(Evangelical) Pastor (Paul Barnes) resigns over homosexuality

[deadparrot]

In a tearful videotaped message Sunday to his congregation, the senior pastor of a thriving evangelical megachurch in south metro Denver confessed to sexual relations with other men and announced he had voluntarily resigned his pulpit.

A month ago, the Rev. Paul Barnes of Grace Chapel in Doug las County preached to his 2,100-member congregation about integrity and grace in the aftermath of the Ted Haggard drugs-and-gay-sex scandal.

Now, the 54-year-old Barnes joins Haggard as a fallen evangelical minister who preached that homosexuality was a sin but grappled with a hidden life.

"I have struggled with homosexuality since I was a 5-year-old boy," Barnes said in the 32- minute video, which church leaders permitted The Denver Post to view. "... I can't tell you the number of nights I have cried myself to sleep, begging God to take this away."

http://www.denverpost.com/ci_4817067

[hippiechick]

1. Since he was a " 5 year old boy" ??

Well there goes the Fundie theory that it's a learned or indoctrinated behavior, eh?

[bianca2001]

4. Is this for real?

I'm picking up my teeth off the floor.......

[bianca2001]

35. ......now that I have picked up

my teeth off the floor, I'd really like to point out a few things:


!. The Roman Catholic Church demands CELIBACY for its priests,
yet that is NEVER mentioned by them in any scandal. Does not
molesting little boys (sometimes girls and women too) consist
in BREAKING that vow? That alone should get the culprit thrown
out of the priesthood.

The PEDOPHILE and other charges come under the juresdiction of
the LAW, State or Federal. They should be the ones to prosecute.

On the other hand, CONDOMS are NOT allowed even by people with
AIDS.


2. The OTHER XIAN SECTS:

They allow their clergy to marry and, if I am not mistaken, SEX
outside of the Marriage Vow is a SIN. Yet, that is hardly ever
mentioned, in spite of all the ridiculous CHASTITY drives etc for
unmarried people and teenagers.

Either Sex is a sin or not, regardless of the sexual orientation.


I know I am old and getting older, but all this talk of Heterosexual or
Homosexual SEX is a lot of baloney, in my book. Either they enforce this
thing or forget about it altogether. Adultery is adultery, it doesn't
matter with whom!!! If they ignore this, then they are hypocrits -
SURPRISE, SURPRISE.........


And then some people wonder why I DON'T want a PRIEST, MINISTER, RABBI
or IMAM around me, now or ever. I am a Reincarnationist and it is
my FERVENT hope that when I come back, the ABRAMIC religions will be no-
thing but very unhappy footnotes in the history books.

And, hopefully, UNHOLY wars, prejudices and hatred will have disappeared
with them - at least the most virulent.

[yellowcanine]

50. What is in the friggin water in Colorado that all of these righteous men are being afflicted with

the "gay disease" and hypocrisy also?

[sui generis]

56. Agenda Item #43

Put some gay in the water and see what happens.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

100. Snort!

Put some gay in the water...

LOL!

[Tight_rope]

114. LMBAO....Too funny!

[hvn_nbr_2]

13. He made the conscious, deliberate, sinful choice when he was 4.

I guess. :shrug:

On a side note, who's going to write the book, "Dick Cheney's Grandchild Has Two Mommies"?

[MidwestTransplant]

19. Too bad nobody was there to save him as a 4 YO

/sacrasm

[emlev]

104. Is sacrasm

the chasm between what you do in the sack and what you preach about from the pulpit?

Jes' wundrin'.

[MidwestTransplant]

124. Wow that's deep!

I am going to have to think on that a little longer :)

[emlev]

131. Glad you enjoyed it. I'm rather proud of it. EOM

[progressoid]

27. Well, that's easily explained...

Obviously when he was five he really pissed off God and God has been smiting him since.

[cboy4]

33. Yea, another fundie theory out the window. Are there

any left that haven't been disproved by reasonable adults?

[Hepburn]

68. First thought I had exactly....

...but HOW can 5 year old form thoughts like this????

[Jamastiene]

87. At first, it's not about sex.

I know I had innocent crushes on older women as early as 6 years of age. It wasn't about sex at that point, just an emotional thing. I don't think heterosexuality or homosexuality or bisexuality are only about sex. At least, I hope that is not all there is to heterosexuality. I know it's not all there is to homosexuality.

[NewJeffCT]

117. Subliminal gay messages in Disney movies

and Saturday morning cartoons. Certain kid's toys that this man obviously had would secretly whisper gay messages when one pulled their string, too.

It's insidious.

[mzmolly]

74. According to my father in law, all gays were molested as children.

:eyes:

[Ilsa]

80. My friend thinks all pedophile priests were molested

as children. She pretty much refuses to "entertain" the idea that maybe some priests, if they entered into it very young, were too secually immature to make such a decision and ended just repressing their sexuality versus coming to terms with celebacy after normal sexual development.

[mzmolly]

85. Must be a R/W talking point?

He went on to say that "making it o.k. keeps them from getting the help they need." *sigh* I think bigots need help, personally.

