Iranian students hide in fear for lives after venting fury at Ahmadinejad

[cali]

Robert Tait in Tehran
Monday December 18, 2006
The Guardian


Iranian student activists who staged an angry protest against President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad last week have gone into hiding in fear for their lives after his supporters threatened them with revenge.
One student fled after being photographed holding a banner reading, "Fascist president, the polytechnic is not for you", during Mr Ahmadinejad's visit to Tehran's Amir Kabir university. At least three others have gone underground after being seen burning his picture. Vigilantes from the militant Ansar-e Hezbollah group have been searching for them.


In a startling contrast to the acclaim Mr Ahmadinejad has received in numerous recent appearances around Iran, he faced chants of "Death to the dictator" as he addressed a gathering in the university's sports hall last week. Several hundred students forced their way in to voice anger over a clampdown on universities since he became president last year.


While his aides played down the incident, the Guardian has learned details of the violent and chaotic events.

<snip>

Students now fear an even fiercer crackdown. "We believe will react much worse than before," said Armin Salmasi, 26, a leading activist. "We are already under constant surveillance. The student movement in Iran is going to be driven underground - just like it was before the revolution."


http://www.guardian.co.uk/iran/story/0,,1974334,00.html#article_continue

[rpannier]

1. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad...

That's farsi for george bush

[magellan]

2. lol

Which is English for fascist asshole.

It's amazing to me how similar these two bastards are, right down to the violent hatred they foment among their supporters against anyone who criticizes them. I wish men would keep their dicks out of politics.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[StopVoteFraud]

23. If you prefer Ahmidinejad to Bush...

Then by all accounts, go to Iran.

[sam sarrha]

3. i am afraid to say it looks like Dubya is smarter than Madline.. that is dangerous situation

[neoblues]

5. Tough to determine...

which is smarter since they're both dumb as rocks. Even so, I wouldn't give Dumbya an edge.

[sam sarrha]

33. Dubya is dumb stupid... Madline is gOD dumb stupid

[shery]

6. Ahmed Nijad

Ahmed Nijad is a respectable leader
at least he dont caught the religious people in Iran cuz they only pray in mosque
You havent been in iran and what you only hear s rumors
At least iran had a real elections and people in iran admires the current government

Even if there s people who dont agree with the government you may find them the one who use to live in USA or outside iran and more allies to the Shah government before khomeni take over

and every country in The world you may find some people who agree and disagree with the government

but In iran the majority are very loyal and agreeing with the current government

The shia in general are very well organized people and very loyal to eachother
and that is something that everyone should respect

They arent a threat to anyone .. they are the one who feel always threat by everyone around them
they had a history of oppression and they have a history with saddam
when saddam been the ally of united state and start a war against iran

blessed by ramsefeld .. I guess
the democrats should start a new strategy and policy with iran
cuz iran is a great country .. and no one tells america to change their government and to be religious

So no one has the right to tell iran to seperate religion on politics

as we dont have the right to tell you to return god into your life and your schools

Cause yourself have seen that being far from god cause youth to be very violent and has no principals .

regards .

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Henny Penny]

9. or possibly from someone who does not have english as

their native language.

Despite the US's imperial ambitions... they're still out there.... and they don't rite as gud as wot we do.

[cali]

10. That is an excellent point

and one that should have crossed my mind, but it doesn't change one whit, my opinion about the substance of the post. Nor does the discussion of Ahmadinejad and abuses in Iran, neccessarily invariably, have to be linked back to the US's imperial ambitions. Those ambitions, in and of themselves do not excuse Ahmadinejad.

[bitchkitty]

16. Maybe borderline illiterate, but you're very rude

to treat her like that. It may be that she is from Iran and her English isn't perfect. Perhaps you speak perfect Farsi?

Illiterate or not, I'd believe an Iranian's view of their own country, of their own government, before I'd believe any Western news outlet, including the Guardian.

[treestar]

19. IA, it is a valuable view and there is no point to making fun of

someone for expressing something in a second language (with a different alphabet). With * and the freepers, it's their only language.

The ability to get something out on such an abstract subject in a second language isn't "effed up."

