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Cerridwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-14-06 12:06 PM
Original message
S. Africa parliament OKs gay marriages
S. Africa parliament OKs gay marriages
Associated Press

CAPE TOWN, South Africa - The South African parliament on Tuesday approved new legislation recognizing gay marriages - a first for a continent where homosexuality is largely taboo.

The National Assembly passed the Civil Union Bill, worked out after months of heated public discussion, by a majority of 230 to 41 votes despite criticism from both traditionalists and gay activists and warnings that it might be unconsitutional. There were three abstentions.

The bill provides for the "voluntary union of two persons, which is solemnized and registered by either a marriage or civil union." It does not specify whether they are heterosexual or homosexual partnerships.

<snip>

"When we attained our democracy, we sought to distinguish ourselves from an unjust painful past, by declaring that never again shall it be that any South African will be discriminated against on the basis of color, creed culture and sex," Home Affairs Minister Nosiviwe Mapisa-Nqakula told the National Assembly.link to a bit more


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Caution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-14-06 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
1. OK so now we're behind South Africa in a civil rights issue. How pathetic
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YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-14-06 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Same thought crossed my mind
This is beyond sad. For a country that claims it values 'freedom' and 'individuality' this is beyond pathetic.
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YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-14-06 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Same thought crossed my mind
This is beyond sad. For a country that claims it values 'freedom' and 'individuality' this is beyond pathetic.
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DavidDvorkin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-14-06 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. That's an odd thing to say
This isn't Apartheid-era South Africa.
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Caution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-14-06 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. It isn't Apartheid-era SA anymore. For all of 15 years. They seem to be progressing
at a slightly faster rate in terms of civil rights than we are wouldn't you agree?

15 years after ending apartheid they are allowing gay marriage across the entire nation.

We are banning it in multiple states 140 years after ending slavery and 50 years after Brown V Board of Education.

I'd call that a pretty shocking disparity.

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DavidDvorkin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-14-06 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. I see what you mean. I misread your post.
From time to time, I encounter posts on DU by people who don't seem to realize that it isn't the old South Africa.

I certainly agree that, given the time spans involved, we should be far ahead of where we are now.
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Puglover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-15-06 07:06 AM
Response to Reply #1
25. I wouldn't be surprised
if the Congo passed gay marriage before we do. <sigh> Pathetic.
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Onlooker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-14-06 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
4. South Africa could be the future
As America continues its decline, countries like South Africa move forward. South Africa has a humane government that handled the dismantling of Apartheid with things like the Truth Commission rather than revenge and now is moving towards giving gays true equality. While South Africa has a long way to go, it has made for more progressive a relatively short time than we have made in the last 30 years. People who want freedom may someday soon look to South Africa, and not the United States or its allies.
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Xenotime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-14-06 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #4
13. It is the future.
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transeo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-14-06 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
5. OMG, now we're going to lose the 2008 election!
Edited on Tue Nov-14-06 12:43 PM by transeo
:sarcasm:

Sorry, I just had to. What would a gay marriage thread be without someone freaking out the upcoming election?
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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-14-06 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. THANK YOU!
:D That was the post I was trying to articulate! LOL
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-14-06 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
9. how Long untiL the pheLps cLan shows up?
or focus on the famiLy expands to overseas.
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MissMillie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-14-06 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Hi sniffa!
:hi:

How you been?
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-14-06 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. missmiLLie
:hi: :hi: :hug:

not too bad, not too bad. how have you been?
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pinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-14-06 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
14. Great quote here, setting gay equality in a larger, national context:
"When we attained our democracy, we sought to distinguish ourselves from an unjust painful past, by declaring that never again shall it be that any South African will be discriminated against on the basis of color, creed culture and sex," Home Affairs Minister Nosiviwe Mapisa-Nqakula told the National Assembly.
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Tight_rope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-15-06 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #14
27. Now that quote says it all....Standing by their constitution...To bad we don't!
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-14-06 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
15. The relevant provisions of the SA constitution are modeled on the Canadian
... Charter of Rights and Freedoms, Part I of the 1982 Canadian Constitution.

http://www.anc.org.za/ancdocs/history/mbeki/2003/tm1104.html

Reply by the President of South Africa, Thabo Mbeki, to the Toast by Prime Minister Jean Chretien, at the Museum of Civilisation, Gatineau, Ottawa.

