War on Christmas over At Sea-Tac Airport..Rabbi Gives In..

[rsmith6621]

Christmas trees going back up at Sea-Tac Airport




Story Updated: Dec 11, 2006 at 8:37 PM PST
By Associated Press
SEATAC - The Christmas trees are back at Sea-Tac Airport.

Port of Seattle were reinstalling the trees Monday evening, after having removed them late last week under threat of a federal lawsuit to be filed by the Central Organization for Jewish Education Lubavitch.

In a news release Monday, the Port of Seattle said their officials received word from Rabbi Elazar Bogomilsky late Monday afternoon that his organization will not file a lawsuit at this time over the placement of a menorah at the airport.

Officials say with the agreement, they will replace the trees.

http://www.komotv.com/news/4888441.html

[CoffeeCat]

1. Until the next lawsuit comes along...

...the trees will remain up!

LOL!

It'll be fun watching the same people put back these trees--then put them
back in the boxes when the next lawsuit comes along (probably before the
end of the week!).

[everythingsxen]

2. The Rabbi gave in because..

he saw what the media was doing. It was turning it into a blame the Jews scenario. What I find interesting about the stories covering this was that most of them didn't mention that this had been going on for a while, because last year there had been some menorahs, this year none. The media is rapidly catching on to the growing shift in social climate, chiefly: Blame the Jews.

[rsmith6621]

3. I Worked at SeaTac last year....

And saw no Menorahs anywhere and I walked almost every inch of the Airport....there have been so many false reports on this story.

[Solo_in_MD]

5. The threat of suit was bogus

since SCOTUS held the a holiday tree is not religious.

From what I am hearing, SEATAC is taking fire for this, not haredi for this

[Miss Chybil]

7. That makes the most sense.

I was wondering about the trees. I mean, I have a tree. I'm an agnostic. I grew up with Christmas and I'll always do Christmas, but for me, and my family, it is not a worshipful event, it's a traditional event.

[CTyankee]

70. My Jewish friends do not accept that argument when it comes to

xmas trees on public grounds supported by taxpayer dollars. The Christmas tree is forever wedded to Christmas, no matter its pagan provenance. It is a sign of the cultural hegemony of Christianity to many Jews. That's fine in private areas; the issue is public sponsorship of the trees.

[superconnected]

106. wow quad post

.

[Name removed]

Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[superconnected]

107. my cable connection sucks

.

[superconnected]

108. I don't even rember hitting enter on it a 2nd time...

.

[NashVegas]

24. SCOTUS May Say One Thing

But the Christian warriors fighting for Christmas say something completely different.

Call a tree at a state capitol a "Holiday Tree" and watch the ensuing howls by the Fundies driving the media stories.

[Me-Oh-My]

117. I tell the Fundies that they have a war on Yule.

I tell the Fundies that they have a war on Yule.

[trogdor]

42. Unavailable for comment.

[Behind the Aegis]

4. Guess it is better than dead Jews or burned out synagogues.

[Suich]

6. Oh for Pete's sake!!!

I bet someone else threatens another lawsuit by the time I get up in the morning!

:hi:

[bperci108]

8. Yeah...probably one filed by Bill O'Liely.

He needs the manufactured controversy to help his flagging ratings.

:rofl:

[Erika]

9. The "Christians" bullied the Jews into submission

Trees but no menorah's. There is religious freedom, for Xtians only. If you're not a fundie, you have no religious freedom in this country. Just keep your mouth shut for all the good it will do you.

[Solo_in_MD]

11. Per SCOTUS, the tree is not a religous symbol

A menorah is considered the equivalent of a nativity scene. Many places do both, and I think its a good thing most of the time. Note that the fundies are by and large backing the rabbi here and blaming SEATAC

[Erika]

12. A Xmas tree is not a religious symbol?

Sure. OK. We all know that.

[slackmaster]

34. I know many Jewish and Atheist families that display Christmas trees

Christmas itself is a religious holiday only to those who actively practice Christianity.

In the memorable words of the Peanuts comic strip character Lucy, "It's run by a big eastern syndicate."

[Malikshah]

49. Well....it's pagan-- and that *is* a religion

[Megahurtz]

53. Uhhhhh.....most people know that.

Where have you been?

[rodeodance]

28. over time the tree has evoled to a secular status for many

[Xithras]

44. Xactly. I know lots of people who would never step foot in a church...

...but they still put up a tree every December so that Santa has something to put the presents under. Lots of completely secular people celebrate Christmas for its traditions of giving and togetherness, without ever addressing the religious aspect.

Heck, I used to know a Jew who put up a Christmas tree every year. His wife was a convert, and even though they didn't celebrate Christmas in any form, she loved the look of the Christmas tree and the smell of the fresh-cut fir in the house. They were an odd couple, but it was a harmless acknowledgement of the traditions of her childhood.

[CTyankee]

71. The point is trees in PUBLIC places, not in private places

Sigh.

