Iranian Cleric: Holocaust no more than a myth

[democratic]

http://www.iranmania.com/News/ArticleView/Default.asp?NewsCode=47967&NewsKind=Current%20Affairs

LONDON, December 12 (IranMania) - Secretary General of Int'l Congress to Support Palestinian Intifada Ali-Akbar Mohtashamipour emphasizing need for survey and research on Holocaust, said here Monday, "Results of surveys so far show Holocaust is no more than a myth", IRNA reported.

Speaking to IRNA on the sidelines of the Foreign Ministry sponsored International Conference to Survey Holocaust: A Global Vision", December 11-12, he added, "The Western and 'Zionist' media have always been aggrandizing the dimensions of the reality of Holocaust, mixing a bit of truth with a lot of lies."

He stressed, "Results of surveys and research work at hand today around the globe prove the fact to the world nations that much of what has been said in the West about the Holocaust is nothing but a big myth."

[TechBear_Seattle]

1. I can't understand: why is it so important for anti-Semites to deny the Holocaust?

I've never understood the psychology of Holocaust denial. It seems that the bigots would want to acknowledge the Holocaust and state that it should have been completed or otherwise didn't go far enough; that would be much more in line with their hatred.

Why is it so important that they call the sudden disappearance of most of Europe's Jewry a hoax?

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

2. I think it was Mel Gibson's dad who said they all went to Brooklin or

some shit like that. Now how's that for a theory?

[geek tragedy]

7. They want to make Judenhass socially acceptable, and the

first step towards that is pretending that Judenhass didn't lead to the greatest crime of the 20th Century.

[aquart]

12. I've never understood it, either.

Particularly when they're so eager to repeat it. Unless........well, the Christ died for your sins looks a little small next to six million dying for the world's sins of hatred and indifference. Petty, even.

But that wouldn't account for the Muslim need.....

I did meet a student once who insisted that the only people who had ever been slaves were black. He was very upset to discover that slavery was equal opportunity in the ancient world.

It's kinda like terrorists being really perplexed with how to top 9/11. Six million dead is the currently unassailable champion victimhood, just as 9/11 is the champion terror strike of all time. If you want YOUR group to be the champion victims...you either gotta match it, or destroy faith in the previous record. Like saying all the Jews took steroids when they were gassed or something. Or went to Brooklyn and watched Yankee games.

[Taverner]

17. For Iranian Anti-Semites, it means no justification for Israel

Part of the argument for the existance of the State of Israel was a response to the Holocaust.

Of course, it's not the only reason for its existance (Pro-Israel types need to counter the lie that Israel had no Jews in it before "settlement.")

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[no_hypocrisy]

3. Let me get this straight:

You could invoke a jihad by alleging there is no Allah or publishing an anti-Mohammed cartoon, but it's okay to controvert established imperical fact with evidence and claim there was never a European Holocaust against the Jews, the gypsies, homosexuals, catholics, political dissenters, communists, socialists, and intellectuals.

[LivingInTheBubble]

19. He's been invoking jihads?

[RethugAssKicker]

4. So, I guess we should start bombing now???

[Behind the Aegis]

5. Clearly.

:eyes:

[The Magistrate]

9. What Is The Point Of This Line, Sir?

Are you accusing anyone who denounces the self-declared Anti-Semtism of the Iranian leadership of being a supporter of the Bush regime here in this country?

[RethugAssKicker]

11. No, but I am sure I can find similar stupid comments made by

Israeli Rabbis.... As you may be aware, we are currently undergoing
Mind training to hate and demonize Iran. I for one, refuse to join the game.

[The Magistrate]

14. That Is A Pointless Statement, Sir

Such rabbis, and there are a handful of them, are not sitting in positions of government authority. The man cited here is. The President of Iran makes such statements, and he is certainly a government official, and though the bulk of power there is held by an un-elected circle of clerics, this fact means that if his statements on the matter did not please these men, he would be persuaded to stop making them.

The people of this country, Sir, have had rather a hate on for Iran ever since the seizure of our embassy there in 1979. No particular "mind training" is necessary. The people are not going to support at present any major war with the place, being rather disenchanted with war in the Near East right now. However, the statements of Iranian leadership, that they make quite voluntarily, are hateful, and strike most people ih our country as hateful. That is not a product of any manipulation here: that is the genuine reaction of our people to hateful specech by Iranian leaders.

[RethugAssKicker]

22. Do you know for a fact that people in the Israel gtovernment

do no make such statments?... How do you know?... because you don't hear about it in the MSM?...

We are being trained to hate Iran, just as with Saddam.. and NO, most Americans do not hate Iran because of the hostage crisis back in 1979...

