Wal-Mart's attendance policy criticized

[superconnected]

NEW YORK - At Wal-Mart these days, snowy weather is no longer an excuse for lateness. It had better be a natural disaster like a hurricane or blizzard. And being 10 minutes or more tardy for work three times will earn you a demerit. Too many of those could get you fired.

It's all part of a revised attendance policy implemented earlier this fall that makes Wal-Mart Stores Inc. hourly workers more accountable for excessive unexcused absences and formalizes such penalties.

The new rules already are drawing fire from critics who claim they are the latest attempt by the nation's largest private employer to weed out unhealthy and costly long-term workers as it seeks to cut labor costs.

John Simley, spokesman for Wal-Mart, calls the charges by labor-backed groups "invalid" and said the changes are an enhancement of the company's prior policy.

more...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061101/ap_on_bi_ge/wal_mart_attendance


Read the end of the artical!!!

I didn't see that coming at all.

F*

That is criminal.

[DumpDavisHogg]

1. DEMERITS??? Is this 8th grade or something??? n/t

[Viva_La_Revolution]

3. Home Depot does this too

but at least they call them 'points' instead of demerits.

[Taoschick]

13. The USPS

Does this as well.

[Occulus]

85. No they don't*

and if they do, grieve the shit out of it.

'Demerits' do not exist. Now, 'job discussions', on the other hand...

*Anything goes if you're a casual. Casuals have no union representation, no guaranteed days off, may be mandated to stay over up to four hours, do not receive sick leave or vacation time, may be fired at the discretion of their direct supervisor, and make about half of what a full-time regular postal employee makes.

Did I mention postal management is under a 'hiring freeze'- yet is hiring more and more 'casuals' all the time?

[superconnected]

4. Yeppers - 8th graders. The artical gets worse and worse...

"Documents furnished to The Associated Press by union-backed Wake Up Wal-Mart show that employees must call an 800 number to report all absences and tardiness by an hour before the scheduled start time. They also have to call their manager with the confirmation code they received when calling the hot line number. In the past, employees got permission directly from their store managers.

"After a year of adopting antifamily policy after antifamily policy, Wal-Mart adds further insult to injury by adopting a new restrictive attendance policy that treats hard-working associates like children while penalizing them if, God forbid, they face a child or friend with a medical emergency," said Chris Kofinis, a spokesman at union-backed Wake Up Wal-Mart."

[greccogirl]

49. So did we - that was so the employee and employer had proof of

what tardies when.

[michreject]

92. I had to do this over 30 years ago. It's not new.

"Documents furnished to The Associated Press by union-backed Wake Up Wal-Mart show that employees must call an 800 number to report all absences and tardiness by an hour before the scheduled start time. They also have to call their manager with the confirmation code they received when calling the hot line number. In the past, employees got permission directly from their store managers.

[liberalhistorian]

98. I've been working for over twenty years, and

I've never, ever had to call into an automated line, no matter the job. I always preferred talking to a live person, anyway, to explain the situation.

[michreject]

100. I worked for a large corp.

Had over a million people. At a 5% absentee rate, that's 50,000 people. Large companies have a automated call in system. I hired in, in 76 and the system wasn't new. Had been in place for years.

[Anakin Skywalker]

8. They Do Treat Their Employees Like Children.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

16. There goes my Citizenship Badge!

(4th grade)

It really happened.

[Dem_4_Life]

82. My work does this but calls them occurances ...

but they give you a 5 min wondow so you can clock in at 8:05 and not be late.

[superconnected]

2. Also from the artical -

"In September, Wal-Mart said it will stop offering traditional low-deductible health plans for new hires next year in favor of low-premium plans with higher deductibles. Wal-Mart has maintained that the move will put more health care money and choices in the hands of its more than 1.3 million U.S. workers, but union-backed Wal-Mart critics claim it is pushing the rising costs of health care onto its workers.

Wal-Mart has also received heat from critics for implementing caps on its seven hourly pay grades. Employees who are at or above the cap will not have their pay cut, but they can only get a raise by moving to a higher-paid category."

[angstlessk]

5. See 'tardy for work more than 3 times'..in how long? a quarter? a year?

over the entirety of your employment? WAL MART SUCKS ...AND I WILL NEVER PURCHASE AS MUCH AS A BATTERY FROM THEM!

[Daphne08]

6. "...being 10 minutes or more tardy for work three times

will earn you a demerit..." ???

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

How inspiring it must be for worker morale... to be treated like a child. :sarcasm:

[Solon]

7. This isn't new, they only changed the name of the write ups...

That's what they called it when I worked there, you could be written up for being tardy, too many unexcused absences, or any other reason, management's discretion. However, get 3 write ups and you are fired.

I remember one time, it was the middle of winter, I was supposed to go to work one morning. Anyways, an ice/snow storm hit the night before, then, around 5 AM, my street, a snow route, was plowed. My car was parked on the street. So, at 6 AM I find my car buried up to the windshield in snow and ice. Luckily, most of it was still loose, and it took about a half hour to get most of it off the car, but I encountered another problem, the street side of the car was boxed in by about a foot tall slab of ice that was over 30 feet long, extending down the street. I had about 15 minutes to get to work, at 7 AM, so I went inside and called them up, telling them I'll be a little late because of the car. They bitched and moaned, I basically said that if they want me to get to work on time, they are welcome to come and get me, until then, I'll get in when I can, not a minute before.

It took 45 minutes to try to break through the ice, I actually gave up on it, it was as hard as concrete, so I put boards under my tires and, with the help of 3 friends pushing the car, floored it to get OVER that damned ice. The car actually BOTTOMED OUT on it. It was interesting, the car was extending a little out into the street, balanced on the damned ice. The only good thing was that the car was front wheel drive, so my buddies LIFTED the back-end of the car, till I could get traction on the cleared center of the street, and I was able to work the car onto the street, and was able to get into work, an hour late. I probably would have been in deep trouble for that except for the fact that only half the shift showed up that day, they let it slide, that time.