The issue is whether the public's taxpayer dollars should be spent purchasing, erecting and maintaining (staff time) a symbol of Christmas. What you do in your own home is your business; ditto your church. But not all taxpayers are Christians; why should they be forced to pay for a religion that is not theirs?

No Christmas trees, no Menorahs, no relgious anything in public spaces. Keep church and state SEPARATE. It is the best way to assure freedom of religion!

[Solon]

89. True, however, it was NEVER a CHRISTIAN symbol...

It was an old tradition of Germanic tribes of northern Europe, they had two traditions concerning trees, the first was the Yule Log, and the second was bringing in Pine trees and decorating them, to celebrate Yuletide, the Winter Solstice.

This tradition didn't begin to spread to either the United States or England till Prince Albert married Queen Victoria, he decorated their palace with his German tradition, the Christmas tree. Within a few years, damned near EVERYONE in England, and in America, started to decorate their homes with this Christmas tree. The funny thing was that at the time, people were saying they ALWAYS had Christmas trees, even though, up till the 1840s or so, they didn't.

The Christmas tree could be considered a "Cultural" rather than Religious tradition, something that dates back about 2500 years or more.

[lindisfarne]

56. Per SCOTUS, the menorah is *NOT* considered the equivalent of a nativity scene.

What case are you citing?????

[SoCalDemGrrl]

14. A Xmas tree is NOT a religious symbol -a cross or nativity yes but not

a damn tree for Chrissakes!! Neither is Santa.

The way I see it the rabbi was asking for the placement of a
MENORAH which without a doubt is a religious symbol, so the
airport rightfully said no.

[smirkymonkey]

23. Thank you!

Geez - what is with people? Until someone can show me where a decorated Fir Tree and Santa Claus show up in the Bible, then I will maintain that these are traditional yuletide symbols and in no way representative of religious belief.

[Mike Daniels]

27. It's funny how last year the whole "holiday tree" retail sale thing had DU'ers

siding with retailers and saying that the tree has no inherent religious meaning and that the fundies should get a clue.

Now, we have DU'ers claiming the exact reverse...that the trees are inherently Christian-symbolic and that the airport should accomodate the rabbi's request.


I wish I had access to last year's discussion to see if the same posters who claimed one view last year or now claiming the opposite view this time around.

[Toots]

29. Paint with a broad brush why don't you

Maybe it would be more helpful if you name some names instead of saying DU as a group did such and such...We had Americans saying one thing last year and by golly now there are Americans saying something entirely different...Can't those silly Americans ever make up their minds about anything? :shrug:

[havocmom]

35. Weeeell, if your religion leans toward pre-Christian Nordic...

yeah, the tree AND Santa could be religious symbols, but keep it under your (red and white) hat. ;)

Red and white 'shrooms, properly cured and handled by trained shamans.... Ho Ho Ho

Pretty traditional those green trees or red and white symbols, but, no, not in the Bible. So, if it's not in the Bible, it's not religious? :rofl:

Evergreen trees, holly, mistletoe, all green in the dark time of year. Make love under some, or kiss someone... fertility rites. :woohoo:

Makes me wonder how long until the fundy xians start forcing trees and red balls to be removed from public places. Might be a good thing that many members of radical cult mega churches don't delve into history very deep.

[CTyankee]

72. Sorry, but no. If you decorate a Christmas tree with ornaments and ask

ANYONE what religious holiday it represents, what do you think you will get? "Uh, now, let me just take a wild guess, it is so confusing, I never can get this stuff straight..."

Come on folks, You know and I know that the Christmas tree is the symbol of the Christmas season, the birth of Christ without which there is no Christian religion. The fact that it is rooted in paganism is at this point moot.

Nobody is saying that you or I cannot put up a Christmas tree in our own home or at our church or play Secret Santa at work (unless you work for a synagogue, I would guess). Everyone needs to get that straight.

[Lurking Dem]

39. "Saint" Nicholas?

Everything about Christ's Mass is steeped in religious symbolism.

[Xithras]

45. Giving gifts to children is religious symbolism?

This rich guy from Turkey became a priest, and gave away all of his families wealth to the needy and to orphans. He devoted his life to helping the poor, and eventually became a bishop...where he promptly began giving away the churches money to the poor. He was eventually sainted, and his celebratory day was December 6th.

Yep. What a bad, evil man he was.

Honestly, I wouldn't complain so much about Christianity if this type of symbolism got spread around a little more.

[Lurking Dem]

47. It's the "saint" part.

I don't think I even intimated he was "evil".

[Contrite]

60. Actually, it is. I looked it up.

When this story first came up. Turns out it is a Christian symbol and so is a wreath. I didn't know that. They represent eternity, everlasting life, etc.