Also shows how we fail to bring democracy to others by military force - we just make other people defensive and they start defending their pre-existing way. We could just lead by example, so the Iranians can see from that and decide for themselves that separation of religion from politics is a good thing - they have lost most of their Christian and Bahai citizens by now, and many of those people might have contributed much to their country, but they are Americans now. Maybe they will lose too many of their Sunni citizens if they keep it up.

We do just hear rumors, that is probably true. The MSM isn't going to tell us what is going on, but at least we have the ability to communicate with people from Iran who can tell us at least something.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cali]

22. How do you know

this person is Iranian, and sorry, I disagree with what he/she said in there post. And again, for about the millionth time, yes, attacking Iran is a heinous idea; that doesn't mean we can't discuss Ahmadinejad or Iranian human rights abuses.

[cali]

20. Maybe she is from Iran and

maybe she isn't. Maybe she's male. There are widely varied Iranian positions, and it's hardly only the Guardian that has, for instance, documented that men are executed for being gay in Iran or that women are executed there for being raped. You want to endore a regime that does that, be my guest.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Heidi]

17. Welcome to DU!

:hi:

[denverbill]

24. It's nice to hear from someone who is actually there.

I agree that it isn't our place to tell Iran how to govern itself and whether or not to mingle religion and government. I believe they should be separate because mingling the two puts the power of the state behind any potential persecution of religious minorities. You see for yourself what is happening in Iraq, where parties are divided by religion. Government has to protect religious minorities. That is difficult to do when religion and government are mingled. But that is an issue for Iran to decide, not the US.

I don't know if the students are being persecuted or not, but if they are, do you agree that it is wrong for Ahmed Nijad to threaten them just because they oppose him?

[oblivious]

25. Thank you for your post and welcome to DU!

[Uncle Joe]

96. One point

If God is everywhere, God cannot be taken out of school. If God is everywhere, God is within us as well as without. Our government was born of a legacy of prior wars within Europe with people killing each other men, women and children, each side claiming to know the truth of God. Who is right and who is wrong? This is why, we do not teach God in school and leave it to the churches. This is why Bush makes many people mad here, because he is trying to take us back to the old European ways of God and government.

One other point, I believe many of our youth are violent, not because God is not in school, but because our commercial society has taken to glorifying violence. Much of this has to do with greed from corporations who want a warrior society. I believe this to be a seperate problem from having God in school.

We wish the Iranian people well, but when your leader denounces the holocaust as myth, this alarms us. We know first hand the evil of the Nazis and for someone to say this did not happen, does not reflect well with us.

[Selatius]

11. If the US government does not molest Iran, then Iran's young people will overthrow the Mullahs.

You can't bomb a nation into democracy. The people must fight for it of their own free will.

[cali]

12. No offense, but

yes, I believe that. It has nothing whatsover to do with the article however. I understand the kneejerk response to any article about Iran, but I don't think it contributes much.

[Paulie]

13. Facist President?

How interesting the rhetoric sounds like our own. Are we sure the four students that went underground because their mission is complete? :tinfoilhat:

[cali]

14. Yeah, it couldn't possibly

be anything but a CIA plot. I mean, the students couldn't be acting out of conviction, or anything. We all know that the U.S. is the only entity that commits evil in the world.

And the word is fascist- with an "s". A facist, I presume, would have an enmity toward faces.

[rman]

42. fascists on both ends of the conflict, and we the people caught in the middle

Why would fascists kill fascists? Well, they don't - it's the people caught in the middle who die.

[treestar]

18. All likely to become eligible for political asylum

The irony of our alleged fear of every Muslim - we're going to end up with a lot of them immigrating - like how we ended up with many Vietnamese immigrants, only more ironic, as they may not need special legislation - the existing legislation may cover them.

[Spinoza]

26. There is very little compassion

expressed on this board for the brave students who now feel in danger for the 'crime' of freely expressing their opinions. Can you imagine if DU operated in Iran and expressed 1/10th of the criticisms against Ahmadinejad which we all (usually deservedly) express daily against Bush? Thank God for the First Amendment.