[ima_sinnic]

9. I punched a timeclock for about 15 yrs at printing companies

-- my heart goes out to the clock-punchers of the world. I was chronically a few minutes late and they always made a big deal out of it. I eventually rose into salaried management jobs but I hated the office scene, too. Now I'm a self-employed copy editor and it is heavenly. I just wish all WalMart workers could afford to take their jobs and shove 'em. I haven't spent a dime at WalMart for years and I never will.

[greccogirl]

50. At the company I worked at

for 24 years if you had to be at work at 8, and you punched in later than 7:59, you were late.

[Systematic Chaos]

10. I once walked into and straight out of a Taco Bell because of a sign.

It was in plain sight but not obvious unless you looked up on the wall above the counter itself, rather than at the menus behind the cashiers' heads. It read something like this:

Work Priorities

1) Taking orders
2) Prep work
3) Cleaning dining area
4) Cleaning restrooms
5) Cleaning prep areas
6) Stocking of supplies
.
.
.
and at the very bottom was Breaks

I thought if the management was that anal retentive, I'd go eat somewhere else that didn't treat their employees like they just fell off the turnip truck.

[Huskerchub]

11. Oh My GAWD!!!!

You mean they actually expected their employees to work while on the clock!! The Bastages! How F'in dare they! I mean really why the hell would you take a customers order or prepare the food or wipe a table or clean a rest room when you could be on "break" for 8 hrs and still get paid for it! Let me guess, who would be THE FIRST one screaming at the top of your lungs if you walk into Taco Bell and all the employees were standing around talking to each other and being "on break" while you were standing there trying to order your food and get it eaten over your alloted lunch hour. Oh wait, like everyone else who has posted in this thread, you must not punch a clock or you have an employer that lets you waltz in and out at your leisure.

[silverlib]

12. This discussion

is not about "bad employees." It is about bad management. You have missed the point.

This isn't about an employee's work ethic - it's about the treatment of workers.

And by the way - "Oh My GAWD" back to you.

[Huskerchub]

72. so the note

was to other managers? I'm thinking not...it was to the employees.

[liberalhistorian]

76. And we all know that all managers are always

responsible, hard-working and reliable and they all would never, ever, ever treat any employee like crud or expect them to be robots. :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

Look, I've also been a manager as well as an employee (briefly, and a very badly-paid one as well-again, it was in food services/retail), and I don't deny that there are bad employees. But I also know that, when I treated the employees as if they were actually human beings, and with respect and consideration, I got a helluva lot more productivity and morale out of them than if I'd been a whip-cracking asshole.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

102. Tell me, what are your opinions about unions? -nt

[bperci108]

20. Every worker deserves at least of modicum of respect.

Even if it's a shitty minimum wage job.

Stuff like that sign, or a draconian process like the Wal-Fart call-in procedure, is just there to remind the worker that he/she is really no more than a commodity to the employer.

Another term for it is Management by intimidation.

Perhaps you need to dust off your empathy a little. ;)


BTW - welcome to DU. :hi:

[meow2u3]

29. Management by intimidation is not the phrase

"Another term for it is Management by intimidation."

It's called bullying, plain and simple!

[bperci108]

53. Yes, but...

"Management by bullying" just doesn't have the same ring... ;)




:rofl:

[wicket]

40. Well said

:kick:

[DocSavage]

79. It is a 2 way street

The job is owned by the company, not the other way around. The company hires you to perform a function. To perform that function you have to be there. If you are late, and after hearing the discussion on CNBC about this policy this afternoon, you can call in and get excused, you are not performing that function.

I had employees that could not make it to work on time, tried a lot of things, flex time, different schedules during times kids were in school, but they were just always late. Figured they could be late somewhere else.

Life sucks. Sucks worse if you cannot be dependable and reliable.

[ima_sinnic]

24. if they paid them "by the taco" instead of "by the hour" you can bet

they'd be busting @$$. They'd get there early and stay late. This would be a win-win-win for the employee, customer, and TB owners--but I guess it would be a little too "socialist." No, better that an employee is "owned" by the company. Even if a great employee can do his/her work in half the time as another one, he or she must still "look busy" because until 4:30 comes, employees are nothing but another "resource" that is "owned" by the company.

yeah, oh my GAWD, employees should be treated like S**T and made to feel like 3rd-class citizens because they have the "privilege" of wrapping beef by-products in taco shells for $6/hr.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[greccogirl]

51. An absence of more than 3 days

in LOTS of companies results in FMLA. It did in mine (24 years).

[liberalhistorian]

54. And I repeat that that is bullshit,

especially if you have sick days and you haven't used them all. They do that partly because FMLA is unpaid and they don't have to deal with giving you your rightfully earned sick days. Most normal illnesses last longer than three days, and even if you're feeling better, you're generally still either contagious or not up to full capacity. It's just another way for employers to screw you over.

[superconnected]

30. Perhaps you should read the article

The whole point is at the end.

Walmart is making it a 1-800 number that's computerized to get rid of the human defrenciation of letting someone off easy for their reason why they were late. Now nobody gets let off for it, it counts against them no matter what it was.

7 lates and the person is fired.

An emergency will count against them even if they have no kids. That means a flood like katrina will make these people elegible to be fired. A snow storm counts against them. If their car gets stolen(mine did once but I didn't work at wallmart), or a family member suddenly dies - hey my dad died when I was on the way to work one day (luckily I didnt work at wallmart, I'd have had a 2nd demerit for going to the funeral, or how about that time I had to take him to the hospital for a stroke.... hmmmm more counts against me.) Emergencies happen. That's the problem with hiring humans. Hey, I remember being a commuter for the city of seattle, sometimes the bus was late and there were times when it didn't come at all.

