Bill Gates says West not supplying enough IT talent (Reuters)

[OhioChick]

Tue Nov 7, 2006 12:36pm ET

By James Kilner

MOSCOW (Reuters) - A shortage of information technology graduates from Western universities is leading companies to call on developing countries to meet research demand, Microsoft chairman Bill Gates said on Tuesday.

After the break-up of the Soviet Union, Russia's internationally renowned education system became a cheap talent pool for the West. Now dozens of Russian language Web sites offer computer programming jobs in the United States, alongside visa support and language training.

"Worldwide, a lot of the developed countries are not graduating as many IT students as they were in the past, which is kind of ironic as it does mean it does increase the opportunities," Gates said.

Russia loses around 700,000 people each year -- about 0.5 percent of its total population -- to emigration, disease and alcoholism.

http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2006-11-07T173600Z_01_L07799513_RTRUKOC_0_US-MICROSOFT-TALENT.xml&WTmodLoc=NewsHome-C1-topNews-12

Hey Bill.........the "talent" is still out there, but remember.....you got rid of them for the cheap-ass labor. Check Home Depot and Walmart.

:grr:

[mcscajun]

1. Send IT jobs overseas, put a chill down the spine of the IT community

and listen to us warn those younger than us (and their parents) NOT to pursue IT, and this is what happens. Predictable, Bill.

[lapfog_1]

24. I told my young nephew to find something else to do

I've spent 26 years as a software engineer. I have a relatively high paying job. I got lucky with the one startup that I founded. I've done well (but I don't have much to show for it... but that's another story). But I've told my nieces and nephew that they should find something, anything, else to do with their lives. biotech, health care, financial sector. Even setting up a landscaping business. Anything other than software. Bill Gates has only himself and his fellow CEOs to blame. Fuck you Bill.

[Pawel K]

To be perfectly honest he is correct

the programming coming out of this country is shit. Look at Diebold. The problem is in education, something we will improve once we control this broken government.

[BlueEyedSon]

Make no mistake, that Diebold code is shit ON PURPOSE

[Pawel K]

5. But come on, they wouldn't make it that obvious

if it really was deliberate. Any 12 year old that has messed with a hello world script can see how terrible their coding is.

[BlueEyedSon]

8. Legally no one is even supposed to SEE the code (trade secret or

something) so theoretically, it would not be obvious.....

[Pawel K]

12. but they did, every company knows damn well you can not keep code secret

Valve knew this when half life 2 was leaked, Microsoft knew this when their source codes were leaked, Diebold knew this when their code was leaked. On top of that reverse engineering lets you see how something is coded. Make no mistake, when a touch screen has to be recalibrated 2 times in a single day everyone out there knows you have shitty software. Diebold stands to lose a lot of money from this, there is absolutely no reason to make the code as shitty as they did, it was not deliberate.

[mrdmk]

15. The Diebold programing for voting machines comes from Canada

The ATM division is here in the U.S. That has discussed here at D.U. between the years of 2002 though 2005.


On edit: Reply to Bill Gates, "Horse shit". I left the IT business and went into the music business back in 1994 because I saw what is happening today back then. $3000, $4000 and $5000 one has to pay per certification after receiving a degree from a certified state college is a joke.

[nickinSTL]

6. that's not what I'm hearing from IT people

who have to work with Indian IT.

They have to go in and clean up after the mess.

This is not to say there isn't IT talent in India, but with fake resumes and interview stand-ins apparently the norm, it's apparently hard to find it.

Again, this is just from the IT people I know. It might not be indicative of the wider reality.

[OhioChick]

14. You're absolutely right, nickinSTL.

I've cleaned up many Indian IT messes. Of those companies, all said they won't go back to outsourcing the work.......lost too much $$$$.

[OhioChick]

10. I have to disagree

There are many damn good IT people here.......they just can't afford to work for $30K a year. What young kid is going to get into Computer Science when they see mom or dad struggling to find a job, not to mention paying off a brazillion dollars in student loans?

As for Diebold......Tell me that's not a Repuke fix? Seems their cash machines work A-OK.

[FormerDem06]

19. I will bet you money that developers in Hungary, Poland, or the Far East wrote some of the Diebold

Code. Unfortunately I have no way to prove it.

[Canuckistanian]

32. Diebold programming is not rocket science

A small engineering team could easily write code for a dedicated machine that only does one thing, which is basically counting and totaling.

Besides, using foreign workers means NOT being able to keep it a secret.