November 4, 2003

... As our first decade of freedom in South Africa draws to a close, we take pride in the fact that we drew on the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms as we drafted our own Constitution and Bill of Rights.


Relevant bits of the Constitution of South Africa:
http://www.polity.org.za/html/govdocs/constitution/saconst.html?rebookmark=1

Equality

9. (1) Everyone is equal before the law and has the right to equal protection and benefit of the law.

(2) Equality includes the full and equal enjoyment of all rights and freedoms. To promote the achievement of equality, legislative and other measures designed to protect or advance persons, or categories of persons, disadvantaged by unfair discrimination may be taken.

(3) The state may not unfairly discriminate directly or indirectly against anyone on one or more grounds, including race, gender, sex, pregnancy, marital status, ethnic or social origin, colour, sexual orientation, age, disability, religion, conscience, belief, culture, language and birth.

(4) No person may unfairly discriminate directly or indirectly against anyone on one or more grounds in terms of subsection (3). National legislation must be enacted to prevent or prohibit unfair discrimination.

(5) Discrimination on one or more of the grounds listed in subsection (3) is unfair unless it is established that the discrimination is fair.

Limitation of rights

36. (1) The rights in the Bill of Rights may be limited only in terms of law of general application to the extent that the limitation is reasonable and justifiable in an open and democratic society based on human dignity, equality and freedom, taking into account all relevant factors, including ­

1. the nature of the right;
2. the importance of the purpose of the limitation;
3. the nature and extent of the limitation;
4. the relation between the limitation and its purpose; and
5. less restrictive means to achieve the purpose.

(2) Except as provided in subsection (1) or in any other provision of the Constitution, no law may limit any right entrenched in the Bill of Rights.

Corresponding bits of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms:
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/index.html
Guarantee of Rights and Freedoms

1. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.

Equality Rights

15. (1) Every individual is equal before and under the law and has the right to the equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination and, in particular, without discrimination based on race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability.

(2) Subsection (1) does not preclude any law, program or activity that has as its object the amelioration of conditions of disadvantaged individuals or groups including those that are disadvantaged because of race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability.

Obviously, modern rights instruments in various places have also drawn on the U.S. Bill of Rights, which itself drew on ... etc.

What most modern rights instruments have that the U.S. Bill of Rights doesn't have is equality guarantees. Canada's for instance, probibits unequal treatment by governments/laws and names certain specific prohibited grounds of discrimination in particular, but without limiting the prohibition to discrimination on those grounds; Canadian courts first held some years ago that sexual orientation was also a prohibited ground of discrimination by governments/laws. (It is also included in human rights codes that govern discrimination in the private sector by non-state actors.)

Where the U.S. guarantees equality before the law -- an aspect of procedural due process -- modern rights instruments guarantee equality under the law, i.e. substantive equality. The difference is illustrated in a Canadian case from several decades ago in which the courts held that as long as the legislation that discriminated against Indian women (versus Indian men) was applied equally to all Indian women, it was not illegal discrimination: Indian women were equal before the law, although not under it.


A speech by the then (Liberal) Minister of Justice in 1982 (my emphases):
http://www.canada-justice.ca/fr/news/sp/2002/doc_30379.html

... The final impact of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms that I am going to mention is on the law and legal systems of many other countries. In fact, the Canadian Charter has been a source of inspiration for many other democracies that have equipped themselves with instruments that protect fundamental rights and freedoms.

For example, New Zealand's Bill of Rights, which was adopted in 1990, was inspired by the constitutional guarantees entrenched in the Canadian Charter. This also applies to Supreme Court of Canada case law. Many of our highest court's decisions are frequently cited by the courts of numerous countries such as the United Kingdom, Ireland, New Zealand, South Africa, Sri Lanka, Uganda and Zimbabwe.

For instance in State v. Zuma (1995), a case from the Constitutional Court of South Africa, Justice Kentridge refers to Section 11(d) of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms <presumption of innocence, right to fair trial>, which bears a strong resemblance to the equivalent provision of their Constitution, and adopts some of the principles outlined by our Supreme Court.