[cali]

27. Yes, Virginia

there is a contingent on DU whose loathing of bushco and American imperialism clouds their abilities to see the bad in other nations.

[knowledgeispwr]

55. So true

Too many on DU immediately jump and say "Well Bush..." in response to any discussion or argument no matter the relevance of the Bush administration. To them, no place is that bad because we have Bush; we shouldn't be concerned with other places because we have Bush; we cannot talk about other places because we have Bush.

It's ridiculous and dumb. We shouldn't be reactionary.

[Infinite Hope]

58. AMEN!

Flawed logic and fallacies. Two things philosophically wrong with a small fraction of DU.

[barb162]

28. When I first saw this story, I wondered how long these kids had

before they got beaten and thrown in prison or worse. I am not happy that my thinking was correct.

[Henny Penny]

32. And how do you know that you were correct? n/t

[oblivious]

29. Ahmadinejad ordered that the students should go unpunished according to his staff.

Protesters later surrounded the president's car, prompting a security guard to fire a stun grenade to warn them off. Four cars in the presidential convoy collided in their haste to leave. Mr Ahmadinejad's staff later insisted he had remained calm and ordered that the students should go unpunished. But some of those present say he accused them of being paid United States agents who would be confronted.

[cali]

30. Your faith in Ahmadinejad

and in Iranian justice, is so touching.

[oblivious]

31. Do you really think Ahamadinejad has ordered them killed?

[fujiyama]

36. It doesn't matter

whether there are direct orders from him to have these people killed.

It may just be, that similar to freepers in this country, the followers are so deluded and brainwashed, they will cause violence due to their loyalty and inability to tolerate dissent.

[KAZ]

35. And your replies to responders in YOUR thread...

...demonstrates a lack of decorum. Oblivious said nothing about "faith in ...".

[oblivious]

34. Ahmadinejad's blog - his reaction to the protest: "I had a feeling of joy"

Freedom & Liberty 2006/12/13
In the Name of Almighty God, the Most Merciful, the Most Compassionate

In Amir Kabir University gathering - when a small number of individuals in the presence of the absolute majority of the university students and associates and the president of the country – with an absolute total freedom – without being worried – insulted the elected president of the people, I had a feeling of joy. Unintentionally, it reminded me the circumstances of those days and years that I was a university student; the days before revolution such as Dec 7, 1953 *. The black years of 1977 and 1978 that one could not breathe politically and criticize the secular government which was supported and protected by the west. The cost of criticizing the government was a death penalty or prison and torture. And now - in contrast - the situation is somehow that a small limited minority would disturb the peace of a meeting of a majority by insulting and even burning. But the majority – the university students and revolutionary professors – would tolerate it with dignity and benevolence – without engaging in a reprisal.

As a 1975 university student that I repeatedly experienced clashing and escaping from shah’s hostile police forces and also remembered that the cost of a small critic in regard to the ruling government was so heavy – in contrast – yesterday, when I witnessed such an impressive effect of the freedom and liberty – not only as Mahmood Ahmadi Nejad – I did not have a bad feeling in my heart concerning any one, but as a person who serves the nation, a president and a political chief executive of the country, I proudly admired our great liberator revolution and praised Almighty God.

http://www.ahmadinejad.ir/

[fujiyama]

37. LOL

He has a blog in a country where those that blog in dissent are often punished.

I can't believe any DUers would believe such blatant propaganda from a theocratic fuck head like Ahmed-jad.

[oblivious]

38. Did I say I believe it? I have no more reason to believe him that I do the propaganda against him.

But I think it is interesting that he puts down his thoughts regularly for the world to read. And he seems to speak his mind so this could be a true expression of his feelings. His words during the protest indicate that this could be what he thinks.

I somehow doubt that it would ever be published in the mainstream US unless his words were able to fit into the demon template - you know "theocratic fuck-head", that sort of thing.

[fujiyama]

39. Defend

his demagoguery all you want. And if you think these are his "true thoughts" you are indeed buying the propaganda. You think a political head of state (that too one with extreme theocratic and authoritarian tendencies) believes in freedom? He is a politician and a slick one. I'll give him that. But he is also obviously full of shit.

