Judge Dismisses Charges Against Woman Who Killed (Shot) Her Unborn Child

[truthpusher]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/LegalCenter/story?id=2585102&page=1

Judge Dismisses Charges Against Woman Who Killed Her Unborn Child

Pregnant Mother Shot Herself in the Stomach, Killing Her Child, Va. Judge Rules Causing Your Own Abortion Is Not a Crime

By LILLIAN RUIZ and LARA SETRAKIAN,
ABC Law & Justice Unit

Oct. 19, 2006 — - A Virginia judge has dismissed charges today against a young woman who shot herself in order to kill her unborn child in a case that has angered anti-abortion activists.

Tammy Skinner was a poor, desperate 22-year-old with two young children and another one on the way.

She said her boyfriend wouldn't pay for an abortion, so she carried her pregnancy to term.


Then she did the unthinkable.


Prosecutors say that on the morning she was scheduled to give birth, Skinner drove to an auto dealer's parking lot, took a gun, and shot herself in the belly, killing the fetus in an act of self-abortion. Skinner was charged with carrying out an illegal abortion.

Is Skinner a criminal?

Today, a Virginia judge said no. The charges were dropped, her case dismissed.

Should he have ruled otherwise?

(snip)

link: http://abcnews.go.com/US/LegalCenter/story?id=2585102&page=1

[kestrel91316]

1. Well, regardless, I don't think we'll be seeing any epidemic of

this sort of thing.

[MidwestTransplant]

15. Nah, better pass a law. Otherwise so many others will do it.

Very sad story though. Clearly the woman had major problems beyond money.

[ecstatic]

2. I'm pro choice, but I believe in time limits

Surely she could have gotten help somewhere, and had the abortion when it was just a clump of cells. However, she was probably just very unaware of her options. Once you're on the morning of labor, I'd say adoption is a real option. What she did was murder.

[Iris]

6. this is less about abortion and more about desperation

An unplanned pregnancy is devasting because our society makes it so. I think more attention needs to be paid to making a society where this sort of situation deos not result in such drastic measures. And I don't think simply prescribing adoption is the answer.

See post #3

[pnwmom]

38. and maybe mental illness.

[Iris]

Yes, good point.

But as I pointed out below, women get no slack for mental illness, while men returning from war can kill their girlfriends and cook them and get all kinds of sympathy.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2425180

[cap]

17. adoption is not a real option....

for all women all the time....

Not every baby makes it into a loving home.

[greccogirl]

25. This one made it into

a grave. I'm sorry but I've got a real problem with this.

[Yupster]

35. Maybe not, but I'd take my odds

of finding my way into a loving family over being shot and killed.

[cap]

89. my mother's family didn't make it into a loving home

during the Great Depresssion... They worked as child slaves...and were valued only for the money they brought in.

I'm not condoning blasting yourself in the stomach... but I can understand the desparation.

[DerBeppo]

186. Insanity

I'm not sure, but I think child slavery in the US is probably at a lower rate than during the depression. That comparison may be a slight stretch.

[Patchuli]

162. From an adoptee

I say thank you for that truth, usually unheard by the unadopted...

[all.of.me]

233. ditto

unless you were relinquished at birth, you have no idea what it's like, loving family or not.

[superconnected]

245. yeah, so kill them. How about killing newborn kittens and puppies too?

you just don't know where they'll end up.

I'm pro abortion, but I'm not going to go overboard with flawed reasoning like yours, to defend it.

It doesn't help the very reasonable cause.

[Zhade]

31. Not your body, not your life - not your choice.

NT!

[Yupster]

36. I'm pro-choice, but

the "my body" explanation doesn't cut it with me the day of birth. I wouldn't think a woman should be able to kill her baby the hour after its birth or the hour before either. There just isn't any difference. It's the same kid an hour before birth and an hour after birth.

I know since my kid was born via Caesarian. I saw his sonogram the minute before the doctor went in and I saw him the minute after the doctor went in. It was the same kid. That much I'm sure of.

[Scout]

92. inside my body, it is my choice n/t

[Megahurtz]

109. I have to agree.

No matter how others look at the situation, those are the facts.

[BurningDog]

159. Does that really apply in this case?

The baby was going to be outside of her body either way on that day. Her reasoning for doing this wasn't that her health was in danger. In fact, there would have been much damage to her delivering a baby than a gunshot wound to the stomach followed by a delivery.

If she would have done the same thing hours later, it'd be a clear case of murder.

Was this an illegal abortion by the letter of the law? No, probably not.
Was it morally abhorrible? Absolutely.

This isn't the poster child case to fly the "inside the body, my choice" flag.

[LostinVA]

167. Oh boy -- yet another one

Hope you never Gert pregnant and... oh wait, YOU can't get pregnant.

I notice all the harsh words you had for the "father"... oh, wait, you didn't mention HIM.

[BurningDog]

172. I can guarantee you with 100% certainty

that if were to get pregnant, the last thing I would do is put a gun to my stomach and pull the trigger. There is no possible way this was the best course of action for her mental, physical, or emotional health.

There is obviously blame to be placed on other people, but in the end it was her choice and her responsibility. I can sympathize with somebody taken desperate actions when pushed to the edge, however I think making this a "her body, her choice" case hurts the abortion rights movement as a whole.

[TankLV]

175. You can't. Case closed. All else is BULLSHIT.

You're a MAN - it's NOT your "choice".

[lastliberalintexas]

193. No, you can't

You can't guarantee anything on this subject until you've actually faced an unwanted, unplanned pregnancy. And since you're male, I guess you're lucky that you'll never be able to speak with such certainty on this subject.



And before you start, yes I've faced an unplanned pregnancy and did the exact opposite of what I'd always thought I'd do. You just never know until you're actually in that situation.

[Scout]

182. no one is saying she made the best choice she could have made....

but that is beside the point. Our opinions don't really matter.

And I was also pointing out that yes, in fact it IS HER BODY that the fetus is INSIDE OF so just because someone may think that a fetus has its own separate body, that is simply not the case.

Viable or not, the fetus must be "gotten out of" the pregnant woman's body somehow, which I'm sure you'll agree under the best circumstances can be traumatic and life threatening. It is up to her to decide how that will happen.

[piedmont]

194. agree & disagree

I don't think what she did was murder either, because she seems clearly to have been mentally ill, stemming from abuse and desperation.


And I was also pointing out that yes, in fact it IS HER BODY that the fetus is INSIDE OF so just because someone may think that a fetus has its own separate body, that is simply not the case.

The fetus' cells are genetically distinct from the mother. The fetus' blood supply is separate from the mother. The only thing the mother is supplying is oxygen and food. And when the fetus is capable of life while getting air and food outside the mother's body, it is a life that deserves to be protected, as long as those protections don't supersede the mother's right to live.

Viable or not, the fetus must be "gotten out of" the pregnant woman's body somehow, which I'm sure you'll agree under the best circumstances can be traumatic and life threatening. It is up to her to decide how that will happen.

Abortion of a full-term fetus is less traumatic than birth in what way? If they are equally traumatic, then the ONLY reason to abort is to not have a live baby hanging around. And even that reason doesn't make sense in states that have passed laws making it perfectly legal to drop a baby off at a "safe haven" and never see it again.

I am pro-choice, but extending the abortion option to the verge of delivery is absurdly extreme.

[Scout]

203. you keep creating all your little scenarios about cells and blood supply

the fact still remains that the fetus is inside of the body of a real woman.

You keep making up things you think I'm saying. I'm stating a simple fact.




edit typo

[piedmont]

214. you do realize I've only replied to you twice?

how am I repeatedly "making things up" as you imply?

The facts I brought up about genotype and food and oxygen supply aren't "scenarios." They are facts. That a fetus is inside of a mother until delivery or abortion is also fact. That the fetus is somehow not a person until outside of the mother is open to debate.

And I do not mean to make up what you're saying. If I misinterpreted I'm sorry. But your statement above


And I was also pointing out that yes, in fact it IS HER BODY that the fetus is INSIDE OF so just because someone may think that a fetus has its own separate body, that is simply not the case.

"Viable or not, the fetus must be "gotten out of" the pregnant woman's body somehow, which I'm sure you'll agree under the best circumstances can be traumatic and life threatening. It is up to her to decide how that will happen."

means (to my mind, at least) that yes, you support a woman's right to abortion for any reason right up to the minute of delivery. If that's not what you believe then please set me straight.

[ileus]

234. Too bad she missed her liver and or kindneys...

[TankLV]

174. Yupster - another MAN dictating what a WOMAN should do...

typical...

[piedmont]

187. At some point the fetus/baby has its OWN body

Many people, even pro-choice people, believe that is some time before birth, say at the time when the baby would be able to survive outside the mother, and the process of extracting it by abortion is equally traumatic (physically) to the mother as live birth.
In other words, if it's just as much trauma to abort as to deliver, and delivery results in a live birth, the baby has its own life.

[Scout]

189. and it is STILL inside someone else. n/t

[piedmont]

198. And that argument still doesn't fly

A viable life inside another's body is still a viable life.

[Scout]

204. that doesn't fucking matter. The woman takes precedence, regardless. n/t

[Yupster]

34. The only way I can defend her

is saying she must have been mentally ill.

In that case she certainly can not have minor children in her care, and she also cannot have access to a gun.

[roguevalley]

140. poor woman. what kind of country have we become when this is a

viable option to a poor girl all alone with two kids and one on the way? what kind of desperation could have made her do this? I guess unless you have been in her shoes, you can't know. I feel for her. I have known absolute desolation and can relate.

[LetsGoMurphys]

163. If she went to Planned Parenthood

couldn't they have done something? But then again it doesnt look like she was in the state of mind to make such a choice. Disturbing.

[LostinVA]

168. Probably not

Not all PPs do abortions (most counties in the US don't even have an abortion clinic).

Even if they did, how would she pay? Abortions aren't free. Odds are she still would have had to have ponied up some money -- it states her BF wouldn't give her money.

[lastliberalintexas]

195. I can't personally even begin to understand the

complete and utter desperation one must feel to commit such an act. Very sad indeed.

[progressivebydesign]

225. ADOPTION. There are other options.. n/t

[Katzenjammer]

46. "I'm pro choice, but I believe in time limits"

Unless you advocate for making the option REALLY available, not just theoretically available, you're nowhere near as 'pro-choice' as you think.

And as long as the option isn't in fact available to someone like her, for anyone to smugly criticize her is asinine.

That judge did the right thing.

[okieinpain]

61. nope, she committed murder. she should be in jail.

[Name removed]

72. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nodehopper]

77. not necessarily

PP does not provide free abortions; in many places, especially rural places, it can be very difficult to get to an abortion clinic. Abortions are not cheap, even on a sliding scale, especially for someone who is obviously very poor. It is entirely possible that she really was not able to go and get an abortion when "it was just a clump of cells" especially when it sounds like she had an unsupportive and possibly controlling partner. You are making the viability argument, but with modern technology viability is now estimated earlier than the point up to which some states permit abortions. Is that murder, too?