[Solon]

90. Actually, wrong on both counts...

The tree must be an evergreen, and the tradition itself actually PREDATES Christianity by about 500 years, in Germanic tribes of Northern Europe, its related to the celebration of Yuletide(December 21). The Yule log also comes from these same tribes. The Wreath is a Roman tradition, worn by Roman Emperors and officials of the Empire, its was ADAPTED by the church, later on.

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

10. RIDICULOUS!!!!

How difficult is it to get a stupid Menorah to put amongst all the stinking trees?

The lack of intelligence in this fucked up country just amazes me!

GET A CHEAP FUCKING WOODEN/PLASTIC/METAL MENORAH, and find someplace to put it!!! It's a God Damned Seattle Airport for christ's sake.

But NOOOOOOOOOOO. They have to stand their ground and act like a bunch of babies. We'd rather take down the trees completely, toss them aside, and blame the Rabbi for being Anti-Christmas. Heck, maybe he's Anti-Christian too. Why not blame him for everything. Instead of putting up a frickin' menorah.

It's amazing this country continues to function. Sometimes I fear for the future with all these MORONS in control and in power.

[Erika]

13. The fundie Xtians won

They only care about the Jews, If the Jews realize they are only second class citizens without the "proper" beliefs to be recognized at the damn airports.

[Megahurtz]

55. I think you're wrong.

The Fudamentalist Christians will defend Jews always because Jesus was a Jew,
whom they hold in high esteem.

[Roland99]

62. I'd have to say Sanity won.

[SoCalDemGrrl]

15. Respectfully disagree with your point - Xmas tree is not religious Menorah is

I could see the rabbi's point if there were a nativity scene and he said

let's balance that with a menorah - they are both religious symbols, but

the Christmas tree is not a religious symbol.

He was wrong and the airport only removed the trees to avoid a frivolous lawsuit
on a matter that has already been ruled on by the Supreme Court.

I don't believe there was a conspiracy as you intimate to "make the Jews look bad". The rabbi
didn't really think this thing through.

[lindisfarne]

57. Per SCOTUS, the menorah can be considered a "cultural" symbol, not a religious symbol. n/t

[Megahurtz]

54. Nope. SeaTac stood for Separation of Church and State

which, after all, should stand.

[jmowreader]

114. How come no one else thought of this simple, sane solution?

I mean, come on. It's not like the rabbi was going to be standing next to it with a big tray of airline food, jumping out, grabbing people at random and screaming "if you don't convert to Judaism RIGHT NOW, I swear I'll make you eat every crumb of this!!!" It's a menorah. It's an inanimate object. It won't foment terrorism, cause bad breath or make the Baby Jesus sad.

The only real problem here is they'd have to put a sign on it saying "this is not a kinara." I know a menorah looks nothing like a kinara, but you know that if you put a menorah out with no explanation, 80 percent of the freepers in the world would think it was that "Kwanzaa thing."

[Raine]

16. They shouldn't have taken the trees down in the first place

they jerked them down like a bunch of spoiled brats instead of reaching a compromise. At least finally someone got some sense and they are working it it out.

[justice1]

17. Why must so many people threaten others with lawsuits?

The Rabbi should have requested they put up a menorah, and left out the statement referring to the court system.

[magellan]

18. The menorah is a religious symbol

If there's a secular symbol associated with Hannukah the way the Christmas tree is associated with Christmas, that would be the appropriate thing to place in the airport.

A bottle of Manischewitz maybe? :)

[independentpiney]

30. Hanukkah Harry?

[lindisfarne]

58. Not according to SCOTUS (the law of the land): the menorah can be considered

a cultural symbol, not necessarily a religious symbol.

[magellan]

63. Not to argue with the SCOTUS

...since their decisions are unimpeachable (I say with tongue firmly in cheek), and also as someone who isn't of the Hebrew faith, but as I understand it, historically the menorah is far more a religious than cultural symbol. It represents the burning bush and was originally part of the Tabernacle. I always equated it with the candles Christians put in their windows at Christmas; there is an undeniable aspect of faith there, blurred by time and modern commercialism though it may be.

[Lurking Dem]

86. Actually

the original 7 branched temple menorah represented the seven visible heavenly bodies. Nothing whatsoever to do with the burning bush.

[ChazII]

22. Do I hear

an Amen?? sorry for the bad joke, Excellent point - leave the courts out and put up the Menorahs next year.

[xchrom]

19. there have been public displays of christmas trees and menorrahs together

for years now.

hardly unusual.

why not just put up a menorrah along with trees and forget about it?

[Ian David]

21. I'm going to sue the airport unless they include The Flying Spaghetti Monster. n/t

[lindisfarne]

59. I would guess SCOTUS would consider the FSM a religious symbol. Sauce may be a cultural symbol. n/t

[Ian David]

20. The Lubavitch are chronic assholes.

Nobody ever hears about Reconsctructionist Jews pulling this kind of crap.

But hey, you know what would be funny?

As soon as they finish putting the xmas trees back up again, let's see if we can threaten to sue them to make them take them DOWN again.