His "holocaust conference" was enough to get an idea of the kind of person he is. He's a nasty person and has no concept of freedom.

[oblivious]

40. Well you haven't given me any reason to believe you either.

But at least you didn't insist that it be removed. I think it's useful to follow what he says to look for consistency and contradiction.

[cali]

41. That's because

he is a theocratic fuck head. I'd no more waste my time defending Ahmadinejad than bushco.

[Lilith Velkor]

43. Welcome to my world, Iranian students

Fascist presidents with religious pretensions sure do fucking suck, don't they?

Don't you wish those assholes would just go pray and leave you alone? Me too.

[cali]

44. I find all the comparisons of bush to ahmadinejad

and the state of civil liberties in the U.S. to the state of civili liberties in Iran, fascile.

Oh, and I'd much rather live here than there. Even more so because I'm female.

[Lilith Velkor]

45. True - Bush is much more dangerous

and the U.S. has a much higher percentage of its population imprisoned.

But yeah, being female is alright here...as long as you have enough money.

[cali]

46. bush has a greater capability to do danger to the world at large.

That is true. bush has done greater damage to the world at large. That is true. Civil rights are far better in the U.S. That is also true.

One more time: In Iran, freedom of speech is very limited for reporters, bloggers, and activists. That is well documented by HRW and AI, not to mention other sources. Women's rights are limited. Your remark about how its Ok to be a woman here if you're wealthy is just dumb. Yeah, it's better to have money, but in Iran, women's rights are abbrogated. Stoning for a rape victim. Hmm.

[oblivious]

47. Can you tell us when the last stoning-for-being-raped took place?

[cali]

48. I can tell you

of a recent sentencing of a woman in Iran to death by stoning. I remember signing the petition last summer to try and save her. Her name is Malak Ghorbany. Here's a link to a story about her. There's also a link to a video posted on youtube about a 2004 stoning of a teenage girl. I do know that very recently 2 young men were hung for being gay. I'll try and find a link to that story.
http://savemalak.googlepages.com/
The good news is that pressure does seem to have an effect. There was huge pressure from the international community regarding Malak Ghorbany and the Supreme Court of Iran is reviewing her case.

[cubs4life]

49. Cali, don't waste your time talking to people that would

defend someone like Ahmednejad. It is a monumental waste of time.

These are people that would have defended Hitler by saying something that approximates ... "Just because Hitler has moved tanks into Poland doesn't mean he's going to take over the country. We don't know what his real intentions are because we can't translate German."

It is absolutely amazing to watch the reaction to the madman in Iran here on DU. Just because we have a madman of our own in Bush is no reason to enable another wacko in power. In fact, we should be more sensitive to these types of individuals so as human beings we don't continue to make the same mistakes.

ANYONE that advocates wiping another country off the map is a danger to all of mankind. End of story. As human beings we should not differentiate as to the degree of madness, we should speak out against it in a loud and clear voice.

[cali]

52. Actually,

I don't see either Iran or Ahmadinejad as a credible threat to the U.S. or for that matter to Israel. Yes, they're a regional power and provide funds and support to their proxies, but really, what could Iran do that would constitute presenting a real danger to the world. I have to say, sadly that I believe that bush is more of a danger than Ahmadinejad. Having said that, I won't refuse to condemn human rights abuses in Iran, or anywhere else.

[Buck Rabbit]

61. But why is it necessary to twist and exagerate a vile

conservatives positions, when what he actually says is bad enough?

You brought up Hitler, and the parallel here is it looks like there is a process going on in all forms of the media to vilify and dehumanize a whole people in an attempt to justify a genocidal attack on them. Pardon us if we are leary of yet another prepping of the populace with baby's thrown from the incubators stories and news of the latest "atrocities" being reported by groups like The National Iranian Kurdistan Front in preparation for the next war. Been Chalabi'd before and it doesn't feel good.

What's his name is an anti-semitic holocaust denier and a religious conservative; that is an asshole in my book.