Besides reflecting an international recognition of values shared by all nations, this emulation of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and the Supreme Court of Canada decisions promotes an increased awareness of Canada and our democratic traditions throughout the world. I am particularly proud of that.

The Supreme Court of Canada considers decisions from the constitutional courts of various countries in interpreting the Canadian constitution; it frequently refers to the U.S. Bill of Rights and constitutional jurisprudence, and cited a South African judge in a case in which it refused extradition of three people wanted for prosecution in the U.S. who were potentially subject to the death penalty, where no assurance that the death penalty would not be sought had been given (making it unconstitutional for Canada to extradite the accused persons):
http://scc.lexum.umontreal.ca/en/2001/2001scc7/2001scc7.html
In this respect, Canadian courts share the duty described by President Arthur Chaskalson of the Constitutional Court of South Africa in declaring unconstitutional the death penalty in that country: ...


It would be wonderful to see courts in the U.S. investigating and considering what courts elsewhere have decided on important human rights issues that come before them, and not to hear the right-wing whining about loss of sovereignty / USAmerican exceptionalism / blah-blah that is the too common response when judges in the U.S. do occasionally do that.

It would of course also be wonderful to see the people of the United States just embrace the concept of human equality that has been largely adopted by people in much of the rest of the world out here.

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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-14-06 02:57 PM
Response to Original message
16. "Anglicans split on gay marriage"
http://www.dispatch.co.za/2006/11/07/SouthAfrica/bish.html
... Last month it was reported in newspapers that Johannesburg-based Anglican priest, Jo Mdhlela had preached a sermon which espoused equal rights for gays and lesbians.

According to newspaper reports, this was met with puzzled frowns by many in his conservative African congregation.

But despite this opposition in the mostly black church near Johannesburg, Mdhlela said he hoped to persuade his flock that being Christian does not mean rejecting gays -- contrasting with most clergy on the continent, who believe homosexuality is sinful and un-African.

... Archbishop Desmond Tutu recently unleashed his anger on conservative Anglicans who want to uphold a ban on same sex marriages and block gays from entering the priesthood unless they remain celibate.


Certain African bishops in the Lambeth Conference (the worldwide Anglican communion, which includes the Episcopal Church in the US and the Anglican Church of Canada) are the nastiest most homophobic of the lot, and the biggest reason for the ongoing schism in the Anglican communion on this issue. Bishop Tutu seems to have given up on his efforts at diplomacy in this regard.

The US and Cdn churches have been placed on probation because of the ordination of gay/lesbian priests in the US and the practice of same-sex union blessings (predating same-sex marriage) in Canada.
http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=1594
10/30/2004

Conservative Anglican Archbishops in Africa have set a February deadline for the liberal American Church to "repent" for consecrating a homosexual bishop.

In a statement issued yesterday, the leaders of most of the continent's 20 provinces challenged liberal bishops to comply with the Windsor report, published 10 days ago to heal rifts over homosexuality.

... Their statement, issued after a meeting in Lagos, also said that the liberals must halt the blessing of same-sex "marriages" and rule out future consecrations of homosexuals.

Failure to do so, they warned, would indicate that the liberals "have chosen to 'walk alone' and follow another religion".

Some African provinces of the Anglican communion still refuse even to ordain women:
http://www3.sympatico.ca/ian.ritchie/AFRWOMEN.html
-- in South Africa, women may be bishops in the church.

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yellowcanine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-14-06 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
17. Wow. So much for the "Africans don't support gay rights" meme that
the fundies (Catholic, Anglican, and Protestant) would use to divide progressives.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-14-06 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. The term "Africans" encompasses hundreds of ethnic groups
and each has its own culture and traditions.

Obviously, some are uptight about homosexuality and others aren't.

A delegation from my church just returned from a visit to an Anglican "sister parish" in South Africa. They reported that there are still terrible problems there, but that the overall mood was hopeful and that South Africa was practically unique in having accomplished its revolution peacefully and without vengeance.
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yellowcanine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-14-06 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Well yes, it does point up the problem of stereotypes.
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FernBell Donating Member (233 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-14-06 07:52 PM
Response to Original message
20. k&r
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Up2Late Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-14-06 09:22 PM
Response to Original message
21. South African Parliament Approves Gay Marriages (NYTimes)
(Great quote in bold by Ms. Judge!)