[Demeter]

3. !!!!! What Kind of Nation Are We To Drive Women To Such Desperation???

Is there any way this could be converted into a class action suit for women's health needs?

[msongs]

5. she is entirely responsible for her own behavior.... nt

[Iris]

7. Bull shit. n/t

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

22. How so? nt

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SquireJons]

39. Life is so hard, and btw, god told me to kill you...

I'm all for compassion, but her actions are inexcusable. If she had shot another woman and caused the death of her unborn child, than she would have been charged with murder. It makes no difference that the baby was her own, in fact it makes it worse. Yes, she is young, desperate and stupid, but that is no excuse to kill anyone. I'm a democrat, and progressive in my thinking, but the poor pitiful act doesn't wash with me. Hell, I'm desperate from time to time myself. A couple of years ago it was looking like I was going to have to move away from my only son (who's 9) because I couldn't make a living in the city I have lived in for 18 years. Guess I should have gone out and bought a gun and shot some people. I'm sure I could find "humane" people here that would support anything I do out of "desperation."

It seems some folks don't believe that anyone is ever responsible for their actions.

[Iris]

51. Your reply shows an immature view of the world.

It is extremely, and I mean EXTREMELY, difficult for even married couples who have kids today. There are a lot of middle class women whose desperation is covered by the thinnest veneer of materialism and pretense that they are happily going about being the "good mother" even though their lives are a living hell because this country does not offer any support for people with children. They're all on their own, getting by the best way they can.

Someone like this woman doesn't even have a hint of a social safety net. It's easy to sit in judgment of someone like this without looking at how a person gets to this kind of place. Why should any individual have to take on the whole world while raising children by herself?

I simply don't understand why it's so hard for people, particularly people who are on this particular board, to understand that these problems are a manifestation of a society that could care less about how people get by.

[okieinpain]

63. does not mean you get to kill off your problem.

[Iris]

67. Why don't you go to the link in #37, post something similar and see

how that goes over.



And then check out posts 53 & 58.

I'm done with you.

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[okieinpain]

62. very well said.. n/t

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

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[toopers]

94. If we are not responsible for our own behavior . . .

who is?

[LostinVA]

104. Oi oi oi

[toopers]

107. Great response . . .

[La Lioness Priyanka]

192. sometimes circumstances are ....

sometimes you are desperate and cant afford the health care you need...and you take matters into your own hands...and do disastrous things...

[Richard Steele]

37. Because we all exist in a vacuum, free of all outside influence, right?

pfft.

[mondo joe]

119. If outside influence means we're not responsible for our own

choices, who is?

[Richard Steele]

126. No, it's the word "entirely" I take exception to in that post.

Yes, we are responsible for making our own choices.
But "entirely" goes out the window when circumstances
LIMIT the choices available to us. And circumstances
certainly DO limit our choices- sometimes very severely.

It was clear from the article that she WANTED to
terminate the pregnancy in a safe and legal fashion.
However, that CHOICE was not available for her to
make, because she didn't have the $$$ necessary to make it.

Is she "entirely responsible" for the fact that her options
were much more limited than some peoples are?

Yes, she made what we can all agree was a BAD choice.
But how should her actions be viewed, in light of the
fact that no GOOD choices were available to her?

I don't pretend to have answers to such difficult questions;
but I know that those answers, if they exist, are certainly
very complex ones. They are not so simplistically black and white,
and I very much doubt that the word "entirely" has any part in them.

[mondo joe]

127. Thank you for the clarification.

Much appreciated.

That said, even with limited choices we are still responsible for the ons we make. Clearly there's some sort of continuum between absolute responsibility with absolute choices, and some opposite extreme.

Idon't nkow enough about this case to have an opinion about her range of choices. It may be that she had abortion options and either failed to investigate or use them, or it could be she really had none.

Aside from all that, I personally think aborting the day you go into labor - short of medical reasons - is not okay. I'm not even suggesting legally prohibiting it - I just don't think it's okay.

[Hosnon]

4. Self-delete. nt

[slackmaster]

8. Not familiar with VA law, can't comment on the OP's question

In my personal opinion, that was a grisly and horrible thing to do. Not only did she kill a full-term fetus, which could have been born and put up for adoption, her actions put her own life at great risk.

I'm pretty strongly pro-choice, but a woman should be able to figure out whether or not she wants a baby by the end of the first trimester.

She said her boyfriend wouldn't pay for an abortion, so she carried her pregnancy to term.

I wonder if she had access to any other means of paying for an early-term abortion. If I had been a friend of hers and knew what would have happened, I would have paid for her abortion myself and taken a tax deduction for an uncollectable personal debt if she couldn't pay me back.

[shanti]

41. right, but....

In my personal opinion, that was a grisly and horrible thing to do. Not only did she kill a full-term fetus, which could have been born and put up for adoption, her actions put her own life at great risk.




~~this doesn't seem to be the "usual" situation. the woman is either mentally ill, retarded, or very desperate, all situations where compassion is in order, although many will never understand her decision...

i understand and support the judge.~~

[nodehopper]

79. maybe if you were her friend

who lived in a poor community, you wouldn't have had money to pay for her abortion, even on loan.

I think a lot of people who approach hypothetical problems with the attitude of "well, the money could be found somehow" aren't aware that there are places and communities of support where poverty is so rampant that the money just really cannot be found.

It sounds like she was pressured into carrying the fetus by an abusive boyfriend, and then freaked out when she was about to give birth.

It is really unfortunate that that happened, it is a f*cked-up and tragic story, but she certainly does not deserve to go to jail for it.

[slackmaster]

129. The cost of treating her for the gunshot wound

Will probably exceed what a normal childbirth would cost.

All to be absorbed by the hospital and the general public, of course.

An early abortion would have cost peanuts by comparison.

I have a hard time putting myself inside the head of someone who is not acting rationally.

[nodehopper]

139. yes, it will be

absorbed by the general public, because the health care system in this country is effed-up. As in, she can go to the emergency room and they have to offer her treatment for the gunshot wound even if she cannot pay. The bill will ruin her credit record, and the general public will have to absorb it. So in this screwed-up way she can "afford" treatment for the gunshot wound. But no one would have performed an abortion on her for free. She couldn't have gone into the ER and said "I need an abortion" and gotten it. Obviously, she was driven to desperation and not acting rationally at the end, but why do you have such a hard time processing as a REAL possibility the fact that she physically could not procure the resources to get an abortion?

[slackmaster]

141. I don't believe resources were actually not available

I would believe that, especially in a state of desperation, the woman didn't have the wherewithall to figure out where to go for help. It might have required some creative thought that she wasn't capable of, or maybe she was socially isolated to the point where she had no idea who to ask for help.

[nodehopper]

145. your own answer

offers the possibility of how the resources would not have been available to her. It is entirely possible that, especially in an abusive relationship, she was socially isolated.

But my broader point is, it blows my mind that you refuse to consider as a possibility that she does not live in a community where there would have been resources for her to pay for an abortion and posisbly for getting there--for many people, the PP most local to them does not offer abortions. That just says to me that you lead such a privileged existance that you can't conceive of a situation where should wouldn't have been able to come up with $500. That is ridiculous. There are plenty of people who, even in communities of peers, even not socially isolated, who cannot come up with that amount of money. Have you ever read "Nickel and Dimed"--if you have, think back to the chapter where the author talks about her coworkers who literally cannot come up with enough money to put down a deposit on the apartment, ever, so they end up living in motels, even though it's so much more expensive, but that is the only money they have at the end of the day--and those are people who work full-time, and get minimum wage.

So who do you think she could have asked for help? If help was not available among her immediate family and friends, what are these resources you speak of, that were somehow "there" and she just couldn't find them? State and federal programs don't cover abortions. It's not like there are programs that provide free abortions to low-income women on demand.

So, what are these resources she was too "uncreative" = stupid to find?

[slackmaster]

148. Please don't put words in my mouth

I never said she was stupid.

I am aware of how poor people get nickle-and-dimed.

She could have shown up at any community hospital, in labor, and been cared for. She'd be unable to pay, but they would have taken care of her.

Instead, she showed up with a complicated gunshot wound, got cared for, and will be unable to pay.

[nodehopper]

165. ah, so your solution is for her to have labored at the hospital

what you were saying earlier was that there must have been resources for her to have an early abortion that as you appraised it "would have cost peanuts by comparison" and I am still not clear on where you think she should have been able to procure those "peanuts."

The point is, she obviously did not want to have the child, and her literal inability to have an abortion drove her to a desperate act. Trying to apply ratinoal theory of mind who is obviously desperate and troubled enough to shoot themselves in the stomach instead of delivering the child is counter-productive. At that point it doesn't make sense to talk about the availability of resources; she has already been backed into a corner. Pregnancy is an extermely straining process for the body. The amount of hormones produced by your body when you are pregnant would take 150 YEARS to produce
by a non-pregnant body. Prenatal depression is a frequent and serious problem even among women who look forward to motherhood; I can only imagine how desperation and fear and NOT WANTING TO HAVE THE CHILD YOU ARE CARRYING could compound that to the nth degree. And the resources she needed to have prevented this tragedy--available abortion--simply weren't there.

Or is your point really just that you are pissed off that she got the more expensive procedure that will be absorbed by the public? Would you be as chagrined if she DID go to L&D and ended up having complications and a C-section? A gunshot wound costs about $17,000 to treat. A C-section with complications, the sort of monitoring and drugs that go into it, extended hospital stay and post-op care visits comes close to or top $15,000 (the C-section ALONE without all the extras costs between $11,500 and $13,000). Keep in mind that that figure is AVERAGE, and also keep in mind that in the South, a C-section costs about FOUR times more than it does in the Northeast, so it is entirely possible that if she had to have a C-section, it would have cost more than treating the gunshot wound, and US is the world leader in providing unnecessary C-sections for women. It doesn't make sense to blame her for the failures of the US health care system structure, of all things.

[slackmaster]

217. The only thing that IS clear is that EVERYONE will pay for her medical bills

As a taxpayer I'd rather contribute to paying for either A) an early abortion or B) an normal childbirth or even C) C-section and other complications, than to get stuck with the bill for her act of desperation which resulted in a needless death in addition to her terrible injuries. (And I am pro-choice BTW, but I do have some empathy for a full-term fetus so don't even think of going "there".)

Trying to apply ratinoal theory of mind who is obviously desperate and troubled enough to shoot themselves in the stomach instead of delivering the child is counter-productive.

That's for sure, and I believe I have made it clear that I DO NOT UNDERSTAND her mental state. I'm a hyper-rational person. That is not my fault.

Pregnancy is an extermely straining process for the body.

Yes, but not as much as a gunshot wound to the abdomen.

Or is your point really just that you are pissed off that she got the more expensive procedure that will be absorbed by the public?