And then, say you've changed your mind, so they put them back UP.

How many times can we make them take the trees down and put them back up before Xmas?

And can we videotape it and play it in fast-forward set to that music from The Benny Hill Show?

[UncleSepp]

93. BWAHAHA!! Thank you!!

"And can we videotape it and play it in fast-forward set to that music from The Benny Hill Show?"

Thank you. That gave me the best belly laugh I've had in a long time. I can *just* see that!!

[lynne]

25. Hang a dreidel on the Christmas tree and be done with it!

Neither are religious symbols.

A nativity or a menorah would be religious symbols. A CHRISTMON tree (meaning Christ Monogram) - where all the ornaments symbolize Christ in some way - would be a religious display, too, IMO.

[RamboLiberal]

26. Wonderful bunch of Christian "Christmas" Warriors

contacted the rabbi.

The rabbi had received "all kinds of calls and emails," many of them "odious," Grad said, adding he was "trying to figure out how this is consistent with the spirit of Christmas."

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20061212/D8LV9I1G0.html

On a lighter note imagine what the maintenance people are muttering. "Put the trees up. Take the trees down. Put the trees up. Stupid f'ing management!"

[dmallind]

31. Anyone ever wonder

Why any time the various Jewish groups, representing about 1.5% of the population or probably a bit less by now, have a complaint about Xian hegemony there is widespread media attention and some of that even reasonably balanced, but when atheist groups which represent at least five times that portion of the US population try to raise any issues, they are ignored until it becomes a major Appeals or Supreme Court matter?

Lest I offend the hypersensitive - never a small group here - I would like to be clear I do not ask this in a spirit of resentment, let alone anti-semitism (FWIW as an atheist debater I have found Jewish opponents to be on the whole far more well-informed, rational and contemplative than Xian ones, but to be fair in turn to Xians that may also be becauise of the type of Xians who tend to volunteer - usually fire-breathing fundies). I ask it in the spirit of flat out honest envy and desire to learn how to do the same damn thing. ;)

[havocmom]

37. Hear your question and your honest intent and second it.

There are lots of people who aren't in the 'mainstream' regarding religious belief. Probably so many that WE are, in fact, the mainstream.

I just have to chuckle at how most of the 'religious' symbols we consider to be traditionally Christian were usurped from indigenous peoples and integrated into practice as Christianity spread. Even many of the 'Saints' are just borrowed local gods and/or spirits.

And the tree as a symbol for Christmas is a relatively new thing, so what is the big deal anyway?

But if I want to avoid attempted religious indoctrination from my society as a whole, I pretty well have to stay the fuck in my own home with the TV off this time of year. If I mutter about a particular religious view being shoved down my throat, it gets me nothing but trouble from community.

That said, I really do love the season and all the traditions. It's people who annoy me ;)

[Bluebear]

32. kick

[MorningGlow]

33. I just want to thank SeaTac for the endorsement

...of the pagan religion.

Christmas trees. Holly. Stars. Candles. All of it--pagan. No shit. Look it up. :evilgrin:

[LibDemAlways]

36. The local Chabad in my LA suburb puts up a big

menorah in the local grocery store each year. I have no idea why, but if the store manager agrees with it, ok by me.

I like the diversity in my area. There are quite a few houses decked out in blue and white lights. For years a Jewish family put up a magnificent holiday display that people came from miles around to see. The homeowner worked at one of the movie studios and brought all kinds of spectacular props. It was awesome. They even had a "Toys for Tots" collection bin on their property. Many families get into the generic spirit of the holidays around here - which is as it should be - "peace and goodwill" - what a concept!

[TriMetFan]

38. Something like this happen at my job.

And is still going on. I work for Portland Oregon's Mass Transit. We have always have had a Holiday Dinner for those that had to work on Christmas Eve and Christmas Day. We have always have had a Christmas Tree's in all our Mass Transit Garages. But this year there will be no dinner and we almost lost our right to have our Christmas "Holiday" Tree. Why because some-one bitched that it was not right to celebrate a Christian Holiday in a State/Federal building. O.k. I can understand were these people are coming from. Separation of Church and State. I'm all for that. But what these folks didn't get was that others were going to blame the wrong group at our job for what they took upon them self to do. The Atheists were getting blamed, when in fact it was other Christians (wacko right) that were having a fit. Why because the Christmas Tree is a Pagan symbol that the Catholic Church mixed in to the Christian Religion. What ever! So the "WAR On Christmas" is really coming from the right. So what has been lost at our job this year because of these few wacko right wing dumb shits is...... A Holiday Dinner that fed over 4,000 people, the right to call The tree a Christmas Tree, and the biggest one is the Food Drive and Toy Drive we have done since back in the 1920's. This war on Christmas is a bunch of shit coming from the right. They don't care who they are hurting in the long run.

