Accept defeat by Taliban, Pakistan tells Nato

[Roland99]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/11/29/wafghan29.xml

Senior Pakistani officials are urging Nato countries to accept the Taliban and work towards a new coalition government in Kabul that might exclude the Afghan president Hamid Karzai.

Pakistan's foreign minister, Khurshid Kasuri, has said in private briefings to foreign ministers of some Nato member states that the Taliban are winning the war in Afghanistan and Nato is bound to fail. He has advised against sending more troops.

Western ministers have been stunned. "Kasuri is basically asking Nato to surrender and to negotiate with the Taliban," said one Western official who met the minister recently.

The remarks were made on the eve of Nato's critical summit in Latvia. Lt Gen David Richards, the British general and Nato's force commander in Afghanistan, and the Dutch ambassador Daan Everts, its chief diplomat there, have spent five days in the Pakistani capital, Islamabad, urging the Pakistani military to do more to reign in the Taliban. But they have received mixed messages.

Sure makes all that money and death and destruction since Oct. 2001 worth it, eh?

[xchrom]

1. lol -- now that is surprising.

i don't think they'll do that -- but it is surprising.

[saigon68]

7. NO they'll listen to these 2 Idiots

[rpannier]

2. I'd have to oppose that idea

Based on the record of the Taliban when they were running the government I'd be opposed to the idea and I hope NATO will too.

I mean, let's be honest...the Taliban are a fanatical religious group that has no intention of negotiating anything, unless they get their 'brand' of Islam into every aspect of Afghani society -- no music, no secular anything and women would be relegated back to being the equivalent of fourth class citizens.

People complain at the actions taken by Iran, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait over their barbaric treatment of homosexuals, women and dissenters. The Taliban make the Saudis and the Iranians look like secular humanists.

[Kagemusha]

4. Er, the Saudis taught them everything they know.

Literally. You know, financing the madrassas where the Taliban (lit. People of the Book, IIRC) are educated?

[rpannier]

8. I realize that

I live in Asia.

But, the Taliban took what they learned to new lows the Saudis have never fell to.

[PsychoDad]

10. Taliban - Literally "Students"

It's interesting to note that they began as a Afghani grass roots movement that came into existence because of excesses of the feuding warlords.

Seems many Afghani's considered them a better alternative to the warlords... At least until they assumed control of the government.

May be hard to create any sort of real democratic government without them being included.

Peace.

[Igel]

12. Taliban

would be 'student'. I usually half-mockingly call them the Disciples, since in Islamist contexts, esp. in non-Arabic-speaking countries, it has a decidedly religious ring to it (then again, discipulus just meant 'student', but for me 'disciple' also has a quasi-religious ring to it). The MSA's journal at UCLA was al-Talib.

I don't understand the -an ending, which makes "Talib"indefinite and singular, but I'm only in 1st year Arabic. (I'll have to look up 'people of the book', but I'm guessing it'll be xxxxx + al-kitaab.)

[Kagemusha]

17. Ah, I was writing as an Arabic illiterate. Just what I'd heard

frankly the more elaborate version I had heard, when you think about it, it means 'student' anyway, I'm sure... I do a lot of crunching down of phrases in the other languages I do know, French and Japanese. I find languages quite fascinating in general.

[dailykoff]

3. Halliburton wins either way.

They got their 3000% profit spike and they'll be selling arms to Pakis for decades to come. Civil war is good bidness.

[VegasWolf]

26. My guess is that Halliburton will never let this happen. The Taliban prevented

the Caspian Sea oil pipeline from being run across Afghanistan. The Taliban had to be replaced in Cheney's world view. Bush put the puppet Karasi (ex Chevron Oil exec) in as president of Afghanistan and presto the Caspian Sea pipeline was built. The resurgence of the Taliban will certainly either control or tariff the pipeline to destabilize the US. The US loses, but what else do we expect from the chimpanzee IQ president of the US.

[BootinUp]

5. The only question is

whether Bush will start and lose a third war before 2009.

[Warren Stupidity]

6. Oh wait, that's right, the idiot got us into two losing wars!

I forgot all about our fuckup in Afghanistan what with our decision to withdraw support for al Maliki in Iraq and start backing the sunni factions, I just plain forgot that we totally screwed up Afghanistan too.

[rpannier]

9. And...

he's trying to make it 3 losing wars by going into Iran.

The republikkan spin meisters will tell us that we haven't lost anything (yet) so he hasn't lost any wars.

on note: You could say he's losing/lost 3 wars -- he's certainly not winning the war on terror.

But...he appears to be winning in his war on the poor and middle class.

[JerseygirlCT]

11. Yes, and the Pakistani government so has the moral high ground

here. They've been ever so helpful, haven't they?

If we'd been focused on Afghanistan, this wouldn't be happening. But we had to go on an adventure in empire-building in Iraq, instead.