[Nevernose]

86. Statistically, gays ARE more likely to be molested as children

About 7 times more likely than hetero boys, in fact. There are a lot of possible theories behind the causation that go well beyond nature/nurture (transference on the part of the molester, apparent weakness on the part of the naturally homosexual victim, the ease and convenience of the sexual assault, etc.).

Personally, I think our biggest problem towards gay rights isn't so much about gay sex, it's about our attitude towards sex PERIOD. If we could learn, as a culture, that sex is normal, happy, healthy, good, and not that big of a deal -- as opposed to viewing it as a weapon, an advertising tool, dirty, shameful, secret, or wrong -- we'd ALL of us, gay or straight, be a lot better off. Why aren't there Puritans in Europe? Because they got smart, and shipped them all here.

[mzmolly]

93. I don't buy the statistics you mention, sorry.

I do agree that we have a society which has conflicting attitudes about sex.

Here is an interesting article on the subject if you're interested.

http://www.kalimunro.com/article_malesurvivors.html

Peace

[Seabiscuit]

96. No doubt he's been called "an idiot" many times.

[mzmolly]

103. Not generally to his face,

but yes, yes he has. *ehem* ;)

[IronLionZion]

116. According to a buddy of mine, ALL Catholic males have gotten molested.

You get baptized, then you get your first communion, then you get molested.... :eyes:

[mzmolly]

123. "Jesus," people are strange!

No pun intended. ;)

[heliarc]

143. Funny,

I characterize first communion as a sort of brainwashing... isn't that just a form of emotional, and spiritual molestation?

[Tom Joad]

91. It must have been sesame street. Burt and Ernie.

amazing there are *any* straight men. they have ruined a generation.

[mcg]

101. I've struggled with being left-handed since I was a little boy.

Ever since I can remember I've had a preference for using my left hand.

Oh God, please take this wicked left-handedness away from me!

[Wednesdays]

112. Actually...

your tongue-in-cheek statement was mainstream thought not too many centuries ago. Left-handed people were suspected as being in league with the Devil. In fact, the word "sinister" was from a word meaning "left handed."

I'm sure that future generations will view religious bashing of gays in the same light as superstitions about left-handedness.

[krispos42]

126. And 'ambidexterous' means 'two right hands' n/t

[Tanner_B.]

141. Yep

Actually, this goes all the way back to the twentieth century. I have an aunt who's still living who was beaten by the nuns until she started using her right hand.

[mcg]

144. There's still remants in language,

left-handed
clumsy, awkward, unlucky, insincere, sinister, malicious; e.g. left-handed compliment
insincere or ambiguous, e.g.left-handed praise

People shake hands with their right hands, I'm so adjusted to that that
shaking hands with my oldest brother, who is left-handed, with my left
hand felt strange.

It's not just in our culture, it's also in Indian culture, I've noticed a
right-handed bias in yoga, one instance involving a meditation technique
and another (perhaps) involving hatha yoga (you're supposed to lay on
your right side after savasana).

I initially got poor grades in writing (either failed or got a D),
no consideration was given to the fact that left-handers have to
push the pencil forward or contort the hand to write. My teacher
didn't like that I was using my left hand.

This article
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1768179.stm
mentions scizzors and where to sit, so true.
I'll often try to sit at the left side of a table
when eating with others so as not to bump elbows.

wikipedia article
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-handed#Social_stigma_and_repression_of_left-handedness
mentions the French word gauche and words in other languages.
Reading this article makes me realize there was more discrimination
than I thought. It's not something I really have wanted to look into.

[Tansy_Gold]

2. ". . . begging God to take this away."

Did this self-righteous hypocrite ever consider that his "god" made him this way on purpose? That the way he was made was okay with god and ought to be okay with mere mortals, too?

Oh, if only these people could even begin to understand what a wonderful gift it is to be able to love rather than hate.

Tansy Gold

[Kellyiswise]

5. It is a true gift to be able to "love" instead of "hate."

The doctrine of Jesus Christ that is preached by the modern evangelicals in this country is one of use God as a Santa Claus...gimmie,gimmie what I ask for (or can take from others) in the name of Jesus and hate everyone and anything that does not line up with your religious beliefs.

[badgerpup]

11. Santa Claus- or a big club with a nail in it...

...or a trained attack dog, or not-too-bright but devoted BIG (as in very large and strong) brother who'll beat the crap out of anyone who looks at them wrong...

IMHO, a lot of these xtians don't treat their god with very much respect.

[krispos42]

22. Kinda like this?

[Tight_rope]

121. LMBAO....Too funny! But so true!

[Lipton64]

97. Very sad and true:

"IMHO, a lot of these xtians don't treat their god with very much respect."


I went to church as a kid and teen and nearly half of the adult Sunday-school teachers, ushers, and other prominent non-deacons in the church(you can't be divorced and be a deacon) had already been divorced. If you read the law of Moses, this isn't permissable. They're supposed to live on the outskirts of society. That's assuming they would even believe what they preach in the first place and instead of hypocritically applying it to me maybe they should look at themselves in the mirror first.....

[bluedeminredstate]

122. I went to Church and Youth group

from age 8 to 14. It was a Congregationalist Church - normally a middle-of-the-road kinda place, but it was infiltrated by a group of fundies a few years after I started going. It had been a safe haven for me as my parents were going through a bitter divorce, and I felt like I had a safe place to hang out and be around good people.

