Ahmadinejad: Holocaust is now up for debate

[democratic]

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/world/international-iran-holocaust.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

``For 60 years talking about the Holocaust was a crime in the West but now there is a serious debate about the Holocaust in the media and also in political and popular meetings,'' state television quoted Ahmadinejad as saying. Ahmadinejad sparked an international outcry by referring to the Holocaust as a ``myth'' and saying Israel should be relocated to Europe or North America.

``Even some Western politicians have declared that the original foundation of the Zionist regime (Israel) was a mistake,'' he said on Saturday.

Deputy Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mohammadi has said the Holocaust conference will look at issues such as ``whether the gas chambers were actually used by the Nazis.''

[dsc]

1. I am sure he was just misinterpreted

apparently that happens just about everytime he opens his mouth about the holocost.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[davidinalameda]

2. and some wonder why there is a concern about whether or not

Iran goes nuclear

can anyone imagine this regime with nukes?

[IndianaGreen]

4. I don't care if Iran goes nuclear, and neither should anyone else!

The views expressed by President Ahmadinejad are shared by millions of people across the world, and are taught in Islamic schools that were established and financed by Saudi Arabia.

Nothing the NY Times says about Iran, its nuclear program, or Ahmadinejad's anti-Semitism, is a rationale for bombing Iran.

Israel has nukes, and rather than having the US do their dirty work in Iran as we did in Iraq, Israel better learn to deal with it as we did when we faced a similar "threat" during the Cold War. Iran won't attack Israel with nukes because doing so will bring Iran's own destruction, and will cause the deaths of millions of Muslims living in and around Israel, as well as destroying Muslim holy sites.

The real threat is not Iran! The real threat is having someone that has no compulsion about killing millions of innocent people, including Muslims, getting their hands on fissionable materials, or their byproducts such as polonium 210, that can be used in a dirty bomb. Al-Qaeda is such a threat and they have not hesitated in the past to kill countless of innocent people, including Muslims, if it serves their strategic purposes.

[davidinalameda]

5. since his beliefs are "shared by millions of people across the world"

that makes them okay?

I do care if Iran goes nuclear; we know that they're linked to the Shiites in Iraq

what would happen if any group in Iraq were given a dirty bomb by their masters in Tehran?

that would be the catalyst for WW3;

the theocrats in Iran don't care if they kill other Muslims or not-take a look at the war with Saddam; take a look at their support of the Shiites in Iraq

the nutcases in charge are the Islamic equals to Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson except they're in power

and anyone who denies that the Holocaust didn't take place is either a liar or sadly misguided

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[IndianaGreen]

15. It doesn't matter what Ahmadinejad think about Jews or Israel

What matters is that our idiotic policies in the Middle East have cost us thousands of dead and wounded in Iraq, with many more to follow if we listen to the likes of the NY Times and their pro-Iran war propaganda.

Pathetic how some people are more concerned about the anti-Semitism of one man, while ignoring the crimes committed by Israel in Palestine and Lebanon, and her manipulation of American public opinion in order to get us to go to war against Iran.

[No Exit]

18. Hear, hear!!! You're absolutely right!!

[Pale Blue Dot]

21. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

It IS possible to condemn the anti-sematism of a major world leader while at the same time condemn the right-wing neocon policies of Isreal.

In fact, I think it is best if we do both.

[IndianaGreen]

13. The Shias and Al-Qaeda are mortal enemies

as was Saddam and Al-Qaeda. Our ignorance of the Middle East is our downfall.

Israel doesn't care about American GIs dying in Iraq! An attack on Iran will put our troops in mortal danger of being overrun by the Iraqi Shias.

[INDIA]

24. "Put our troops in mortal danger"

Yes Indiana, like you I am concerned about our troops. It's good to see you are so concerned about their welfare....
*cough* *cough*

[eridani]

28. Falwell and Robertson ARE in power, at least indirecly

--through the medium of Bush. Do you really trust that people like General Boykin absolutely will never ever be able to pull a Jack D. Ripper number? I'd rate the US, Israel, India and Pakistan as the most dangerous nuclear powers by virtue of potential control of large arsenals by religious whackjobs. Though Russia wins the prize as the nation most likely to start a worldwide nuclear holocaust by accident because their command and control mechanisms have deteriorated so badly.

[krispos42]

35. Iran can make a dirty bomb now

We know they've enriched at least a little uranium, and that is enough to contaminate enough people and property to cause a major problem and terrorism fears. Ground to a fine metallic powder and dispersed by an explosion so it gets inhaled and spread into the water and sewer systems.