Why would foreign programmers (probably on contract) care about keeping things confidential when they know they can't be prosecuted for it?

[Pawel K]

21. Let me clarify slightly what I meant

I was in a rush when I wrote that so some people might have taken what I said wrong.

I have been working in IT for over 6 years. I manage most computer operations for a small company. I do not do a lot of programming professionally, its more of a personal hobby right now. The main reason it is just a hobby is because of what is happening today not only with outsourcing but also with education.

With my salary I can not afford to go to school full time, what I can afford is taking a couple classes at a community collage. I am not complaining about this, they have some awesome programs for what I'm looking into doing, they aren't as good as a university program but they will get you by. The problem is to get total certification and a degree it will take me 8-9 years on my current schedule.

Because of this most programmers in this country do not have a full degree in computer programming. My company hires 4 different programmers mostly working with C. The only guy with a full degree is from India, he is here on a temporary work visa until he can get his resident status in about a year.

On top of that to get certification it can cost up to $5K. So when Bill Gates says there isn't a pool of qualified programmers in this country he is correct. However, he is hardly adding to the solution. The policies of exporting programming jobs in this country, policies microsoft wants to establish are a huge part of the problem because if turns people away from paying 5K for that certification when they know they won't be able to get a job in the end anyway. We need to provide more affordable education and more grants to students.

[mrdmk]

26. I have news for you, Bill Gates is a Harvard dropout

In 1973, Bill started his studies at Harvard University. His first major was prelaw, but he spent most of his time in the computer center on campus. That summer, he and Paul got jobs at Honeywell and the two constantly talked about the prospects of starting a software development firm.

In 1974, Bill discovered that the Altair 8080 was being built to introduce computers to the public. Bill called the company that manufactured the device, MITS, and told them that he and Paul Allen had developed a version of the BASIC programming language that could be used on the Altair (which was a lie). The company showed interest and the two began actually writing the software, finishing it in about eight weeks. The two went to MITS and tested the software for the first time on a real Altair, observing that it worked perfectly. MITS bought the rights to the software for a tidy sum and Bill and Paul finally decided to start their own company.

Bill left Harvard in 1975 to start Microsoft with his friend Paul Allen. They believed strongly that computers had a place in every home and on every desk and worked to develop software that would allow computers to be used for many purposes. On January 1, 1979, the company moved to Seattle with its sixteen employees, where Bill thought it would be easier to find programmers to hire. Microsoft was very careful about who it hired, focusing on only the best college graduates with impeccable records.

http://www.freeinfosociety.com/site.php?postnum=97

[Pawel K]

33. Yeah, he grew up here in albuquerque where I live. There was a great movie about this

pirats of the silicon valley, I think it was called.

[Katzenjammer]

34. No, he's not correct. There are scads of out-of-work programmers

I'm one of them. I got sacked because of my age. People like Gates want 25-year-old single white boys who will work 60 hours a week for $20/hour flat rate.

If we closed the taps -- didn't import workerbees, didn't export jobs -- you can bet it would miraculously turn out that there's enough skill and talent in the USA after all.

[nebenaube]

48. ding, ding, ding we have a winner n/t

[BlueEyedSon]

2. Bill-ionaire meant "not enough cheap IT talent"

[leftyclimber]

3. This IT "talent" discovered several years ago

...that not speaking Hindi or wanting to move to India was a real barrier to getting a damn job.

Which is why I changed fields.

So stick that in your pipe and smoke it, Bill. :argh:

[Pawel K]

9. I'm going into networking for that reason

I want to get my MCSE certification. No matter how many companies ship out programming jobs to India they will always need a network to use when shipping those jobs.

[54anickel]

43. Yeah, but I was in that for over 15 years. The pay is nowhere near

what it was before I got laid off and they're looking to hire young new grads and certies that will work the long hours, do the shit work and do it for a lot less money than it's worth.

[NashVegas]

28. This IT Talent Discovered Years Ago

That having the knowledge to run circles around your not-IT talented supervisors only leads to frustration. I'm ready to have my GM outsource, and have to pay money everytime he wants one of his stupider ideas implemented.

[MercutioATC]

4. Look at the fastest-growing IT companies. They're all using Indian labor.

My Cognizant Technology Solutions (CTSH) stock is doing great...for a reason. IT companies using Indian labor are growing incredibly fast...we're talking annual 50%-60% earnings gains...