People should not be treated like robots. Things happen. Their demerit system is scary because they are a leader in spreading dehumanizing workplace ethics.

[Huskerchub]

74. If you are talking to me...

don't pretend to lecture me on WalMart policy. I've know about this policy for weeks now, my mother is a WalMart employee. TRUST ME, I know how this POS company treats it's employees. Also, get this, it also STOPS the managers playing favorites with certain employees!

[wicket]

37. Reading comprehension

Look into it.

[Huskerchub]

70. If you are refering to me...

you must have the comprehension problems. I WAS NOT discussing the WalMart issue or the article. I was addressing the DU'er that stomped out of Taco Bell becuase they expected payed employees to work. If you were talking to someone else, sorry!

[liberalhistorian]

73. I think the Taco Bell poster was

trying to make the point that management there didn't seem to consider that the workers were human beings and not just robots. I don't think he/she made any reference at all to not expecting paid employees to work. I've worked in enough retail and fast food jobs to know that, generally speaking (certainly not all of the time, but generally) the workers are usually treated like shit and made to feel like criminals if they actually dare to have a life outside of their job. Especially if they're parents or if they're caring for relatives or sick children/spouses.

Even the younger, unmarried and childless workers were made to feel like crud and often docked or written up if they had a family emergency such as a death or sudden illness in the immediate family, things like that.

I don't think any of us here condone irresponsible, unreliable and/or deadbeat employees, far from it. But we do expect employees to be treated like they're human beings and not robots.

[enough already]

14. Call me old fashioned....

....but I was raised to show up to work on time. I'm no fan of Wal-mart, but come on.

[Skittles]

22. I absolutely agree

BUT there are ways for management to enforce rules without DEMORALIZING ALL WORKERS. Get it? HOW about a novel idea like DEALING DIRECTLY WITH THE ABUSERS and no one needs a g.d. DEMERITS system to know who THEY are

[enough already]

25. You can't deal with the abusers unless you have a clear, documented policy

If you don't, you'll have lawyers lined up at your door. Again, screw walmart in general, but something like this isn't going to demoralize the vast majority of the people doing the right thing.

[liberalhistorian]

28. I"m sorry, but that's bullshit. The vast majority of times

that people are late or absent it's due to illness/accident, family emergency, car problems, etc., it has NOTHING to do with "doing the right thing." Policies like this lump everyone in with just the few abusers, and the stress is horrendous. You worry about everthing, even having to pick up a sick child at school, or becoming suddenly ill. These things happen to EVERYONE and are generally beyond our control. You are made to feel like a criminal for tending to family or health needs, when no damned job is EVER more important than your family or your health.

And what about if they're sick for more than three days, having to apply for FMLA, which is UNPAID, mind you? What, they're supposed to come in if they have the flu or bad cold and jeopardize everyone else? I don't think so. The problem is, that the previous policy allowed cases of absence or tardiness to be decided on a case-by-case basis, which is the way it should be, instead of the automatized drones they're now going to use.

And as for the bullshit about "lawyers at their door", as a paralegal, I've seen FAR more employers abuse employees than the other way around; that's a RW scare tactic and bullshit talking point.

[superconnected]

31. I take it you've never communted before.

the vast majority people are late everywhere I've worked because of traffic. I dont know any that would claim it was their kids. Ferrys break down, commuter busses run late, some never come, the freeway is often unpredictable - I usually take 15mins to get to work but today it was an hour and 10 mins. Accidents on I5 and 405. Everyone else in the office was far later than I as I live close enough to arrive first. Many of them sat through 2.5 hour greuling commutes. I did that at my last job on especially bad days. But most of the time that job only took 1/2 an hour to get to. The thing is the work understood. Everyone is late when shit happens.

The wallmart people have had the human element removed. The computer won't give them a break for why they were late. 7 lates they're fired.

Gotta love that walmart no longer recognizes snow storms as a reason to be late. Someone who doesn't have a human view of things, but an everyone should be computers, view, may be happy with that.

[enough already]

55. My apologies, I got confused

I assumed we were talking about work. You wanted to talk about everything but work. My bad.

[liberalhistorian]

56. WTF? I WAS talking about "work", everything I said

directly involved work and attendance/tardiness policies. You just expect everyone to be robots instead of human beings who have things happen to them beyond their control, that's all. And if you consider any damned job to be more important than your family and your/their health and safety, well, then, that's certainly to be pitied. Work is never, ever more important than family and health, I don't care WHAT job it is. And those who generally ARE responsible and reliable, but who have family and/or health emergencies occasionally, should NOT be lumped in with the irresponsible deadbeats who waltz into work whenever they feel like it, as this policy is doing.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

103. Worst. Non. Sequitur. Ever.

Or is it a straw man? Hm, I think it's both.

[Skittles]

78. oh horseshit

I've worked for over 30 years and never had a company implement this kind of crap to deal with people who are chronically late. And there's a big difference between an asshole who just doesn't care about being on time and the single working parent who struggles daily with their schedule.

[Pithlet]

15. Just another reason to add to the pile of reasons

why I refuse to shop there. I'm so glad I live in an area where there are plenty of other options.

[Scout]

17. I've never worked anywhere that DIDN'T have some kind of attendance policy...

for christ's sake people, what is the big fucking deal?

Is it not standard practice to call in to work if you are going to be absent or tardy, and you know about it in advance?

I'm no fan of WalMart, and I don't shop there, but there is nothing wrong with attendance policies and the "progressive discipline" that goes along with them.

Some of the posters in this thread must lead very sheltered work lives.