Depleted uranium is causing problems as it is, formed into a vapor and fine particles by high-velocity impacts. Now imagine if that stuff actually had some potentcy to it.

I'm not real thrilled about Iran going nuclear, but they are a soviegn nation. We will have to deal with this threat the same way we did with the USSR, China, France, England, India, Pakistan, and Israel: lots of talking, lots of covert ops, lots of surveillence, lots of deep-cover agents, etc. Basically, the way that BushCo is NOT dealing with Iran or North Korea!

Man, it would be great if we could get some sort of covert CIA agent with a cover as an energy consultant to go to these countries and see what's going on. We could make up a fake company with a very forgettable name, like, oh, say, Brewser, Jennings, and Associates, and she could use that as...

What? We did that already? So what happened? Why don't we know more than we do?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brewster-Jennings_%26_Associates

Oh, shit. Well, incompetence knows no bounds, I guess...

And I agree. If you still don't think that 12 million or more Jews, gays, Gypsies, and Slavs died in German concentration camps, you're in a certain river in Egypt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust

[chknltl]

30. Well said. Thank You IndianaGreen

I am not a freeper...this means that I can read your words, understand what you say and NOT read into your words that you are "misunderstanding" or "supporting" Ahmadinejad. (Hear that my fellow DUers?)

It is a sad fact that there are folks around the world who share the views of Ahmadinejad. IF the minds of those believers are to be changed it will NOT be through further demonizing them or their beliefs.

Our courses of action with Iran are:

Ignore them...Does that appear to be working anyone?

Rattle our saber's at them... That'll make them quiet down... NOT!!! It strengthens their position, is that what ANYONE here wants?

Military action... Hmmm that worked SOOOO well with Iraq and you can count on the freeper vote for that course of action.

Diplomacy... A course of action which is closing as we speak...the further Iraq slips away into anarchy, the further our position in a diplomatic resolution weakens.

Are there any other courses of action? (Dream on if you believe that another coalition will gear up to go with us into Iran after witnessing our recent behavior in Iraq.)

There are quite a few Middle Eastern leaders who claim that America is the "infidel crusader out to rob the Muslim world of its resources". Does anyone here want to see that belief strengthened by our current actions? Just because WE know that we are NOT those crusaders, that knowledge is not going to change anyone else's views. Only our actions will do that. We can reinforce those views by ignoring the believers, demonizing the believers or attacking those believers. Diplomacy, education and actions by us which are contrary to that way of thinking, is the ONLY way to weaken that particular viewpoint. If we can not win their minds we can NOT win the war.

Just because WE know that Ahmadinejads views on the Holocaust are wrong, that knowledge, combined with any action other than diplomacy is NOT going to change anyone else's views....it only serves to strengthen them. Do you suppose that might be what Ahmadinejad and his kind WANTS? Again if we can not win their minds we can not win the war!

Nobody REALLY wants to see Iran become a Nuclear arms peddeler...the only way to decrease our concerns here is through diplomacy and the longer we wait the harder it will be. In the meanwhile we are AGAIN taking our eye off the ball: OBN and Alqaeda.
c

[krispos42]

36. How about regime change?

I doubt we can pull it off, but for sake of a complete list of options, the fact that we might be able to somehow change the government exists, even though I am not sure how that could be accomplished, if all.

Otherwise, excellent post. I concur with all of your points.

[chknltl]

39. Why thank you krispos42.... Regime change:

: As long as that regime change is internal. We can not be perceived as being the ones creating this change...The ol' do unto others as you would have done unto you applies here: We HATE bUSH but we would hardly put up with the UN coming in and removing that idiot and putting someone they favor in power-even if it were someone we liked!

Even so, as you point out it is an option. Sadly it is likely an option which may happen anyway but not in a way that benefits America. I keep hearing here in the DU and elsewhere that there are "regime change" rumblings going on in Iran. It is likely that the new regime may be even more fanatical and even less inclined to negotiate with us. An enemy I can negotiate with is far better to one that I can not negotiate with. Time grows short indeed.
c

[Karenina]

41. America has been completely discredited

and is no longer "THE" controlling or influencing factor it once may have been. As much as I appreciate the openness expressed in your post, I do believe your starting point of "America the good" is flawed.

"It is a sad fact that there are folks around the world who share the views of Ahmadinejad. IF the minds of those believers are to be changed it will NOT be through further demonizing them or their beliefs."