[seriousstan]

40. Christmas is a federal holiday.

[Zhade]

68. ...which it shouldn't be, as it's a governmental endorsement of religion.

NT!

[treestar]

41. The tree is rather a secular symbol at this point

There's no point in making a big deal out of things like this.

[0rganism]

43. two contradictory positions for the Xmas tree

Interestingly enough, I see both sides represented on this thread:

1. per SCOTUS decision, a "Christmas Tree" (it would be interesting to see the exact definition of the term) is not a religious symbol but rather one of secular and traditional seasonal celebrations, ergo either placing or removing said symbol from a public venue should not be construed as an act of religious significance.

2. per both the rabbi and the rabid fundy screamers, the "Christmas Tree" constitutes a symbol of the Christian religion the same way a Menorah might represent Judaism, and removal of said tree from public space is an embracement of religious neutrality, while displaying it in public space is an unmistakable symbol of the nation's Christian heritage.

Which is it? who's right?

I also find it remarkable that while the trees were likely placed in a manner consistent with position #1, pressure both to remove and retain the displays derives from position #2.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

46. Good. Now decorate them with dreidls, prayer flags, crescent moons,

and all manor of icons to celebrate our diversity. Is there a symbol that is meaningful to Atheists? If so, it should be included.

[Lilith Velkor]

65. orange stars and green clovers?

:silly:

The Atheist grave markers at Arlington cemetary are shaped like an atom. I don't know that it's meaningful, but it's cool in a sciencey sorta way.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

91. ...and pink hearts.

:rofl:

[Lilith Velkor]

116. Blue diamonds and purple horseshoes

As long as we're at it. :rofl:

[Buck Rabbit]

48. Carve the trees into Totem poles or pile them like a beaver dam.

As for me, I have a Christmas Tree, a lit snowman, blue and green house lights and more, even though I am not Christian.

Rabbalah, creator of heaven and earth, created rabbits in his image. Soulless bipeds were put on earth simply as a test, and test us they do.

[Megahurtz]

100. Lol!

:D

[buddysmellgood]

50. People used to say "Peace on Earth" now thanks to Bush and O'Reilly, all we hear

is War with Christmas.

[coffeenap]

51. Your title does not match the headline, fyi. nt

[Megahurtz]

52. Asshole! n/t

[Harper_is_Bush]

61. Your title does not match the story. Can you change it? n/t

[llmart]

64. This is all just so silly.......

There are so many more important things people could be worrying about or arguing over. I'm tired of all the angsty people in this country. If we didn't have it so good in this country we wouldn't be spending all this energy on a stupid "problem". I'm not religious but my childhood custom is putting up a tree. So what? And I'm tired of the one Jewish employee that works at my place who every year wants to raise a big stink over the one lousy wreath we hang. Give me a break. Do we have to over analyze everything? Is the wreath religious? Is a tree religious or secular? Am I offending someone? yada yada yada Get over it already and find a worthy cause to spend your energies on. When I walk into a department store and see a menorah do I get offended and find the manager and voice my opinion? I don't have the time or energy to fight that silly battle.

[Megahurtz]

67. Many Jewish people have been

bitching about this literally for years. It's so incredibally stupid.
They make it bad for the rest of their own people.
Wreaths and Trees are not fucking Religious Symbols and they have neurotic issues over it,
and they originally started the War on Christmas. (back in the 60's - 70's, I remember it)
and yes they need to get over it because I for one am tired of it too.

People should be allowed to decorate however they want for Kripes's sakes!

....Just for that I am going to erect my own version of "The Nightmare Before Christmas"
theme display just to piss eveyone off! :silly::sarcasm:

[CTyankee]

73. This is NOT an issue of you decorating any way you want.

It is the public support, through taxpayer dollars, of the trees and wreathes. Hello? This is a church/state separation issue!

So, please, feel free to erect your own version of The Nightmare Before Christmas.

If you want people to "get over" this issue, then you should get the issue straight. Please. Don't ask Jews to support a religion that is not their own with their tax dollars.

[Lurking Dem]

74. Thank you, CTyankee.

It seems such a simple issue to me. Telling me to "get over it" is the same as telling me to get over Christian prayer in school or mandatory Bible study.

[CTyankee]

76. Your support is appreciated. I know this argument well, I used to

make it: well, it's not a religious holiday and I'm not religious and anyway it's pagan and on and on. But I have listened and learned.

I have tried to explain how threatening Christian cultural hegemony is to the Jews. My entire family was southern protestant in the Bible Belt. But if I can learn, anyone can. It is so simple: no tax money to support religion. Why do you think that even here on DU people seem to miss that point?

[Lurking Dem]

77. Maybe it's easy to overlook

if you don't feel you are directly affected.

As a Jew living in the South there is simply no getting away from it. My library even has a tree. The lamposts in town are decorated with red and gold (that's more a tackiness issue ;) ), it's "Christmas" this and "Christmas" that 24/7.

