Al-Qa'eda is winning the war of ideas, says UK Home Secretary

[T_i_B]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=GKNGIG4IT13ZFQFIQMFSFFWAVCBQ0IV0?xml=/news/2006/10/22/nterr22.xml

John Reid has issued a dire warning that the Government risks losing the "battle of ideas" with al-Qa'eda. The Home Secretary spoke out at an emergency meeting of ministers and security officials amid an ever-growing threat from home-grown Islamist terror groups.

He called for an urgent but controversial escalation in the propaganda war and said al-Qa'eda's so-called "single extremist narrative" was proving ever more attractive to young British Muslims. The Government needed to do much more to win the "battle of ideas", Mr Reid said.

A key government weapon in the struggle to win hearts and minds is the decision to fund covertly an Islamic website appealing for moderation. A classic of New Labour terminology, it is called the Radical Middle Way. Government documents disclose that the site is "run as a grassroots initiative by Muslim organisations". However, it has "most of its financial backing from the Foreign Office and Home Office". The site uses video and podcasts to spread an "alternative message" to young Muslims. Some content is available through the iTunes website with no indication that it is effectively an arm of Government.

Around 100,000 CDs promoting moderation have also been funded and distributed free to Muslim students as an "antidote", apparently, to the jihadist CDs circulated at universities and colleges.

[xchrom]

1. d'uh!

the appeal of al queada extremism is as much rooted in sticking it to the west as anything else.

the middle east, indonesia, pakistan and other places have watched the west benefit from an uneven, heavy handed relationship -- where the west got fat and the ''muslim'' world got lean.

our approach in iraq has simply FUELED almost every fire in the middle east that is anti-western including al queda.

it's common sense{something that consrvatives love to claim, but exhibit little of} to grow policies that support the man and woman in the street if you are from a democracy -- but we could never, ever manage that.

so now the present generations must pay for the ''sins'' of our fathers.

[T_i_B]

2. I can actually see the logic in what Reid is doing for once

And that's not a normal occurrence, as anyone who visits the UK forum may well discover.

You see, whatever legitimate concerns are being expressed, there is also something else fueling all this, namely the theology of Jihad. Therefore if were are beat the jihadi's we not only need to rob them of an excuse to wage jihad but also to take on the whole theology of Jihad. The problem here is that theology is a very exasperating subject, at times incomprehensible to the unbeliever and also, Muslims probably won't take too kindly to being lectured on religious matters by the infidel anyway.

Anyway, here's the website being discussed in the article for your reference.

http://www.radicalmiddleway.co.uk/

[xchrom]

7. i agree with you in part.

we have our own problems with radical theology here.

however a good deal of the ''radically'' theology we see can ameliorated and in some cases disappear if wealth were allocated a good deal differently.

and as we all know with wealth cames a reallocation of power.

there is appeal for this -- especially for cultures that feel under assault{rightfully so} -- as it can mitigate or stop the mass migrations{i'm using migration rather than immigration on purpose} we've been seeing.

what's left will provide everyone a better, more real look at the pathology that plagues the world.

[PsychoDad]

13. The theology of Jihad...

Needs to be presented in a different light.

Jihad means struggle, and the greater struggle is for social justice.

The best way to weaken the "west" (corporate globalists, colonial powers) is not through war, but through the empowerment of those are oppressed by injustice.

Spend the money for weapons to feed your starving children. Turn you passion to die for Allah into helping your Brother live another day in the name of Allah. Don't preach hate, instead educate.

Indeed we must Jihad, Global Jihad for social justice in a world of oppression. From Baghdad to New Orleans.

That's the Jihad the Prophet(saw) taught. Anything else is bidah. Surely the Quran states that Allah hates to Aggressor and oppressor.

That's the message that is being fought for in the Islamic world today.

[T_i_B]

20. Question

Sorry to ask this, but what is "Bidah"?

I must admit that I'm not familiar with these terms.

[PsychoDad]

26. Bidah is innovation.

There is a tenant that the religion should remain pure, that the teachings of Muhammad(pubh) and the basis of Islam should not be altered. (things like the prayers, The teachings of the Quran, the pillars of Islam, etc.)

We can see how well that has worked by looking at the modern Islamic world.:( There has been a great deal of departure from the teachings of the Prophet... Just as many so called "christians" have strayed far from the teachings of Jesus (pbuh)

The Quran gives very clear rules about how, when and why any warfare should be carried out. Flying planes into buildings and suicide bombers and nuclear weapons do not fit in. Any attempt to say that they do is Bidah, or innovation, an altering of the teachings of the faith based upon an incorrect teaching by persons with political agendas.


Peace, and Happy Eid.
:party:

[T_i_B]

29. Thanks, & Happy Eid!

[CJCRANE]

23. It's not logical

because he is not doing it in good faith.