It's unfortunate that you have arbitrarily chosen to limit me to one and only one "point" or one "solution". My feelings about this case are ambivalent and troubling on many levels.

It doesn't make sense to blame her for the failures of the US health care system structure, of all things.

Nor does it make sense to blame the failures of the US health care system for her series of bad decisions.

[lastliberalintexas]

197. Ah, but therein lies the rub

Medicaid will pay for the treatment of gunshot wounds, but not for abortions. Such is life in the USofA.

Would be nice if insurance and Medicaid paid for abortion services, but it's not reality. Heck, there are even some insurance companies that refuse to cover contraception- though Viagra is of course included. :eyes:

[Ilsa]

9. What an ignorant thing to do. She had other options, even that

far along. She could have died and left her other children motherless.

She could have found help, but she probably needed to be more resourceful. There were probably some "helpful" people who told her she'd burn in hell if she had an abortion, so she didn't know there were people who actually could help her.

Will Medicaid pay for an abortion in VA? Any state?

After having two kids, I can't imagine going through a whole pregnancy like that and then aborting over poverty.

Abortion needs to be kept safe and legal, and AVAILABLE, especially within the first trimester.

[OKthatsIT]

11. Most poor people do not believe there is help available

They life experience tells them they are not worth it.

[LisaM]

10. Where is the unwed father in all this?

The one who insisted she carry the child to term? What kind of a person is he?

The pregnancy is both their faults.

[nodehopper]

80. if you read the article

you will see that he is an abusive pr*ck.

[LisaM]

117. I read the article - I guess what I meant was

how come he hasn't been dragged up through the court of public inquiry?

[nodehopper]

120. ah, well, THAT is an excellent question.

[LostinVA]

123. Very, very good question

Maybe because it's the woman's responsibility to keep her legs closed and not tempt the poor guy into having sex with her?

Because I know SOMEONE will think I'm serious: :sarcasm:

[stillcool]

12. Why don't we just kill all the poor?

Wouldn't that put an end to all this bullshit...under a certain monetary level...just shoot them....except of course the sex-crimes committed by those children of the uber-wealthy..in that case we'll just kill the kids.

[Imalittleteapot]

14. They're working on it. nt

[RT_Fanatic]

65. Lou Reed has weighed in on this:

"Dirty Boulevard" from the New York CD.

Pedro lives out of the wilshire hotel
He looks out a window without glass
The walls are made of cardboard, newspapers on his feet
His father beats him cause hes too tired to beg

Hes got 9 brothers and sisters
Theyre brought up on their knees
Its hard to run when a coat hanger beats you on the thighs
Pedro dreams of being older and killing the old man
But thats a slim chance hes going to the boulevard

Hes going to end up, on the dirty boulevard
Hes going out, to the dirty boulevard
Hes going down, to the dirty boulevard

This room cost 2,000 dollars a month
You can believe it man its true
Somewhere a landlords laughing till he wets his pants
No one here dreams of being a doctor or a lawyer or anything
They dream of dealing on the dirty boulevard

Give me your hungry, your tired your poor Ill piss on em
Thats what the statue of bigotry says
Your poor huddled masses, lets club em to death
And get it over with and just dump em on the boulevard

Get to end up, on the dirty boulevard
Going out, to the dirty boulevard
Hes going down, on the dirty boulevard
Going out

Outside its a bright night
Theres an opera at lincoln center
Movie stars arrive by limousine
The klieg lights shoot up over the skyline of manhattan
But the lights are out on the mean streets

A small kid stands by the lincoln tunnel
Hes selling plastic roses for a buck
The traffics backed up to 39th street
The tv whores are calling the cops out for a suck

And back at the wilshire, pedro sits there dreaming
Hes found a book on magic in a garbage can
He looks at the pictures and stares at the cracked ceiling
At the count of 3 he says, I hope I can disappear

And fly fly away, from this dirty boulevard
I want to fly, from dirty boulevard
I want to fly, from dirty boulevard
I want to fly-fly-fly-fly, from dirty boulevard

I want to fly away
I want to fly
Fly, fly away
I want to fly
Fly-fly away (fly a-)
Fly-fly-fly (-way, ooohhh...)
Fly-fly away (I want to fly-fly away)
Fly away (I want to fly, wow-woh, no, fly away

[SquireJons]

83. I know the song, but don't get the reference.

So, is it ok for Pedro to kill his dad, or is it ok for Pedro's dad to kill him because they are poor? I don't get it...

[stillcool]

102. my patience is so tapped out..

and my heart hurts when I read some of these replys. The stories themselves are hard enough..but the ignorance and lack of humanity in response is truly breath-taking. I just don't get who people are anymore. Thank-you for that. I wish more artists would accurately reflect what's going on with this society..raise the consciousness. Things just don't happen fast enough.

[SquireJons]

136. Please explain

Seriously. Why is it humane to absolve someone of murdering her child? This is not a new thing. Every year young women give birth to babies that they don't want and can't support. These babies are found, sometimes alive, sometimes dead in cars, trash cans and bathrooms. When the mothers are found, they are rightly charged with a crime and often go to jail. What this woman did was worse. I don't see the humanity in her actions and I don't see humanity in absolving her of any legal consequences. She didn't put the gun to her own head, she put it to the baby's head. (and no, I don't wish she had killed herself) From what I read, she will suffer nothing outside of her own conscience from this.

That's just wrong. It has nothing at all to do with compassion or humanity. Dating a jerk doesn't give you the right to harm anyone. Being poor is very common. If we say that what she did was a result of something external, than probably 80% of all crime is excusable. Even violent crime.

And I also don't get the connection with this case and abortion. No doctor in the country would have performed an abortion on a baby that was due to be delivered that day. In this case, it wasn't a fetus or a zygote, it was a baby that would have been breathing and living on it's own in a matter of hours. Talk about muddying the waters. What this has to do with a woman who is 5 to 8 weeks pregnant deciding to terminate that pregnancy is beyond me.

And lastly, I don't think I've seen anyone ask this question: What about the father? He was expecting a child that day. True, I may be giving him feelings that he really didn't have, but it seems like he wanted the child. And now his child is dead. Where's the humanity in that?

[stillcool]

147. I will not convince you...

perhaps compassion and empathy only come to those who have personal knowledge of life's more difficult choices, and their consequences..or what drives human beings to do the things they do. Politics, or the nature of the society one is brought into, has more to do with the desperate choices people without choices make, than any individual instinct. I don't understand how people can take a snapshot in time, and judge the worth of another human being on that moment. Any logical explanation, such as cause and effect, are conveniently tossed without consideration. I mourn with that person who has done this to herself, her child, her life. She has obviously suffered more than I can imagine, and death may well be an act of grace. Forcing her to face the ilk of society that regales in further humiliating, degrading, and demoralizing her already fractured spirit would just be cruel. But then, I'm probably behind the times...torture away...

[SquireJons]

191. Holding someone responsible for their actions is not torture.

And allowing a woman to get away with anything in the name of prenatal irrational behavior is setting a dangerous precedent, to say the least. She didn't run a stop sign, she killed her baby.

[me b zola]

160. Oh for Christ's sake, let's just put all women in custody

...where they will be safe from themselves to have babies for the machine. Of course, once those babies are born the fact that many of them will be badly neglected or abused is not your concern, I'm sure.

You freaks really piss me off. You fucking fixate on a woman's reproductive life and insist that she be punished if she can't carry the burden, but never--NEVER--do I hear one of you so quick to condem a woman EVER condem the men, insititutions, and/or laws that back women into the corners that they are in.

You fucking ask about the "father" as if he is a victim. :grr: He was a fucking abuser. :grr:

[LostinVA]

169. Thank you for beating me to it

Especially everything about the so-called "father."

[SquireJons]

190. Back at ya babe

This is what the article said... you made up the rest.

"She said her boyfriend wouldn't pay for an abortion, so she carried her pregnancy to term."
...oh the bastard. It's ALL his fault!!!!!

"But Skinner's defense lawyer, Kevin Martingayle, argued that the law did not make it a crime for a mother to cause her own abortion. Ultimately, that argument convinced Circuit Court Judge W. R. Carter."

There is no legal abortion of a child due to be delivered that day. Therefor, it is not abortion.

"Skinner's self-abortion took place well into her third trimester. Without special medical circumstances, terminating a pregnancy at that stage is considered illegal."

"I couldn't sleep that morning, and I got up out of bed. I got dressed and grabbed my gun. I was having contractions — so scared out of my mind," Skinner said in a written statement to authorities."

Oh come on, she had already had two kids by then. Worried I could understand, but scared of what, exactly? The future? So and I...

Strike one on her credibility.

"I felt I did not have any choices," Skinner wrote in her statement. "

Obviously, that is false and almost certainly a lie. She has never heard of social services? Never heard of adoption? Come on...

Strike two.

"After Skinner pulled the trigger, she called 911 and told the operator she had gotten into an argument with a man named Travis, who then shot her in the stomach."

Liar liar, pants on fire.

Strike three, and making false statements to the police is in it's self a felony.

As to her claims of abuse? Could she provide any witnesses of said abuse? She has already proved herself to be a liar and a danger. Why should she be believed? Did she say he threatened her if she left him? The answer to both questions is no, by the way, so far as we can tell.

Everyone who commits a violent crime will say the same things. Could your sympathy be derived of her gender? Seems very possible to me. If so, go soak your head.

This case has me just as made as you... at you and all the other fuzzy headed, misguided apologists. Here's what this whole damned thing is about:

"The Tammy Skinner case exposes the ugly underside of the abortion culture," Brandao said in his online blog. "Every 'choice' ends with a dead baby and a wounded mother, whether it happens in a public parking lot or in the antiseptic chambers of a 'reproductive health facility.'"

Did you notice how much of the article was devoted to the anti abortion arguments? The crazies are using this as a vehicle to attack legal abortion and you are not clear minded enough to notice. You and you ilk are being used as pawns by the wing nuts. Go ahead and wail and rail... you do the enemies work for them. They are counting on the Democrats to not have the sense that God gave them, and they are hoping that the whole country notices.

Wake up! This woman is not a victim, she is the offender.

And yes, until I see something that indicates otherwise, the father was victimized in this affair too. You are so full of hate for men that you refuse to admit it.

[SquireJons]

196. If we can't get this one right, we don't deserve to govern.

I'd hate to think that Ralph Reed, et al, are right about anything, but this one has me shaking my head and a bit confused. I know that her sympathizers are trying to be good people, but come on... where is your sense of outrage? Can it only be directed toward men?

[SquireJons]

213. It's all dubya's fault. End of discussion n/t

[colorado_ufo]

13. This was more about temporary insanity than abortion.

It could very well have been viewed as a suicide attempt. The judge should have deemed her a danger to herself and others, removed her other children to social services and ordered a psychiatric evaluation.

This woman - and her children - need education, intervention, and support.

What is done cannot be undone, and retribution from society will accomplish nothing. The focus should be on what can be salvaged from this horrendous situation.

