U.S. diocese favors break with Episcopal Church

[FVZA_Colonel]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061202/us_nm/church_schism_dc



U.S. diocese favors break with Episcopal Church
By Jorene Barut-Phillips

FRESNO, California (Reuters) - A California diocese of the Episcopal Church on Saturday took a major step toward breaking with the U.S. church because of its position on issues including homosexuality, a move unseen since the U.S. Civil War.

Clergy and lay representatives at the annual convention of the 10,000-member Diocese of San Joaquin voted 176-28 in favor of the step, according to the Rev. Van McCalister, a spokesman for the diocese that represents 48 parishes in central California's San Joaquin Valley.

If the measure passes again next year, it would allow for the development of a new church that officials say would break from the leadership of the new head of the Episcopal Church, Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori, while remaining part of the worldwide Anglican Church.

Individual parishes have left the church in recent years, but Saturday's move marks the first time since the Civil War that an entire diocese has voted to distance itself from the church, McCalister said.

[IndianaGreen]

1. Would Jesus separate himself from a Church led by a woman and

accepting of gays? I think not!

[VegasWolf]

2. Don't know. If Jesus were making a 100 million a year through non-profit corporations

whipping starry eyed evangelicals into foaming at the mouth over abortion and gay issues like these clowns are, he might.

[Flirtus]

4. Hey! We are not evangelical.

quit lumping all xians in the same pot.

[VegasWolf]

7. Never said that, I said Evangelicals. nt

[Flirtus]

11. then I don't know what you're talking about

so forget about it

[VegasWolf]

14. LOL! You brought it up! nt

[Flirtus]

15. Nope, you're wrong. Read Your Post. n/t

[VegasWolf]

16. Which part of "starry eyed evangelicals" is confusing you? nt

[Flirtus]

17. I don't expect you to understand

But, here goes, and I'll regret this in the morning,

Your post has 'e', not 'E'. It seemed to be La Belle Indifference you were insisting upon. (google that. 'twere a slight.)

All Christians, unfortunately, do not believe the same exact thing. Episcopalians, especially, feel 'called' to be 'inclusive' and 'forgiving', and when truly cynical, I insist that all Christians are so called. Most Episcopalians I know were not raised in the anglican faith, and come from every sect and faith, even agnostic and atheistic.

My parish, which I chose because it best reflects my understanding of God, Faith, etc, is a medium sized, friendly, diverse group of old/young/straight/gay/unsure/black/white/mixed/Southern/immigrant/never-divorced/blended-family/well, you get the drift, People who have dealt with it, seen it, been there, hardly have stars in their eyes, but have great faith. And we are not, by our very nature, able to parade in the streets and proclaim our insistance that others feel/think/believe exactly as we.

If you are one who does not have great faith, then peace be with you. This thread is about an Episcopal Diocese behaving badly in my view, and, as a fellow Episcopalian, I feel enabled to speak my opinion, even obliged, and, further, and more importantly to me, I feel like I will be called upon to discuss this with my bishop and my diocese soon, so I thought I was interested in your input, but, alas, I am not.

[VegasWolf]

19. So that is what was bothering you!

I am often lax with capitalization, and had no particular bias toward the big 'E' over the little 'e'. Everyone, I hope, understands that not all Christians are "foaming at the mouth" fundies. Ideally, that point should not even need stating, but with all the mouth-foamers giving other Christians such a bad name maybe some non-disclosure is necessary. I was simply playing word games with Indy on my original post.

In your meeting with your bishop,( btw, my uncle is a Catholic Bishop, but religion eludes me completely as a scientist ), you might mention that the Catholics had solved the property issues ages ago when they stopped allowing priests to marry. Wives and children started laying claim to Church property, and of course, that behavior had to be stopped. In the Catholic Church, the Church owns all the property.