I go as far as saying the government shouldn't be involved in marriage. No licensing of clergy to perform marriage - none of it. Unions recognized by the government should be civil.

My taxes shouldn't pay for a Christmas tree or anything else with "Christ" in it. And If I find a creche on public property I'm going to put a yarmulke on baby Jesus and make one of the wise men a mohel.

[CTyankee]

78. I agree re getting the govt. out of marriage. It's ridiculous.

Everybody gets a civil union and then does the marriage thing on their own.

We have a Christmas tree on our Green in New Haven. It just has lights on it. For awhile we also had a menorah. I don't want either one.

I truly don't get it. People get so upset about the tree thing and yet nobody is prevented from putting up and decorating their own tree and decorations! What is the matter with people?

[Lurking Dem]

79. We live in a "Christian Nation"

as I am so often reminded.

[CTyankee]

80. Screw that!

I don't buy that for one minute.

[llmart]

95. See my reply to post 73.......

No matter what I do I get a complaint every year from someone. If someone sends our library a Christmas card I hear about it. What the hell am I supposed to do to stop someone from sending us a card? Secretly whisk it away out of the mailbox so that no one sees it coming into the building? I'm telling you from personal experience, it's gone way overboard. I agree that a library should not have a manger and live nativity scene out front, and wouldn't approve that, but neither am I going to spend every December fretting over hurting the feelings of one non-Christian employee.

[Megahurtz]

102. It HAS gone way overboard.

Obnoxiously overboard.
I think that the people who have been brainwashed by their Religion
are unnecessarily turning this into a huge deal. It's become beyond ridiculous.
Someone has lied to them!

[Megahurtz]

112. Since you so much hate anything with the word "Christ" in it,

my question to you is:

Why do you HATE Jesus so much?

This guy who was a Jew (one of your own) and you have so much hatred for him
that you will go so far as to protest a "Christ"mas Tree just because of the way
that word is spelled, and because you assume that everyone that decorates one
on this day is clebrating Jesus's birth.

Inquiring minds want to know.

WHY so much HATRED???

[Lurking Dem]

113. You get hatred of Christ out of that?

You're an absolute stitch!

[Lurking Dem]

115. .

You apparently missed my post #103 but I do have to ask.....

Why do you hate separation of church and state so much?

Inquiring minds want to know.

[Megahurtz]

118. The Christmas Tree IS NOT a Religious Item

regardless of how that word is spelled!

Let it sink in already!

Don't accuse me of all people of being against Separation of Church and State!
I just know where to draw the line and apparently you don't.

On the other hand a Menorah IS a Religious item.
It was insisted by a Rabbi that a Menorah be put up at Christmas time
at the Airport because the Jews celebrate Hannukah at this time
which is a Holiday of the Jews celebrating their Religious freedom!!!

THAT makes a Menorah a Religious Item!!!

No Atheists, Agnostics, or any people of other Religions celebrate Hannukah and display a Menorah.
On the other hand, you will see them decorating Evergreen Trees for Christmas with no Religious intentions whatsoever!

A Menorah most certainly is a Religious item and it's not used all year by all Jewish people.
That's Bullshit and you know it.

I don't know what else to say because all I do is keep repeating myself and you don't hear,
let alone even consider anything I'm saying.

I can only come to the conclusion that you and a percentage of other Jewish people, for reasons unknown to me, have some kind of chip on your shoulder about your own Religion.
Those are personal issues that you all need to personally deal with.

So sorry, I can't help you on that one!:hi:

[Megahurtz]

83. Then maybe you, and others

are, and have been literally for years, blowing this issue way out of proportion.

Do you realize that millions of people who are not Religious in any way
actually put up a Christmas Tree every year?
Many Atheists put up Christmas Trees.
Many people celebrate Christmas just so they can exchange gifts.

Are you saying that a Christmas Tree is the same as Christian prayer in school
or mandatory Bible study? Isn't this a little excessive?
Where in the World did you get this belief system from?
With all due respect, it sounds to me like you've been brainwashed. By Religion.

I would guess that many of the people responsible for putting up the Trees at the SeaTac Airport
are not Religious at all. And that would explain why they would not want to put up a Menorah, because that is a Religious item.

If my hunch is correct, then this is why they wanted to adhere to the
Separation of Church and State issue.

[Lurking Dem]

84. Way to miss the point.

For your information, when SCOTUS ruled the Christmas tree wasn't religious it also ruled the menorah wasn't religious.

I don't think my tax dollars should pay for one yet not the other on public property. I don't give a rat's ass what someone does on their private property.

[Megahurtz]

87. I always thought that a Menorah

was a symbol to the Jewish people representing Moses and the Ten Commandments, is it not?
This is all in the Bible. If so, I don't see how the SCOTUS can rightly rule that it's not a Religious symbol.