[okoboji]

18. yes....

every place I have worked has had an attendance policy.

I've worked for Wal-Mart and then transfered to Sam's Club. The attendance policy is actually very fair. One thing that is not mentioned, is that any day missed or even a "tardy" - gets thrown out after six months. I don't know of too many places that do that.

[Pithlet]

19. I've worked some pretty crappy jobs.

They all had attendance policies. But with every single one of them I could report directly to my boss, and not some automated phone line if something came up and I couldn't make it to work. That boss could use his/her discretion in implementing disciplinary measures, and could take special circumstances into account. I guess I am sheltered in that I didn't have children when I worked those jobs, I was young and had no health issues, and I drove pretty reliable cars for the most part. I hardly ever missed work. The outrage isn't over the fact that they have an attendance policy. They already had one that should have been more than sufficient. It's the new, more rigid implementation that is outrageous. Single parents in particular will be hit really hard with the new system.

ETA that not a single one of them wrote me up for being late on a snowy day. Nor did I write someone up for that when I was a manager. Yeah, employees who were normally very punctual would sometimes come in late when it snowed, and this was on the east coast where snow is not uncommon. Big deal. I can't imagine writing employees up for that here in Memphis, where the entire city has two snowplows.

[bperci108]

21. It was in the news a few months back...

...that Wal-Mart is looking to unload all of it's older "associates" because they aren't as "reliable" as young, healthy, childless people.

"Lowering labor costs" was the given reason.

As if those greedy scum needed just a little more!

I honestly believe that this endless materialism, mindless consumerism and boundless greed are going to be the death of this nation.

:(

[enough already]

61. What's wrong with the automated line?

Do you want some stupid kid taking a message that you're going to be sick or late and forget to give it to the boss if she/he isn't around? Who would you blame then?

[Pithlet]

63. How about talking directly to my boss, instead?

So he/she can determine whether the absence was discipline worthy? If the message gets forgotten, it's not like I'm never going to see my boss again. I somehow managed all those years, even as a manager myself. I would have absolutely hated something like that as a manager.

[liberalhistorian]

36. The "big fucking deal" is that they've

removed the human element from it and now tardiness and absence counts against you no matter WHAT the reason, including family emergency, illness, a sick child or spouse, an uncooperative automobile, a nasty commmute, a death in the family, etc., etc. It doesn't matter what the reason is, it counts against you; get enough sick kids or family emergencies or illnesses, and you're fired, too bad, so sad. In other words, it turns people into robots. While tardiness and absences used to be dealt with on a case-by-case basis, as it should be, now it's just an automated robotic system that doesn't give a damn WHAT the reason is. Do you have ANY idea of the kind of stress that causes even the most responsible employees?

Things happen in people's lives, many times beyond their control, and losing their job or getting a "demerit" (what the hell is this, junior high?) should be the least of their worries when it does. While younger, childless workers may not be impacted much, this will severely impact single parents and older workers, among others. And that's criminal, frankly, it's wage slavery. If Wally World wants robots, then let them hire robots and not humans. At this point in my life, I have absolutely zero tolerance or patience for employers who put their job ahead of everything else, even to the detriment of employees' health and families. No damned job is more important than your family or your health.

I've tried to avoid shopping and WallyLand for all the usual reasons and more, but from this day on I will NEVER EVER shop there again; they will never get another penny out of me.

[Scout]

43. No, it's not that big a deal. I've had things happen in my life, and yes

i've been late to work occasionally. And i got a demerit! A verbal warning on the first occurrence, and then if you continue to be tardy the warnings progress...

You can't just let discipline be entirely at a manager's discretion, because different managers will let one person off the hook where another person is punished because their manager is following the rules whereas the other one wasn't. I've SEEN managers who won't discipline an employee they "like" but do discipline another employee for the same offense. That's not fair.

If you live where it snows, you get up 15 minutes early in the morning in case of bad weather. The companies i've worked at will excuse ALL tardies on a "blizzard day" but they do not leave it up to individual managers to make that decision on a day-to-day basis.

I've lived with attendance policies, and demerits/warnings all of my work life ... i've seen people who "play the system" by not caring about tardies/demerits UNTIL they get to the point that they will be fired next time, and guess what? They are strangely, miraculously able to be on time long enough for the demerits to clear from their record. Then they start all over again.

[liberalhistorian]

46. Blahblahblahblahblahblahblah-

go ahead and spout off all the usual management bullshit; you haven't addressed a single point of mine. Yes, I, too, have seen my share of employee abuse. But they usually didn't last too long because they finally went too far. And guess what? Employer abuse is far more common, believe me.

Again, what about health, family or transportation emergencies? Why should people worry about a fucking "write-up" when these things happen? There should be a differentiation between those who are careless, irresponsible and unreliable just because they feel like it, and those who need to pick up/stay home with a sick child, or have a death or serious illness in the family, etc., etc. THAT is why it should be decided on a case-by-case basis, instead of just lumping EVERYONE in with the deadbeats and making EVERYONE stressed and feeling like criminals because they have sick children, or parents who die, or illnesses, etc., etc. These things happen, whether the employer likes it or not, and if they don't, tough shit; a person's family and health are far more important than any damn job.

I simply cannot emphasize enough that NO JOB is more important than your family and your/their health and safety. NO JOB. No matter the whining and weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth and jumping up and down from ice-veined managers who, when they, themselves, have an emergency, extend to themselves the courtesy and privileges that they refuse to give to their employees.

[Scout]

69. you're a real piece of work, aren't you? i'm not wasting any more time on you n/t

[liberalhistorian]

90. Oh, and why am I a "piece of work? Because I expect

employers to treat employees as human beings and not robots, and with at least a tiny bit of respect and consideration? Oh, horrors, perish the thought!