IMO and others such as Chomsky, believe that most ME people have been quite tame, given the treatment they have been given since WWI.

[The Magistrate]

28. There Has Recently, Sir

Been accepted into a Unity government there a fellow named Lieberman who can fairly be described as consumed with race hate for Arabs. He is not a major player, and others in the government have routinely denounced his extreme comments.

[The Stranger]

24. Maybe not accusing "anyone" or everyone, but instead alerting people

to the fact that just because the leader of Iran is an Anti-Semite, does not mean that military action against Iran by the U.S. is therefore justified.

And, yes, there are some (probably many) supporters of the Bush regime who have been attempting to do exactly this. Maybe not to "anyone" or everyone, but instead specifically to those people described, the message appears to be intended.

[The Magistrate]

27. That Is A Very Odd Posture You Have Contorted Yourself Into, Mr. Stranger

It remains a statement that condemnation of a state policy of Anti-Semitism and Holocaust denial on the part of the Islamic Republic of Iran should not be engaged in by persons on the left, and that the left should instead engage in apologetics and minimalizations of the fact that Anti-Semtism and Holocaust denial are state policy of the Islamic Republic of Iran.

[The Stranger]

62. Maybe you can translate your post from the faux legalese.

Again, the point is that the U.S. should not be fucked into another catastrophic war resulting in the murder of hundreds of thousands more because this man is an Anti-Semite.

[The Magistrate]

72. Plain English Is A Marvelous Thing, Mr. Stranger

And the point is that persons on the left make a disasterous mistake, and discredit themselves seriously, by refusing to denounce, and even defending, the Anti-Semitism and Holocaust denial that are the state policy of the Islamic Republic of Iran. The "point" you urge here barely qualifies as inside baseball for political cranks....

"The enemy of my enemy is generally another enemy of mine."

[Mythsaje]

6. It's just amazing that they're SO much like our own far RW nuts...

And yet they STILL hate one another.

They're like kissing cousins.

Freakin' astounding.

[Kagemusha]

8. Just FYI but, the title and the article content don't mix.

If the words "Iranian Cleric" and "Holocaust" were changed, I would say that there's no way in hell that "no more than a myth" can be derived from "much of what has been said is nothing bit a big myth". Oversimplification to the point of banalization.

That said, it is still Holocaust denial.

[The Magistrate]

10. That Is Close Enough For Newspaper Work, Sir

The only real difference between the two formulations is the number of syllables.

[Kagemusha]

15. It's close enough for bad newspaper work.

Yes, I know this is standard procedure for Iran's president's own quotations about the Holocaust, but that doesn't make it right. If something's a 7 out of 10 on the disgust scale, butchering it so it's 10 out of 10 and presenting it as an accurate report, when the prose of the very same article makes clear this is not so, just isn't good journalism. But who cares, they're only Holocaust deniers, I guess.

[The Magistrate]

16. You Are Pressing A Distinction Without A Difference, Sir

The two statements do not convey to me any materially different meaning. It puzzles me, to put it bluntly, why you are so concerned to press that they do.

[Teaser]

20. Not correct

First off, lets get one thing straight: the cleric is fucktarded. I don't want anyone misconstruing my post.

However, if one says "much of what is said about <OBJECT> is no more than X"

this is different than "<OBJECT> is no more than X"

The first statement says that many STATEMENTS ABOUT <OBJECT> = X.

The second statement says that <OBJECT> = X.

The first is an equation of merely a portion of the descriptors of <OBJECT>
The second is an equation of the entirety of the being of <OBJECT>

entirely different.

That said, again, the cleric is fucktardamente.

[The Magistrate]

23. The Meanings Are Essentially The Same, Sir

One simply uses more syllables, and gives the speaker a tad more wiggle room when called on the fact that he is claiming the thing is a fabrication.

[endarkenment]

26. Arghhhhh sorry magistrate but you are being thick here. nt.

[The Magistrate]

29. No, Sir, Merely Being Conversant With The English Language

And with common forensic formulae....

"Never send a ferret to do a weasel's work."

[otherlander]

39. "Much of what is said about vampire bats is a myth."

"Vampire bats are a myth."

[The Magistrate]

41. If You Honestly Think, Ma'am, This Man Is Engaged In A Search For Truth

There can be no point to prolonging this exchange, though if you are ever interested in beach-front properties in Arizona, feel free to contact me....

[Teaser]

64. You've just erected a straw man.

congratulations on using the worst tool in a hack debaters toolbox.

[IA_Seth]

32. No, not really...

Much of what is said about pregnancy is mere fantasy.