Now what does a Christmas Tree represent to you? Is it really a symbol of the Christian Religion?
Just because it's spelled Christmas? There's nothing about a Christmas Tree in the Bible.
(I remember the spelling argument by the Jewish people in the sixties) Just because it's spelled Christmas doesn't mean that everyone who celebrates it is Christian. Spell it Xmas if you will!

What's in a spelling anyway? I could really care less how the word is spelled.
I guess that's your call if you object to your taxes paying for one one of these Trees,
but I think it's a petty argument, and because of this I think that the Rabbi was being a troublemaker. Since when do we all have control over what our tax dollars are paying for anyway?

If it will make you feel any better, I basically can't stand Christmas anyway.
I think it's way too commercialized (for the Corporations) and it puts pressure and guilt on those
who cannot afford to buy gifts. I just like looking at all of the pretty lights at this time of year.

Some upthread have said that the Christmas trees and decorations are from the Pagan Religion.
That's okay by me since my favorite Holiday is Halloween anyway.:evilgrin:

[Lurking Dem]

88. It is not.

The Christmas tree was used as Christian symbolism (everlasting life) and adopted by protestant religions for that purpose. It's sole purpose is to celebrate Christmas. You do not put up Christmas trees for President's Day.

Menorahs are used all year - the only difference being the 8 branches of the Chanukah menorah to represent 8 days.

SCOTUS ruled that neither were religious symbols but one could argue that decision all day. Either none of this shit should be put up or all if it should be on tax funded public property.

[Megahurtz]

101. I don't know where you

got the information that a Christmas Tree is Christian symbolism for everlasting life, because it is not.
If the Protestant Church adopted the idea, then it was exactly that. Adopted.

Adopted from who, the Pagan Religion? Old Germanic Tribes? Apparently so. Before Christianity was even a Religion the Wreath was a Pagan symbol for everlasting life. They decorated Evergreen Trees too.

Seriously, do a search on this subject, what you will find is interesting.

It's amazing how many Human Beings have used Religion to twist facts
to their own advantage over the ages!

[Lurking Dem]

103. I am well aware of the pagan beginnings of decorated trees.

Most fucking religion on this planet has pagan roots. Including a number of Jewish holidays.

But I'm not talking about archaeological anthropology or the derivations of calendar events.

The tree was adopted. A long, long time ago. It has an association and shares a name with a distinctly Christian holiday NOW.

I am a religious minority in a Christian nation that is becoming more so every year. We have Christian based national holidays, sponsored events, national tree lightings etc.

The Christian kids get public approved holidays from school, including extra days tacked on for traveling to Grandmas and the Jewish kids get "approved absences" requiring them to make up the missed work and barring them from perfect attendance awards.

I get to scrabble through a section of Kosher goods for a few items in the grocery store (in a town with no Kosher butcher which makes life fun for the Orthodox) amid holiday displays of red and green everything, ho ho hos, and "maybe you could go to that store in Belle Meade where some of your people shop" statements when looking for Chanukah items.

Display on your house. Display in your house. Display in your yard. Hang pagan holly on your fucking car. I DON'T CARE.

But don't expect me to willingly PAY for displays on tax supported public property.

I think that's more than fucking enough.

[Megahurtz]

82. Uhh...no kidding CT

:wtf:
I suppose you did not first read my post #54 above
where I said that it's a Separation of Church and State issue?:dunce:

And since when is putting up a CHRISTMAS TREE supporting a fucking Religion???

A Christmas Tree is not a Religious item whatsoever!!!

That's the issue that you need to get straight that I addressed in my post that you responded to.

By the way, have you ever been to Seattle?
Have you actually seen how many Evergreen Trees are around SeaTac Airport?
So are they all Religious items?
Ya think that's maybe one reason they thought of decorating Evergreen Trees?
Oh, only if they put balls and lights on them I guess.:eyes: :sarcasm:

There are way too many more issues to be concerned about our tax dollars being spent over!!!
I don't go around bitching about whatever decorations are put up in Public Display
just because I don't like them, and just because my stupid tax dollars are being spent on them, and

....I would never INSIST that a Religious item be put up somewhere where I did not own the property (because of the Separation of Church and State issue) and then threaten to sue the responsible parties if they didn't put up that Religious item!

And yes, they need to get over it because they are making themselves look like Idiots
in the process, and that's my opinion.
I'm sure there are many more who feel the same.

[llmart]

96. Agreed 100%!

As I said upthread, I'm the administrator of a public building and if these people and people here at DU are REALLY so concerned with taxpayer money, I can tell you there are bigger issues about how it's spent than on putting up a wreath. They're just pretending to care about how their taxpayer money is spent. Throughout the year I seldom have patrons come to me and question the cost of anything else in the library, but put up one green wreath in a 25,000 square foot facility and all of a sudden you hear "I don't want my taxpayer money spent on it", even though, as I stated upthread, taxpayer money wasn't used.

Sigh!