I note that you did not address one single issue I brought up in my post. I guess that speaks volumes about where you're really coming from.

[enough already]

59. How dare you suggest that people act responsibly

I mean, if there's traffic, how can you reasonably expect people to leave earlier for work?

[liberalhistorian]

68. Actually, most people with horrendous

commutes usually DO leave pretty early, especially in winter. But even then, things will sometimes happen beyond their control to make them late. Accidents, slow-moving traffic, disabled vehicles in the middle of the highway, etc., etc., happen all the time. I agree that people need to be responsible and leave as early as possible, and there are irresponsible deadbeats who don't and who have no intention of doing so, but that's not the case with the vast majority of commuters. And if the weather is really horrendous and icy and snowy and dangerous, I am NOT going to kill or injure myself trying to get to a damned job, it ain't worth it.

[fasttense]

23. Wal-Mart seems to have a tardiness problem.

Perhaps if they paid their employees a living wage then those employees might be more concerned about keeping their jobs and showing up to work on time. When you can get all the crappy jobs in the world you want, why worry about losing a crappy job? If they get fired by Wal-Mart for being late all the time, I'm sure they can make the same money cleaning hotel rooms or serving up fries.

[Infinite Hope]

26. Demerit = writeup. It takes a lot of tardies and more than 10 mins...

to get fired. Don't judge before you know.

[superconnected]

32. 7 tardies. Everyone at my job would be fired in one month.

they all commute.

[Infinite Hope]

33. Right...

All jobs have policies. To be honest, I worked at Wal-Mart during HS and college (in the summers) and Wal-Mart's policy is actually very lax. Some people were tardy and simply didn't show up 7-10 times before even preliminary action was taken. Their policy on paper doesn't necessarily match their actions, especially if the employee is a good one when they show up most of the time. Even if they enforced that policy, there's no reason an employer can't enforce that. If they can't be there within 10 minutes of their scheduled time, that's a personal issue. Yes, commutes cause problems (and they make exceptions for true communte problems) but a person can also plan to be to work 15 minutes early in order to ensure they are punctual. Most places are far more strict than Wal-Mart.

[superconnected]

39. Uh maybe you should read the artical and what they changed to.

[superconnected]

42. plan to be at work 15 minutes early..?

"Yes, commutes cause problems (and they make exceptions for true communte problems) but a person can also plan to be to work 15 minutes early in order to ensure they are punctual. Most places are far more strict than Wal-Mart."

You have clearly never commuted befored. A bad commute will have an increase of 2 hours to the destination, some times longer. This is typical for commuters going 30 miles on either coast of the United states in many urban areas. This morning on 405 was an increase of 1 hour from normal commute times. The people going more than thirty miles got 2-2.5 hours.

I wouldn't consider a job that varies by 15 mintues really a commuter job. Commuter jobs have all but one lane on the freeway blocked sometimes, not often but often enough. Depends on the accident.

15 minutes makes no differnence to people who even get on commuter busses. I was often an hour late because traffic was stopped on the freeway, when I took the bus instead of drove. (I quit commuter bussing because my car was stolen at a park n ride). Typical story. My bf's truck got stolen from one too and so did an ex coworkers.And thrown in 4 grins, this new job I started 2 weeks ago - 4 car thefts from the parking lot so far... Good thing their wive don't demerit for coming home late.

[Infinite Hope]

44. I clearly have commuted before...

and leaving an extra 15 minutes early can get you there right on time given some delays.

Also keep in mind this is WALMART we're talking about. People aren't commuting 45 miles to WALMART to work. The vast majority of the time probably less than a third of that. 15 minutes in most cases is increasing the travel time by 33-50%.

[superconnected]

47. True, they'd likely live close to appy for that job.

[enough already]

62. An outrageous concept, for sure

I mean, showing up to work 15 minutes early and actually WORKING at your start time might show some initiative and lead to promotion opportunities. Why would anyone even THINK of doing this?

[liberalhistorian]

66. Oh, stop it, already! I think we've already pretty much agreed

that irresponsible deadbeats exist in the workplace and that they should be disciplined accordingly. But this policy lumps the responsible and reliable in with the deadbeats and makes no allowances for things that happen to even the most responsible, hard-working employees. When I had a job that was a little more than fifty miles away, I always left around two hours early, even more in the winter, because I had a very traffic-heavy, nightmare commute. Even then, there were many times when things happened with traffic that still made me late. It didn't matter that I was responsible and on time the rest of the time, one slip even a couple of times a year and a HUGE deal was made out of it, as if the Holy and Sacred workplace would die if I weren't at my desk every single minute.

And the times when my son became ill at school or had a medical emergency, God forbid I actually try to be a mother to him, and God forbid I ever become ill or injured myself. No one here is giving a pass to irresponsible deadbeats, but it's totally unfair to lump everyone else in with them. And whoever thinks that doing everything right in a job and even extra will lead to promotions or good reviews has another think coming; it's all a matter of who the management likes and who the "favored ones" are. And those aren't necessarily the ones who do the best, most responsible job, either.

[Porcupine]

67. Try plan to leave about ONE HOUR early. To catch your bus.

While your kids get left at home alone. WalMart doesnt' pay it's employees enough to purchase and maintain cars in any reasonable fashion. If they are driving, earning that wage, they are driving a clunker. If they are taking a bus to work in many areas guaranteeing arriving on time may mean catching the bus before the bus that would just get you there. That could mean an extra hour to an hour and a half in the morning. That would just be impossible for some parents as it could mean leaving kids alone for 2-3 hours before school.

This is what our shitty social welfare policies in the US get us. Kids that wake up alone, make their own breakfast, get themselves to school and come home to an empty house......in first grade. Thanks WalMart and F#@K YOU!! to all the management types who defend their policies.