Pregnancy is fantasy.

Do these statements mean the same thing to you?

----

I normally agree with you, and I share your curiousity as to why this is being pressed, but you can't just add a sir and pretend you are right ALL the time, sir.

[The Magistrate]

42. The Problem With That Line, Sir

Is that to press it one must presume honest interest in truth on the part of the speaker, and it is abundantly clear there is no such interest in this case. The meaning the man meant to convey is adequately expressed in both statements, and we both know that to be the case.

[IA_Seth]

45. That isn't my argument...

I'll definitely argue whether this belongs in LBN, it neither breaking, nor news...Iran's current gov't. is rife with those that will deny the holocaust ever took place...it seems silly to march out every last example everytime a new one arises....however that isn't my call.

---------
My argument is the fact that after reading this...

However, if one says "much of what is said about <OBJECT> is no more than X"
this is different than "<OBJECT> is no more than X"
The first statement says that many STATEMENTS ABOUT <OBJECT> = X.
The second statement says that <OBJECT> = X.
The first is an equation of merely a portion of the descriptors of <OBJECT>
The second is an equation of the entirety of the being of <OBJECT>

...You said the meanings of the two are essentially the same. They aren't, it doesn't follow logically that the two statements say the same thing.

[The Magistrate]

46. It Is Necessary To The Argument, Sir

The line you are pressing can have value in analyzing this only if one accepts that th person in the article is actually a disinterested seeker after the truth of some matter about which a great dela of mis-information and distortion swirld. He is not, and the matter in question is not. Formal exercises in logic do not much impress or interest me: we are not dealing with an "X' or a "Y", but with statements made by a political figure and a journalist's condensation of them. The journalist did not distort the meaning of the politician's utterance. The politician is an Anti-Semite engaged in Holocaust denial.

[Kagemusha]

So because we know he's a bad man

twisting his words is ok.

I was right, this really is "truthiness" in action...

[The Magistrate]

51. His Words Were Not Twisted, Sir

His meaning, the meaning he intended to convey, remained intact.

[Kagemusha]

55. Were we not discussing a bad man, I would laugh at you, Sir.

The difference is between "the Holocaust is exaggerated" and "the Holocaust is a complete fabrication in all aspects". It's the difference between the perception of reason and the perception of unthinking bestiality.

Since by now people might be looking at me cross, let me say that I do not believe the Holocaust is exaggerated or fabricated in any of its well known, rigorously researched aspects. However, I do not think the Western world's intellectual credibility is served by then exaggerating or fabricating those who would make historically incorrect claims about the Holocaust. Let truth shine and dispel the lies with light, not another shovel of darkness to conceal other darkness, please.

[The Magistrate]

57. But That Is Just What We Are Discussing, Sir

And the line you are claiming is something different is in fact merely the standard opening wedge of minimization that seeks to end with the statement nothing particular was done to Jews by Hitler at all. The fact is that there are no lies of any importance in even the popular conception of the Hitlerite crimes, and none in the professional historical account of them. There is no other side in this: there is no debate. What you are defending here is precisely the thing you close by claiming to denounce, namely, the shovelling of darkness to conceal other darkness. That is what the busines of this conference is.

[Kagemusha]

61. What you're defending is the use of news as political propaganda.

You're saying that reporters do not need to report the news as it is, but rather, solely in conjunction with the popular conception of the Holocaust. What agrees with that conception is reported; what does not, is minimized and shunted aside as pathetic attempts by the enemy to disguise his hateful appearance.

What you're describing is not reporting the news.

But, you've got the situation all wrong if you're taking what I'm saying as defending this stupid conference. Uh, no. Not one bit. What I'm attacking is the loss of integrity in the news business that makes the rank hypocrisy of having an article title at complete odds with the reported quote contained within that the entire process must necessarily be viewed with ridicule.

I can only ridicule your statements that two things that are different on their face are, in fact, one and the same, and therefore the more extreme sounding version can be substituted for the other because it represents the greater truth, the truth of the heart, the truthiness, even though that is not what the speaker actually SAID. Nothing but mockery for this. I'd say you're kidding me if I didn't know you were dead serious.

It's not news, simple as that.

I'll just say this to get it off my chest: any reasonable reader would be unable to believe that anyone in his right mind would claim that the Holocaust is nothing but myth. So what, then, is the point of taking the cleric's words, which were not, "the Holocaust is nothing but myth," deciding that is in fact, what he really meant, and therefore stating, as if the cleric actually said it - which he did not - but as if the cleric actually had said, "the Holocaust is nothing but myth," except to make him appear to be clinically insane? Well there isn't one; it's precisely what it looks like, an attempt to make the speaker look insane rather than merely evil.