When the nutjobs took over it became all about SIN, HELL, repenting, not attracting BAD, BAD boys by being GIRLS and wearing makeup and "provocative" clothing. The final straw for me was when the Pastor of the Church told me that my parents were going to hell because of their divorce. They had no chance of getting to heaven because they were ADULTERS forever.
The nights I lay in my bed worrying about my parents' souls were agonizing, because I tried in vain to figure out a way to save them.

Cut to twenty years later and I found out from a friend who had been in the youth group with me and still attended that Church of Hate, that the Minister who told me my parents would suffer eternal damnation was caught getting blow jobs from one of the congregants. He was asked to leave. I took such pleasure from that story - way more than I should have, but the power
these know-it-alls-for-Jesus have over vulnerable people is staggering.

The batshit insane, blowjob-getting, kid-scaring, Bible-thumping, ADULTERER left and half the congregation went with him. They could forgive him a few hummers for Christ, but Bill Clinton was not accorded that forgiveness. Imagine that.

[calimary]

20. Welcome to DU! A truly Christian message - in every sense of the

Root Word.

DAMN! Such a wonderful thought, especially now - preaching love rather than hate. Love and acceptance and tolerance instead of hate and judgmentalism and condemnation. If more of our religious leaders REALLY did that, I doubt we'd have the suffering, strife, war, and chaos in the world - that we have to endure now. I don't remember anything about Christ advocating hate or intolerance. Then again, I can understand how easy it is to fall into hatred, every time I remember how much I hate bush/cheney and company.

[sutz12]

25. If only these people could listen to themselves...

Their hypocrisy would just melt away. I guess it isn't easy to be one of God's chosen, eh?

[knitter4democracy]

41. He did. He just didn't want it.

It's the concept that we all have our own "crosses" to bear, i.e. difficult trials or temptations we have to deal with on a regular basis. He probably felt that his homosexuality was his cross to bear, and he was asking God to take it away because it was too much.

It's sad, though, since he obviously felt he was born evil and sinful. How can he think that he was "a sinner in the hands of an angry God" at the age of five? He didn't understand that God doesn't do that to people--make them evil before even having a chance to deal with it.

I don't understand the issue against homosexuality, personally, and I never have, not even when I was an evangelical. If a couple wants to get married, then marry them. The rest is between them and really in God's hands anyway. Let's not encourage people to run around in secret and then flog themselves afterwards for being who they are.

[napi21]

3. Hmmm, I wonder how many more hypocrits there are as

church leaders who will fall in disgrace? Ireally don't carewhat their sexxual preferences are, but they all preach on the evils of homosexuality to their congregations, and then go home and..................

[jarab]

15. Damn the hypocritical lip worshipers.

Generally I think it best to stay mum when there's nothing good to relate about another. Instances like this one are worthy of exception to that maxim.
...O...

[Jack from Charlotte]

26. It'd be great if someone would interview these preachers and ask them.......

if they, or any other preachers they know of are gay. I'd bet the interviewer would be able to tell by the response what the answer is.

[KurtNYC]

79. I think self-hatred leads a lot of people to the Right wing

seriously. It is like some form of Stockholm Syndrome. There is a an ancient saying: "The oppressed oppress"

I agree with you and other's that this guy is one more hypocrit but the self-hatred thing is key. If these people hate themselves then OF COURSE they hate you and me.

[Jacobin]

6. never ending supply of hypocrites

They should just install bath houses in the mega churches and stop with the gay bashing

[kineneb]

7. "and another one bites the dust" n/t

[sinkingfeeling]

8. Very interesting...admits to have 'struggled' since age 5, but doesn't belive that people are born

homosexual.

[Kber]

119. Well, he only started struggling at age 5

at age 4 he was still straight?

[truthisfreedom]

9. Wow. It's gotta be tough to be a member of an Evangelical church these days.

Too many "reality" distractions.

[Joey Liberal]

10. Another evangelical hypocrite bites the dust...................n/t

[itsmesgd]

12. another one????

these guys are making the priests look like saints. (kidding)

[Infomaniac]

14. You would think

all this personal "struggle" would engender more compassion for humans. Or a better understanding of the biblical injunction to love one's neighbor as thyself. I do not understand people who accept Christ but not his gospel of love.

[sutz12]

28. Easy answer...

They hate themselves.....therefore, they can hate others.

Oh, didn't Christ say, "Hate thy neighbor as you hate yourselves"? It must have been misinterpreted.

[TomInTib]

Like Haggard, he started his church in his basement while living in his closet.

K&R

[sui generis]

57. you forgot while sneaking in and out the back door

ba dum tish

:rofl: :hide:

oh man I'm well on my way to hell.

[TomInTib]

59. Yep, straight to hell with you, s g.

Damn that was funny

[Lisa0825]

16. The more of them outted, the better...

Maybe some of their congregations will learn something from it... maybe as they struggle with the truth about someone they highly respected, they'll come to realize that it's not the evil they believed it was. I think it is great that he says he has struggled since age 5. He is a great example that it is NOT a choice.

What I'd love to see is for one of them to come out and NOT resign, and fight for their position.