Anti-semitism in the Mideast is an historical, deeply-entrenched fact of life. It is actually better described as anti-zionism and is also not as black and white as the American mindset seems to process it (along with most everything else ;-) ). Their is a clear distinction made between Jewish members of a community (they being people of the Book) and the "Zionist demon." I'm a fly on the wall under deep cover when this topic comes up amongst Muslim friends and aquaintances. I find it pretty convoluted. :crazy: Habib comes from a village in Morocco that has a Jewish minority. When he spews about "JEWS" he is NOT talking about them. Indeed, were anyone to dare look at his Jewish homies cross-eyed they would do well to duck, cover and run...

The anti-semitic template will NEVER BUDGE until the Palestinian issue is confronted FAIRLY. Do Google Gaza.

"There are quite a few Middle Eastern leaders who claim that America is the "infidel crusader out to rob the Muslim world of its resources"."

Here is where I would like to challenge your thought processes. AMERICA IS, HAS BEEN AND CONTINUES TO BE EXACTLY WHAT THEY CLAIM.

"Does anyone here want to see that belief strengthened by our current actions? Just because WE know that we are NOT those crusaders, that knowledge is not going to change anyone else's views. Only our actions will do that. We can reinforce those views by ignoring the believers, demonizing the believers or attacking those believers."

Views in the Mideast are informed by centuries of imperialist meddling in their affairs. The actions of western powers belie what you the people claim to be about. You can demonize Muslims to your heart's content as you have and continue to do. You ARE CRUSADERS (your *chimp-in-chief" confirmed that in one of his drooling blathers) and can HAVE NO INFLUENCE on those beliefs until perhaps such time as YOUR BEHAVIOUR CHANGES. I'm not holding my breath.

"Diplomacy, education and actions by us which are contrary to that way of thinking, is the ONLY way to weaken that particular viewpoint. If we can not win their minds we can NOT win the war."

I know you mean well, but this comes off sounding very paternalistic and patronizing. What is happening in Iraq is the result of an illegal, immoral INVASION followed by a BRUTAL OCCUPATION. It is NOT a "war". America and its *MIC after what has ALREADY BEEN DONE will not be "winning minds" for many generations to come. What exactly do you mean by "win the war?" What would constitute a "win"?

*America's purpose in Iraq is CONTROLLING THE OIL. The Iraqi population is systematically being DECIMATED to that end. Mission Accomplished?

[chknltl]

42. No not everyone here are infidel crusaders!

I have no desire to see America with direct control over any nation other than America. I have no doubts that the Iraqi fiasco is over the stealing of Iraqi resources, none. I differ with you that America has been completely discredited. The bush white house is not AMERICA, this last election demonstrates that. Most of the world is aware of that as well. It would be my strongest hope that those who perpetrated the crimes against humanity be tried in a world court and brought to justice. Doing this can only strengthen America's position in the eyes of the world. I doubt that will happen but it would be a tremendous step in the right direction.

Regardless of if it happens that way or not the best hope for the Middle East is diplomacy by all interested parties and that includes America. Bush and his handlers put us there and have managed to mess it up worse than it was when Saddam was still in power. The demonizing of those parties that bushco or any prior administration has chosen to victimize for whatever reason must cease. It is counterproductive to diplomacy. In my opinion anything other than diplomacy will be far more expensive in needless human deaths and suffering.

There are many here who feel that we must not negotiate with the likes of Syria or Iran in this.
So what options remain for America? Stay the course? Pack up and leave? Some variant of one or the other? I say again any of those will be at an even greater expense in loss of life, and a further deterioration of what little influence we may have left for diplomacy. Any of those options are strengthening Iran in the eyes of the Muslim world. Those here who fear Iran "with a nuke" will come to see their fears realized by those options and a significant decrease in any support we may yet have or might have gained through diplomacy.

Being the bully is no longer an option...it is a death warrant. America needs to rejoin the world community and cease appearing to be the bully, I remind you that the bush admin is NOT America. Only through diplomacy can the world move forward to make honest attempts at resolving it's problems. That diplomacy must include all interested parties, not just those bushco feels like working with.
c

[Karenina]

49. YOU may personally have no desire

to see America with direct control over any nation other than America. However, the corporate interests that control your gubmint and your lives have a completely different agenda. THOSE interests have been running amok for quite some time now. If you've never read Smedley Darlington Butler's "War is a Racket" you may find it enlightening. Then for a very recent and forgotten example see: Haiti.

Americans lost their "benefit of the doubt" with the last presidential election. How do you feel about the statement: Hitler is NOT Germany?
(At least some of those who aided and abetted him were brought to trial). How about: Saddam is not Iraq or Ahmanidejiad is not Iran? You doubt that holding your own war criminals accountable could happen in the "Home of the Brave" yet seem to expect a deference you (collectively) have not shown to others. :shrug: Help me out here.