South African Parliament Approves Gay Marriages


By SHARON LaFRANIERE
Published: November 14, 2006

JOHANNESBURG, Nov. 14 — South Africa’s Parliament overwhelmingly voted today to legalize same-sex marriages, making the nation the first in Africa and the fifth in the world to remove legal barriers to gay and lesbian unions, according to activists.

The legislature voted after the nation’s highest court ruled that South Africa’s marriages statutes violated the constitution’s guarantee of equal rights. The court gave the government a year to amend the legal definition of marriage. That deadline expires in two weeks.

Melanie Judge, program manager for OUT, a gay rights advocacy group, noted that the Netherlands, Belgium, Spain and Canada were the only other countries to allow same-sex marriages nationwide. In most African nations, she said, homosexuality is still treated as a crime. Some penalties are stiffer than those for rape or murder..

Ms. Judge credited South Africa’s liberal constitution with forcing change. “This has been a litmus test of our constitutional values,” she said in a telephone interview. “What does equality really mean? What does it look like? Equality does not exist on a sliding scale.”

(more at link) <http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/14/world/africa/14cnd-safrica.html?ex=1321160400&en=abd206da4fb1a12f&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss>
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DarkTirade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-15-06 03:06 AM
Response to Original message
22. Wait... they took for effing ever to catch up to the rest of the world
on the issue of race... but now they're sailing past us on marriage rights.
Go figure.
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BreweryYardRat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-15-06 03:26 AM
Response to Original message
23. Oh, that's pathetic.
Fucking SOUTH AFRICA is ahead of the US in civil rights? :(
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-15-06 06:13 AM
Response to Original message
24. I hope Keith, Jon, or Stephen bring this up tonight n/t
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Tight_rope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-15-06 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
26. And the US is busy trying to wine back the clock!
:spank:
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jpwhite Donating Member (178 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-15-06 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
28. if the fundamentalists are right...
Edited on Wed Nov-15-06 11:28 AM by jpwhite
Well, if the fundamentalists are right then South Africa will fall apart in 5 years.

I have a big wake up call for the fundamentalists......SOUTH AFRICA WILL BE JUST FINE. In fact, we should look at what happens to the divorce rate over the next five years. According to fundamentalists gay marriage will destroy marriage. Well, if the divorce rate drops over the next five years what will Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell say then?

The more countries that choose to stop discriminating against people who are gay the better it is for all of humanity.

James
jpwhite@okstatealumni.org



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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-15-06 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
29. a few comments on a few comments here
Quite a lot of people seem to be surprised, not to say outraged, that South Africa is moving ahead of the US on human rights issues. They seem to be forgetting something.

The old South Africa was a state in which a minority had acquired power and held onto power and used its power to oppress a majority. The majority ultimately prevailed: people (of all ethnicities) who did not believe in racial discrimination or any of the other oppressive policies of the old régime ousted it and established a new kind of state. That is the South Africa we are now looking at.

There is really no reason to be amazed that this new South Africa is making advances like this in human rights. The new South Africa has embraced the modern concept of human rights, something that the old South Africa was prevented from doing by the minority that controlled it. In that sense, this isn't really a "new" South Africa, it is the same old South Africa, no longer being prevented from being what it can be.

The report quoted in the opening post said (emphasis mine):
The National Assembly passed the Civil Union Bill, worked out after months of heated public discussion ...

South Africa is acting like a liberal democracy: it is engaging in public discourse about public policy, and making progress.

The new South African constitution contains this provision:
9. ... (3) The state may not unfairly discriminate directly or indirectly against anyone on one or more grounds, including race, gender, sex, pregnancy, marital status, ethnic or social origin, colour, sexual orientation, age, disability, religion, conscience, belief, culture, language and birth.

Many other national constitutions, and international rights instruments, and things like European Union rights instruments, contain similar provisions. The Constitution of the United States does not.