[Whoa_Nelly]

17. Since he was 5? Get ready for another round of Blamo-O

Soon to be in the news: Barnes reveals who put him on the path to sin :P

[populistdriven]

31. Must have been Nickelodeon!

[Ex Lion Tamer]

40. Of course not: It was the Tele-Tubbies.

Falwell is vindicated.

[closeupready]

18. OMG - it just never ends.

eom

[The Stranger]

21. It's raining gay megachurch pastors!

[krispos42]

23. Hallelujah!

[closeupready]

32. A-Men!

:D

[Duncan Grant]

84. LOL!

And another:
So many gay megachurch pastors -- so little time!
How can I choose? :evilgrin:

[rodeodance]

24. gee, you would think the concregation would get the message---??

[cboy4]

29. He needed to resign because he's a fricken hypocrite, not because

he's gay.

Sadly, someone just as judgmental will be elevated to take his place.

[melnjones]

30. God bless him...

I really feel for the guy. He was not one out there preaching against homosexuality for political motives like Haggard was. This is yet another reason I'm staying in the (somewhat) conservative Christian community as a minister. I could leave, I could go out and find any number of communities that are open and affirming, but there are just way too many people living in the closet HERE that I feel called to fight for. Even if it makes me unpopular where I am here...and it usually does. Poor guy.

[cboy4]

36. Well, preaching against homosexuality for any reason, political

or not, is terribly damaging because it furthers the vicious cycle of homophobia which is rampant in the church community.

I wonder if any gay teenagers who this guy preached to killed themselves because he made them feel so guilty?

Having said that, I am extremely grateful there are ministers like yourself who obviously care about ALL human beings.

And it's especially admirable that you're willing to do gay outreach work, and accept the unpopular consequences. :)

[melnjones]

39. *sigh of relief*

:-)

Thanks. I don't consider myself an Evangelical...we come out of the Wesleyan holiness movement, to be more exact, but that doesn't make a whole hell of a lot of difference on this issue. I stand firmly in the gray area on the Biblical "rightness" or "wrongness" of homosexuality, as the Bible does not even address homosexuality as we know it today. I think the broader Christian community is looking at the whole issue in the wrong way, and I really hope to effect some change in this area within my faith tradition, even if it's nothing more than building a sense of empathy that right now is horribly lacking. I'm a seminary student and am looking into writing a masters thesis on homosexuality and the church to look at and deal with some of the horrible logical errors that the conservative Christian community is making in how they are handling it. There is a lot that they can do even WITHOUT having to change their view that homosexuality is not biblically sound- I do strongly support freedom of religion, even in this case, but there are far far better, healthier ways they can address what they see as a "problem" than what they are doing, and it starts with not alienating the church traditions that ARE open and affirming. Anywho, stepping off my soapbox now.:-) The good news is that more and more I am seeing even friends of mine begin to look at the issue differently. I had a friend shock the crap out of me last week when we were talking about this subject and he said to me, quite plainly, that he's realized homosexuality is not a sin. Don't give up on us yet, guys...one of these days the Christian community may just shock you:-)

[cboy4]

45. Well, hearing from people like you always allows me to postpone

giving up completely on the Christian community.

And best of luck on your masters!!

[brer cat]

77. Please, please, please keep posting on DU

We need to progress along with your masters thesis. I think it would be informative for all of us. I came to accept gays/lesbians many decades ago all alone...outside my church and against most of my family & friends. I would so love to share your search through the "rightness" and "wrongness", and I think it would benefit our non-church members to see the thinking process at work.

[donco6]

133. How about starting with this?

I won't come into your church and make you treat gays humanely if you won't go into the government and make them treat me abominably.

Deal?

[melnjones]

135. Um, those are some undeserved harsh words, my friend...

First of all, you don't know anything about me or my background that makes the issue of homosexuality something which I would be very passionate about and concerned with. For all you know, I could be gay myself. It would serve you well not to judge.

Second, no one forces me to treat gays humanely. It would never cross my mind to do otherwise.

Third, if I do anything regarding the government, it would be to actively push for equal rights for all people regardless of sexual orientation. I do not and would not support any governmental candidate who is for a "gay marriage ban."

Fourth, yes, I'm a Christian.

How 'bout I continue doing what I'm doing, and you not put the negative "christian" stereotype on me. I can assure you it doesn't fit.

Deal?

[donco6]

138. I think my original deal is quite fair.

But if you can't agree to it, I guess that answers my question.

[melnjones]

139. on second thought...

I'm gonna edit this post and send you a PM.

[BR_Parkway]

46. But how many wasted lives because of his message?

Said it before, I'm going to keep on saying it. When these "straight" men are continuing to focus on things involving gay sex WAY more than most gay men I know that have healthy sexual appetites - they're wrestling with their own acceptance issues.

Besides the "fact" that he must have made the "choice" to be sinful at 5 years old, apparently God didn't answer his prayers for the past 49 years to "pray the gay away". What's that thing they were always teaching in Sunday school about how God answered all prayers, just not always the way you'd think they should be answered? What a shame that this man has lived his entire life devoid of true happiness because he couldn't accept who he was, and now what he's put his family and congregation through.