[Morereason]

41. Kind of like supporting walmart over Costco eh?

I watched as American Talent was replaced, told massive layoffs had to occur, at Intel. All the while the company was actually **growing**, in the US. Yes, growing in the US during layoff periods, that is right! By quietly bringing in workers from other countries. I have seen extremely unqualified Indian labor in high paying jobs. Know personally how Indian laborers work diligantly to get their friends hired despite not knowing the work, then spending evenings with them doing the work for them and turoring them.

The talk that US IT does not cut it is bullshit. Who exactly created the industry in the first place? Now that same talent are morans (intentional misspelling). Yeah right. You have been fooled into believing propaganda and placing your money against American interests.

What foreigners do have over Americans is they stick by each other, bolster their reputation, and help each other. Something our own sellout countrymen could learn from.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sin]

7. Lowe's also :)

was an IT guy before had all certs and what not in 1999 fresh out of school right when the bubble went boom
couldn't find work now I'm just starting to get it all back together. and looking for a field that pays well and will be stable + i actually like doing it but id settle for the first 2 now after seeing a late start.

[liberal N proud]

11. No wonder - When companies keep outsourcing IT Services

No one wants to get into a career that they know will disappear before their eyes.

Hell, our company outsource its IT services to Billy Gates who in turn outsourced it to another group who outsourced it further and our Help Desk is in India.

[bobbie]

13. That's clear propaganda so they can outsource jobs

I just moved from Seattle. Tech people are frantic for jobs. MS is so so vile.

[sentelle]

16. duh

Of course, with the way education in underfunded, and undersupplied with quality teachers, does anyone wonder why?

And what's old Billy Gates' resolution to this? Why did he move the Software Licensing division of Microsoft from Redmond (WA) to Nevada? Might it have to do with the fact that the earnings would not be taxed in NV? What would WA do with the money.... perhaps put it into edcation?

So here's the question? why is Bill Gates shitting where he eats?

[Whoa_Nelly]

17. Gates is full of it...

Let's review articles about US IT jobs being shipped overseas:
(Just a few articles found in a few minutes of an easy search)

From 2006
http://news.com.com/High-tech+jobs+recovery+Dont+believe+the+hype/2010-1022_3-6096730.html

http://informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=193100085

From 2005
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3618/is_200506/ai_n14683116


From 2003
http://money.cnn.com/2003/03/13/news/economy/jobs_offshore/

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/03/15/eveningnews/main606478.shtml

http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9584_22-5108947.html


From 2002
http://news.com.com/A+half-million+tech+jobs+lost+in+2002,+study+says/2100-1041_3-5108947.html

[OhioChick]

20. You're right.....

India may gain 10 million jobs from outsourcing
BLOOMBERG NEWS
10/07/2006
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/business/stories.nsf/0/0633826F2B1AB1AA86257200000AEF4E?OpenDocument



Nearly 1.5 Million Back-Office U.S. Jobs Seen Moving Abroad
Oct 27, 2006 09:27 AM
http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=193402615

[bamacrat]

18. Well duh, we are way too expensive.

[high density]

22. Gates is like a robot

He says this every 3 months to push for more H-1B visas. The fact is that people aren't going to invest the time and money in a technology education when corporate America is trashing those jobs in the USA left and right.

[OhioChick]

23. He got his wish.......

US visa appointment slots hiked to 30,000
October 19, 2006 15:11 IST

http://www.rediff.com/money/2006/oct/19visa.htm

US to set up consulate in Hyderabad by 2008
Hyderabad, Oct 18: The US will set up a consulate here in early 2008 as part of measures to speed up the processing of visa applications, a top American official said on Wednesday.

As of last week, about 40,000 visa applications were pending with US missions across the country and efforts are on to clear them as quickly as possible, US Consul General Peter G Kaestner told reporters here today.
http://www.zeenews.com/znnew/articles.asp?aid=330162&sid=REG

[Megahurtz]

30. UGH!

This makes me so mad and I am so sick of this shit and I wish that other Countries would
offer us incentives and Visas so that we could leave this Hell Hole. :grr:

Where are our offers of employment??? Where is our chance for a better life???

Fuck You Bill Gates and everyone just like you for ruining our "American Dream".:mad:

[high density]

31. Congress is working hard against the American worker

It upsets me quite a bit... I'm not sure what to do about it since many Democrats were very eager to raise the H-1B visa limits.

[treestar]

25. They'll still be waiting for years - what visas can they get them

The H-1B quota is used up quickly and the permanent resident quotas are starting to get behind - there are also limits per country, so the Indians will be getting blocked - makes sense there, the Russians are still able to fit within the quota.