You can't punch someone in the face then say "look mate, you need to calm down", which is basically what the Blairites are doing with their combination of aggressive foreign policy and fearmongering domestic policy.

[TheBaldyMan]

3. More accurate: the allies are LOSING the war of ideas

how in hell's name a group that espouses suicide attacks and indiscriminate targeting of civilians can possibly be out-manoeuvreing the western governments?

I get tired of hearing how the Pentagon and neo-con twerps have studied Sun-Tzu and Mao's doctrine for guerrilla warfare and still screw things up. They must have been speed-reading and just skimmed over it, missing the central principles. They have repeatedly ignored everything they could have learned from it.

[malaise]

12. Bingo

with their slaughter of innocents. How fugging dumb are these people.

[saigon68]

24. Shit like this doesn't help

[Zybelline]

18. habeas corpus gone, Guantanamo, Diebold, Halliburton.. losing war of ideas

almost inconceivable that the west can be on the defensive against a religious ideology that produces saudi arabia morrocco egypt pakistan torture in prison is expected corruption repression violence no scientific progress nostalgic for past glories of the caliphate violent spread of the religion in 6th century and since then

only the most inept cretins around bush could possibly be losing ground for the west

losing habeas corpus last week that's how u lose the war of ideas

[Guaranteed]

30. You got it. We should be looking to the wisdom

the country was founded on....

[C_U_L8R]

4. consider the alternative

our side has come to represent xenophobia, religious intolerence,
forced extraditions, waterboarding and other tortures, illegal wiretapping
and disregard of habeas corpus.

they may have a point.

[Demeter]

5. Exactly! US "Ideas" Not Designed To Win Hearts, Minds or Wars

So when it comes to comparing means of destruction and despair, the Iraqis beat us hands down.

[Igel]

11. Oddly, it wasn't until I got half way through the second

line of your post that I realized you were on the losing side.

The winning side has come to represent xenophobia, communalism, religious intolerance, ethnic cleansing and subjugation, beheading and other forms of extreme corporal punishment, crushing of dissent and imposed uniformity, and a disregard for any form of what the West once considered natural rights (habeas corpus? ha!). But it's dishonorable to say this about their own group, so people prefer to see only the positive--and to consider these things not as necessary evils, but as positive goods. Booty and the heady sense of superiority that comes from abusing the subjugated.

Obviously a winning strategy.

Never hurts to tell the poor they're owed stuff, bear no responsibility, and are, in fact, better than others and wronged by an outside oppressor. The chant of populists everywhere ... usually a winning strategy. For the leaders.

[MrPrax]

17. Exactly...

What theology is fueling OUR Jihad in nevre discussed?

Not really too sure what 'moderate' ideas OUR GOVERNMENTS want to tell Muslim citizens that they don't want to tell us. It would be nice if they related to us in a Radical Middle Way...instead of a Radical Rightwing Way.

So the UK government is going to tell Muslims that being moderate means what...ignoring 170 or nations and attacking Iraq anyway...for unmoderate reasons that turned out to be a complete fabrication.

I am sure moderate Muslims will listen to the Labour Party's message via government propaganda channels openly disseminated at a targeted domestic audience; the government could tell 'moderate Muslims' all about what a free and democratic society is all about and how you are allowed to think what you want without the government establishing an official religious codes like they do in Egypt or Jordan.

Reminisicent of the Howard government tirade that 'muslims' are doing enough to help rightwing warmonger parties fight the war on terror.

[T_i_B]

19. "Radical Middle Way"

Not really too sure what 'moderate' ideas OUR GOVERNMENTS want to tell Muslim citizens that they don't want to tell us.

It's not that people don't want to tell you, it's more that Islamic theology is not really relevant to non-muslims.

It would be nice if they related to us in a Radical Middle Way...instead of a Radical Rightwing Way.

Well if you want you could always read the website to see what this "Radical Middle Way" gumph actually relates to

http://www.radicalmiddleway.co.uk/

And I hate to break the news to you but Tony Blair has been trying to sell "Radical Middle Way" theories in some form or another for as long as he's been leader of the Labour party (remember the 3rd way?). What is means in practice however is open to debate.

[MrPrax]

27. you read what you want...

and clearly don't understand our 'western traditions'

First,

It's not that people don't want to tell you, it's more that Islamic theology is not really relevant to non-muslims. .

Well they do expect EQUAL treatment -- that's a western value. So your best argument is that there is an expectation that the government comment on 'theology'? That hasn't been a 'western value' for quite sometime, but you don't see any problems.

Now afar as non-muslims, I put it to you that this is exactly the type of site for non-muslims love, because it makes the case there is a problem with Islam? It's so violent that the gubbermint has to pay people to run around and convince 'youth' not to be violent. That's certainly the impression the usual right suspects love to underscore.