On a philosophical note, why would women not be allowed to be priests. What possible reason for that could there be? When King Constantine started the Catholic Church, of course women were ostracized as he was shifting organized religion from the pagan gods to a new triune god, and the old pagan religions worshiped the woman as an ideal model ( Mother Earth). St. Augustine was deeply afraid of menstrual blood on the altar, so more bias. Anyone in this day and age, in my opinion, who will not allow women on the religious stage are what I would call evangelicals. Is that with the big 'E' or little 'e', I forget.

[JerseygirlCT]

27. Couple of things

We are not the Roman Catholic Church.

Women are indeed priests, although a couple of outlaw bishops still refuse to ordain women in TEC.

Property is not owned by individual priests or even individual parishes, but held by the diocese. So the medieval issues with the Catholic church and married priests as it relates to property don't apply at all here.

The question on property will be whether a bishop can remove his diocese from TEC and still hold onto the property. That one is likely to be fought in both church and civil courts. And will be messy, hurtful and expensive.

[VegasWolf]

29. Yes, by definition you are not the Roman Catholic Church, the Catholic

Church is your ancestor. Women are priests in your church sometimes and after years of struggle. The Diocese vs an individual priest is mere semantics. The Diocese is represented by an individual, the bishop, the man who makes the decisions, the man who reaps the rewards of those decisions. The point would be moot if the Central Church has unquestioned ownership of all assets. That is the solution that the Catholic Church came to eventually.

The point here is that a bunch of fruit-cakes in Fresno represent a majority of the xtian thinking in their bigotry toward gays and women, science and evolution, and just rational thinking in general. Your brothers and sisters give xtians a bad name. Dobson, Falwell, Haggard are enough to make an atheist sick.

[JerseygirlCT]

31. The point is, the few in Fresno are most

assuredly the minority in the Episcopal Church. That's why their move toward schism is such news.

TEC is moving steadily toward complete acceptance of gays. Women are already there, as evidenced by our new Presiding Bishop. And unless what I've read is wrong, that new Presiding Bishop supports the full inclusion of gays and lesbians in our church, including the ministry.

We are not Dobson, Falwell et al. Far, far from it.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

5. You must be talking about Supply Side Jesus

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x7729

[VegasWolf]

8. Yes, and trickle-down theory Jesus. Absolute power corrupts absolutely! nt

[Flirtus]

3. A California Diocese?

What is wrong with this picture?

As an Episcopalian, and a member of my parish's Vestry, and a Diocesean Convention delegate, I sincerely hope my faith and my patience are never tried by this action in my own diocese.

Gays are gay. Deal with it.

[VegasWolf]

6. They are in Fresno, nuff said! nt

:toast:

[k8conant]

23. Another Episcopalian for peace and justice...

would be me, also a Vestry member and Convention delegate, as well as layreader, organist, chalicist, lector, and woman.

I attended Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori's investiture on November 4th and will echo her sermon: "Shalom!"

[nealmhughes]

30. Me. too, minus the woman and organist.

Evidently some do not know much about the Anglican Communion, and the EC, in particular.

Parishes elect their rector (except for missions where the bishop appopints them). They are regulated locally by the vestry (legal board of directors). The bishops(s) of each disocese control the property. Our bishops are elected by the clergy and parish reps.

We are not fundamentalists. Some individual members may be, but few of our clergy and most members. Some of us are "bells and smells", i.e., Anglo Catholic. Others are low on the ceremony and Morning Prayer is like attending a UMC service w/o Communion.

The great thing about the EC is that I have seen an entire family at the altar together: father as priest, sons as altar boys, the wife reading and giving the chalice. I have also seen two divorced couples bring the bread and wine and money to the altar: one was male and the other female. They "switched" partners(the men went together and the women the same) and are full respected members in our parish.
That is the Episcopal Church.
Easter Eve the deacon preached after she lit the New Fire: feed the hungry, visit the incarcerated and the sick, sit with the dying, fight for justice, forgive even those whom you claim to hate. That was about the sermon.
That is the Episcopal Church.

[xchrom]

9. get ready to leave retirement pensions and lots of property behind.

and as an active episcopalian -- i wholeheartedly invite you to GET THE FUCK OUT!