But even if you can prove you need people, you can't have them if the quota is filled. We only take so many immigrants per year, if that hurts the economy, too bad, we apparently prefer that to foreigners on our pristine shores.

[Morereason]

42. Not true, they are now hiring them outside and bring them in

H1-B is only one way external labor is being brought in. Most companies, like Intel (where I worked), are hiring at their overseas locations, training, and then bringing them in as existing staff.

[Anus Retainus]

27. Since BillG never finished college...

He would be the perfect person to know how the process works :sarcasm:

[unschooler]

29. The IT talent they employ ain't cheap.

They're plenty well-paid. Save yours tears for the textile workers in the Marianas, not the software developers in Redmond or San Jose.

Gates is already able to hire an awfully high percentage of the "best and brightest" worldwide. Do you know lot of unemployed software developers?

Paying the employed ones more isn't going to increase the pool of technically capable graduates coming out of US universities.

[HockeyMom]

35. My daughter, her girlfriend, and former boyfriend

are just 3 casualties in the IT college major. My husband, outsourced twice, told all of them, "DON'T go into IT".

I have heard a couple of local college who have been BEGGING for IT majors. What is the point? Do you want to move to Bangalore?

[candice]

36. Undercut by H1B visa holders...companies have no incentive

to invest in education when they can import cheaper labor (or outsource, even cheaper). However, I'm finding that tech support calls to India are no support at all for the most part. I just don't bother and figure out the problem myself as far as possible. Then, when there's an option, such as real high-speed internet options in the heart of Silicon Valley where I live, I'll go with the company that has local support. Sending me to India for support equals company does not care (which is why I won't buy another Dell product). Thank Goodness we still have Apple.

Being told multiple times by different support personnel in India that all of California is off line when I just needed to have someone look at the phone connection into my house was so demoralizing. Took months to get any help, and that was possible only when I called to cancel.

[high density]

45. I recently had to call Microsoft

to reactivate Windows XP after replacing failed hardware in my computer... The first Indian I got couldn't activate the software for me and sent me to a different number. The person at that number didn't even try to do anything for me and instead put me on hold for ten minutes while he tried to connect me to another Indian. This third Indian finally had half of a clue and was able to give me the proper unlock code to activate the software. In summary, it took longer to get my Windows activation squared away then it did to install the new hardware! :mad:

[Anakin Skywalker]

37. Blah Blah Blah (Or to use their term "Yadda Yadda Yadda")

Same tired excuse every time. You bore me, Billy Boy!

[shanti]

38. BULL-SHIT, bill!

there's never been a "loss of talent". i see the results of outsourcing every damn day when i ride the light rail in sacramento. it only started about 3 or so years ago, but we have MANY MANY east indians headed downtown to work OUR JOBS! just as many are going east to intel too, in fact folsom is home to many east indians (and their wives - they work too).

this burns me up! :grr: :mad:

[sweetheart]

39. Wrong bill

You can't employ senior IT Talent, as it would offend your little dog pissing patch of
crap operating systems and bluescreen software. There is a concerted effort to outsource
all IT jobs that the workforce not be aware of how the computer systems that control them
function and work. What good is a harness if the horse knows how to unbuckle it.

[Jim Sagle]

40. Bill Gates can eat my shit.

[Rex]

44. Gates or should we call you Walt McBill?

Fuck you corporate bot. You wouldn't know talent if it spit in your face. The worlds richest loser.

[FormerOstrich]

47. I started in the IT business over 20 years ago....

I don't believe it's a matter of the American workers are better or worse than their Indian counterparts.

The problem is management (yes, people like you and you're "visionary" CEO buddies). In the 90s when there was a lot of money the mantra was just to throw money at the problems. When that didn't work it was the lazy american developers just off-shore. Now that doesn't work they'll beat up on the Universities for awhile. All the while not admitting the real problem.

Of course there are some bad programmers out there. Yes, there are a lot of egotistical jerks out there. Business has never understood the technology. They've never understood how to manage the resources. They've never understood even what they really wanted. Then they let marketing types put the pressure on.

While it has improved over the years, for the most part IT is a brutal, thankless job. However, let's not forget that for many years the entire industry was driven by "First to the market wins". Nothing else mattered. The really good technical people just learned to flow with it because the loved the technology, the money, and the ego boosts.

I think in the early 2000s the market probably needed some correction. Instead they raped us. The talent that provided what is actually out there today, usually sacrificing relationships and many other things in their lives were kicked to the curb so fast.