But I'll tell you who I really feel sorry for in this situation. Some nameless, faceless teenager who faced their own struggle - and after years of hearing from their church leaders that God couldn't possibly love them the way that they are - took their life one night. Leaving behind more shattered families and wasted potential. One of the thousands of kids last year who killed themselves. Very nearly me and too many other's that I know now. It's past time to put an end to this faith based bigotry. These sham preachers putting themselves up on pedestals for power and money and influence and adulation.

According to a statement made after the Ted Haggard outing by the Arlington Group (70+ powerful church groups who want to run our government - most of them in the "It's OK to hate gays for profit and political influence category) they know of some other preachers who are about to be outed as well. They also knew about Haggard a good five months before but didn't want to do anything that might negatively impact the election. And years of knowledge of Mark Foley. Yup, the same folks continually beating your ears about how they are looking out for your family and how they are the national keepers of America's family values.

And for years accused us of having some overriding Gay Agenda beyond being treated the same as any other American. Well, we've got one now. We've gotten tired of the bashing, of being your little political football and prime fundraiser. We're on a mission, as it were, to expose your constant hypocrisy. And you gave us that mission. Not to organize boycotts of Sears or Ford because they give some funding to one of your pet projects the way you do when those same corporations even think about funding something gay. Nope, it's much more basic. If you've ever so much as flirted with another man while preaching against us - plan on seeing him on the national TV, in the papers and anywhere else we can put his smiling face. Maybe we can do our own "Got Hypocrisy" campaign and put their faces on the milk cartons so every school child in America can see you for what you really are. The Pharisees Jesus Himself warned us about. I, for one, am ready to see your sanctimonious butts get thrown out of the temple once again.

[janetle]

66. Very well said!

[Cronus Protagonist]

108. The Complete Unabridged copy of The Gay Agenda is HERE

http://cronus.com/agenda

*Warning, not for the weak-willed. You could be turned gay just by reading it. You have been warned.

[melnjones]

136. And...that's now saved in my favorites.

Thanks for sharing. I had a classmate, a friend actually, mention something about the "homosexual agenda" in class the other day. You could just about see the steam come out of my ears. We had a little talky-talk after class about some of the reasons why that is such a ridiculous term :-)

[JerseygirlCT]

81. I understand what you're saying

And it sounds like you've picked a ministry to a group sorely in need of it.

[valerief]

34. Videotape message? What a hypocritical coward. First he

tells people it's a sin, while "sinning" himself. I can appreciate being in the closet, but not when you're literally on the pulpit damning people to hell for doing the same damn thing. And then he's such a wussburger, he won't even face the crowd?

Cry me a river, Rev.

:nopity:

[Ezlivin]

43. Videotape message now, uncut DVD out later

It's the director's cut so it's got a lot of footage that didn't make it in the videotape. Plus there's a commentary by the pastor and some outtakes.

Order now and you'll get the uncut DVD plus a pair of genital cuffs for only $19.95.

[valerief]

60. You're deliciously evil! nt

[lala_rawraw]

37. my god, how can so many of these guys hate themselves so

much that they would be willing to attack others for what they themselves are? argh, it makes me sick. coward could not even come into the church to apologize in person?

[arikara]

38. Should 5 year old kids have that much awareness of their sexuality?

At 5 all I remember is starting school and the anticipations and fears around that. The last thing I was thinking about was whether I was bi, gay or straight. I didn't know what that was, and shouldn't have at that age.

I strongly suspect that this unfortunate man, like many or most of the other prominent religious nuts, was abused as a child. Is there any other reason he would have such awareness of his sexuality at that young age?

I wish him peace. And I do hope he can come to terms with his past and not perpetuate the abuse.

[Fierce]

42. Kids know.

Kindergartners sometimes have "boyfriends" or "girlfriends" and can tease each other about such things, or actually have true, strong feelings for another child that adults might belittle as "puppy love" or something "weird." Kids won't call it bi, gay or straight, but they are capable of strong feelings just like teens and adults.

[Jokinomx]

61. I disagree with you...

He didn't have to be abused to be aware of his sexuality at that young age. Just because you weren't doesn't mean everyone is like you. Some children are very aware of their sexuality at very young ages and of course some are not. Don't assume that you have to be molested to be aware.... that is just not correct.

I do agree with you that I hope he finds peace somehow.... I know it took me until adulthood to accept my own sexuality. Mostly because of the same reasons he had. My father made it very clear to me how he felt about fags. The difference is that I ended that way of thinking with my own children. They have been taught to accept people for who they are and not because they are gay or not.

:toast:

[AnneD]

125. I shocked some folks at work this weekend-

guess I'll shock a few here too. I have been a School Nurse for 13 years now and have dealt with just about every ethnicity and kids from more countries than you can shake a stick at. In all my experiences-I have come across those children that are gay-as young as kinder. I am not surprised by the confession. I keep my mouth shut when I see these things-but I have been very accurate in this.

I was trying to explain this to some other Nurses and the small hospital I work at on occasion. It is hard for some folks to accept. The more I see, the more I am certain-people are who they are. Environment can affect some things-but some things are wired in. The little kids don't have a name for it yet-but they are wired the way they are wired. It can't be changed, driven out, over ridden, or beaten out of them. THEY ARE WHAT THEY ARE.