[liberalhistorian]

71. Yes, and then you'll have social services up your ass

because of it and it won't matter that you're trying to be responsible and hard-working, that won't be enough for them. You can't win for losing.

[MockSwede]

77. Dead time

Yep, get to work 15 minutes early and then they don't want you to start work. So sit on your hands and waste time for another 15 minutes. BUT, they're ALWAYS happy to ask you to stay LATE, without any thought that YOU might have SOMEWHERE ELSE you need to be and be THERE 'on time' too!

[Odin2005]

34. The beatings will continue untill morale improves...

Lets call this what this is people, it's CORPORATE SERFDOM.

[KansDem]

35. My take on bad weather and getting to work...

Several years ago I had a part-time job (waiting for the real thing to come along). One winter day we had a terrible ice storm--one of the worse on record. Well anyway, I go out to my car, scrap and chip it clean (about 20 minutes) and start off to work. The city hadn't salted the main road I needed to get to work and it was like a plate of glass; everybody was driving about 2 miles an hour to avoid slipping off the roadway. I merge onto the roadway and realize I would be late for work so I try to exit onto side streets for an alternate route to work. In doing so, I slid off the road onto a side road and slid right into the curb, damaging my right front rim. Deciding "enough is enough," I drive back home and call in "sick." I was suppose to make $60 that day, but didn't since I had no benefits ("sick" meant I wouldn't be in and wouldn't be paid since I didn't have "sick leave"). The new rim cost me $80. The long and the short of it is; I could have just stayed home and lost $60 instead of trying to drive to work and losing $80.

I really feel for those who don't have some kind of safety net for these kinds of days. For many, there is no choice but to attempt it--staying home is not an option. But from now on, if I don't feel comfortable about the weather, I stay put and the "Protestant work ethic" be damned!

[liberalhistorian]

38. As I've said elsewhere in this thread,

NO damned job is more important than your family and your/their health and safety. NO JOB. The world will NOT end for the employer if you are not at your job every single minute.

I've worked for employers that actually got angry when you were in an accident on the way to work, in bad weather, and couldn't have cared less if you were injured or how bad, etc. That is criminal, frankly.

[superconnected]

41. Excellent post!

[Infinite Hope]

45. They've done this before...

There are uncountable businesses and workplace environments that have much more strict policies.

It's been policy at Wal-Mart before where one no-show gets you written up. 3 of those get you fired. It was never forced except against employees who didn't do anything but stand around once they got there. I knew of several people who worked hard when they were there and literally had 10-12 no-shows before they were fired even while that policy was in place.

The "policy change" this time is just getting more attention. They aren't going to get rid of good employees until it crosses the point of no return. Store Managers have the ability to lobby the District Managers to overturn firings and they've done it before many times and will continue to do so for good employees.

For those who have no-shows and never lift a finger when they get there, that's the price of terrible work ethic.

[greccogirl]

48. Almost EVERY

business does this. This is news? I worked for a company for 24 years that had the same attendance policy - three lates without a good excuse and you were given a "write up". Too many of those, and you could lose your job. I fail to see the surprise in this?

[liberalhistorian]

52. The key words being "without a good excuse";

they've now changed the policy to ANY tardiness or absence at all, regardless of reason, will count against you. This lumps those with illnesses of themselves or a child/spouse, family emergencies or deaths, medical or personal emergencies, car problems, etc., in with the irresponsible deadbeats. THAT is the problem. If they want robots for employees, let them hire robots instead of human beings, who will have things happen to them beyond their control and who shouldn't have to worry about losing their jobs because of it. NO DAMN JOB IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN YOUR FAMILY AND YOUR/THEIR HEALTH AND SAFETY. NO JOB WHATSOEVER.

[Pithlet]

58. And you called some automated line

Rather than directly to your boss? Every time?

Don't think for a minute that those of us who see this for what it is are clueless morons who've never worked a job in our life. Every job I worked at had some sort of formal attendance policy. And there were times when I was late or absent for various reasons. And never once was I written up, because I was a good employee, and my boss knew writing me up for an absence or tardy that I had no control over would be ludicrous. Under a policy like Wal-Marts, their hands would have been tied. Certainly not a morale booster for anyone directly involved. They already had an attendance policy. It wasn't weeding out the employees who were long term, parents, or had physical problems fast enough.

[bullwinkle428]

57. When I USED TO shop there, I can certainly recall that management

didn't have any problem with allowing customers to stand in checkout lines, waiting for ridiculously long periods of time because they refused to hire enough/provide sufficient numbers of cashiers. I guess they don't want to have to wait themselves, apparently.

[Yavin4]

60. This Is Nothing New. This is Why Laborers Formed Unions

Nit picky rules like these were among the major reasons why people formed labor unions.

[cap]

64. yup... at some point people will wise up

and unionize at walmart.

[Yavin4]

65. Companies like WalMart Would Abuse These Rules

to deny pay or harrass workers or arbitrarily fire people. Unions are the only protection that workers have. Without them, you're on your own.

[MockSwede]

75. Widespread

Done at local hospital in Bangor, Maine, too.....

[Nikia]

80. My work place is much more strict

In the first three months of employment, if we punched in later than five minutes EARLY more than three times, we would have gotten fired. After that, more than five times late by this definition earns termination.

[liberalhistorian]

91. Now, that's interesting; I've never heard

of punishing workers who punch in EARLY! Although, I did have a boss once who probably wishes she would have thought of that since she spent her days thinking of ways to make our lives miserable and never let us forget it. I'm sure she would have enjoyed sanctions and punishments for such a stupid reason, too. She was far too young and inexperienced to be the manager of an entire department, anyway; we never did figure out just how she got and kept her job, even after horrendous turnover in our department.