[Zenlitened]

13. Exactly. That is exactly the issue. First, Bush didn't trust our troops...

... to go in and get bin Laden. He and the rest of the neocon "brain trust" had a much better idea: Hold our people back just as they were ready to pounce, and instead pay -- yes, with big sacks o' cash -- Afghani warlords to "smoke 'im out, heh heh."

Brilliant! These same warlords, all of the same religious/ideological mindset basically, had no problem putting their squabble over acreage on hold for a while, just long enough to take advantage of their common enemy, America. Grab the cash, give ol' bin-bin a wink, a handshake and a safe way out of Tora Bora -- all the while having a good laugh for having played Team Dubya for fools once again.

But that was only the beginning of the neocons' grand scheme.

Next, it was time to pull American forces away from the much-needed nation-building -- Gasp! That word! That, that... Clintonian word! Eeek! -- in Afghanistan, and turn our sights on Saddam Hussein.

Because when you're dealing with an enemy who is utterly contained, who has nothing but a little leftover trash-talk in his arsenal, who was already crumbling in the face of get-tough inspections... Well, in a situation like that, nothing but a full invasion utilizing America's unrivaled military might would do.

Oh, and also not having a plan for what came next, after our men and women did that barreling-right-to-the-capital's-doorstep thing they do so well. I mean, no one even bothered with that "Iraq is the fourth most powerful military blah blah" blather that we heard back in Gulf 1.

Our forces were going to kick ass, and no one ever doubted that. That's why sane people talked in terms of an "invasion," not a "war." It was never a war... until our men and women were left hanging by the brilliant Cheneys and Rummies of the "Bush" administration. Then it started to feel like a war in a big hurry.

And there they sit today, holding the bag for the failed fantasies of the White House Treason Club. For the failure of the press to report real truths and honest points of view, for the failure of voters to hold the civilian military leadership accountable. For the failure of the "opposition" party leadership to do its duty and make such a huge fuckin' ruckus that their views -- on the war, on the graft, on the vote-tampering -- could be no longer ignored, nor the views of their constituents.

So now we hear that handing Afghanistan back to the Taliban is the best way to go. Heck, maybe the only way at this point. Iraq? Is there even an agreed-upon definition of what "winning" there means?

Or does America merely hang her head in shame -- thanks, Dubya... thanks, Cheney and Rummy and all the rest -- and just bring the troops home now? And when they do come home, will we recognize that most of them, by far, are decent and honorable people who were failed by their civilian leaders as well as by their fellow citizens?

We, at least, will be able to say we tried to hold up our end of the bargain, we really did. And when we Democrats finally took the most strategically important hill on the battlefield, will we be able to say we made damned sure our stunning win finally turned the tide of this whole miserable conflict?

To our troops, to the people of Iraq and Afghanistan, to the whole world watching, I hope we can find enough unity amongst ourselves to demonstrate the true value of Democratic leadership. We've got a ton of work to do, at home and abroad. We can get so much done, beginning in January: real, practical, common-sense and -- when necessary -- hard-nosed bills brought to the floor and put to a vote, then slapped down on Dubya's desk.

Decide, "decider." Whimper and whine and veto legislation that every American knows is in his or her best interest. Or sign it, then shut up and stay out of the way while we roll up our sleeves and start building the country of our ideals once again, not of our fears. Where liberal, progressive, Democratic values are once again shown to be the heart and soul of this nation, its potential and its promise. The way its always been. The way it can be, once again now, if we stand up and do the job that needs to be done.
:dem:

[IndianaGreen]

22. and now we lost two wars and are about to lose...

the entire Middle East to Iran.

[Fridays Child]

14. Uh uh. Ain't gonna happen. There's a pipeline to be built.

Afghanistan will continue to be carpeted by bombs so that Bush can weave his carpet of gold.

[Roland99]

15. What's the latest on that? The deal was signed right after the US took over in 2001.

[Fridays Child]

18. From a November 22, 2006 article...

Future gas transit projects include the Trans-Afghan Pipeline (TAP) and the South Caucasus (Baku–Tbilisi–Erzerum, or BTE) Pipeline. The TAP will bring gas from Turkmenistan through Afghan­istan to Fazilka, a port on the Indian–Pakistani bor­der. The governments of Turkmenistan, Afghanistan, and Pakistan signed a Memorandum of Under­standing in February of 2006 for construction of the pipeline, and it also has strong backing from India. American officials are promoting the TAP, which will be renamed TAPI when India signs on, as an alternative to the Iran–Pakistan–India pipe­line. However, instability in Afghanistan and ques­tions surrounding the commercial viability of the project, which has a planned annual capacity of 1.1 bcf, have far delayed its implementation.

http://www.gundogar.org/?0220043495000000000000011000000

[Roland99]

19. Good thing the countries that attacked us have oil/gas under them

Oh wait...no country has attacked us...just one small but effective group.