[Flirtus]

10. Thank You!

I'm missing the forest for the trees!

(and the gin...)

[xchrom]

12. lol --yeah that money and property thing is gonna sting.

that doesn't mean i want them to stay.

[JerseygirlCT]

13. That's why they didn't go all the way and break

They're still hoping they can find some way to hold onto the property while not being a part of TEC.

As I understand it, when this proposal gets a positive vote a second time, the break happens. If that happened now, they'd lose their property, which reverts to TEC.

They're hoping to convince the Anglican Communion that what is needed is another entire province, to which all the ultra-conservative Episcopalians, pissed off at having to treat women and gays as people, could belong.

It shouldn't work.

What they're doing is throwing down the gauntlet and daring Bishop Schori to blink.

From what I've seen so far of her, she's way too smart to play their game.

But bottom line, I agree with you -- get out, and leave the rest of us in peace and tolerance.

[ChazII]

18. Let them go and keep their property, too.

I say this as a member of the Episcopal church here in AZ.

[teenagebambam]

20. My sources tell me...

...this is just the tip of the iceberg. My source (a gay Episcopal priest) expects a full-blown schism soon, with the conservative churches leaving the US communion and aligning themselves with the African Episcopals, who hate the gays and the women priests and all that good stuff. Good riddance, I say.

[QC]

21. That's the shape of things...

and it can't happen fast enough for me.

I have no desire to belong to an African fertility cult.

[Rowdyboy]

25. Just wait til the rightwing African bishops take over tyhe Episcopal church

Can female circumcision be far behind?

[JerseygirlCT]

26. Yes, and then the question becomes what the ABC intends to do

(if he intends to actually "do" anything at all).

Will this breech of tradition (WRT oversight and provinces) be addressed? Allowed? Will the outlaw dioceses then have "Anglican" and "Episcopal" churches within them to serve both members of TEC and those who need to continue to hate women and gays? If so, who gets the buildings and other property?

It's really pretty awful that a small but noisy group of malcontents is willing to do all this just to maintain their hate.

[Odin2005]

22. What's with Fresno attractring RW nutjobs?

Isn't Free Republic run from Fresno?

[FVZA_Colonel]

24. I believe it is.

EOM.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

28. There are two sliver linings. or should I say splinter.

First sliver:
While the churches were all together, they represented a noticeable bloc, including blockheads, which caused pols of all stripes to sit up and take notice. Even if not all members of the religious organization were on the same page regarding issues like gays, gay relationships, abortion, IraqNam, etc, THEY GAVE THE APPEARANCE OF UNINAMITY AND STRENGHT. And that caused the GOP to become more energized, willing to mix secular and theocratic crap, and to head to the ultra-right. (the fact that religious thinkers and nonthinkers are as diverse as the general population was conveniently ignored by the Democrats, the GOP and the MSM).

With this split, they cannot claim such power or control anymore. The beautiful thing about this split is that this sliver of outrageous gay-hating, bigots can continue to clothe themselves in a mantle of ultra-conservative political thought, but, they will hold say only over their small minded members. Except for a few delusional GOP talking heads, they will be nothing more than an irritating sliver.

Second sliver:
We will no longer be the boogie man in their political gunsights. They have a new enemy - their former brothers in christ. They will rail, and argue and scream and shout and stamp their jesus nikes, fundementally convinced that those they left behind in a cloud of dust and a spew of anti-gay hatred are the personification of evil - even more so than Pelosi or Hillary.
There is only so much hatred that one can sustain for any length of time.
Honestly, Who is it easier to hate? Your ex-spousette, the one that broke every lightbulb in your house, saran wrapped your toilet, removed all fuses from the fusebox, and stuck metal and superglue in your locks when the court ordered her out, or a distant target like a senator from NewYork, or a congresscritter from California. The closer and dearer someone was, the easier it is to maintain and stoke a strong emotion.
Translation, these assholes will be so busy spewing their brand of hatred against their former partners, that they won't have time for MSM, GOP or the Democrat Party.

good riddance. They deserve the crop - and crap - they sow.