It is clear YOU PERSONALLY believe in truth, justice and diplomacy. It is also clear that your public face as represented by the *decider and his minions and his ISG do NOT. As for the new Congress, my ears will perk up once Henry Waxman is off the leash. ;-)

[chknltl]

51. Is Germany still Hitler? Is Mongolia still Khan?

I am aware enough that corporations have too much influence over my country. I am aware enough that this is wrong. I am aware enough that a large root of the worlds problems are caused by this. I am unaware of any magic which I might perform which will bring about immediate change in that.
I pick my battles...don't you? I am but one, armed with a keyboard, what internal sense I can put together and the power to vote. I am NOT despondent.

I fear seeing an escalation of hostilities which can lead to an outright declared war between the Middle East and America. I fear the (further) use of WMD anywhere. As I can not reasonably expect the corporations who have so much influence over my government to come clean and make amends, as I can not reasonably expect the members of my government to surrender to full investigation and punishment for their crimes against humanity, as I feel the need as a citizen of this world to do SOMETHING while living within the limitations of my environs, I will continue to do what I do.

but enough about me....

How do you go about trying to make the world a better place? My posts, which have been meant to share my thoughts about how we are continuing to strengthen that very monster we fear has touched a nerve here. I can understand where that monster would prefer my thoughts be kept to myself, what role do you choose to play.....
c

[cali]

46. There's so much wrong with this claim

that I don't know where to begin:

Anti-semitism in the Mideast is an historical, deeply-entrenched fact of life. It is actually better described as anti-zionism and is also not as black and white as the American mindset seems to process it (along with most everything else ). Their is a clear distinction made between Jewish members of a community (they being people of the Book) and the "Zionist demon." I'm a fly on the wall under deep cover when this topic comes up amongst Muslim friends and aquaintances. I find it pretty convoluted. Habib comes from a village in Morocco that has a Jewish minority. When he spews about "JEWS" he is NOT talking about them. Indeed, were anyone to dare look at his Jewish homies cross-eyed they would do well to duck, cover and run...

The first sentence is correct. The second sentence is mostly incorrect. Anti-semitism in the mideast pre-dates the establishment of Israel, although it has undoubtedly exasperated it. But to claim that their is a clear distinction made between Jewish members of a community and the Zionists is, by and large, quite wrong.

I suggest you read this article. It's brief and fairly on target.

http://www.slate.com/?id=2057949

[Emillereid]

19. According to Scott Ritter, President Ahmadinejad has no real power.

[democratic]

33. He is right

All power is vested in the unelected Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei who is even more extreme than Ahmadinejad

[Emillereid]

34. Actually Ritter claims that Khamenei is more modergate -- that

he actually says that nuclear weapons are against the tenets of Islam and appears to be more tolerant of Israel.

[Rex]

6. Serious debate in the West? Who? David Duke?

Pat Buchanan? Which one said it Ahmad? Why keep fucking up by spouting ignorance? Surely Ahmad ain't that stupid.

[geek tragedy]

7. His lack of sanity and decency aren't up for debate.

He's a sick, evil ass.

But, unless his regime has a rocket that can reach the US, I'm not too worried about Iran.

[davidinalameda]

11. his regime may have rockets that can reach his neighbors

and we all know with the lax security in our ports, it wouldn't take much for a dirty bomb to be smuggled in

[originalpckelly]

16. His neighbors might have 200 nuclear weapons.(nt)

[davidinalameda]

32. and if I lived in that neighborhood

I'd have 200 nukes myself

[eridani]

29. Why would they bother with Iran?

Russia and other ex-Soviet countries have lots of unemployed nuclear scientists, and lots of other sorts of WMD guarded by soldiers that don't get paid very often and rusty bicycle locks.

[fujiyama]

8. But he's just misunderstood and misinterpreted

:sarcasm:

[Zynx]

10. Good fucking grief. This guy should cut out his own tongue before

he embarasses himself any further.

[struggle4progress]

12. Germany condemns Holocaust conference in Iran

The Associated Press
Published: December 8, 2006

BERLIN: Germany condemned a planned Iranian conference on the Holocaust and summoned Iran's charge d'affaires to the Foreign Ministry, saying Friday that attempts to question the Nazis' murder of Jews were "shocking and unacceptable."

The conference, scheduled for Sunday and Monday, was organized by Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who has called the systematic killing of some 6 million Jews a "myth" and "exaggerated." Some 67 foreign researchers from 30 countries are scheduled to attend the two-day meeting.

"We condemn all past and future attempts of anyone who gives a platform to those who relativize or question the Holocaust," Foreign Ministry spokesman Jens Ploetner said ...