But where is the honesty in trying to portray a stated position of a democratic political regime change as a call for genocide against the people of Israel. Though I believe in a two state Israeli/Palestinian solution, some others and not just assholes like this guy, do believe in an one state solution with democratic voting privileges for all regardless of race or creed. If you read his full position not the faux news sized translation this is what he is calling for. He wants to use democracy (and a population advantage) to do politically what would be impossible to do militarily. Single state, full voting rights is a pipe dream anyway, he is in a fantasy world if he truly believes that will ever be allowed to happen.

The two state solution still has the most practical chance at success imho.

--------------------------
edited: cause someone kindly pointed out my spelling sucks. I blame firefox 2 spell checker for underlining in red, a color difficult for species with pink eyes to pick up.

[cali]

66. Although I agree with some of what you said;

there's certainly villification of the Ahmadinejad and the Iranian gov't going on, there a couple of things I'd like to point out:

As Juan Cole makes clear, Ahmadinejad is not calling for a democratic one state solution; he's calling for an Islamic state in all of Israel and Palestine. That's hardly the same thing. And it is, of course, not something that would happen without appalling violence, something that Ahmadinejad surely knows.

I don't mean to embarass you, but the spelling is Holocaust.

[Buck Rabbit]

70. Thanks for the catch, spelling corrected.

He actually did state he wanted the new Palestine created in a democratic election allowing all Jews and Palestinians in the combined territory to vote. Sure he looks to create an Islamic state and it is easy for him to use the Democracy card because he knows who has the demographics.

I think it is posturing and I think using "democracy" as a threat against Israel is a weapon in his war of rhetoric with Bush. Bush says "spreadin' democracy", Ahmadinejad says okay lets use democracy to create an Islamic Palestinian state. But the media translates and reports it as a threat to nuke Israel. With the help of the media Bush is winning the war of words in English. I suppose the other asshole is kicking his butt in Farsi.

[oblivious]

50. Yes, but you mentioned 'stoning for a rape victim'. When was the last stoning? What year?

[cali]

51. Oh for fuck's sake

Believe what you want to believe. I provided you with a link to a video of a girl being stoned to death in 2004- ancient history to you I'm sure.
I really don't have any use for people like you. You couldn't give a shit about human rights abuses if they don't fit with your political views. If the US is responsible it's terrible (as it truly is) but if Iran commits terrible human rights abuses (as they do), you refuse to acknowledge it.

That's what I call the ultimate in hypocricy, and utterly DISGUSTING.

[ShortnFiery]

53. Yes, and the next famous Iranian dissident in the USA will be named

Cha-LA-Bi oh oh oh oh! Iran may be ruled by a brutal dictator but, especially now, that is NOT our problem in the USA. Our problem is the Dictator wannabe in OUR White House.

[cali]

54. Sorry, I care about

human rights abuses whether they happen here, in Darfur, in Gaza or the WB, in Tibet, in Darfur or anywhere else. I'm not going to stop caring because of that bastard in the White House.

[ShortnFiery]

56. Understood

However, if we don't MAKE our incoming Democratic Leaders take a heightened interests in providing checks and balances to An Executive Branch out of control, we may be worried about "purges" in the future. Yes, it's that bad HERE.

Right now, we can give money to Amnesty International and track on human rights violations. However, we won't be able to help the Authoritarian Rule in Iran if this Administrations Policies are fully realized.

I'm curious about the original incident and timing of this UK media report. Sorry, although I know the Iranian ruler is brutal, I fear that if we don't make our representatives counter this administration's fascist proposals, we all may live in fear of being carried away in the night. :(

[oblivious]

65. Your link was not about a stoning, nor was it about a rape victim.

You would have some credibility if you paid equal attention to other countries committing similar human rights abuses. Demonizing Iran in thread after thread while appearing to remain silent about similar abuses in neighbouring countries at the same time the Bush and Olmert administrations are talking up potential war with Iran makes you look like a bit of a, what's the word...

edit: spelling

[cali]

68. Oh, I do so apologize. It was about the hanging of a sixteen

year old girl for, I believe, crimes against chastity. Gee, she surely deserved that brutal death, the little slut. Your parsing of this tragedy is revolting.