[Rex]

81. One day we will use Disney Dollars at Wal-Mart.

"I will control the woooorrrllld!"

[FormerOstrich]

83. Actually, I think the issue really boils down

to archaic management practices and hierarchal control-mongers that are in power.

There hasn't been any significant changes to how corporations "manage" their resources in decades.

While punctuality is important in some jobs it's not in a lot of other jobs. I noticed several posts which mentioned commuting. We live in a world that should be working on energy conservation and reducing pollution. Meanwhile our Corporate masters force a majority out on the freeways, five times a week, twice a day, to sit bumper and bumper and travel 2 mph in 12 lanes of traffic.

In the sea of cars, how many people are performing tasks which really require they be on-site at 8:00 am or 9:00 am sharp? There are several posters that made it known they felt you should just leave early to ensure punctuality. Unfortunately, that's the mind set. They probably are rabid anti-smokers that claim others smoking is going to kill them but have no qualms at expecting people to go sit on a freeway and emit emissions.

The Corporate yes men don't seem to be capable of working toward improving things because they are too scared they might lose control. Setting up satellite offices, virtual offices, telecommuting, and many other innovative alternatives just aren't given a real chance because of the mind set (and if you don't think there isn't a mind set just read this thread).

Anytime I see the lowest person on the totem pole bearing the brunt of "what is wrong" I really want to scream. Large Corporations piss away much more than whatever the perceived loss of 10 minute tardies of all their employees combined. In most places the loss of productivity of absences is less than the cost of the programs to "manage" it. And to those that mentioned treating workers like robots is a good thing because otherwise managers would play favorites....well then I think it makes more sense to look at the performance of the manager and fire them than "punish" the lowest men on the totem pole.

It's all about power over others.

[Infinite Hope]

86. That's interesting...

I've often thought employers who need not be open at a specific time delay their start time by an hour or two so that traffic is staggered significantly. Having 33-50% of traffic delayed an hour or two would reduce congestion and traffic tremendously.

But the real solution is using rail lines in the metro. It's far cheaper, faster, more dependable, and more convenient. It never looks as good from your own vehicle, but once you start using it, you won't want to go back.

[FormerOstrich]

87. I couldn't agree more about rail....

I love BART. I wish every metro area had rail but they don't and I doubt some ever do.

I live in the valley of the sun (Phoenix). We define sprawl. It's terrible and public transportation isn't even a viable option in a lot of cases.

Thanks for your reply. I have been on the soap box for many years and nothing changes except the problems/issues and they are growing exponentially. The hierarchal manger control freaks aren't going to budge.

:patriot:

[liberalhistorian]

89. What truly amazes me is that there are still far

too many employers that just don't realize how demoralizing, stressful, and ultimately unproductive and expensive such draconian policies really are. The places I've worked that have been like that have always had lower morale, lower productivity and very high turnover; turnover is especially expensive and time-consuming for employers due to the costs of recruiting and training replacements. Everyone is worried about everything, whether one little slipup is gonna be the end of their jobs, even things they can't control, and you just can't have a productive workplace with that kind of fear, not to mention high turnover.

The companies that actually treat their employees like human beings and not robots, OTOH, usually have higher morale, higher productivity, and far less turnover, which all makes for a much better workplace for both the employer and employees. I just don't understand why more of them don't understand that. It doesn't mean that you let the irresponsible deadbeats off the hook, far from it. You deal with them accordingly, without lumping everyone else in with them.

And, again, the world will not end if you are not at your desk at the cube farm every single minute of every single day, despite their Chicken Little protestations. And if the weather, say, is particularly bad, they have no right to expect people to take a chance on killing or injuring themselves just to come in and push their stupid paper all day, it just isn't worth your life.

[The Animator]

84. Don't Even Get me Started on the Universal Studios FL attendace policy...

[Hekate]

88. My dad worked for Lockheed 44 years; they had something called a "boom sheet"

Three of those in your file and you could be fired for cause. He was caught dozing at his desk once and got one (I think most of his early work life was spent on his feet, as he was an aircraft inspector). In 44 years he had two in his file -- my mom was a chronic worrier and this drove her crazy to think about. It was like the Sword of Damocles to her.

I was a Labor Relations secretary at one of the University of California campuses. What I learned is that rules like these are used everywhere, even in environments you would think are more humane. Individual supervisors may have considerable latitude in how they record and enforce them, but key to the employer's ability to get rid of a nonproductive employee is recording infractions. Chronic lateness could be used as the reason. The administrator of a department I was promoted into told me she observed every employee's arrival time, and if someone was late she would drop a note in their file, which was kept in her desk drawer. She told me it was my responsibility as a supervisor to do the same.

Lateness was always a problem for me -- in those days I was supporting two small children alone, and the continual round of getting them up and to preschool before work was harrowing. It was hard for me to understand the point of those minutes, when I was in fact a very productive employee. I finally got it that they pay you for your time, above all. The employer owns that time.

At some point after I remarried I moved to part-time work and was much happier. I held a series of interesting 20-hour a week jobs with a lot of independence and flex-time, and would typically work 30 hours (for which I got paid), and whoever I worked for thought it was a pretty good deal -- after all, I was a very productive employee. But I knew that if I ever accepted their offer of a 40 hour a week job and started showing up a few minutes after 8:00 and staying after 5:00, there would be trouble. Screw it. I was fortunate enough to be able to not have to do that. For a reduced salary, I owned my own time.

Labor Relations taught me a lot about the institution's point of view. I don't necessarily agree with all of it, but they have the money and the power. At least I didn't have to punch a time clock at my various UC jobs, like I did when I was a teenage sales clerk and pineapple canner.