Except, there is a problem with this, a very serious one: the speaker, presumably quoted accurately in the body of the text, is obviously NOT insane, but probably mendacious, and most certainly insensitive and cruel. His manner of speech here is that of a fundamentalist espousing an idea that appeals to the faithful and scorns the West, but which is being spoken so as to sound reasonable enough that a person with enough spite towards Israel and the West (or the rest of the West, if you prefer) might view the statement as having at least some validity. You think it has none. Good for you, but that's not the point.

The point is that it is news as to whether or not this cleric is insane, or merely racist/ bigoted/ hateful towards Jews. For a profession that supposedly exists to serve the public, journalism is certainly dropping the ball here. It matters whether or not Iran's leaders are insane or not. Falsely portraying them as flat out nuts is not an innocent act of hyperbole, but rather, a fraud upon the public that injures democracy and makes rationally engaging Iran even more difficult than before.

Far worse, the fraud is so easily deconstructed by casual readers that it insults the intelligence and completely ruins the positive value of the propaganda - not that propaganda is apporpriate here, but nevermind that - to the editor, to Israel, to you, and so on. The only group impressed is the proverbial choir being preached to. It's not just propaganda. It's insultingly shallow propaganda that proves its own slant to be a fabrication tangentally based on the original quote.

I'm sad for the injury this article will do to well meaning supporters of Israel and Jews everywhere. Their cause is ill served by infantilizing Iranian leaders in a transparent and easily criticized manner. And frankly, I think the infantilizing is a mistake to begin with. It's too short a leap from there to underestimation.

[The Magistrate]

70. You Are Tying Yourself In Knots For No Good Purpose, Sir

The fact is that the clerical subject of this story is a Holocaust denier. Anyone familiar with lines of arguement pressed by Holocaust deniers over previous decades will recognize the codings employed in the more extended quotes from his mouth. The headline writer, in the manner of his trade, has simply compressed the comments into a minimum of syllables, and done so without the slightest alteration to the meaning conveyed by the statements of the subject of the story. No one who simply reads the headline, which will be a tremendously greater number than those who soldier on to the article, will have received a false impression in the matter: the man is a Holocaust denier and an Anti-Semite, and speaking for a government that has adopted Anti-Semitism and Holocaust denial as state policy.

Your statement that Holocaust denial is synonymous with clinical insanity is nonesense. You will not find that a diagnosis in the psychiatric trade. Persons afflicted with certain mental disorders may display Holocaust denial among their symptoms, but that is a different thing, and most of those disorders do not amount to insanity. It is a common and comforting belief that evil is a product of insanity, and that its presence is a sure indicator of insanity, but that belief is as false as most of the things good and well-meaning people comfort themselves with in this unhappy world here below.

[IA_Seth]

49. "exercises in logic do not much impress or interest me"

Nuff said, carry on then.

I had thought perhaps you were interested in actually proving yourself correct, alas you don't seem to be.

[The Magistrate]

52. Formal Logic, Sir

Is a very, very poor tool for dealing with situations in which the human element predominates. It is an excellent tool for numbers, and other propositions lacking any important subjective element.

[IA_Seth]

56. I wouldn't classify this as 'formal'...

It is simple logic, very simple in fact.

Look, I am not disagreeing with your premise that the Iranian government is routinely involved in denying the holocaust, and if that is what you insist upon arguing, so be it.

What I am saying is that at the most basic level you're assumption that the two statement are equal is false. I am one of those simple 'truthseekers' and hate to see someone go on and on when they are wrong.

I'm done.

[The Magistrate]

58. The Resort To 'X' And 'Y', Sir, Makes It Formal

And hence quite sterile and of no importance whatever in discussing a human behavior.

The meaning of the Anti-Semitic Holocaust denier was not distorted by the journalist, and there is no point to pretending that it was.

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Teaser]

63. Incorrect.

I can translate it into a symbolic representation and formally prove that the two are not saying the same thing, if you like. I very nearly did it in my previous post.

[LivingInTheBubble]

21. poor writing/translation ...

The headline is in the first paragraph body of the (very badly written) story too, so the headline and story do match.

I don't know about whether his quotes are translated or not but they are inconsistent with each other so I doubt the translation quality.

[The Magistrate]

25. This 'Poor Translation' Wheeze Is Getting Very Old, Sir

It really is time to face the fact that Holocaust denial is state policy with the Iranian Republic of Iran, and for persons on the left to leave off apologetics for the reactionary bigots who run that place.