And you are full of it. Either you're unaware of the threads I've posted on Supermax Prisons in the U.S. being torture, on anti-Muslim bigotry in the U.S., on Darfur, and many other topics, or you're lying.
I regularly criticize Israel's violation of human rights in Gaza and the WB. Click on virtually any thread in I/P.

You truly named yourself with stunning accuracy. You are indeed oblivious.

I won't expect an acknowledgemt that you erred about what I post about, but I will prove you were wrong about it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=160127&mesg_id=160140

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=159836&mesg_id=159838

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2847375

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2901649

And there are plenty more where those came from.

[nolabels]

71. When was the last slaying of a gay man in the US, or ...........

the last time some racist white boys drug a black man to his death behind their pickup. When the last time some police shot to ribbons people just because they could? Or just you personally, struck out at something because it made you angry. We all seem blind to violence that's in our own backyard but are too eager to harp on it somewhere else. We, the people of the US have been indoctrinated and numbed to violence that surrounds us. We cannot expect the rest of the world to be what we ourselves are unwilling to become.

[oblivious]

72. My point was that there has been a moratorium on stoning since Dec 2002.

And that I was not aware of any woman having been stoned for being raped. So I wanted to know if there was something I had missed. (I am aware that people are still being sentenced to stoning, because the law is still technically on the books, but that particular sentence is no longer carried out, thanks largely to the efforts of EU human rights groups.)

[nolabels]

74. Thanks for the clarification

The tribal nature of the area dictates their social ways might seem backward to us but that repel of outside is what kept that way life viable for so many centuries. You cannot deny the rocks existence because it gets in your way but with better knowledge and the tools you can go around the rock.

The logic the world uses to accomplish things often seems crazy but failure to reason why things happen like they do can make the person encountering them just as crazy.

[cali]

73. Do you understand at all the difference

between the unlawful murder of a person because of their gender preference, by a group of individuals and the state executing a person for being gay? The two aren't even remotely comparable.

And I frequently write about injustice here. Last week I wrote a post calling Supermax prisons torture. I got a fair amount of shit for that by people who disagreed. Now I'm getting shit about posting about human rights abuses in Iran. Too bad to both sides. I'll damn well post what I want to.

[GemMom]

85. Link to video of stoning

http://www.apostatesofislam.com/media/stoning.htm

[oblivious]

63. That video is not about a stoning. So why are you presenting it thus?

Atefeh Rajabi Sahaaleh was hung as the information to the right of the video explains.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ateqeh_Rajabi

Malak Ghorbany was sentenced for adultery, not rape.

There has been a moratorium on stoning in Iran since December 2002.

[cali]

69. I erred.

I should have said execution, not stoning. And Malak Ghorbany has indeed been sentenced to be stoned for adultery, so clearly it's still a sentence that is used. She was sentenced after 2002. And yes, women have been stoned in Iran, and whether it's stoning or hanging for crimes against chastity- which has indeed included rape, or whether it's hanging for gay men- and that's happened very recently, those are still not apocryphal events equivalent to the stories out of Kuwait prior to the first Gulf War.

I am adamently against any invasion or bombing or threats against Iran or any other nation. I am concerned about human rights- as the links on my other post to you make clear.

[Lilith Velkor]

60. You seem to be misunderstanding my point here

Do you think it's wrong to empathize with Iranian dissidents? They struggle against the very things you condemn.

Also, "having enough money" is not the same thing as "being wealthy." Criticizing remarks I have not made is just asinine.

[cali]

62. I don't think I've misunderstood you at all.

Your posts are quite clear.

[Lilith Velkor]

67. Thank you.

Happy Holidays to you. :toast:

[LeftishBrit]

82. I agree with all this

Bush has more power over the world at large and as such is dangerous to more people. But that doesn't make Ahmadinejad a good leader, or alter the fact that his regime is an oppressive theocracy.

And that doesn't mean that I think the USA should invade Iran. There are lots of bad leaders, and it's not an excuse for invading their countries and trying to set up an empire. But at the same time it's not a reason for pretending that these leaders are good or harmless.