Would this type of site work for Christians in Britain whose Youth might be swayed by, say the National Front? I think we can both agree that it wouldn't and for the same reasons it is a non-starter here. But then again some people want to convince us there is a PROBLEM with Islam and NOT the policies of Tony Blair's Labour government.

Second,

Well if you want you could always read the website to see what this "Radical Middle Way" gumph actually relates to

Been there TWICE now -- what was I suppose to see that would make me think that an political appeal 'to British Muslim youth' to stop being critical of the British labour government's policies of killing Muslims, detaining them and locking them up without charges, based on racial profiling, is still unacceptable in a democracy?

What smearing an entire religion because of what a few of it's members do in some Third World country through the implication that Muslims are violent? Jeez can't imagine what the hue and cry would be if Greensboro Baptists were made the template of Christianity and then the government produced political propaganda smearing every other Christian with the actions of the Phelps (kill gays) or even the Robertsons (kill Chavez), or the 'by all means necessary' Pro-Life crowd (kill doctors).

Since you and I very well know that appeals to 'youth' regarding 'drugs' is a mostly a ideological political campaign that has had virtually NO influence or success over the many many decades that they have been around, you seem to think this will work? Accomplish what? Convince a British Muslim Youth not to use --what--violence?

The public school system in Britian doesn't already teach this fact?

Doesn't the school system, like here, teach that extraordinary violence done by nations is perfectly acceptable, while opposing it is formally done through the system of parliament? hmmm...?

But your convinced they need extra help (via the Labour gov't) because they are British Muslim Youth and we'll assume there is some 'vast' terror network out there just waiting to pounce on their loyalities, huh?

The whole premise is fucked and hardly settled logic to begin with unless you are a shameless criminal government wanting to 'deflect' legitimate Muslim, British or Youth anger towards an unjust and criminal war.

Usually in a democracy we give the SAME and EQUAL respect to all our citizens and their particular religion regardless of the extremists in those religions. We take as an assumption ALL citizens will uphold the law, participate and renounce the use of violence --

I assume that about you regardless of your religion, ideas or party preference ;-)

[T_i_B]

28. Like I said earlier in the thread..

This is about THEOLOGICAL arguments against Jihad. These arguments are not really relevent or understandable to us infidel. Do try and understand that, rather then making baseless comments about the BNP or the British Education system. This is about what goes on in our mosques, not our schools, churches or even in parliament.

If people belive in Jihadi theology then the chances are that they will find an excuse to use violence regardless of what we do. Thefore tackling Jihadi theology has to be part of the solution, and much like getting out of Iraq it ain't easy in the slightest.

[spooked911]

6. What "GOOD IDEAS" have we given in Iraq?

Besides war-profiteering, torture, killing lots of people and blowing things up?

[soothsayer]

8. theoretically, democracy. They went straight to corruption--very

fast learners!

[saigon68]

25. Here's "GOOD IDEA" that got "OUT OF HAND"

[ananda]

9. That would be because the USA..

.. doesn't -have- ideas, only guns and bombs.

[BeyondGeography]

10. Ideas? We're not even playing that game

This is the land of make believe. Show me the money. I want my MTV. We re-elected Bush. That shows you how serious this country is about ideas.

[bemildred]

14. What ideas?

This is more like dueling platitudes.

[Tempest]

15. The west is shooting itself in the foot when it comes to Muslims

Especially when you have idiots like this running around:


THE leader of Scotland's Roman Catholics, Cardinal Keith O'Brien, has called for Muslims to apologise for the 9/11 and 7/7 bomb attacks, declaring that the public should not have to live "in fear of attack" from believers of the Islamic faith.

In a move that has provoked a storm of outrage, the cardinal claims that, as the Pope apologised for the offence caused last month by his comments on the Islamic faith, so Muslims should now step up and say sorry for the attacks carried out in the name of their faith.

[gorbal]

16. Do they mean Al-Qa'eda- or is it something else?

A lot of people have legimate gripes against this "New World Order" being force fed down everyone's mouth. Why is it necessarily "Al-Qa'eda"?

[wickerwoman]

21. That's because we both have the same "idea"...

Bomb the shit out of people until they believe what we do.

Wonder why that isn't working out so hot...

And it isn't just (or even primarily) al Qaeda that is telling young Muslims that Islam=violence. What other role models does the Western media give them? It's like treating all black people like gangsters in America. A certain percentage are going to say "fuck it- I'm treated like a thug whether I act like one or not, so I might as well get the benefit as well."

[CJCRANE]

22. How many people need

to tell the Neocons/Blairites that it is their foreign policy fuelling extremism before they get it?

MI6 and CIA warned them before the Iraq invasion. Recently the (US) NIE and (UK) General Dannatt have said similar things.

Polls have shown the same thing.

Will it take Laura and Barney turning against them?