[Iris]

16. Amen. n/t

[AngryAmish]

59. I think this post is sexist

[Iris]

75. Is it also sexist to ignore the father's responsibility in this?

As a few have mentioned here, no one is mentioning the man who abandonded her.

[Megahurtz]

110. NO WAY should they remove her other children.

Putting your kids through the Social Services System as it is, is a spiderweb and a clusterfuck,
and dangerous to the kids for that matter.

Put your kids in Fostercare? Hell fucking no!

[LetsGoMurphys]

164. Well its probaly not going to be much

shes going to have some more issues after this.

[JoFerret]

18. What a dreadful story

Poor desperate woman driven to do something so awful. Clearly in dire need of support services. Thank goodness the case was dismissed. Enough already. People should now focus on getting this woman and others like her the help she needs.

Like soldiers driven to SIW. Help is needed. Compassion and support not censure and condemnation.

[Straight Shooter]

19. She needs some serious help.

Apparently this is a woman who cannot act until there is no time left to act.

About giving the child up for adoption, she may have a family that would have controlled that decision, too.

I'm horrified, but I can't judge her. God only knows what she's been through in her life to bring her to such a point of committing that deed. It sure sounds like mental illness to me.

[Chovexani]

124. Amen.

The lack of humanity in some of these responses sickens me.

I don't even know why I come around here anymore, liberalism is dead on this site.

[xchrom]

20. poor people commit desperate acts all the time.

most of those acts go unnoticed.

the judge decided correctly.

she didn't want to be pregnant -- did not want the child -- and did the only thing she thought she could.

[shanti]

42. ok!

that is the bottom line there. people are quick to judge.

[iam]

49. This is murder

Aside from insanity, this woman is guilty of murder. How can you make a moral distinction between killing a baby 10 minutes before birth and 10 minutes after birth? Both acts are reprehensible.

[xchrom]

78. then you better be adopting PLENTY of unwanted babies

before you complain to me about murder!

and don't bitch about others who don't adopt.

walk awhile in someone elses shoes before you come at me with this phoney moralistic bullshit.

[bling bling]

96. Condeming murder is not phony moralistic bullshit.

Coming up with a myriad reasons why this woman is the last person who should be held responsible is what's phony. You can be as understanding of the mother as you want to but that doesn't have to be at the exclusion of understanding why others would be SICK at the murder of a baby.

Personally, I don't empathise with this woman. What she did was wrong. Absolutely wrong. It was completely selfish, she had absolutely no compassion or regard for another life which she helped to create. I'll save my tears and hand-wringing for women who don't shoot their children.

My concern is setting up a situation to avoid this happening in the future. Setting up a situation so that people who are irresponsible and don't want children can get rid of the embryo before a fully developed baby has to be murdered or abused.

And I don't give a flying fuck how discompassionate that seems. Spare me your lectures about adoption. You wanna lecture, go lecture the apparently "uneducated" people who don't understand after having 2 children that unprotected sex leads to babies.

But I have news for you, I know some very, very poor people. And they would be insulted at this thread at the condescention claiming that because they're poor they don't know better than to have unprotected sex and then kill a developed baby out of desperation.

[Maine-ah]

113. A-fucking-men.

[xchrom]

142. you live in a dream world.

life for poor people is brutal -- and can be made more brutal with additional unwanted children.

and this was a fetus -- not matter how close it was to being born.

not everybody is going to react the same to any given situation -- so relativism is the only reasoning that we can use reliably.

you black and white assertions to someones desperation is medieval at best and scanitly clad barbarity at its worst.

she made attempts to make it clear she did not want this baby -- it's her body and she finally went out and made a statement that could not be misunderstood.

except by holier than thou types who don't understand -- everyone reacts differently to scenarios where they are cornered and have no way out.

[greccogirl]

218. It was a

full term baby, even though it wasn't born. If she made it clear she didn't want it, all she had to do was put it up for adoption. A bullet in it's head isn't the answer.

[toopers]

106. So, should we allow people to kill their children . . .

if they don't want them anymore because they may not be adopted?

[xchrom]

143. poor peoples children are killed all the time.

what's your point?

[iam]

176. Avoid the question much?

What is the moral or practical distinction between killing the "entity" 10 minutes before birth and killing the "entity" 10 minutes after birth. In your mind, what's the difference?

[Megahurtz]

112. I Agree Totally. n/t

[SquireJons]

137. yikes

That's a pretty scary notion of "the only thing." The baby was due to be delivered that same day.

[Nikia]

21. While I don't think that she should be in prision

I hope that she gets the help she needs to improve her mental health and sever ties with her abusive boyfriend. Sometimes court ordered treatment is the only thing that makes this possible, especially to someone who has proven that they are not very proative about seeking outside help.

[SquireJons]

40. Abusive boyfriend?

How do we know? She also told police that a man shot her in the stomach. So she's a lying, child murdering criminal who would see an innocent man go to jail for her own reprehensible actions or even get executed (VA has the second highest rate of executions in the country). How would you feel if she accused your brother of killing her baby when she actually did it herself? What about her other children? What if she gets "desperate" again? She has absolutely no credibility with me.

[Skip Intro]

23. psyops. that's all I gotta say. NK, 9*11 bodies, and the ultimate abotion

I'm sorry. LBN reads like a rove plot to me tongiht.

:tinfoilhat:

[SquireJons]

138. You might be right, but it still happened. n/t

[Anakin Skywalker]

24. WTF? This is WHY you need to have SAFE and legal ways for women to choose.

"Angered anti-abortion activists"? These are the very same idiots who are too stupid to realize this type of incident can only INCREASE if you outlaw the safe and legal methods offered by doctors, clinics, etc.

F*cking DUMB RIGHTWING, unthinking turds!

[ismnotwasm]

26. What a sad, tragic story.

All the elements of what we have come to when women are powerless, and choiceless.
By her own account "Lord, my mind isn't right", after suffering abuse for many years. Nobody in their right mind shoots themselves with the idea it's only going to hurt a fetus. If she had the wherewithal to pull the trigger, somewhere she knew her own death could be the result. I can imagine what she was going through. I was going to say I can't, but the sad thing is---As a woman who rights are being assaulted every day, who has to walk in fear of violent sexual assault as a matter of daily living, who lives in a culture that sells little girls or more accurately their parents, dolls with full makeup and thong panties, who is still considered less than human in many cultures, including AMERICAN culture, I can imagine exactly what was going through her mind.

Another horrible example or testiment to the influence anti-life culture that calls itself "pro-life".
If we had sane laws and respect for women, if choice was real,instead of a near abstract debated ideology, if the liberation of women ever actually happens, these things will not.

[Vidar]

28. I think I agree with the judge, with many reservations.

[FooFootheSnoo]

29. This woman is mentally unstable

Technically, I would consider this murder. She was already having contractions, just a few hours more and the child would have been born. That child was a viable human being. On the other hand, the mom was obviously out of her mind at the time. I don't think prison is the answer. I don't know that her other two children should be left with her right now. I think this family needs a lot of support and supervision. Something they should have had nine months ago. It could have been a lot worse, in that state of mind she could have also turned the gun on her other two children.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

30. Why couldn't she get an abortion?

Why wasn't it an option for her? Because her boyfriend wouldn't pay for it? WTF?

[bling bling]

33. She probably didn't have $500.00 in the bank.

It seems almost ironic that someone would have a child (which is far more expenseive overall) because they couldn't afford an abortion but it happens all the time. That's because poor people don't have the lump sum it costs for an abortion.

However, she probably could have afforded 0.25 for a condom, though. And if her man refused to wear it she should refuse to have sex.

But that's not reality. It just isn't.

The reality is that she did get pregnant, couldn't afford an early abortion and thus killed a full-term baby :cry:

[LostinVA]

44. She probably didn't have the money, or anyone to give it to her

[GoddessOfGuinness]

91. I thought there were organizations to help women who couldn't afford them.

Have they been obliterated?

[LostinVA]

105. Very, very few, and not in every community

And, you still have to usually pay several hundred dollars.

[Yupster]

209. This is a huge failing of the pro-choice community

There are millionaires donating tens of millions of dollars for every cause around and every candidate running for every office.

Hollywood millionaires are holding fundraisers for everything you can think of.

The pro-choice community needs to have a fund set up to help any mother pay for her abortion. They only cost a few hundred bucks. One concert could raise enough for 20,000 safe legal abortions. Where the pro-choice celebrities when the poor need them?

[Marie26]

232. Or better yet

Why couldn't she simply deliver the child? She was apparantly hours from delivering at the time, and emergency services should be covered by Medicaid. If she couldn't afford the child, she could put the baby up for adoption. No, I'm sorry. This wasn't right.

[slackmaster]

248. You're thinking rationally

That was my downfall here too.

Childbirth would be less traumatic than a gunshot wound.

[bling bling]

32. Oh good lord.

That poor little baby was just about to be born. What that woman did was wrong and downright sickening.

I really don't know what kind of normal mother can kill a full term baby. That woman was right that she wasn't right in the head. It's one thing to abort an undeveloped fetus but to kill a full term baby for non-medical reasons really is murdering your child.

Ideally, we as a society should make sure that women have access to early abortion and mental health services in the first place. Abortion should be free and access to abortion provided to women who can't afford them. At least throughout the first trimester. Counseling and mental health services should also be available to women thoughout the pregnancy.

If those things were in place I would say that any woman who gives herself an abortion in the 3rd trimester should be held accountable.

In the meantime, it would also be nice if women who didn't want or couldn't afford children had access to free birth control such as Depo Provera or the morning after thing. It would be in everyone's best interest, IMO.

[LostinVA]

45. The judgmental posts on this thread are appalling

She was poor, probably uneducated, and in dire straits. The poor really do live lives of quiet despration... infanticide has been going on for centuries for this very reason.

The judge did right. Now, if there was only some way to educate and help this woman -- and every other woman like her.

[Iris]

53. A former soldier who cooks his dead girlfriend gets more sympathy here

than ANY woman who cracks under the pressures put on her by society.

Yesterday there was a thread full of empathy the returning vet who strangled his girlfriend, cut her up and cooked her, but women rarely get that kind of consideration on this board.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2425180


But, we've got to support those troops, don't we? Women taking on the burden of raising children in a completely unsupportive society are on their own.

[gaspee]

55. I'm very disturbed

by the level of misogyny on DU. It kind of wakes you up to just how bad things are when the "progressives" use terms like feminazi (not sarcastically) and can't have a little empathy for a clearly mentally ill woman but can spare some for a man who cooks a woman.

I'm ready to go join the radical feminist separatist movement. Seriously.

I guess we have the answer to the question, "Are women human?"

[Iris]

56. Yes. I am used to be considered "radical" because I live in the South

but I'm still amazed that a place that calls itself an "underground" can drive me so far to the left.

[noamnety]

178. That's funny

because it's exactly what happened to me.