[llmart]

94. To set you straight on my personal experience.......

I'm the administrator of a publicly funded building and the one wreath was not paid for with taxpayer monies, thank you. So, once, again, find something more worthy to spend your emotional energies on. It's a frickin' wreath already!

[Nye Bevan]

66. Simply decorate one of the trees with blue lights,

put a Star of David on the top and call it a "Chanukah Bush". Problem solved.

[Poll_Blind]

69. This is "Blame the Jews", plain and simple. The Rabbi not only....

...had a point but a legally-actionable grievance.

  The Rabbi and a hell of alot of other people in this country recognize this for what it is: Christian-centrism backed up by threats.

  The ACLU should take up his case for him. The Rabbi has done nothing wrong, merely expect that if the airport is going to display religious symbols that his should be displayed as an equal.

  Either you allow all religions to be represented or you allow none. Anything else is pejorative.

PB

[CTyankee]

81. I kinda doubt that the ACLU would back the rabbi on his idea

that the airport put up a menorah as a quid pro quo.

Why is it so important that people feel that public place MUST be religiously decorated? We have private decorations every where we look and that is just fine.

[Megahurtz]

85. I'm still perplexed as to why

you believe a decorated Evergreen Tree is a Religious decoration.:wtf:

[CTyankee]

97. When is an evergreen decorated? All year round? Why not?

Do we decorate evergreens to celebrate summer solstice or spring equinox?

Why MUST we force all of the taxpayers to support the decorating of evergreens if their religion has NOTHING to do with that practice?

Why aren't you satisfied with your freedom to decorate to your heart's content in your home, at your desk, in your church and on and on.

I take a hard line on this because I believe that strict church/state separation is essential for the freedom to practice one's religion. Forcing non=Christian taxpayers to support another religion is tyranny just dressed up as Santa Claus.

[Megahurtz]

99. Maybe because decorating an Evergreen Tree

or a wreath really has nothing to do with any Religion?:shrug:

I mean, really think about it.

What does decorating an Evergreen Tree all year round have to do with it?
Why do you think that if the Trees were decorated all year round
that then it would not be about Religion so it would be okay?
Why does every action of decorating Evergreen Trees during this particular Holiday,
have to be considered to be Religious-based?
It does not, and it is not, for millions of people.

I am for strict Separation of Church and State as well,
but there are no Religious-based intentions to decorating an Evergreen tree, or putting up a Wreath. Not unless one adds their own Religious symbolism to the greenery.

Millions of non-Christians, agnostics, and Athiests around the World decorate Evergreen Trees and Wreaths in public places during this Holiday season and they are in no way supporting any Religion. And there is no Religion that teaches the practice of decorating an Evergreen Tree or Wreath. Seriously.

[CTyankee]

104. I think that you know and I know that the religous majority in this country

is Christian. Do you for one minute doubt that the impulse to decorate an evergreen in this country is Christian?

[Lurking Dem]

105. Would you like a brick wall

to bang your head into? Might be less painful and more productive.

[CTyankee]

110. Yes, please. Can I have one delivered in time for...

no, wait...:banghead: :banghead:

[Megahurtz]

111. YES. I most CERTAINLY do.

(For one thing it sounds like you've been watching too much 700 Club with Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell) The "Born Again Fundamentalists are not the Religious majority in this Country.
They would like to believe that they are.

As I said upthread, there are millions of people around the World that decorate Evergreen Trees
and put up Wreathes every year. These people are of DIFFERENT Religions,
and sometimes NO Religion at all. (Atheists)

So are you telling me that all of these people of different Religions, or lack thereof,
have a "Christian" impulse to decorate an Evergreen Tree during Christmas time???
Do you really you think that this practice is "Christian"???

Seriously, I mean :wtf:??????????

[CTyankee]

109. Well, I can't speak for millions of other people.

All I can speak to is the opinion of my Jewish friends who believe that using their taxpayers money to decorate for what is clearly a Christmas holiday denotes public support for that holiday. So the question becomes, why is it SO important that taxpayers support the practice in public places? Why MUST there be this practice when anybody can decorate all they want to in their homes, churches and private work spaces. Our stores and restaurants are awash with evergreen decorations this time of year. And don't get me wrong: I think that's lovely. I like looking at beautiful Christmas decorations on people's lawns, in their homes, in the restaurants where I eat and in the stores while I shop for the holiday. I do the tree and Santa with my granddaughters and use Christmas wrap, etc, etc.

I just have had my consciousness raised by talking about the public display issue with my non-Christian friends.

[Javaman]

75. Thank goodness! I'm just now fully recovered from the candy-cane shrapnel

from last year.

[Harper_is_Bush]

92. This topic should be locked.

The title is not only incorrect (LBN must match news story) but it's wrong.

The airport gave in. The Rabbi let them off the hook.

[Lurking Dem]

98. You are correct.

I asked about the title but I guess it was too late for anybody to change it.