[knowledgeispwr]

57. No comparison on civil rights.

Civil rights are much better and are better protected in the United States than Iran. There is really no comparison. Doing so belittles to plight of the Iranians and we come off as whiners with no concept of the world outside our borders.

[ShortnFiery]

59. Yeah, and we're winning the war on terra :P

We can compare all we wish. If we continue to laud how great our freedoms are while we allow a wannabe Dictator to rip our Constitution to shreds, then we, like Benjamin Franklin claims, don't DESERVE our freedoms. Freedoms that my Father and Brother shed blood to defend in WWII and Vietnam respectively.

I live in the USA, not Iran. It's horrible and I'll up my donations to Amnesty International. However, as wonderful as our freedoms in this nation STILL (at the moment) are as compared to those within the Middle East, Iran is a sovereign state. As a COUNTRY we have no right to bomb or invade to have a regime change in Iran.

A regime change in Iran is up to ONLY the Iranian people.

[Lurking Dem]

75. Who here has advocated bombing Iran?

Did I miss something? I can't hate this vile motherfucker and think that human rights in Iran is despicable and should be addressed without wanting to bomb them???

[knowledgeispwr]

79. I guess not.

I guess you can't according to some people.

To a few on DU, you are either with us or against us. You agree with everything they say or you're with Bush. You never have anything to say negative about any other country because we have Bush (apparently Bush being president means every single last American has lost not only all moral authority but also the right to point out wrong-doings in other places around the world). If you say that negative thing about that country anyway, you are a freeper infiltrating DU and thus you believe Bush is the best thing ever and you want to bomb their land back to the proverbial stone age.

[knowledgeispwr]

78. What?

What does "winning the war on terra" have anything to do with what I said? And who said anything about bombing Iran or invading it? I sure didn't.

What is this regime change business? How did I say anything to imply we should instigate one. I did not. You do not help your point of view by putting words in people's mouth.

[Infinite Hope]

80. "A regime change in Iran is up to ONLY the Iranian people."

Exactly. I don't think the previous poster said anything contrary to that. What they said is that while our rights are being destroyed, Iran is currently in a worse situation. That wasn't minimizing what's going on here. What it's saying is that this thread is about Iran. Iranian students working for further freedom should be supported as your quote indicates you agree with. What doesn't make sense is people minimizing the plight of Iranians by saying "Well, we have Bush." Yes, we're in a bad way. That doesn't mean we shouldn't support movements for freedom within other nations. If anything, it only enforces the importance of supporting movements inside other nations. We should support the students. That does not minimize how horrible Bush is. That does not in any way mean military support. For some on DU to constantly revert to such irrelevant arguments shows a few things:
1)They are so rightfully upset at our situationt hat they wrongfully distract from vital movements and issues in other parts of the world.
2)The Bush years have scarred at least a segment of society to the point that conspiracy is seen in every act - a testiment to the fact that corruption is so rampant that it's now seen as the most likely scenario.

That being said, liberty in Iran, achieved at the hands of the students, should be praised. And most of us on DU will continue to praise them.

[Lilith Velkor]

99. Excuse me

1) Were you not paying attention when Bush threatened Iran? How are we to be taken seriously if we let him get away with war crimes?

2) Haved you ever heard of Jose Padilla?

Adopting a hypocritical position on human rights does nobody any good.

[Lilith Velkor]

64. Who do you mean by "we," Kemo Sabe?

Some seem to have no concept of the world *inside* those borders.

[Lurking Dem]

76. You are aware

that women in other countries want things we don't have like birth certificates. Right?

Simple things like being considered a person instead of property and not being married off at 9 to a 60 year old is a *little* different than what women generally fight for here.

[knowledgeispwr]

77. No use

Sometimes there's no use in continuing to engage a person when they are set on not being reasonable.

[Infinite Hope]

81. Exactly. Ideally, there'd be a DU boycott...

on responding to reactionary people who are incapable of even having a discussion baseball and why their team lost without it somehow reverting back to Bush and all the Hell he has indeed wrought. :sarcasm:

It seems like every time most DUers want a thoughtful discussion on a topic, somehow a rare DUer will interject with some nonsnsical and irrelevant comment and then both elements - thought and discussion - are lost. That's not a very effective way of dealing with issues in a day and age where the problem is a lack of thought dialogue. Sometimes I wonder if THEY are the freepers interjecting on DU, preventing rational discourse and entangling us in in-fighting, leaving any thought, solution, and action Dead-On-Arrival.

