the Wall is NOT mentioned. Why? During the Mongol Conquest something like 40% of the Chinese people had died, and with that die off you had an acute labor shortage. With a labor Shortage the rights of Peasants went up and thus no need for the wall.

The wall is next rebuilt by the Ming Dynasty that succeeded the Mongols, but not at first, only after about a century of rule when labor unrest seems to pop up in China. Under the Manchus, you had increasing peasant unrest do to declining rights of peasants, but the Manchus encouraged Chinese Settlement beyond the wall so the Manchus used other methods to keep the Chinese Peasants from escaping to the Steeps of Siberia.

I have seen pictures of the wall stretching between two close peaks, both within arrow shot of the valley in between. If you wanted to stop a raiding force you just man the peaks and shoot down the raiders as they go through the valley. No need to build a wall in that location UNLESS IT IS TO PREVENT PEOPLE SNEAKING THROUGH THE VALLEY. Large forces are easy to be seen and handled by two forts, but if you want to prevent people SNEAKING through the valley, you have to fence it or wall it. This pattern fallows the whole concept of the wall, it is a barrier against small groups of people sneaking through the area NOT large raiding parties.

Sorry, how the Great Wall was built, when it was manned and abandoned, its construction and its location all indicate a wall to keep people IN, not keep people OUT.

[Odin2005]

15. Ahhhhhhh! thanks for the info!

[bluerum]

2. What does he know? Damn freedom loving pinko commie. nt

[BootinUp]

3. Getting lectured from Gorby, hows that feel GW? n/t

[OKthatsIT]

7. Globalists vs. NeoCons...just ask James Baker

[CatholicEdHead]

16. "Old Russia"

He cannot see into Gorby's soul like he can Putin's.

[JVS]

4. Men who destroy their countries during their reign shouldn't expect...

others to heed their advice.

[Benhurst]

5. Yeah, he was a real failure; but then it's hard to fill

Joe Stalin's shoes.

Thank god we've got Dubya. He may be dumb and weak, but he in the Crazy Joe tradition.

[JVS]

6. Bush and Gorby both ruin(ed) their countries.

The only advice Gorby can offer is that of somone who finished up telling another loser to take it easier.

[Casablanca]

10. The capitalist appointee Yeltsin destroyed the country, not Gorbachev

Gorbachev wanted to replace the corrupt, centralized government of the USSR with a socialist democracy that was at least partially accountable to the people. The drunkard Yeltsin basically let the country be taken over by anyone with enough money, leading to the economic and political chaos they have now.

Russian society has never lived under a functional representative democracy for any substantial length of time, so Gorbachev possibly had too much faith in his people to work with him to achieve this. But he does get major points in my book for at least trying. And when I look at how many Americans are more than willing to turn their back on any kind of democracy here - when the system has already been provided for them - I don't see that America has much to complain about with Gorby's comments.

[JVS]

17. Gorbachev let shit get out of hand and that's how Yeltsin got in

If you reign so poorly that a coup can take place, you suck. Yeltsin sucked too, but to overlook Gorby's failure to obey rule number one (keep the state intact) is ridiculous. Gorby was also a dumbfuck for being willing to negotiate in good faith with the West and Reagan in particular.

[Casablanca]

9. I wonder if Gorby ever regrets giving up the dictatorship of the USSR

Considering the contentious circus of tyrant-wannabes his abdication of the role resulted in, both in Russia and here.

[Odin2005]

13. Gorby had no choice, really.

The hardliner coup against Gorby basically killed the last shred of credibility the Soviet government had, Yeltsen came and filled the gap and became the de facto leader of what was left of the USSR.

[slaveplanet]

18. yet no mention

of China walling off North Korea, Saudi
Arabia putting up a ridiculous wall in the desert to seal off Iraq, and he forgets to mention Israel's wall builders. All much farther along and more formidable than anything the US has put forth.

Seeing as how a large segment of the Texas population feel about communists in general, I'm sure this article will go over well down there.