I'm a strong believer in unions, but for the most part they seem to be on their way out in America, which is sad for the millions of people who could benefit from collective bargaining. Wal-Mart employees could use a good union, for sure. I read "Nickel and Dimed" and that place sounds like a really crappy place to work. I would have to be pretty desperate to apply at Wal-Mart, so their employees have a lot of sympathy from me.

Hekate

[MUSTANG_2004]

95. Interesting post. n/t

[DawgHouse]

93. In defense of the automated line....

Please don't flame me but I can relate a story about this. My son's girlfriend works for Cingular and they have this same policy. She recently had an emergency and was unable to report to work so she called the 800 number and put in her confirmation code, pretty much as described in other posts.

When she had a review at work, she found out that she had been given a "point" for not reporting in and being a "no show" one day. Had it not been for the automated line, there would have been no record of her calling in. When they checked their records, she was able to prove that she did follow the policy and they removed the "point" from her record.

I have never had to personally call an 800 number to report tardiness or absence but in this case, my son's girlfriend was glad for a record of her phone call.

[Zynx]

94. Having worked in retail for a long time, I can say that chronic lateness

is inexcusable. People know when they work and should build their schedules around it. I was only late once in two years and that was because there was two feet of snow in front of my driveway thanks to the snow plow fucking me over.

[MUSTANG_2004]

96. Correct,

When I worked in a service job, people who were late were especially a problem for their co-workers, who either had to scramble to do their own job and cover for someone who is late or stay after their shift until the person showed up to relieve them.

I've never lived in a snowy climate, but would assume that bad weather is just something you factor in to your travel time.

There are several reasons why we avoid Wal-Mart, but their requiring their employees to show up on time isn't one of them.

[liberalhistorian]

97. Again, I think we can agree that people do need

to be responsible and reliable and not just waltz into work whenever they feel like it without any consequences and that there are, indeed, irresponsible deadbeats who don't care if they're always late or absent and the affect on their co-workers. Those people should be dealt with accordingly, and I certainly shed no tears for them if they lose their jobs or have "demerits", "points", what have you, hanging over their heads.

But what this policy does is lump those idiots in with those who ARE responsible and reliable but who may have something happen beyond their control. Picking up a sick child, a sudden illness of yourself or a child/spouse, a medical or family emergency, etc.; these things WILL happen to even responsible and reliable people and no job should take precedence over it. I've become ill at times thanks to co-workers who've come to work ill themselves because they didn't want to be disciplined or whatever for being absent, that is unfair to not just the ill worker but to his or her co-workers as well. And the stupidest thing in the world is disciplining workers for being ill and off work for several days, or for having an ill child/spouse, or another family/medical emergency.

Believe me, that DOES happen, I've seen it regarding co-workers, even with deaths of parents or other immediate family, and it's happened to me. Never mind that the worker may be responsible, reliable and hard-working. See, THAT is the problem with the one-size-fits-all attendance/tardiness policies. Discipline should be decided on a case-by-case basis and, frankly, most managers/supervisors prefer it that way because it gives them the flexibility to deal with the irresponsible deadbeats while not punishing those reliable workers with legitimate reasons for tardiness/absence. That's why even some WallyLand managers are speaking out against this policy, it removes their flexibility and discretion.

When I once worked at a place with a draconian one-size-fits-all policy, they had high manager turnover largely due to their frustration and resentment over their hands being tied regarding this issue. While working for this company several years ago (no longer, thank God!), I once became suddenly and severely ill right at Christmas over what turned out to be a nasty, aggressive form of bacterial bronchitis that actually landed me in the hospital for a few days and then I was flat on my back for more than a week afterwards. I was told that I needed to get "approval" from the company's disability insurer, never mind that I was barely able to stand up and my doctor absolutely refused to clear me to return to work for almost two weeks. Then, not long after I finally returned to work, I fell on a friend's icy driveway and broke my wrist, which required surgery and recovery; again, I was off work for several days and, again, was told to get "approval" from the company's disability insurer.

I had normally been a reliable, responsible worker, despite the fact that I had a horrendous commute, especially in winter, but that didn't matter, oh, no siree. The day I returned to work following my wrist surgery, I was told I needed to sign one of their fucking "absence warnings", which warned of dire consequences, including termination, if I had any further absences within a six-month period, no matter the reason. At first, I refused to sign it, but was advised if I didn't, I'd be terminated then and there. Had I not been the single parent of a young son, I'd have told them then and there where they could shove their stupid, fucking job.

If that were to happen now, I most certainly would do so, because I will no longer work for such a company. Did they really think I was absent on purpose? Did they really think I enjoyed being severely ill and then dealing with the pain and hassle of a broken wrist and surgery? Much as I hated that stupid, useless, paper-pushing job, I would much rather have been there than dealing with the illness and broken wrist. I wasn't some deadbeat who'd just decided not to go into work because I didn't feel like it. The one-size-fits-all policies are always bad for employer as well as employees, due to low morale, low unproductivity and higher turnover. That workplace was plagued by all three of those and more.

[liberalhistorian]

99. Has anyone noticed the

very ironic google ads at the top of the page, for attendance and time tracking software, things like that? LOL!

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

101. This thread is like fishing in a barrel. So many anti-worker trolls, so little time. -nt

[Gormy Cuss]

104. This thread reminds me of an old Irish-American folk song

Drill Ye Tarriers

...And drill, ye tarriers, drill
Drill, ye tarriers, drill
For it's work all day for the sugar in your tay
Down beyond the railway
And drill, ye tarriers, drill
And blast and fire!

The foreman's name was John McCann
By gosh, he was a blamed mean man
Last week a premature blast went off
And a mile in the air went big Jim Goff.

And drill, ye tarriers, drill...

And when next payday it came around
Jim Goff a dollar short was found
When he asked, "What for?" came this reply
"You were docked for the time you were up in the sky."

And drill, ye tarriers, drill...