[NeedleCast]

30. I Was Going to Say the Same

There are only so many times I can hear that the leadership of Iran is simply being mis-translated or misunderstood in their feelings on Isreal. I might be convinced that it was simply an error in translation once or twice, but this has become a pretty regular statement for the leadership of Iran.

[Kagemusha]

33. Look either the quote in the body of the text is correct or it's not.

If it's correct - that is, if the quote made by the journalist who wrote the damned article is correct - the title is butchery. It's always possible that the journalist misquoted the cleric and the cleric said something worse than what the journalist quoted him as saying in the body of the text. In other words, the title is correct and the journalist is mistaken. But, I know that it's standard practice that the editor picks the title. So, the editor is likely to have picked an article title WHICH MAKES HIS OWN JOURNALIST LOOK LIKE A BLATHERING IDIOT WHO IS COVERING UP THE TRUE ANTI-SEMITISM OF THE SPEAKER QUOTED, because of what is known in the vulgar as editorial slant.

If we assume that the journalist was indeed quoting in the body of the text accurately, the editor purposefully made the cleric sound worse than he really did when the actual quote was already bad enough.

It's become a pretty regular statement that the leadership of Iran denies the Holocaust completely, in its entirety. Maybe so, but that's not what the leaders of Iran have actually been saying. That's why it ticks me off. News organizations should leave the psychic mind-reading to mediums.

[The Magistrate]

43. Holocaust Denial, Sir, Is Exactly What That Government Is Engaged In

And as a matter of state policy. Attempts to minimize this, or engagements in apologetics for it, have long since ceased to be even mildly amusing.

[Kagemusha]

48. Aggrandizing it through false pretenses (i.e. lies) is not amusing either.

I simply don't understand why exaggerating and lying about it is preferable. More "truthiness" I guess; the gut says it's true, so who cares what "book knowledge" says someone said.

[The Magistrate]

50. To Say A Holocaust Denier Denies The Holocaust, Sir, Is Not A Lie

Why you are at such pains to defend this fellow escapes me.

[Kagemusha]

54. Because even Holocaust deniers deserve better.

That's why, damnit. We're better than that. The guy saying MOST of the Holocaust is made up is Holocaust denying. I don't feel the necessity to embellish the point with a lie. Why lie, even about the words of a Holocaust denier? I imagine to make him appear not just a bad man, but insane.

[The Magistrate]

59. Flat Nonesense, Sir

He deserves what my old friend Mr. Absynthe used to call a "dirt nap", and that after a sufficient passage of time in agony to provide some public example and amusement. Anything short of that is an unfortunate mis-fire in the arrangements of the universe, but regretably, these are frequent.

But no one lied about the wretch: the meaning his words conveyed was not distorted by the journalist.

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

68. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Teaser]

13. Teaser:Iranian cleric no more than a shithead

nt

[IA_Seth]

31. I don't see how this is Late Breaking News...

Iran has had more than it's share of anti-semitic fools who deny the holocaust over the years.

In other LBN, it's hot in the Sahara and an idiot lives in the White House.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[geek tragedy]

36. Just the standard Zionist conspirators.

:sarcasm:

[oblivious]

38. No kidding. Secretary General of Int'l Congress to Support Palestinian Intifada? Iranmania?

Headline international news? We're getting pretty desperate for news I guess.

[The Magistrate]

53. There Will Be Daily Reports From That Conference, Sir

They will be news, and treated as such. It probably will be uncomfortable for those committed to defending the government of the Islamic Republic of Iran, and attempting to minimize and engage in apologetics for its state policy of Anti-Semitism and Holocaust denial, but there will be no help for it....

[cali]

60. It is breaking news in most of the media

around the world. Thus, it is not surprising to find it here in LB on DU. Why does it bother you that it is?

[genieroze]

40. I suppose all those pictures of dead people were a myth. What a jerk!

[savemefromdumbya]

44. Cheney probably paid him to say that

[The Magistrate]

47. Do You Really Think So, Sir?

Would you care to share with us, if you do, any evidence you found persuasive in adopting that view?

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

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[Javaman]

69. didn't these idiots say something about this conference not being about

whether or not the Holocaust happened?

What a bunch of fucking racist bigoted pigs.

It just sickens me.

I think of my Uncle who liberated 2 concentration camps and the things he wrote to my mom regarding them (I had to opportunity to read those letters years later)

I think the simple point that every racist fails to understand, although there were 6million plus people killed by the nazi's during WWII, even if one person is killed because of their race, religion or gender, to me, is still a crime against humanity.

They will never get it.

[skip fox]

71. Like evolution and global warming! Both our government and theirs

is fact adverse.