Macabre Photos Disgrace German Military

[Kellanved]

Five photos threaten to stain the German military's reputation just as the country debates its role in international security operations. The images, showing German soldiers posing with a skull near Kabul, have sparked outrage from the government and may increase public reluctance to keep troops abroad.

The photos are unmistakably crass, ranging from a shot of a skull mounted over the headlight of a jeep to a close-up of a soldier holding his penis in his left hand and the skull next to it in his right. These are just two of five photos published Wednesday by the German daily Bild, showing members of German security forces in Afghanistan desecrating human remains evidently found while on patrol near Kabul. Two other photos show the skull affixed to a metal pole -- a "cable cutter" -- that extends vertically like a flag mast from the jeep's front bumper. Another shows a German soldier holding the skull and grinning.

The origin of the skull is not clear. Bild speculates it could come from a Muslim mass grave in the area, or that it could belong to one of many Russian soldiers who died fighting in Afghanistan in the 1980s. Regardless of where it comes from, the damage is done.

A chorus of voices has emerged from the government to express disgust at the photos. German Defense Minister, Franz Josef Jung told reporters: "It is clear and unmistakable that this kind of behavior from German soldiers cannot be tolerated." He added "This behavior is diametrically opposed to the values and behavior we teach and train our soldiers in. The pictures provoke disgust and absolute incomprehension."

...
http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,444610,00.html

[Greeby]

1. They could always say their grandfathers told em to do it

:eyes:

[SpiralHawk]

4. Prescott Bush is involved in this atrocity also?

Those nasty Skull & Boner boys.

I hope America never gets a occult darkside Skull & Boner cabalist in the White House....

[saigon68]

7. Ah Yes DANGER "Graphic Violence"

[RaleighNCDUer]

2. Let's be fair. Germany is a very tradition concious culture -

and they have their traditions to maintain.

[Bonobo]

3. Maybe they were just reenacting a scene from Hamlet?

[nodehopper]

5. whose traditions are US soldiers following?

IMHO it is better to pose with a skull, than do a thumbs-up photoshoot with an alive and tortured "human pyramid"

[MrPrax]

6. That's hazing...!!

Why do I think that the clear outrage of the German government will probably solve this problem -- and not have it turn into

1) amusing fooder for far right radio hosts

("sort of like hazing, a fraternity prank. Sort of like that kind of fun...couldn't have gone all the way to the top (of the Bush administration)... Rush Link

2) an opportunity for government spin

("Defense Focuses on Abu Ghraib Toga Party as Key to Who Was in Charge" http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,222100,00.html">FOX news headline

3) an opening line in a debate to formally recognize torture

("The United States is committed to the world-wide elimination of torture..." Bush Speech 2003...."Abusers point to U.S. example: UN envoy" TorStar

4) or spawn dozens of posts at a progressive board 'supporting the troops' with the usual, 'that's history...Ghengis Khan did worst...are you saying American Marines are worst than Ghengis Khan' logic?'

At least the Germans had 'some fun' with a skull and not some 14 year boy tied to Saddam torture table while marines line up to rape him, so they can get the boy's father to do something or other.

No worry about a skull coming back to life and turning into an insurgent.

[saigon68]

8. This isn't hazing "ITS SHITTING AND GRINNING"

[Bigmack]

9. I don't know where they are....

but somewhere... probably on the web... there are pictures of US troops doing stuff that makes that scenario look like kiddie play time.

Digital cameras plus long periods in combat in a losing war make for some ugly shit.

[knight_of_the_star]

10. This says a lot about us

When something this comparitively innocuous spurs widespread outrage in one country while over here we have people excusing far worse actions, that really says a lot about America.

[rodeodance]

11. AP Paper shows German soldiers desecrating skull

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15410569/

Updated: 6:05 a.m. CT Oct 25, 2006

Paper shows German soldiers desecrating skull
Defense chief pledges to investigate alleged incident in Afghanistan



BERLIN - Germany’s defense minister expressed horror Wednesday at photos that appeared to show German troops in Afghanistan posing with a human skull and pledged that any soldiers found to be involved would be punished.

The macabre pictures were printed by Germany’s biggest-selling daily, Bild, which said they showed German peacekeepers near the capital, Kabul, in early 2003.

The uniformed men were seen holding up the skull and posing with it on a jeep; one is seen exposing himself with the skull. Bild’s headline declared: “German soldiers desecrate a dead person.”
Story continues below ↓ advertisement

The newspaper said it was unclear where the skull came from, or whether it belonged to an Afghan or dated back to the Soviet occupation in the 1980s. It did not say how it obtained the photos.

‘Investigation at full steam’.......

[Solon]

12. Germans torment the dead, Americans torment the living...

What possesses either to behave this way? I really cannot say, all I know is that this is despicable.

[sui generis]

14. speaking from experience

when I was a student hacking apart cadavers in the name of science we did some dreadful things. You're surrounded by the surreal; cutting into someone's face to expose the maxillary sinus while they're staring at you with your McDonalds hamburger & fries sitting on the counter does strange things to your judgement.

Even the instructors did things that were funny, disrespectful, and ultimately part of the learning experience. Try finding a complete set of dentures under someone's gemellus minor.

Although I can vouch there was no southern exposure going on - there are clear limits. I think the limit with a a nameless skull is much farther away from our delicate sensibilities than the limits with a living breathing person.

While I don't at all approve of ze eeefil chermans playing with skulls, I reserve my genuine outrage for the outrages perpetrated on the living.

[bif]

16. Well put!

When my dad was in pre-dent, he had to take anatomy. He told me he used to eat sandwiches while cutting up a cadaver. Wow!