This causes lots of problems for the kids when they are in MS and HS. They finally start figuring it out. Lots of kids are beaten up, thrown out, run away, or commit suicide during this period of time. Every other week my daughter comes homes telling me that So and So came out to their folks and were kicked out. There is a patchwork of folks and friends that take these kids in until they can work things out, but it cruel and unfair to dump these kids. They are still just kids.

Well, I'll get off my soap box and conclude my :rant: If I could teach these kids one thing, it would be that they above all, need to be honest with themselves.

[Jokinomx]

127. Yes...I agree AnneD and thanks for your imput

Our society evolves slowly. With most religions condemning such behavior it will take a long time in this country to get past this issue. Hopefully, as more countries accept homosexuality as normal for some people and the society doesn't get smited by God, more people in our country will rise above the biased behavior and live more like the Christ they follow.

:toast:

[donco6]

134. It wasn't sexuality I was aware of.

But I was attracted to men at that age. I remember being terribly attracted to my elementary school principal in kindergarten. I would follow his every move when he came into the room, and look forward to his visits. This went on for years and years. Eventually sexuality came into the picture, but not until much later.

I was not abused as a child.

[melnjones]

140. I agree with the others here...

And I wonder too if for kids who are straight, they just don't think about it in the same terms because they are "normal" (society's word, not mine) whereas kids who are gay are more acutely aware that they are different from those around them. Perhaps it's similar to not really identifying your own race until you are in a setting where there are other races as well?

[xchrom]

44. what i think is a shame is that this guy is so invested

in his literal view of the bible and the faith -- that even after this he won't be able to come to love himself for the natural and beloved by god man that he is.

he was made perfectly -- it's only his mind and our culture that has warped him and caused him such pain.

[Acadia Blue]

47. Its because they can not reason for themselves. They blindly trust

anyone in authority who tells them what the bible means. They just can't really think and reason on their own.

[Jokinomx]

62. Yep.... I completely agree...

From the time they are able to understand english our children are told the answers before they can even ask the questions. Thus this leaves many people unable to ask questions. They accept everything that the person in authority says ... blindly. It is a sad thing watch. The indoctrination of countless generations by these so called religous leaders forcing their opinions on those that can't think for themselves. It is a form of child abuse in my opinion.

[VegasWolf]

63. If they could, they would be leaders not followers. The majority of the

people will always be followers. Ergo, there will always be a religion of some sort.

[Tight_rope]

48. Good news sure takes forever to get around!

[ladywnch]

49. 'feelings of guilt and self loathing.......'

is this really what people are supposed to get from religion?

He couldn't be counseled from feeling this way;being gay, couldn't pray his way out of feeling this way and yet doesn't believe people are born this way. He was raised in a strict moral family and still is gay. I just don't understand how anyone can so cling to something (religion) that makes them feel unworthy and self hating as being something worth clinging to.

I'm sorry, but I think they're all just a little crazy. It really is quite sad.

[slackmaster]

51. It's a shame what religious guilt does to some people

Mr. Barnes could have had a less conflicted, perhaps happier life.

[RamboLiberal]

52. I have mixed feelings about the outings

and hope those doing the outing are careful. Granted many of these preachers who are gay but hide it are hypocrites, but then we recently had a very tragic case in Pittsburgh area.

A local radio talk host and expose TV reporter(Marty Griffin) did some sensational promos alleging possible criminal acts and acts against his churches teaching by a local pastor who apparently was gay. The pastor was beloved by his parishioners and did not speak out against gays. The reporter was begged not to run the report. It never aired because the station got the news that a suicide note had been found. Later that night the pastor was found dead by drug ingestion in a motel room.

The members of his church are mourning him and apparently he was a good man.

I'm sorry those are so many Christian leaders and so many Repukes who have demonized gays to fulfill their own sick agendas. I have no problem when someone like Haggard is exposed as a hypocrite. I just hope those doing the exposing use caution.

I would hope that those in the clergy who are gay and are struggling who have the courage to admit their sexuality. It's time those in the Christian community and other Fundamentalist religions wake up to the truth.

In our local case I'm rooting for the members of Rev. Dugan's church to sue the pants off Marty Griffin and KDKA News. This reporter was driven out of Dallas by his shoddy reporting that cost his station millions.

[Jokinomx]

65. That is a sad story....

You make a very valid point. So many of our society understand completely this fear of exposure. Many are good people that because of our society have chosen to keep their sexuality to themselves and they should be able to have the right to do so.

Other than those that are hypocrits. These people should be exposed for who they really are.

:toast:

[cboy4]

69. I'm not sure I follow what the reporter did wrong. I understand he

was going to do a story on possible criminal acts, but how did the pastor being gay have to do with the alleged crimes?

And why was the gay aspect mentioned in the promos?

[RamboLiberal]

71. Here's the story - station will not say what they had

<snip>

Promos for the report were broadcast for several days last week. They showed Griffin confronting Dugan about his alleged visits to an adult bookstore. It was unclear from the promos what other details the report would reveal.

During the 11 p.m. news Thursday, Griffin said his investigation "uncovered illicit, possibly illegal, activity by a local minister, activities which, at the very least, violated the rules of his denomination."