[Megahurtz]

114. Yes. I think that the Radical Feminist Separatist Movement

needs to come back into full force.
There's way too much of this misogyny and judging women,
and definitely against pregnant women these days.
We are not breeding cattle ready to pop out a baby at the whim of others.

[SquireJons]

208. Here's the break

I'm not trying to be inflammatory here at all... or mean. After this election, I hope you do join the radical feminist movement. And I hope you take Iris and a few others with you. Democrats can not win national or even local elections with your mentality. The vast majority of americans simply will not accept your way of thinking.

Be true to your beliefs. We need more than two political parties in this country anyways, because to be a democrat or a republican in this country these days is meaningless.

I wish that the radical left would break away; they are dragging the Democratic Party over the cliff. And I wish that the radical right would break away; they are dragging the whole country over an even higher cliff, into a sea of fire. The republican party would be better off without them. Then the rest of us could band together out of fear of the left and right to govern this country responsibly probably forever with a 75% majority.

..oh, and I'm pretty sure that women are human. But some of them arn't very nice people.

[Yupster]

210. I do have a little empathy for this woman

I'm totally convinced that she must be very ill mentally and I'm totally convinced that leaving her surviving kids in her care after she's shot one of them is insane.

[LostinVA]

58. And, notice this one other thing:

People aren't talking about the dude who helped her get pregnant and then wouldn't help out...

[Polesitter]

157. The article didn't say he wouldn't help out. It said he wouldn't

pay for an abortion. And it described him generally as an asshole.

The article also said it was unknown if she had explored legal means of obtaining an abortion.

But when has freedom of choice ever meant forcing anyone to fund an abortion? Logic says if he's just a cheap bastard, the abortion is far less expensive than 18 years of child support - but what if he refused based on his religion? When does her right to choose abortion overrule his 1st amendment right regarding free exercise of his religion?

[Lars39]

161. Her right to choose an abortion trumps his religion.

*Every* single time. He's not running the physical and emotional risks that she is while pregnant.

[LostinVA]

170. I'm not even wasting my time with this n/t

[Katzenjammer]

173. "his 1st amendment right regarding free exercise of his religion"

If he doesn't "exercise his religion" by keeping his putz in his pants, any "religion" claim is crap.

[Scout]

181. woo hoo!!!!!!

yup, if abortion is against his religion, i'd be willing to bet sex outside of marriage is also against his religion!

my sister would hear this a lot from women when she was a clinic counselor "my boyfriend says blah blah blah..." and she'd ask them what their boyfriend's religion said about sex outside of marriage!

eta: his right to practice his religion stops at her body anyway, married or not.

[Arugula Latte]

185. Polesitter -- I'd say when he grows some ovaries and a uterus,

THEN he can weigh in ...

[SquireJons]

202. Along those lines...

The article said "she said" he was abusive. She offered no proof. She also claimed that a man named 'Travis' shot her in the stomach. Not very credible.

As for his motivations for not wanting to fund the abortion, is it so radical to think that he may have actually wanted the child? I know... all men are assholes who hate children...

Not!

I know a guy who got his ex pregnant. He wanted the baby, she did not. So he kissed her stomach good by and cried like a baby when she went to get the abortion. But of course he was just a wimp. Not a real manly asshole, like this guy.

Here's how I see it. She had the right to seek an abortion up to the second trimester. That's it. Other than that she could have put the child up for adoption. I know, I know... adoption is an illusion. All such children are abused and grow up to be Charles Manson. Especially my ex and her twin sister who were adopted by a very wealthy family and now lives on a trust fund and has never had to work a day in her life. She does know that her real parents were very poor and young. Every day, she wishes that her mother had the guts to have killed her the day she was due to be born.

BTW... both my ex and my nine year old son, who is as sweet and open minded as anyone I have ever known think what she did was not only wrong, but a crime. I'll go with them and turn my back on the radicals who think that being pregnant is a license to do anything. Ya know, the world is full of bad people and some of them just happen to be women.

But it's all some mans fault.

[ryanus]

98. I am poor, can't pay taxes

Can I start shooting people on welfare?

[LostinVA]

103. Nice strawman

Good try, though!

[ryanus]

108. Not strawman; extension of logic

If the argument is that is it acceptable to kill off a dependent if you can't support that dependent, then you can kill off people on welfare if it is a financial burden to you.

Ah, where is the line? It's ok for a woman to kill a her baby\fetus because it would be too much of a financial burder, but not ok to kill off other dependants if they are a financial burden? I'd like someone to clarify.

[petronius]

122. You have a very Republican concept of welfare, if you view

welfare recipients as your dependents. It sounds as though you've been listening too long to the "why should my hard-earned money be stolen from me and given to the lazy good-for-nothings who don't take any responsibility" crowd.

(It's a good idea however - next April I think I'll claim 47 million dependents on my tax return, and see how far that gets me. :))

[Megahurtz]

115. Only if they are inside of your body.

Does that clarify it enough for you?

[ryanus]

121. That is a clarification

If the person\baby\fetus is inside you, you can do whatever you want. I don't agree, but at least someone clarified it.

Then I guess there is no possibility for anyone to be convicted for using drugs, smoking, or drinking alcohol while pregant. In fact, if a woman is pregnant, there can be no prosecution for anything she does to the fetus\baby, until the baby is born. There can be no such thing as fetus endangerment or negligence, at least not by the mother.

That's the extension of logic based on your clarification. If that's it, I wish people who stick to it.

[mondo joe]

125. Indeed, there is no such thing as "fetus endangerment" by the

mother.

[progressivebydesign]

229. don't you love that people call us "judgmental" for thinking of the baby?

There are some people that are sooo politically correct that they have an inability to have any empathy for a baby, a healthy full term baby, that is shot to death within hours of being born. So the mom was poor... so were a lot of us.

[Maine-ah]

43. I am a woman who has had one abortion (11 years ago)

and expecting my first child with in the next three weeks.

That being said, I could not fathom "causing the abortion" of the child inside me right now, who is considered full term at 37 weeks, and could certainly live outside of me with out complications. I would think that you would have to be mentally disturbed to perform the act that this woman has done. However, she had the time to 1. load the gun (actually have someone load it for her) 2. drive some where and shoot herself (she could have driven to a hospital or church for help from someone). 3. she had nine months to find help. She has 2 other kids, she certainly knew that at that point in her pregnancy, that the child she was carrying could survive with out her.

I'm rather torn on this.


spelling.

[Bridget Burke]

47. Be very glad you can't understand this woman.

And be glad that you had access to (1) a safe, legal abortion when you needed it & (2) a support system for your current pregnancy. I doubt you're living with an abusive boyfriend--correct me if I'm wrong. Why didn't she just take her 2 little children & run away from him--with no money?

This is a dreadful occurrence & I'd agree that mental disturbance played a part.

Again--be grateful for your own situation.

[AngryAmish]

69. I could not fathom doing the following:

1. Loading a gun (or have someone load it for me)
2. Drive over to a gas station
3. Walk into said gas station, pull out the gun and ask for money and if the money was not forthcoming shooting someone

Doing the above is not in me. I could not do it even how poor I was.

But if I did it nobody would call me anything but a criminal.

Pregnant women are not such delicate little flowers that any bad behavior on their part is considered an act of a mentally ill person. Such an attitude is sexist. (This case was her body, her choice). It is the attitude that pregnant women (actually women generally) are not fully human and thus more like an animal or child that is incapable of independent judgment that is repellent.

[Iris]

71. but hormones and conditions such as post-partum psychosis

should not be dismissed either in an attempt to "make women equal".

And can you explain just WHY a solider suffering from post-traumatic stress gets sympathy after killing and cooking his girlfriend, but women, who also suffer in this world and often do so while being sole-caretakers of children, get no such sympathy?

[AngryAmish]

73. I by no means say post-partum psychosis does not exist

It clearly does. However one can commit infanticide without ipso facto being post-partum psychosis. One can just be evil.

The soldier? You have me there. I saw the thread but did not read it. I have no idea of he had PTSD (which does not happen to every person in combat).

[Iris]

74. so, why don't you go to that thread and post something similar there

and see the reaction you get.

[AngryAmish]

76. Interesting experiment.

I'll go see.

[SquireJons]

205. It's not a question of sympathy

It's a matter of justice. Did the soldier who killed his girlfriend get off scott free? If so, I think that was just as much a travesty of justice as this case. One wrong decision does not make another one right. For society to function, people must be held accountable for their actions. Yes, there are mitigating circumstances, if they can be proven. And this can impact the final resolution of the case, but not absolve someone of their crimes. Believe it or not, some people are actually helped by going to jail, because there they can get counseling, skills and a chance to break the cycle that caused their problems in the first case. I wouldn't recommend it, but in her case it probably would be helpful.

IF, she was suffering from temporary insanity due to stress, then that should have been her defense, and she should have had to prove it to a judge. That was not the case here. The defense argued that she has the right to do what she did. That's pretty scary to me.

Quite frankly, I am more worried for her other two kids than I am for her. They are helpless, she is an adult. Adult means responsible. If she is not responsible, than she can not raise kids. If she is responsible than she can not legally kill her kids. It's one or the other.

[iam]

48. This is completely illegal

and immoral. Once a fetus has passed a certain point (around 12-16 weeks) in the process, it becomes a person. Shooting a baby 5 minutes before birth is just as wrong as shooting it 5 minutes after birth. What diff does 10 minutes and "stomach" lining make morally?

[gaspee]

50. You're missing the point

It isn't about causing the death of a fetus (and until it takes it's first breath, it's a fetus, not a baby. Hate to be technical, but it's reality.) This is about a woman so desperate not to have this baby, she was ready to cause her own death.

Because even if you are mentally ill. you know that shooting yourself in the stomach is a life-threatening injury. There are woman out there who would rather die than have an unwanted baby.

She needs help. Period. All the moralistic judgement out there makes me kind of ill.

And what's the difference, really, between aborting a 12 week fetus and self-aborting almost to the point of suicide a full term fetus. Bottom line, the child is never born.

And before you get all holier than thou on me, I don't think what she did was right and I think she's in a state of desparation to the point of mental illness. Should she have just shot herself in the head? Then at least she's killing herself and the "baby" is collateral damage.

It seems the moralistas around here would prefer that. Because once you're pregnant, you're no longer a person, just an incubator.

[ecstatic]

60. "what's the difference, really, between aborting a 12 week fetus and..."

"...what's the difference, really, between aborting a 12 week fetus and self-aborting almost to the point of suicide a full term fetus. Bottom line, the child is never born."

Well, as the other poster pointed out, one can survive outside the womb, without the birth mother's body (well maybe not at 12 weeks, but certainly on the day of scheduled birth!). Come on, this isn't about being holier than thou. Look, I believe in personal responsibility and as others have pointed out, this woman had 9 months to come to some sort of decision. You don't procrastinate until the day of birth, but then again, you all were right when you said severe mental illness is most likely the cause, in which case, she should lose custody of the surviving children.