[leesa]

32. But didn't China and India sign an agreement and basically scoop the Caspian goods out from under

them anyway? I seem to remember that and it made the whole point of invading Afghanistan moot (I'm assuming OBL was a scam)

[Fridays Child]

33. I think you're right. But you sure didn't hear that from the U.S. media.

[Copperred]

16. The Democratic party should STAND UP AGAINST AND PUT FULL SANCTIONS ON PAKISTAN

The Democratic party should put full economic and military sanctions and blockade on Pakistan, and continue to put greater focused REAL investment into the reconstruction of Afghanistan. The US should be putting at least 5B a year into reconstruction projects in Afgahnistan, focused in the Afghan tribal belt south of Kabul.

All Democrats shoulds be fully educating themselvse as to who is Asfandyar Wali Khan, head of the ANP Party in the North West Frontier Province of Pakistan.

[IndianaGreen]

21. Get a grip! We already lost Iraq and are on the verge of losing Afghanistan

The only remaining issue is how many names do we want on a future Iraq and Afghanistan war memorial. The sooner we bring all of our troops home, and the quicker we get down to resolving the Israel-Palestinian conflict, the better off we are going to be.

You guys should have thought about this when many of you supported our arming the Islamic radicals against the Marxist government in Afghanistan, or when we put the Shah back in power in Iran, or backed the Baathists against the Socialists in Iraq.

[Copperred]

23. Time to pay our long term debts to the Afghan people who do not want us to leave.

The only reason we are in jeopardy in Afgahnistan is because we refuse to turn our back on the mililtary junta of Pakistan. If we were to do that, the tribal people of Pakistan would realise we actually mean what we say and Afghanistan would stablize.

Again, if you don't know anything about the ANP Party and Asfandyar Wali Khan....please educate yourself.

May the Democratic party have the wisdome to see exactly what is going on in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

[IndianaGreen]

24. They are on their own!

Our military is being decimated for nothing in Iraq, and we lost a golden opportunity in 2002 when we pulled troops out of Afghanistan to pursue a war of choice in Iraq.

OTOH, you are welcome to enlist in the military and do your bid in paying "our long term debts to the Afghan people who do not want us to leave." I pray that all Afghan exiles living in comfort in the West that feel as you do, go back to Afghanistan and do their bid.

It is not our war!

[Copperred]

25. ANP Party - Asfandyar Wali Khan

The Golden Opportunity for Afghanistan is not lost.

That we went into Iraq is an unfortunate situation..... Iraq and Afghanistan are not synonymous with the same realities, people, or potentials. The solutions, challenges, or lack of answers is not the same either.

Yes, Indiana, I am, as you say, "enlisted" and was in Afghanistan in 2004 and plan to go back this year. You stay happy sitting in Indiana, your hands are stained as much as anyone elses. Maybe when you come to understand the full history of US foreign policy in South Asia you will awaken to the nightmare you are a functional part of.

It is your War. You, via our government (you are an American right?) have supported the military junta of Pakistan repeatedly in opppressing democratic secular movements and thus creating the prime ground that has led to the frictions we have today. If you feel have we have no responsibility to correct what we created...then that is your choice. Had during those same decades we done something a bit more long term in thinking that actually attracted the people to our nation, like helping the mass supported secular nationalists movements within Pakistan split, as they have wanted to do repeatedely since the 50s...you would not have to hide in Indiana.

Cheers,
From Ohio

PS. Not an Afghan exile. Next time you meet one though, you should give him a hand of thanks. His people fought your war.

[IndianaGreen]

27. Nope, I have opposed Musharraf since his coup against Nawaz Sharif

I also opposed the war in Iraq since before it started. You can also find in the old DU archives my posts against the war in Afghanistan (in a nutshell, our response to 9-11 should have been similar to Israel's response to the Munich Massacre).

I have met Afghan exiles, two women classmates of mine in an undergrad class on women and the law, and they didn't go back to Afghanistan because even under Karzai, women are still being oppressed under sharia law.

As to "hiding," I have done my bid for "king and country" in and out of uniform during the days of the Republic, before Bush became dictator.

[goforit]

28. GEEE thats exactly what the GOP would do.

[IndianaGreen]

30. The problem is not Pakistan. The problem is Saudi Arabia's financing

of religious schools around the world that teach a version of Islam that is virulently intolerant, homophobic, misogynist, and anti-Semitic.

[sweetheart]

20. They can blow up stone statues...

.. the b*loody* buddha's arn't worth a human life,
let the taliban alone to their unconsigned irrelevance.

[Odin2005]

29. Afganistan was the place we should of sent 160.000 troops, not Iraq.

But NOOOOO, the Neo-Cunts had to go after Iraq's oil instead of concentrating on wiping out the Taliban and AQ... :banghead:

Edit: Oh, and Pakistan can go fuck itself.

[yellowcanine]

31. Another "crown jewel" of Bush foreign policy turns out to be a turd.

Has he done anything right?