It's the use of key words -- possibly illegal, at the very least -- that call into question whether the report was worth doing in the first place. If the best Griffin could dig up was a trip to an adult bookstore (not illegal) and violation of church rules, then there's not much in it to serve the public interest. It comes off looking like another "gotcha"-style story designed for no benefit except the TV station's ratings.

What aired Thursday did not mention Dugan by name; he wasn't shown on screen. His church and denomination were not named. But Dugan was pictured in promos that aired for several days earlier on KDKA. The damage was done.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06310/735930-237.stm

[cboy4]

76. Yea, that's bullshit going after someone like that for a victim-less

act, if in fact the minister was fooling around in the arcade booths, or whatever.

I thought you meant the station "outed" him, which really would have been beyond outrageous.

What they did was bad enough.

But sadly, these types of so-called "gotcha" stories happen to people from all walks of life in every television market.

[ecstatic]

145. Call me cold hearted but...

He is part of the problem. If fear of exposure drove him to the point of suicide--which is allegedly a top of the line sin in Christianity--then one can only imagine the hypocritical message he was doling out to others. Who knows how many suicides he himself caused.

And was he married and cheating on his wife? Sorry, I have no sympathy for him. People get busted for all sorts of things every day, things that lead to serious prison time. Yet, somehow they manage to face the consequences like a man/woman.

[Irreverend IX]

53. He confessed to sexual relations with other men...

Including Ted Haggard, I wonder?

[ItsTheMediaStupid]

54. It makes me wonder how many gay-hating evangelicals are gay

It would explain why they are so obsessed with homosexuality.

[janetle]

67. Two men left my church.

I am an Episcopalian. Two long time friends of mine--both in heterosexual marriages--left my church over the consecration of a gay Bishop. Both of these men had been devoted church members but for some inexplicable reason, they could not handle this one issue and fled to fundie churches. In my heart, I have believed for quite some time that both men are gay and are grappling with self-loathing. They always seemed so filled with angst. Somehow, they deal with it by joining this chorus of anti-gay religion.

[Pacifist Patriot]

55. Just once I want an Evangelical Pastor to....

announce he's homosexual and RETAIN his pastorate. Please God, give me one who will stand up and say, "fuck it, this is who I am."

It breaks my heart that these men have been torn apart their entire lives because of bullshit beliefs that rip at their essential Selfhood. Smack me down for feeling compassion for them, but they are victims every bit as much as the poor souls they indoctrinate with their idiotic preaching.

I'm so sick of this! Be a man and accept who you are. This sniveling is ridiculous.

[Sapere aude]

70. I'm with you on this. He could accept himself but he chooses to accept

this bull shit religion instead.


Man religious people really screw themselves up sometimes. I really believe it is all superstition and a mental illness. Just see what it does to people!

[GenDem]

73. That might be what they would like to do,

but their flocks would never accept a gay pastor. These people are not tolerent..any pastor that comes out of the closet (and doesn't want to repent) will be out of a job and out of the church.

[Lisa0825]

82. Just what I said above.

Let one come out and challenge his congregation who loved and respected him to CONTINUE to love and respect him.

[Name removed]

58. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[earth mom]

64. Makes ya wonder how many more fundies are hiding in the closet.

Is this what the evangelical fundie movement is all about? :eyes:

[intheflow]

90. If Dobson comes out, it'll be a Front Range Triple Header.

[AtomicKitten]

72. those that quack the loudest are the deepest in the closet themselves

come out, come out, wherever you are

[opihimoimoi]

75. Are they ALL like that??? OMG.....

[superconnected]

78. I feel sorry for the gays...

I mean, if they outed themselves as flute players and I was a flute player, I'd feel pretty lously. It would be like, F*! Get out of my social group!

So I feel bad for the gays about this. Like they really need the fundie nazis claiming to be gay. And yeah, I know these nazis probably are gay, but their kinda gay just aint healthy. I mean not when it includes persecution of gays along the way...

Imagine someone who hates flutists outing themselves as a flute player...

[youthere]

98. You know..this one time in band camp...

Don't hurt me! I had to do it!:hide:

[brentspeak]

83. Like most other posters on this board, I've never heard of the guy until now

[IndianaGreen]

88. I don't feel sorry for this guy and his pathetic double-life

If he hadn't preached against gays, I would have found a shred of compassion for him and told him to quit torturing himself about being the gay man that G-d made him to be. As it is, he can join Ted Haggard at whatever brainwashing session he is undergoing to repress what is at the core of his being.

This is what happens when irrational beliefs are allowed to trump reason. Being gay or lesbian is a choice of nature, not a personal choice!

[Bitwit1234]

89. Those that do protest toooo darn much

Notice...those that rant and rave and protest so much about something usually end up being the one who is involved in what they protest about. Wonder why all of a sudden Mitt Romney is flaying around about gays and gay marriage.

[Infinite Hope]

92. Self-Loathing.

No matter how much he prayed, God didn't take it away because it's okay. It seems like pastors also are more prone to being gay because they're self-loathing and try to fix themselves

[melnjones]

102. Um, do you realize what you just said?

self-loathing people are not more likely to be gay, and a vast majority of health professionals would agree that being gay is not an illness, which is what your last sentence implied. I don't think that's what yuou meant to say.