[iam]

177. There seems to be a lack of understanding here

The process of manufacturing another human being is not a series of distinct steps. Somewhere between getting naked and slapping a baby on the butt we get a brand new person. Reason suggests that when the fetus becomes viable outside the mother, we can imaging transition being reached. Before this time the mother is indispensable for the baby. After this point reasonable restrictions may be placed on society as to the legality of aborting the process. After all, if this woman had a preemie, and then stabbed the child in an incubator, you would be fine with that?

[Scout]

183. if the incubator and preemie were still inside her uterus then of course

we'd not have a problem with it.

:eyes:

Most of us trust that women will NOT give birth to a preemie, in a hospital with an incubator and then kill it.

[SquireJons]

207. Exoneration is not sympathy

The defense argued that she has the right to do what she did. That's wrong. If she is mentally unstable, then she needs to be committed, at least for a period of time. Under that reasoning, she is a definite danger to her other two children. If she is not unstable, then she is responsible for her actions... and her crime. So it's jail or the sanitarium. Either way it's incarceration. And either way she gets help. How is it in her or anyones best interest for her to return home at this time?

Also, it seems to me that she did not try to kill herself. If that was her goal, she wouldn't have shot her stomach, she would have shot her head. She hated the baby. So she killed it.

This issue is very dangerous for Democrats. If the national media were to get ahold of this thread, from a site that purports to be main stream democratic thinking, we would be in a lot of trouble. By my counting, some 40% of the respondents think she is the victim here. I believe that roughly 90% of americans would disagree with that assessment and the Democratic Party could easily be portrayed as way out of step with the average american on issues of morality and personal ethics.

[ecstatic]

258. You are soooo right!!!

I am a left leaning liberal, according to most online quizzes, and in my opinion, many of the posters on this thread are extremely blind. I would be horrified if anybody outside of DU got a hold of this thread!!

[BoneDaddy]

52. obviously

she was and is currently insane to do such a desperate act. I guess I don't understand why she didn't carry the child to term and give the baby away after waiting the 9 mos, but I think this is more about her mental state at the time.

[gaspee]

54. it's kind of disturbing

How many people here are making moral judgements on this woman. Bottom line, she would would have preferred death over having this child. Smacks of desperation to the point of irrationality to me.

And no, I don't think what she did is right, but it does seem to me that once a woman becomes pregnant, she's no longer considered a human being, just an incubator.

She was willing to cause her own death to not have this baby. For reasons we cannot understand. I'm sure glad people are being so non-judgemental about this. (sarcasm.)

Not the same situation, but if I were raped and became pregnant and could not get an abortion, I would choose suicide over giving birth to the child of a rapist. And I know I'm not alone. but thankfully, I live in a state that isn't slipping backward into the "woman is nothing but an empty vessel" mentality that seems to be overtaking about half this country.

[lastliberalintexas]

199. Yes, it is

It seems the republicans aren't the only ones lacking compassion and empathy these days. :(


I can't begin to fathom the desperation to commit such an act, though it's an act that desperate people have committed since the beginnings of time. And if anyone thinks that Ms. Skinner was the only person to commit such an act (infanticide if you want) on that date, I have a bridge you might like to buy. Real cheap.

[Solly Mack]

57. Reading this thread makes me wonder if some people only feel

bad for Geraldine Santoro because she died in her desperate attempt at a self-induced abortion.

Had Tammy Skinner died I wonder how many voices judging her now would be expressing sorrow. Feeling bad that she was driven to such lengths. Showing a little mercy because of the tragedy of the situation.

But Tammy Skinner lived...and I have to wonder, from reading this thread, if that was her real crime in the minds of some people.

Geraldine Santoro's daughter is a DU'er. Did you know that? I sincerely hope she doesn't come across this thread. But if she does - I hope she knows it was her mother's life that meant something to me. It was her mother's life that was important. And had society valued her as a person, she'd be alive today.

I'm glad Tammy Skinner is alive. I'm glad the charges were dismissed.

[THUNDER HANDS]

64. me too

I hope this woman gets some counseling, if she needs it. But the judge made the right decision. I'm just surprised she wasn't brought up on other charges because discharging a gun near a gas station doesn't seem like the best idea in the world.

[LostinVA]

66. I didn't know Geraldine's daughter was a DUer

I hope she hasn't read some of these crazy threads on here...

Yeah, I agree: if Ms. Skinner had died, there would be sympathy overflowing on here.

[Solly Mack]

70. She introduced herself a while back

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=1384115#1386201

[LostinVA]

84. Thanks!

[SquireJons]

85. I don't understand

Most people (even republicans) would say that it's good that the woman didn't die. But what does that have to do with the charges being dismissed? Will you feel as sorry for her if she kills her other two children? What if she snaps and just kills someone randomly? What responsibility does society have to protect itself and its most defenseless members? Under what conditions are people exempt from responsibilities? Is there an annual income limit? Say, anyone who earns less than 10K a year can get away with anything? Or is it an abuse thing? If my ex yells at me because her boyfriend wreaked her car while driving drunk, can I do some crimes? (ex's can be highly abusive)

Really, I am not understanding your misplaced compassion. Some people deserve to go to jail for things that they do. Why is that so hard for many folks here to comprehend? I'm not saying that she should be executed, but she needs help and needs to understand the gravity of her actions. Jail is as good a place for her as any right now.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

87. Some people have a difficult time seeing the whole picture

They become so fixated on one area that their eyes are no longer able to move beyond that point. Sadly their hearts and minds are also stuck there unable to advance beyond that view. It rarely matters if others attempt to point out more of the picture, they are still so obsessed with that one area they simply refuse to see other than that. It's a very limiting affliction and makes them easily exploited by others with an agenda in that area.

I'm not excusing their blindness, merely attempting to explain it.

[ecstatic]

95. Is it possible that the ones who condone this are the blind ones?

Would it still have been OK if she went ahead and gave birth, but dumped the newborn in a dumpster somewhere?

I didn't see it before but now I see very clearly that there is a double standard for when a woman does something stupid and a man does.

Like I said in post #2, I am pro choice-- VERY pro choice. I don't feel any woman should have to explain her decision UP UNTIL the 6th month, which is when the baby might be able to survive outside the womb. Once you've let it live to that point, why kill it (unless of course the mother's life is at risk)? It's almost like saying, if I can't have it, nobody can!

[Lone_Star_Dem]

97. You make my point

It's not initially about adoption, abortion or even womens or children's rights. It's about mental health and a break down within our society to recognize that issue. Healthy people don't shoot themselves in the stomach and that's where we should begin when looking at this. Then we can explore the directions that it takes us in, but not until we first address that fact and explore why it occurred.

Edit for clarity

[LostinVA]

101. Yup -- good post

[lastliberalintexas]

200. Who's condoned the act?

I've only seen posters express their sympathy towards this woman and the circumstances which brought her to such a depserate act. No one is saying that this was the best, only or first option for this woman. :crazy:

[LostinVA]

206. Why bring facts into the matter and confuse the issue?

It's so much easier for the poster to just make up what they've read in this thread, eh?

[noonwitch]

86. Very sad, and it shouldn't be a political matter.

It's a criminal and/or mental health issue. Sane women don't shoot themselves in the stomach to end a pregnancy. She needs some help.

[Yupster]

222. The ones who need the most help are

her two other kids.

Like you said, sane people don't shoot themselves in the stomach. So how can a judge put two minor children in the care of an insane woman who has already killed one of her children.

That boggles my mind.

[bleedingheart]

88. Yet another reason to lobby for Universal Coverage in the US

this woman's poverty prevented her from having an abortion.

When faced with the fact that she would end up having to raise a child she could not afford...she did something extreme and risked her own life as well.

I feel sympathy for her.

[Yupster]

223. Why would she have to raise this child

which she couldn't afford?

She never heard of adoption?

[Scriptor Ignotus]

90. HOLY CRAP!!

I'm left speechless at the moment...

[pookieblue]

93. I don't think he did the right thing

I do think that anyone who makes plans to shoot themself (like she did) in mentally unstable.

While I don't think she should have gone to prison, she does need help. She has two other kids and by her own admission her mind was not right.

This was a warning sign with this young lady. If she was desperate enough to shoot herself in the stomach to get rid of the baby...what's to say she couldn't do the same with the other children? And what's to say, that she couldn't turn the gun on herself later down the road, if she is again feeling desperate and leave her other two children otherless?

She needs Psychiatric help to protect herself and her other children.

I think that the judge dropped the ball on this.

[bling bling]

99. I don't think the judge ruled that way out of compassion for her.

I think he ruled that way because charging her with murder would have set a precedent that could have had dangerous implications for other pregnant women. If he ruled it a crime that the mother performed an abortion on her baby, it opened the door for murder lawsuits against pregnant women if they fall down stairs or whatever.

At least that's the way I read it.

[SoCalDem]

100. Desperate people do desperate things. Mental health care is sorely lacking

in America.

It sounds like this woman (girl?) had/has some serious mental health issues, far worse than an unplanned pregnancy.

An economically-challenged 22 year old who is on her third pregnancy is very likely to be seriously depressed.

Her two living children may be the "luckiest" people on the planet. A gun in the hands of a depressed person can end the lives of more than themselves.

This is not a "judgement" statement, but birth control is not that hard to come by these days, and it always amazes me when people who are sexually active don't use it religiously.

As odd as it may seem in this day and age, there ARE still women/girls who think that if they get pregnant, their boyfriend will marry them and they will "live happily ever after"..

[lastliberalintexas]

201. Birth control also fails

My child is proof of that.

I understand you weren't judging her, but we don't have any evidence that she failed to use contraception- only that if she did, it failed. :shrug:

[Yupster]

211. I have one kid

and he swam through a condom too. Actually, he slipped the condom off and then swam around to be technical. Clever little sperm he was.

[Charlie Brown]

111. There should certainly not be criminal charges here

For all the people throwing stones at this woman, do you want a bunch of men in the Virginia Legislature to have the final say on how women decide to handle their personal lives? Had the child been born, would you really want to have him/her grow up in a household where they would obviously be unwanted and unloved, and very likely neglected? This is not a decision the State of Virginia has any business deciding for women within its jurisdiction.

The tragedy here is that this woman did not have the means to have an abortion (either through ignorance or poverty, or both), not that she decided to do it herself. Some of you are arguing that this should be a criminal offence?

The judge made the right call.

[shawcomm]

116. ...

...

[Megahurtz]

118. Well I do remember enough of what you said

to respond. You apparently are lucky that you were adopted by kind people. Well good for you. Other "unwanted" kids are not so lucky, and many get abused constantly in all kinds of ways, and are stuck in Foster Care forever. Then after such a scenario described, they grow up very mentally damaged and unable to cope with life and subject to further abuse.

You need a reality check that the World for others is not always in the way that you have experienced it.

[LisaM]

128. The father should be prevented from having kids too

He is just as responsible as she.