[Solon]

18. There is a difference though...

I mean, I have a skull sitting right next to me right now, I mean, its only a cast, not a real skull, but, then again, Halloween is just around the corner, have to celebrate after all. :)

Of course, there are clear differences between what you did and what these soldiers did. First thing off the top of my head is the fact that the bodies you handled were there by choice, sounds strange, but they were donated, not stolen. Also, any "indignities" done to said bodies were done to learn something, generally, not necessarily for fun.

I mean, for myself, I'm an organ donor, as signed on the back of my driver's license, and, while I don't have a living will yet, I'm still young, after all, I DO want to donate the rest of my body to science. As far as I'm concerned, any med students or research assistants can do what they want after that.

What these soldiers did is akin to grave robbing, something that WAS justifiable back in the 19th century and before by budding medical students, but nowadays is simply atrocious. Doesn't compare to the indignities that happen to the living, I agree, but it also shouldn't be tolerated, and some punishment is called for, if not as severe.

As far as squeamishness or whatnot, I ripped open my own hand in a bicycle accident, saw my own knuckles, and while my mom was driving me to the hospital, I was eating a salami sandwich, I was STILL hungary, after all. :)

Actually, that probably sounds REALLY strange, doesn't it?

[krispos42]

13. This is not particularly good

Especially since it was long after the Taliban was toppled and long before the recent Taliban insurgence. Someone will doubtless bring up the Holocaust.

[sui generis]

15. that's quite a stretch

we're being overly sensitive. It's not the same thing as life and death. Bad form, stupidity, disrespectful, but reality there is a little warped anyway. It doesn't excuse it, but it's NOT the same thing as Abu Ghraib.

The good old U.S.A. is still number one in the "worst" category and no one else is even close.

[Karenina]

22. I think it's ALL FINE!

These images will shock Germany back into reality about supporting this clusterfuck. Been there, done that, don't want to go there again.

[crim son]

17. I take offense at the German-bashing in this thread.

You can hardly generalize the moral conscience of a nation of people based on the actions of a few, any more than I can tell you that you're a sadistic son-of-a-bitch based on the actions of people like pfc Lynndie England.

[0rganism]

20. I agree -- the measure of 'national morality' is in the response of the majority

it is precisely in situations like that of the Abu Ghraib apologetics where we see the true moral bankruptcy of the USA. We would rather dwell in some collective illusion of righteousness, than confront the truth of the situation.

[crim son]

21. Nicely put.

Let us concern ourselves more with American immorality, which is now codified in American law.

[0rganism]

23. thanx - this is not a new problem, tho

If we were to examine the body of American state and federal law, over the last two centuries, we would find so much immorality, so much dehumanization, so many injustices, that the recent ethical absurdities would hardly come as a surprise. And at each juncture, each point of positive change, each recognition of liberties and rights, we find the conflict intensified and the urge to self-righteousness over self-honesty expressed all the stronger -- the last gasps of the indefensible when faced with the undeniable.

I can only hope that in a decade, we will look back on this time as the prelude to another progressive era of openness and intelligent diplomacy, rather than our final collapse into fascist imperialism.

[KansDem]

19. Release the child-rape photos/video that Sy Hersh wrote about...

That should take the pressure off the Germans for awhile...

[Julius Civitatus]

24. self delete

self delete

[JVS]

25. OMG Rudi Moshammer's dog daisy died!

[Kellanved]

26. Yes,

but to communicate such important events here, they have to ne posted under the cover of a less important story.

[JVS]

27. OMG Moshammer was killed in 2005 by an Iraqi male prostitute!

I've got to get to Germany more often

[Heidi]

28. Kick.

:kick:

[sarahlee]

29. Germany shocked by photos of soldiers posing with skull

Photographs of German soldiers posing with a human skull in Afghanistan triggered outrage in Germany today and cast a shadow over government plans to raise its military profile worldwide.

The Bild newspaper, printed a close-up of an unidentified soldier smiling and holding up a skull. Under the headline “German soldiers desecrate the dead”, other photos showed the skull balanced on a jeep and a soldier holding the skull next to his exposed penis.

Germany’s top-selling newspaper said the shots were taken three years ago and showed German peacekeepers near the Afghani capital, Kabul.

The scandal erupted on the day the government unveiled a white paper outlining a bigger role for German troops on international missions. For Germany, this represents a big step forward and extends a recent softening of the nation’s postwar caution regarding direct military participation overseas.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/germany/article/0,,1931378,00.html

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Judi Lynn]

31. Reuters: German embassies tighten security over skull photos

German embassies tighten security over skull photos
Thu Oct 26, 2006 8:55am ET

By Thorsten Severin

BERLIN (Reuters) - Germany warned its embassies to tighten security measures on Thursday amid concerns that photos appearing to show soldiers desecrating a human skull in Afghanistan could harm its army's image abroad.

Germany's Foreign Ministry alerted its missions in the Afghan capital Kabul and across the Middle East after top-selling daily Bild published pictures portraying servicemen in macabre and sometimes obscene poses with the skull.

"The embassies were informed early on about the pictures and made aware of their contents in order that they could take the necessary steps in terms of their security measures," a ministry spokesman said.
(snip)

His criticism echoed that of Chancellor Angela Merkel and came amid fears the images could endanger German troops at a time when the army is increasing its activities outside Germany's borders.
(snip/...)

http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2006-10-26T125456Z_01_L26528081_RTRUKOC_0_US-GERMANY-AFGHAN-DESECRATION.xml&WTmodLoc=NewsHome-C3-worldNews-3

[Odin2005]

32. I don't think the skull cares, it's owner is dead.

It's crass and childish, but I don't see what the outrage is all about.