[Infinite Hope]

94. I wonder how long he and Haggard had an affair...

:sarcasm:

[Lipton64]

95. I've heard stats from far-right kook anti-gay groups that over 50% of molesters are gay......

of course where they got those stats I don't know. I just googled it and this right-wing propaganda was all I could come up with:

http://www.familyresearchinst.org/FRI_EduPamphlet2.html


It seems as if some of on the far-right are on a Kamikaze sort of mission to destroy all gay men to make them look like child predators. Of sane people know this to be a distortion by the far-right anti-gay hysteria.

A local pastor in my area came out a few years ago and resigned his position as pastor because of his "unconfessed homosexuality." I wonder how many other preachers are suppressing their homosexuality.....

[jwdeviant]

107. Oh, that crap.

That's courtesy of Anita Bryant's bogus "Save the Children" foundation which was helped along by the Dishonorable Jerry Falwell.

It didn't help that the early gay rights movement included NAMBLA in its membership either.

For fundies, if a man molests a boy it's proof positive that the man is gay, thus these idiotic stats.

[WindRavenX]

99. hahahahaah

Oh,I love this.

[jgraz]

105. I'm just happy all my gay friends didn't turn out to be preachers

Seriously, are ANY of these guys straight?

[eridani]

106. These guys could have joined one of the many gay Christian--

--support groups, met another Christian gay, settled down and started to fight for marriage equality. Looks like they prefer the money and power that pastors of megachurches have available to them.

[bianca2001]

109. In cases like this

many people are feeling sorry for the man. They are wrong. Their
sympathy sould be for the wife and children. As a woman, I can think
of no greater betrayal from the man I love than to marry me for an
ulterior motive: to pass as a heterosexual. First time I heard of some-
thing like this was about 40 years ago and the poor girl was totally
devastated. So everytime I hear of a married man coming out of the closet, my first worry is the wife.

Second, any children of this "fake" marriage. In most cases, like this, they are "devout" Xians. Especially if they are school-age, these kids
are going to REALLY suffer! Does anyone remember how cruel other kids
can be?

No matter how you look at it, the families are the ones who will feel
the repercussions for all their lives. And I am not even going to
bother going into this in furthear details.

Use your imagination!

[Wednesdays]

110. He who lives by the sword...

The only churches that are scandalized by this sort of revelation are the ones vehemently condemning homosexuality. If the minister in our church admitted he was gay, the news would be greeted with a collective yawn.

[bianca2001]

111. More to come?

The Denver Post article states:


".......The caller had overheard a conversation in which someone men-
tioned "blowing the whistle" on evangelical preachers engaged in homo-
sexuality, including Barnes........"


It sounds like a tsunami is in the making.

[smoogatz]

113. Too bad he's quitting.

He actually sounds like kind of a decent guy. The fundies could learn a few things from the gay/lesbian folks in their midst--unfortunately, they're not much interested in actual learning.

[Tight_rope]

115. I must ask...Would Barnes have come out if he was not going to be exposed?

Something tells me that he would not have ever come out of the closet if there was not a threat that he was going to be exposed soon. Only thing he did was beat them to the punch, so that he would be in control of the spin.

I don't know...but it seems to me that all of the ministers, priest,etc. are either gay or have gay tendencies. I have a very good friend that I met 14 years ago. We use to party together. He was gay. Just last month I met his wife when he came back to Houston to be ordained at a minister. Yes, she knows about his past. It's hard to believe that he choose to marry a women (and a beautiful one at that). In his case, I'm not sure he was born gay. I know that his family doctor use to molest him as a little boy. Till this day I don't believe he ever told his family. I know that his mother died 3 years ago and I don't believe that she know that he was gay or had been molested by the family doctor.

[ecstatic]

146. I think so too

As far as most ministers being gay or bisexual. When it comes to dating, I really am skeptical about dealing with men with extensive ties to the church. I know of several guys who are living deep double lives, many of them think they're straight as long as they deal with transsexuals only.

[jordi_fanclub]

118. Yahoo! message boards shootdown...

Seems the GOP propaganda machine is running out of money...

"Yahoo! News is working on new ways for readers to comment on the news and participate in a discussion around it. While we work on our new community features, the message boards that have been linked from individual news articles will be taken offline Dec. 19.

As currently set up, the Yahoo! News message boards allow a small number of vocal users to dominate the discussion. In addition, related discussions from similar news articles are not easily linked. Over the next few months, we plan to offer new discussion forums based on topics in the news and incorporating the latest features to foster a better discussion for all of our readers."

(Sorry for the "spam" but I can't start a new thread, so if someone want to do that...)

[superconnected]

128. Hey, thanks for posting that!

[Rex]

120. I bet he voted repuke in November.

Cry me a fucking river. :eyes:

[TroglodyteScholar]

129. These guys are ALL gay.

They hate themselves, so they do their best to punish the rest of us.

If only someone had taught them there was NOTHING WRONG with being gay. If only they had not learned about Christianity from other gay self-haters promoting bigotry over acceptance.

When will it ever stop?

[Bushies gotta go]

130. I'm just shocked. Say it ain't so! n/t

[zara]

132. Dobson next?

We can hope X ^O^ X

[JoFerret]

137. Ralph Reed

.

[kestrel91316]

142. Do these people think hypocrisy is one of the ten commandments????