[slackmaster]

130. He's responsible all right

But clearly not a responsible person.

[Name removed]

131. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

132. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[slackmaster]

133. Sorry I missed whatever that was

:hi:

[enigmacat]

134. The judge was bound by the laws of Virginia, but...

Skinner was still responsible for her actions, ethically.
For those defending Skinner's actions, please read the following:

"... A law on the books in Virginia gives troubled mothers a choice.

It allows safe havens, like emergency rooms of hospitals and fire stations the chance to keep their secret, and their baby.

Captain Garry Windley with the Norfolk Fire Department says, 'We take the child in, no questions asked.'

That is the message echoed by a group based on the Peninsula. Into Safe Arms was founded by a Newport News grandmother, Sonya Nachman. She wants all troubled mothers to know this: 'There are people to help you, and that you don't have to go through that terrible trauma alone. You can even go to the hospital and deliver the baby in the hospital and leave.'"

Source: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15134786/


A 22 year old woman with two children already, that knows that they don't want or can't keep another child, has a responsibility to herself, her other children, and her unborn child/fetus to look into other options.

[LostinVA]

135. Be glad YOUR life is so black and white

And feel compassion for those whose life and physical and mental circumstances aren;t quite so cut-and-dried.

[piedmont]

144. Who gave her the gun-- and LOADED it?

"I got somebody to load the gun, because I didn't know how. I got in the car. … Sat there for a while and told the Lord that my mind was not right. I pulled the trigger. … The gun went off."

That "somebody" should be held accountable.

This case is a COMPLETE clusterfuck-- our society failing its most vulnerable mebers. Too poor to have an abortion earlier in the pregnancy, abusive boyfriend, inadequate access to healthcare (her mental distress should have been obvious), and to top it all off, some fucker gives her a loaded gun. She and the baby were victims.

[Yupster]

212. I agree the person who gave her a loaded gun

should be held responsible.

So should the person who pulled the trigger.

[piedmont]

254. see my post at #251

If someone else did it to her, I'm totally for trying them for murder. But shooting yourself in the abdomen isn't sane. Not guilty by reason of insanity.
As for the illegal abortion for which she was charged, I dunno. Sounds like there's a loophole there. should it be closed? I'm still trying to figure that out myself.

[Thickasabrick]

146. To the people who say this was "murder", then abortion is murder.

Legally, if the laws ever looked at this situation as "murder", then the slippery slope would become a slide and all abortion would be murder.

It is not a life until it is "living" outside of the womb on it's own.....end of story. Until that time, it is a parasite to be dealt with by it's host.

[piedmont]

149. I could have sworn...

that the laws are such that in this stage of the pregnancy, if someone ELSE had shot her, they would have been charged with some sort of homicide. I think the "loophole" her lawyers used was that the law doesn't say anything about if the mother does something like this. Regardless, she shouldn't be charged because she was desperate and abused to point of mental illness (in my opinion) and NOBODY was there for her.

[Thickasabrick]

150. It's my understanding that if you kill someone's unborn, no matter

what state - it can be called murder.

At any rate, I agree with you. Definitely some psychological problems at work here and she didn't think reaching out to anyone would help her. Very sad and what's sadder still is that people are calling her a murderer.

[piedmont]

152. yep.

I don't see this as either abortion or murder-- it was the horrible consequence of this woman's support system (from her family to her society at large) failing her and the fetus/baby (whatever you want to call it).

[Centered]

184. It can be murder

If you assault a woman walking into a known abortion clinic... showing up in time for her scheduled abortion, if your actions cause the death of the "child" or "fetus" Then you are a murderer.

If she would have delivered the baby and left it to die on it's own in a dumpster it's murder.

I don't think anyone thought about this particular circumstance which is why we are having this debate. I personally believe this to be murder because the child was capable of survival at the time of it's death. But this issue needs to be explored WITHOUT emotion.

For instance was the child alive when removed for surgery or DOA, if the child were removed from the mother and breathing but ultimately died is that still a self abortion? Is the girl had shot herself and died (and the baby still alive) and she was scheduled to have an abortion that day are medical personnel forbidden to attempt to save the child?

These debates spiral out of control quickly but I do believe it is possible to discuss a topic like this as long as people are willing to discuss them openly.

[piedmont]

188. agree

My thoughts are that if someone else did it to her, they (and anyone who helped them) should be charged with murder. But there's a bit of Catch-22 involved when the mother does this herself. In my opinion, she could not have been acting rationally. This just isn't a rational decision at all-- and that makes it something other than murder.
BUT whoever aided her by giving her a gun and loading it should be tried for negligent homicide at the very least.

[piedmont]

151. whoops,

I should have re-read the charges against her.

[Xithras]

153. No, there's a fundamental difference between murder & abortion.

This was murder.

Here's the difference. Abortion is legal and should be because an early or even mid-stage pregnancy isn't really a person. The fetus is not capable of sustaining its own life and therefore requires the participation of the mothers body to live. The mother, of course, has the right to determine whether or not she wants to participate in that relationship and to terminate if she doesn't.

In this case we're talking about a fully formed human being who was only inside her womb because she chose not to let it out. It was no longer dependent on her, and she could have delivered it at any time without affecting its ability to live. She DID have a safe and legal way to rid herself of the "parasite". It's called "delivery". Her choice was never removed, the process just changed a bit. She was not in any way bound to carry the baby, but on the final day of pregnancy is it most assuredly a "baby" and not a "fetus". And for the record, that slope has already been slipped. 36 states already make third trimester abortions illegal except to protect the life of the mother. There's nothing new here.

[Thickasabrick]

154. I disagree. Just because 3rd trimester abortions are illegal in

36 states doesn't make the parasite "a person". Again, it is not a person until it is outside the womb. She didn't choose not to let it out. There is nowhere in the article that indicates she blocked her birthing canal to prevent the birth.

[Xithras]

155. Did you miss the "she was having contractions" part?

Her body was preparing to eject the child anyway. She simply wanted it dead. And FWIW, I've always thought "it is not a person until it is outside the womb" was a silly argument. From a scientific standpoint, it's a person once the brain is fully developed AND its capable of surviving outside of the mothers womb. In my book, science trumps all.

Look, what's important here is that women never lose the right to end their pregnancies, and acknowledging that a preborn baby is human doesn't infringe on that right. The only thing that changes is the method used to end it. In the earlier stages of pregnancy, a woman may terminate her pregnancy at any time by abortion. Once the pregnancy develops enough so that the fetus becomes an independent being in and of itself, the method of terminating the pregnancy changes, but not her right to terminate. Once the child is viable, she may simply induce or have the child removed via Cesarean. No undue burden is placed on the mother, and the right to exist enjoyed by every human being is preserved for the baby.

[Thickasabrick]

158. Ya...I missed the contractions part. I think you're missing a bigger

part also. You keep saying a woman may terminate her pregnancy at any time. Not so. If she doesn't have the money what is she suppose to do? Maybe she kept putting it off thinking somehow she would find the money or it would just miscarry on it's own. There is no telling what kind of crap she tried to get rid of it earlier. It very likely could have been born brain damaged anyway depending on how many times she kept hitting herself in the stomach - I'm not sure she actually did this - just saying it's possible.

Maybe there are alot of things about this pregnancy that noone else is aware of. The point is, she wanted an abortion and she didn't have the means to do it. Tell me please, what does a woman do who doesn't have the means to opt for an early term abortion?

Until someone can tell me how easy it would be for her to have had an abortion when she wanted one, it's not fucking murder.

[greccogirl]

219. She delivers

the baby and gives it up for ADOPTION. No more baby, no more problem.

[Marie26]

216. Third-trimester abortions are illegal in Virginia. nt

[progressivebydesign]

228. Nope... bullshit. It's murder if it's a viable being outside the womb.

That is the standard by which they decide who to try for murder if an unborn child is killed. If her boyfriend had shot the baby, he would be in prison right now. IF the person that provided the gun had killed the baby, they would be in prison. JUST because she was carrying the child does NOT make it okay to murder it. Shooting a baby that is about to be born is not a legal abortion.

Frankly, the bullshit I've seen on this thread... giving this woman who planned the murder of her baby, is enough to make me reconsider my pro-choice beliefs. It makes me want to cry to see that someone old enough to type on a computer would actually consider a baby, within hours of being born, a fucking PARASITE. May god have mercy on you.

[outofbounds]

156. I cant imagine anyone thinking this act isn't criminal.

Has a friend load a gun
Gets in car and shots her unborn child, through her stomach, on his/her birthday.
Makes up a story about some one else shooting her.

She knew it was wrong otherwise she wouldn't have tried to hide that she did it.
Poor, abused, misguided, desperate? None of thees are reasons, they are excuses. This woman belongs in a mental hospital, she is insane.

[LostinVA]

166. You totally contradict yourself

You say it was a criminal act, she was only making excuses... then said she's insane and needs to be in a mental institution. Your two POVs contradict each other completely. If you're insane, you can't commit a knowingly criminal act nor make excuses... which is it?

And, noticing your gender, how can you EVER know what it's like to be in this woman's shoes?

[outofbounds]

171. I don't have to wear her shoes

to know that shooting oneself to cause an abortion is never an "option". And why? Because her useless excuse of a boy friend said no one would want her with three kids. Gender has nothing to do with it. She belongs in an institution for the Criminally Insane.
You know men can feel desperate when they are faced with the possibility of being a father. The thing is they have no say whatsoever in the matter.
I'm not going to change your view on this issue as you will not change mine. I wish you well.

[Lyric]

180. This seems to be a case of temporary insanity

not murder. Sane people do no shoot themselves in the stomach, whether there's a baby there or not. The fact that she later realized that what she did was wrong is evidence that the insanity was temporary. Frankly, we don't know for sure if she expected to die along with the baby or not. It could have been as much a suicide attempt as anything.

This women doesn't belong in jail, she belongs in intense therapy. She won't have children again, thank goodness. Gunshot wounds to the uterus and the subsequent scar tissue/damage tend to make future pregnancies highly unlikely. It's ridiculous to punish someone for what they did when they were not in their right mind, so the focus should be on restoring her mental health so she can care for the two children she still has. The baby is dead, but there are still two little ones who need a mother. If psychiatric evaluation concludes that she is a danger to the children who are still alive, then the state needs to find permanent adoptive homes for them ASAP. I'd imagine that there are plenty of people willing to care for them--high profile cases involving needy children always bring in a blizzard of offers to adopt.

To prevent this in the future, let's work on fixing the underlying causes. Poverty, affordable and safe early abortion access, free support services for pregnant women, better education about contraceptives. I went to high school in rural Virginia, and I assure you--the sex ed classes there mention contraceptives about as often as Dubya mentions his intense admiration for Nancy Pelosi.