[Lilith Velkor]

83. Hrm.

"women in other countries want things we don't have like birth certificates"

That doesn't even make any sense. Are you trying to say that a birth certificate proves that somebody is a person?

Does a birth certificate make you bulletproof and emotionless, so that gang violence and police brutality have no effect?

I am not in any way belittling what the Iranians are up against, I'm just saying we, the citizens of the U.S., need to be sure the same thing doesn't happen here, and that's kind of hard to do when you have the prison population exploding, and people getting tortured inside, and a lot of people on the outside are perfectly okay with it. No-knock warrants, no problem.

That attitude is how fascism takes root, and it's been around for much longer than the Bush adiministration.

Unfortunately, all we can do for the Iranian dissidents is wish them luck, which is what I did. If that upsets you, too bad.

[GemMom]

84. in response...

Well, we don't believe in stoning or cutting off body parts as forms of punishment in this country. People, esp. women, are summarily and quickly killed for moral crimes there - they aren't taking up space in jails.

[Lilith Velkor]

86. Yeah, cops here only abuse women who deserve it

In fact, we're so fucking morally superior, we should be allowed to commit war crimes anytime we feel like it.

Oh, wait...we did.

Given that, I'd expect anyone with as much as a sliver of decency would shut the fuck up about other countries, but there are many who don't even have that. Pity.

[ShortnFiery]

87. Bravo!

Please remember that anytime "our government" gets involved in changing regimes THE PEOPLE end up with scores of dead citizens and just another THUG DICTATOR. However, the new BOSS is a puppet of US Foreign Policy so that makes it right. :(

No, I encourage you folks to, like me, work through the international humanitarian agencies to help people who are oppressed. But for Heaven's sake, don't rally for the US Government, especially now under King George, to tamper with foreign policy matters to exclude even TALKING WITH them.

Hey, if you want to talk Human Rights violations, how about protest "most favored nation" status that we have with Communist China?

My point: Don't get our government involved in regime change or it will blow back to bite us in the ass.

[Lurking Dem]

88. There is a dinstinct difference

between individual acts which are criminal and/or immoral and codified repression by governmental authority.

[ShortnFiery]

89. Doesn't one former Soviet Union Country that the USA is buddies with

and extradites terrorist suspects to for torture, BOIL PRISONERS IN HOT OIL?

Yes, let's hyper-focus on Iran because that will make King George and the Neo-Cons bomb the shit out of their country. That will help the fearful and oppressed students, right? :puke:

Let's focus our attention on aid organizations and human rights groups but NOT rally our government to change their foreign policy ... well, save for censuring China perhaps? ;)

[Lurking Dem]

90. I have no intention

of playing Follow the Bouncing Strawmen with you.

Have a nice day.

[cali]

91. Your outrage that anyone dares talk

about abuses in another country because we commit abuses in this country, is just absurd. As for your continual harping on China's abuses, I haven't noticed you starting any threads about it.

[ShortnFiery]

97. Don't put words into my mouth and also realize you are bolstering

the Neo-Cons by getting all excited about this NOW. Herr Chimperor would love nothing more than to bomb the shit out of Iran. No, I'm not outraged but believe that you are being manipulated. If you like that sort of thing, enjoy. ;)

[Lilith Velkor]

93. Indeed there is

The former is quite often a euphemism for the latter.

eta: "a few bad apples"

[Lurking Dem]

94. Ubiquitous and codified are not synonymous.

[Lilith Velkor]

95. A fact the victims should find most comforting

...or not.

[ileus]

92. What were they thinking? That they lived in America?

[ShortnFiery]

98. No, the Chinese who are living from hand to mouth are

thinking that, don't cha know? Why, they are now our *best buddies* that our government would NOT dare to censure lest they call in our debts. :scared: :P