The process by which the SA Constitution was adopted is briefly described here:
http://www.polity.org.za/html/govdocs/constitution/saconst.html?rebookmark=1
This Constitution was drafted in terms of Chapter 5 of the interim Constitution (Act 200 of 1993) and was first adopted by the Constitutional Assembly on 8 May 1996. In terms of a judgement of the Constitutional Court, delivered on 6 September 1996, the text was referred back to the Constitutional Assembly for reconsideration. The text was accordingly amended to comply with the Constitutional Principles contained in Schedule 4 of the interim Constitution. It was signed into law on 10 December 1996.

The objective in this process was to ensure that the final Constitution is legitimate, credible and accepted by all South Africans.

To this extent, the process of drafting the Constitution involved many South Africans in the largest public participation programme ever carried out in South Africa. After nearly two years of intensive consultations, political parties represented in the Constitutional Assembly negotiated the formulations contained in this text, which are an integration of ideas from ordinary citizens, civil society and political parties represented in and outside of the Constitutional Assembly.

This Constitution therefore represents the collective wisdom of the South African people and has been arrived at by general agreement.

As I noted earlier, some provisions of that Constitution are modelled on the Charter of Rights and Freedoms in the Canadian constitution, which was also adopted after lengthy and broad public debate, in 1982. Some go farther, e.g.:
Health care, food, water and social security

27. (1) Everyone has the right to have access to ­
1. health care services, including reproductive health care;
2. sufficient food and water; and
3. social security, including, if they are unable to support themselves and their dependants, appropriate social assistance.

(2) The state must take reasonable legislative and other measures, within its available resources, to achieve the progressive realisation of each of these rights.

(3) No one may be refused emergency medical treatment.

This is an example of what some rights theorists call the "third generation of rights". The generations roughly equate to the words in the motto of the French revolution: liberty, equality, fraternity -- or what is called, today, solidarity.
http://www.stoessel.ch/hei/dip/human_rights_encyclopedia_britannica.htm

The US came out of the movement for liberty, with rights that are sometimes called "negative" -- rights that protect individuals against interference in their personal choices and punishment for exercising them: freedom of speech, association, etc.

In the second half of the 20th century, the right to equality became the battleground -- rights that protect individuals against unequal treatment and thus enable them to achieve some security for themselves by getting an education, working, housing themselves, feeding themselves. The civil rights movement in the US, the women's movement, the movement to achieve equal rights for gay men and lesbians, etc.

Now, the movement gathering momentum is the battle for human security: a healthy environment and sustainable development, clean water, health care, education, housing, peace.

The US's FDR hinted at this in his famous "four freedoms" speech:
http://www.feri.org/common/news/info_detail.cfm?QID=1982&ClientID=11005
On January 6, 1941, President Roosevelt proclaimed that four freedoms are essential to a flourishing democracy: freedom of speech and expression, freedom of worship, freedom from want, and freedom from fear.

Liberty rights alone did not achieve freedom from want and freedom from fear: there were still oppressors and exploiters. Equality rights allowed for progress to be made, but there is still exploitation and oppression. Freedom of choice and equal opportunity alone have not achieved freedom from want and freedom from fear for many people, everywhere.

The fact is that most of its peers have passed the US on the highway to human happiness, long since.

Equality rights are a fact of life in the rest of the liberal/social democracies in the world (by law and in widely accepted principle, if not always in practice), and solidarity rights at least have a foothold: the health care plans of Canada, Europe, Australia & NZ (and many more surprising places in the world), the social security networks (labour laws, provisions for child care and education, housing) in those countries, etc.

It should simply come as no surprise that a country like South Africa, which has stepped firmly into the modern current of human thought and development, should have passed the US on that highway too. The US, after the promise (and leadership) shown by the New Deal and the War on Poverty and the civil rights movement and the women's movement, has simply refused to open the door to the modern generations of rights -- equality rights, beyond the point reached some years ago, let alone solidarity rights.

The US has indeed innovated in some of those areas, and laid building blocks that others have used -- as have other countries (like the UK in the post-war era, with a social security network that few in the US today even know about). The thing is that the US has not only failed to keep building on its own foundations, it has resolutely refused to look outward and learn from what anyone else has been doing.

No one should be at all surprised that South Africa has taken this particular step before the US. The fact that it is surprising to so many USAmericans just goes to show how isolated people in the US are from the mainstream of human development these days, and how well insulated from the world at large they have been kept.


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