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/12/08/europe/EU_GEN_Germany_Iran_Holocaust_Conference.php

[fedsron2us]

20. Need any more be said

[originalpckelly]

14. In other news Mel Gibson and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad have started partying...

together.

That way Mel doesn't have to worry about getting drunk!

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pale Blue Dot]

22. Isn't it funny that the ones who deny the holocaust

would be the first to do it again if they had the chance?

[Endangered Specie]

23. Ironic when you consider what most Nazi's would have done

to him had they got the chance.

[ckramer]

25. "Israel should be relocated to Europe or North America" - that's when blind support

for Israel will completely disappear in USA.

[DavidDvorkin]

26. And all white Americans should be relocated to Europe

Then all kinds of blind support will disappear.

[Harper_is_Bush]

27. And so is Global Warming

Both are despicable.

[Show_Me _The_Truth]

31. ANyone have a list of the so called experts

going to this thing and the countries they come from? Wonder who Mahmoud's Venezuelan buddy is going to send?

[FVZA_Colonel]

37. I do believe one Mr. David Duke is going to attend.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x251081


As if anyone really needed any more proof that this conference is a load of shit...

[moondust]

38. Dinny, just go back to Podunk.

You're an embarrassment to the human race.

[Spider Jerusalem]

40. One has to wonder...

if he's going to come out at some point with a statement that Hitler was a great man and a bold and inspired leader who's been horribly wronged by a smear campaign of lies and propaganda. After all, he's already said that the Holocaust is a "myth", and that Jews control the US media, entertainment and banking industries. Or perhaps he'll claim that Middle Eastern extremism is a frame-up plotted by a sinister Jewish cabal and point to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion as evidence. Given the other things he's been saying, neither would come as all that much of a surprise.

And it's the fault of the US and UK that Iran is run by such people, in a way; had the CIA and MI6 not plotted a coup to overthrow the democratically elected government of Muhammad Mossadegh back in '53 and install the Shah, the Islamic revolution of '79 wouldn't have happened, and this lunatic wouldn't be where he is now.

[Marie26]

43. *yawn*

Ahmadinajad has finally found a sure-fire way to get publicity & piss off the West. And he won't shut up about it - I think we can look forward to many more statements in the future.

[Karenina]

48. Bingo, Marie!

Ya gotta admit Ahmanidjit is a MASTER at stirring the pot. :eyes:

[w4rma]

44. If he doesn't censor this conference, like he has been doing with the interenet, then he will find

his answer. And it won't be the answer he seems to have been brought up to believe.

On edit:
Holocaust deniers ban dissenting voice (Iran)
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2497895,00.html
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2647819

[sutz12]

45. One common denominator of all of these fanatics....

Bush included, is how they insist that they know what everyone else, especially their enemy, is thinking.

One important facet of the pre-Iraq-invasion misinformation campaign was the BushCo supposition that the Iraqis would "greet us like liberators." It was marginally true, of course, with plenty of photo ops to seed the propaganda campaign. But, of course, we morphed from liberators into occupiers and all the good feelings, to noone's suprise but the Bushies, withered away in a storm of incompetence, corruption, and mismanagement.

If you listen to Bush and his cronies, you can still hear them purporting to know what common Iraqi's are thinking, no matter what any realistic poll of their opinions might say. Once the 'faithful' know what God has said, woe be to anyone who tries to oppose them with anything as weak as reality supported by facts. To them, faith will always trump knowledge. Always.

[Eugene]

47. AP: Iran Holocaust Conference Draws Ire

Iran Holocaust Conference Draws Ire


Monday December 11, 2006 5:31 PM

AP Photo JRL153

By NASSER KARIMI

Associated Press Writer

TEHRAN, Iran (AP) - Iran on Monday hosted a conference gathering prominent Holocaust
deniers that it said would examine whether the World War II genocide of Jews took place,
drawing condemnation from Israel and Germany.

The conference was initiated by President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in an apparent attempt
to burnish his status at home and abroad as a tough opponent of Israel. The hard-liner
president has described the Holocaust as a "myth" and called for Israel to be wiped
off the map.

Organizers touted the conference as a scholarly gathering aimed at discussing the Holocaust
away from Western taboos, but the 67 participants from 30 countries were predominantly
Holocaust deniers. They included David Duke - the former Louisiana state representative
and Ku Klux Klan leader - and France's Robert Faurisson and Australian Frederick Toben,
who was jailed in Germany in 1999 for questioning the Holocaust.

-snip-

Full article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-6273333,00.html

[SKKY]

50. This guy is CooCoo for Coco puffs.