[Marie26]

231. We just don't know

Yes, I'm sure that she was under stress and emotionally distraught. But does that mean she was insane? Most people who commit violent crimes are under major stress or at a crisis point in their lives - that doesn't change the fact that the act was a crime. If she's truly mentally ill, I agree that she needs to recieve therapy and medication. But the article makes no mention of a mental illness. And the fact that she later lied & attempted to cover it up suggests that she did think it was illegal, and did know the consequences of her action. IMO, this just doesn't seem like temporary insanity. Regardless, it does not seem like a safe situation for the other children in that household. I totally agree that schools need to have more sex ed and abortions need to be more accessible to prevent similar tragedies in the future. But I do think that this woman committed a crime.

[piedmont]

251. Shooting one's self in the abdomen with a firearm

rather than have a delivery in a hospital doesn't strike me as a sane act. If anybody else had done this to her, I'd be all for trying them for murder. But I just can't see how this can be viewed as anything but the product of mental illness brought on by extreme stress (and possibly hormones).
As I've said before, the person who gave her a loaded gun should be charged with homicide.

[Marie26]

253. Agree there,

if that person knew what the gun would be used for. I don't know, maybe I've just seen too many sane people do extremely irrational, stupid acts of bad judgment to believe that someone must have a mental illness to do such a thing. Maybe she is mentally ill, but I'm not sure it's a given.

[piedmont]

255. thanks Marie,

On a side note-- I've seen mental illness firsthand, and from what I have experienced I can say that 1) it can happen to anyone (even very smart, logical people) 2) stress always makes things worse 3) it's not always noticeable to others and 4)it's not always chronic and debilitating.
The legal definition of "insanity" may differ in practice from the medical definition of "mental illness." I may try to look that up.

But I've never heard of anyone shooting themselves in a vital body part and not being found insane. The practical aspects of taking this to a jury and proving she was sane at the time of the act had to be too daunting for the prosecutors or else they would have tried.

[progressivebydesign]

227. I'm with you outofbounds. Pre-meditated murder.

She should not be allowed to go on living with her children as if nothing happened. She's either mentally ill, or just plain evil. But judging from the pre-meditation and the lies, I opt for the latter.

[noamnety]

179. People react to shocking situations

in shocking ways.

“It’s a system!”

... now Graham’s children have been taken from her by authorities — except for 4-week-old Jarron. He is in a hospital after a horrific event that has stunned police and prosecutors, and prompted strangers who read about him to offer to adopt the boy: Authorities say she grabbed the infant by his feet and swung him, hitting her boyfriend and fracturing the baby’s skull.

... Erie County’s Office of Children and Youth, like other child welfare agencies in the state, can’t comment on whether Graham had a history of abuse. But defense attorney Alison Scarpitti said: “There’s nothing in her background (to indicate) she would do anything to harm a child.”

... David Agresti, defense co-counsel, believes there’s no doubt that Graham is a victim of domestic abuse. “Neighbors have stated it was routine at the house,” he said. Police are investigating.

... Graham has no criminal record; Troop was arrested in June and charged with possession of crack cocaine and other crimes for allegedly fleeing from police after being involved in a domestic dispute, court records indicate. He faces a preliminary hearing in November.

http://stangoff.com/?p=389

[Marie26]

215. This makes me uneasy.

Though I'm pro-choice, stories like this bother me. If she'd waited two days, she'd be charged w/murder. If someone else had shot her & she miscarried, that person would be charged w/murder. But this is OK?

[greccogirl]

220. No, it

isn't Ok. And I'm with you.............

[Lilith Velkor]

235. Yeah, how dare a judge make a judgement call!

In fact, there should be mandatory minimum sentences for everything, regardless of circumstances and facts. The law must be upheld, fuck compassion, we got plenty of room in our prisons, and we can save money by dispensing with criminal-coddling bullshit like fair trials.

:sarcasm:

[Marie26]

237. I'm glad we agree.

Was there an actual point in that collection of strawmen & random rants?

[Lilith Velkor]

240. The red dripping letters at the bottom of my post spell a word

If you were to look up that word in a dictionary, the meaning of my post might become clearer to you.

[Marie26]

The question was,

Do you have anything to offer besides strawmen & random rants? It appears the answer is no.

[Lilith Velkor]

249. Pointing out the fact that it's a judge's job to judge is not a strawman

Part of a judge's job is examining facts pertinent to the case, and weighing extenuating circumstances, such as, hm let's see, being crazy enough to shoot a hole in her fucking uterus.

Sorry if you are uncomfortable with that fact, but your discomfort does not make it a fallacy.

[Marie26]

252. Judges can be wrong

Or are you saying we can't question the judgment of the Supreme Court justices that voted to stop the Florida recount? Or imprison Japanese-Americans? This judge, if you read the article, did not decide that the woman was crazy or had extenuating circumstances. He dismissed the charge because, in his judgment, a woman cannot be charged w/performing an illegal abortion when she herself is the expectent mother. Under VA law, abortions in the third trimester are illegal, and the state statute makes it a crime for any person to cause an illegal abortion. The judge believed that "expectent mother immunity" protects the pregnant woman from prosecution under this statute - but that doctrine actually is from another state, and hasn't been applied yet in Virginia. So, the question is, should expectant mothers be exempt from prosecution, even when an act meets the legal definition of the crime? Under what circumstances? I think people can reasonably fall on either side of this question.

That's the first point - was this legal? The second point is - was this moral? You don't seem to understand the distinction between the two, and that an act may be both legal and immoral. I can be "uncomfortable" w/something that is perfectly legal, and that doesn't mean that I think people should be thrown in jail for it. I'm "uncomfortable" when people make racist comments, but that doesn't mean I think it's a crime. OK? Seeing the difference here? I believe this woman's action may be legal, but it was certainly immoral. And I'm sorry, but we all have the right to feel "uncomfortable" with something we believe is morally wrong. Thanks for presenting an actual point for discussion - you're improving!

[Marie26]

242. ...

[jazzjunkysue]

221. This is family court stuff, not criminal. She should be monitored by

child protective, but not sent to jail.

She should be given a caseworker and public assistance, and the two kids should be watched closely.

Putting her in jail accomplishes nothing. Those kids need better parents. That boyfriend is not a viable option for those 2 kids.

And maybe this is a time to council her to get her tubes tied. But not forced.

[progressivebydesign]

224. Of course it's murder. Geez. If she shot it 8 hours later it would be murder.

That judge is wrong. Flat wrong. She could have given that baby up for adoption AT THE HOSPITAL. She killed a baby that was hours away from being born, and would have survived outside the womb. It's murder. I don't give a fuck how poor she was.. or how lost she was. I was both and never shot a baby to death.

I'm totally pro-choice, but this was murder. At the very least he should have had her committed for psychological evaluation, AND had her current children taken to live with a responsible relative until they could find out if she's going to kill her other children when she gets too stressed out.

[progressivebydesign]

226. And if the father of the baby, or a stranger shot her and killed the baby.

They would be in prison for first degree murder. The judge was wrong. Poverty is NO excuse.

[alphafemale]

230. If she had had REAL options, early on, there is almost NO chance this...

...would have happened.

That this happened is horrifying.

But, I put this in the Andrea Yates category.
No one in a stable mental state would have been driven to such an act.

Is she a criminal?
First you'd have to find she was sane at the time.

Is she a danger to herself and others at least during this act?
Obviously.

Does she continue to be a danger to herself and others?
I guess a professional should have determined that.

I just know this story is so sad my heart literally aches.

[0rganism]

236. Of course, the anti-choice advocate gets it wrong again...

From the article:
> Based on the rights granted to women under Roe vs. Wade, Scheidler <executive director of the Pro-Life Action League in Chicago>
> was hardly surprised that there was debate over the Skinner case.

This isn't even Roe v. Wade territory! The 3rd-trimester unborn was clearly within the realms of the state's compelling interest, therefore prosecutable. From what I read in the rest of the article, the rationale for dropping charges was rooted in problems with the state law, not federal caselaw, and some question of the defendent's mental competence to stand trial. I don't know if Virginia state judges publish their opinions regularly, but IMHO if there is anything to it, this one should be read in full before we rush to apply our own sensibiltiies whatever they may be to the case. I'll keep an eye out for it on findlaw.

[Spinoza]

238. As a radically pro-choice advocate,

I can appreciate the arguments that a mother who terminates the life of a fetus while inside her body, even 1 minute before birth, has NOT committed murder. But I must admit one scenario bothers me. Let's say, a woman WANTS to give birth. On the day of her scheduled Caesarian the childs father (it could be anyone but lets make it the father for arguments sake) who does not want the mother to give birth, kicks the mother in her stomach in a deliberate effort to kill the fetus, which he does. The mother is not seriously harmed. I have a hard time NOT charging the man with murder. And yet, the radical pro-choice position CANNOT charge the man with murder. Thoughts?

[Yupster]

239. I think the "radical" pro-choice position would be

that it would be murder if the dad did it because the woman wanted the baby born, but it wouldn't be murder if the mom did it because the woman didn't want it born.

[Spinoza]

241. But that would be logically incomprehensible.

If the fetus, one minute before birth, is considered a human being, it MUST be murder WHOEVER kills the fetus. If the fetus, one minute before birth is NOT a human being than it CANNOT be murder, WHOEVER kills the fetus. I am on the side that it is NOT murder no matter who does it. But I admit that my belief leaves me uncomfortable and unhappy under the scenario I described.

[piedmont]

243. out of curiosity,

does any state or nation allow "elective" abortion (i.e. not because of any danger to the mother) up to the minute of birth?

[slackmaster]

246. Vermont is the only state that has no restrictions

Although it still has a pre-Roe ban on the books.



About half the states have a "post-viability" restriction with exceptions for the woman's health. Definitions of viability vary.

Some of the states that allow third trimester abortions have waiting periods (e.g. Texas).

See http://www.stateline.org/live/ViewPage.action?siteNodeId=136&languageId=1&contentId=121780

[piedmont]

250. interesting.

thanks, slack

[greccogirl]

256. And that is

simply not rational nor logical.

[superconnected]

244. Seems like she should have gotten a mandatory sanitarium stay

I don't care what her financial means were, there are safer ways to do abortions to oneself a lot earlier.

Her method and timing were batshit crazy.

other than that, I have to laugh at the ppl on this thread that consider it a baby the mintue it pops out and not a mintue before. Fuck! Thats some of the most anti-evolved stuff I've ever read on du. And I'm waay pro choice.

[slackmaster]

247. I'd fine her for discharging a firearm within city limits

:nuke:

[Yupster]

257. Having watched my kid born via Caesarian,

it is completely nuts to claim it's not a kid one second and is the next. I saw the kid on the sonogram, and then one minute later when the doctor went to get him, and I can guarantee it was the same kid.

[NuttyFluffers]

259. terribly inconvenient method, good judicial call

i'd also get her some therapy and someone to teach he how to use a phone book, internet, or library as to find resources to help her whenever she's in such danger again.

other than that, it's a sad state of affairs, but oh well, could've been worse. :shrug: