Science told: Hands off Gay Sheep

[VegasWolf]

<snip>
SCIENTISTS are conducting experiments to change the sexuality of “gay” sheep in a programme that critics fear could pave the way for breeding out homosexuality in humans.

The technique being developed by American researchers adjusts the hormonal balance in the brains of homosexual rams so that they are more inclined to mate with ewes.

The research, at Oregon State University in the city of Corvallis and at the Oregon Health and Science University in Portland, has caused an outcry. Martina Navratilova, the lesbian tennis player who won Wimbledon nine times, and scientists and gay rights campaigners in Britain have called for the project to be abandoned.

</Snip>

I was tired of hearing about Saddam, here's some interesting research.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-2524408,00.html

[durtee librul]

1. Chimpy will be

sooooo disappointed....

[Swede]

2. Those rams choose to be homosexual.

Just ask any bible thumper.

[VegasWolf]

7. That's very baaaaad! nt

[LeftyMom]

3. Old news. Posted about this back in August.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/LeftyMom/63

[VegasWolf]

6. Yes, but this is a new article. Apparently this research is still raising hackles as well it

should.

[LeftyMom]

8. I know. I'm glad to see it discussed by the wider community.

It's horrific both because of the lack of care for the animals involved and for the homophobic intent.

[alfredo]

4. the hormone levels are just a

manifestation of orientation. It isn't what makes a person who they are.

what will the long term effects of pumping a person full of these hormones? Anyway, is it for the patient or for the religious fanatics?

[WindRavenX]

5. yuppers

Sexual orientation is more than just who we sleep with. It's in the mind and the heart.

[Deja Q]

11. I keep getting told love and sex should be separate.

In short, I'm confused.

In long, it is about the other person's happiness above one's own - therefore anybody I have lust for is a different scenario than who I love.

[WindRavenX]

14. they don't have to be mutually exclusive

The problem is, people automatically assume that who you sleep with is what your orientation is-- a man could sleep with a man, one a one time stand, and not be self-identified as "gay". It's why people are 100% wrong to confuse pedophilia (like during the catholic church scandals) with being gay.

Often times, they are the same. But they don't *have* to be, nor does using who you sleep with as a guide to gauge your orientation.

[krispos42]

22. That is very true. I have the equipment to 'give' or 'receive'

Not to be overly blunt...

I can in theory 'give' to either gender, and 'recieve' from any man. But I know the gender that I'm thinking of when I'm fantasizing, and it's the one of lush feminine curves, not hairy chests. :-)

[Strathos]

32. And we are completely opposite LOL

Cause those hairy chests get me going baby. ;-)

[alfredo]

18. Homosexuality as a disorder to be treated with drugs.

Parents compelling their children to go on hormones to "cure" them seems odious to me.

[aquart]

12. Anyone wanna eat tasty male hormone lamb?

The wool might be okay, but I'd be damned nervous about that mutton entering the food chain.

[alfredo]

19. Will they say it is "virtually" identical to untreated sheep,

just like they say about cloned beef.

[aquart]

23. But I'm not unnerved by cloned beef.

I am freaked by hormone-loaded mutton.

[alfredo]

34. Assurances of safety from this FDA should not be believed.

They have proved time and time again that they will put the profits of industry over the safety of the people.

[VegasWolf]

9. The 10% statistic seems fairly common across the mammalian species. Cetaceans

are notorious for this behavior. Maybe the evangelists will "cure" the entire planet.

[CoffeeCat]

10. Hormones????

What is going on? Everyone knows that these sheep CHOOSE to be gay. It's
a lifestyle choice of which these sheep have total control. Right?

Why are they using hormones? This sends a very dangerous message that
being gay is hereditary and a natural part of our world.

It's not!! It's a choice!! It just has to be a choice!!!

Someone needs to halt the hormone injections and send these rebellious
baaaaaaad sheep to a nice heterosexual camp--where they can learn to
swim, play horseshoes and make love to sheep of the opposite sex.

Right? Right!

/sarcasm off

[waiting for hope]

13. Hey - what was the tip off that the

rams were gay? Did they prefer Pajama Party over Cats? Or perhaps it might have been the fact they would have rather gone shopping for new shoes instead of watching a football game....I must say, a bit perplexed over it.:crazy:

On Edit: oops, just read the article - still, I was being a "tad" bit sarcastic.

[Lipton64]

15. That's assuming of course homosexuality is even "inbred"

There's research saying things both ways. Studies published in prestigious journals say that it's inbred in humans and others say that it's a choice. I don't know what to make of it personally.

I just think personally that we should let these people live their lives as they see fit without having to worry about getting lynched on their way to buy groceries.

[Zorra]

16. It appears to me that the result that these scientists wish to obtain

is a blatant "fuck ewe".

[heliarc]

17. Yes, but as a cheesemaker all I really want to know ...

Is if the homosexual Sheep will be able to give milk!

Then maybe we'll be sure that the science can't save us from this twisted idiocy about homosexuality.

Ugh... leave the animals out of this petty moralizing.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

20. Great...So we evolve from "gay is a choice" to "gay is a birth defect"

:eyes:

[TechBear_Seattle]

58. You do realize that if "gay is a birth defect" then...

The Talibangelicals are up a river of solid waste with insufficient means of locomotion with regards to gay rights. If homosexuality is not a choice, it can not be a sin. Nor can it be an excuse for withholding fundamental civil rights, like housing, jobs and marriage.

[VegasWolf]

67. Don't toy with the evangelicals! They get confused easily enough!

:toast:

[GoddessOfGuinness]

91. The fundies will continue to push that it's a choice...

regardless of scientific evidence to the contrary. Unless hell freezes, or somesuch... :)

[krispos42]

21. Great. We'll make the crowded countries gay, and the empty ones straight

Should clear that population problem right up.

<sigh> my world is getting weirder and weirder by the day...

[sutz12]

24. It seems to me that if being gay was genetic....

it would disappear, since theoretically gay people don't breed, until recent years anyway.

The ratio of gay people seems fairly constant, and homosexuals have been with us since time immemorable, or always.

I'm all for leaving gay people alone. For the most part, they leave me alone. :)

And BTW, the whole idea of 'curing' homosexuality is a rightwing fundie chemera. I would assume that any 'cured' homosexual would probably be unhappy and disatisfied with their lives, since that basicallly requires a personality transplant.

[Hekate]

25. Actually, traditionally gays and lesbians have married and had families...

...In traditional cultures where being unmarried was not really a choice and marriages were an arrangement to consolidate properties and perpetuate family lines, no one ever thought to ask the young people what their preference was. Their preferences were not exactly relevant. And they perforce had children because it was their duty.

Yukio Mishima, late Japanese writer, is one example from modern times.

It may be of scientific interest to figure out all kinds of things, like where gayness comes from, but I think it would be a great loss to treat it as a birth defect and work to eliminate it. Human culture benefits from diversity in manifest and uncountable ways.

Hekate

[SoCalDem]

27. and the human race is not exactly in danger of fading away.

LOTS of people do not procreate....not just gay people.

In nature, sometimes only one male has the "breeding rights" , no matter how many males may be lurking around..Non-breeding males either have to leave the group and try to start their own , or just not mate with the females. Does that make them less male?? nope.. It just makes them resolutely cranky...or perhaps there is some innate mechanism that allows them to accept the fact that there are no females for them, and they accept that as their fate...

[DBoon]

42. There may be a positive selection for homosexuality

Uncles and aunts without children of their own can assist those with children in child-raising.

It's not just your genes that matter, the ones of you blood relatives matter as well

[Diresu]

47. I don't know about that

"I would assume that any 'cured' homosexual would probably be unhappy and disatisfied with their lives, since that basicallly requires a personality transplant"

I'm not so sure about a personality transplant being needed. The ONLY consistent, absolute difference between a gay and straight man is what triggers him to become sexually aroused. Even though it might be true that gay men tend to be more effeminate this isn't always true and there are plenty of very effeminate men who are absolutely straight. Paul Stanley from KISS comes to mind. As for past experiences, I guess it would be like when something gets really boring and something new comes along. Gays would suddenly find each other boring and women new and exciting.... which would make them not gay.

I can only think of one downside. Do we really need to compete for women against a bunch of guys who...

A) Are meticulous about their appearance and grooming
B) Don't mind talking to women about their feelings
C) Enjoy a lot of the same things women do

NO NO NO!!! We don't need any extra competition. :) Seriously, this might be trouble.

[mondo joe]

72. You need to better appreciate Kin Selection.

It's not necessary for an individual to breed for its genes to succeed.

[Vidar]

26. Homsexuality to be "cured" by steroid patch for pregnant women.

How can anyone see a downside to that? :sarcasm:

[donheld]

29. Fundimentalism to be "cured" by steroid patch for pregnant women.

Now that sounds better.

[xchrom]

28. sigh -- there's really no end to it.

so will they erase my memories as well?

provided that hormones work, which i doubt, will they make it so i don't remember the fucking and how good it was with my lovers?

added: would you consent to doctors giving your young baby or fetus hormones?
mind you it's probably not one hundred persent effective.

[NashVegas]

30. Absofuckinglutely Not!

Nature has its own "intelligent design" when it comes to hormones. They should never be taken unnecessarily, IMO.

[NashVegas]

31. When Science Is This Bitingly Arrogant, It Deserves to be Denounced

Professor Charles Roselli, the Health and Science University biologist leading the research, defended the project.

...

Potentially, the techniques could one day be adapted for human use, with doctors perhaps being able to offer parents pre-natal tests to determine the likely sexuality of offspring or a hormonal treatment to change the orientation of a child.

Roselli has said he would be “uncomfortable” about parents choosing sexuality, but argues that it is up to policy makers to legislate on questions of ethics.

This is the kind of "scientific" thinking that makes me want to pop a vessel. Ignore the ethics and when the results of the work are abused - and they will be - shrug and say, 'hey don't blame me, I'm just a scientist.'

[Strathos]

33. Doesn't this create a bigger dilemma for "Christians"

(the quotes are for those people that consider themselves christian but act the exact opposite)

If it is proven that it's genetic or hormonal, that means that God wants us gay. I mean, God makes no mistakes right? So, if God makes us gay with an extra shot or lesser shot of hormones or a very colorful gene, how can the Christians then say it's a choice and how can they then try to "correct" something God has made?

I'm not sure how I feel about it.

I'm a 40 year old gay man and love who I am. I've been in a relationship for 14 years. I can't imagine being the person I am and not being gay.

It's just another way to divide us and make us feel inferior and like we don't deserve the rights that every other person in the world gets.

I hate homophobic assholes.

[UncleSepp]

82. Not really.

The argument as I imagine it would be that God creates some of us without the sense of hearing, but it does not mean that God does not want us to attempt to restore that sense of hearing. There may be people who choose to be deaf despite the existence of medical treatments to restore or improve hearing, but that is their choice to buy into the deaf agenda, support deaf culture, and remain deaf.

[wordpix]

35. are those rams gay or are they kept away from the ewes?

Just wondering because the "gay" rams might not be gay if they were penned in with the girls.

[VegasWolf]

36. No, this is not a jail experiment. 10% of the rams will only mount other rams. nt

[rebel with a cause]

60. Don't know if this information has changed or not,

but for many years I was told that the only animal that could be impregnated by man was a sheep ewe. The pregnancy only lasted for a few months, then the ewe would miscarriage. When I asked how they knew this, I was told that it was because shepherds got lonely. Then I heard that research was also done to prove it. Poor sheep, always getting something done to them.

In this case, perhaps all the ewes were busy with some of the researchers. Just joking. :silly:

[fortyfeetunder]

37. This is bordering on "we have nothing else to do in research"

How about solving the hunger problem?

[TankLV]

40. And whatever you do, DON'T look at what's stored on their personal computers!...

[VegasWolf]

38. Actually hormones make perfect sense. The effects of hormonal levels on

brain chemistry are well documented. The neurotransmitters of the brain are electro-chemical devices. Certain hormonal levels appear to be genetically linked. A very interesting fact about hormones is that they are titered, that is they appear in different quantities across individuals of the same species. They are not an on/off switch, rather they influence behavior in graduated steps. This study finds about 10% of the rams are solidly homosexual. I would imagine that another 10% rams would be solidly heterosexual. This would imply that the norms ( both average and mean ) are bisexual to a lesser or greater degree. Even in humans, no one complains about watching two girls getting it on.

If they come out with a "Stop Being Gay Patch" that you could buy like a nicotine patch, will they color the patch pink?

[Diresu]

39. Not to take the side of the Fundies but...

I don't see anything wrong with "curing" homosexuality as long as it is completely voluntary. The religious fundies have been saying for years that gay people choose homosexuality and the response from gays has always been, "NOBODY would chose this lifestyle." When science develops a cure (and they will) and if people want it let them have it. And when science develops some sort of hormone patch or whatever that women can wear during pregnancy it is their baby and their right.

It would be weird to see gay rights advocates marching around with signs saying, "No Hormone Patches! It's a child, not a choice."

The world is going to get strange on this one.

My 2 cents.

[VegasWolf]

41. For the sake of argument, I will take the other side, primarily because I never end up

siding with fundies. The building blocks that science would have that would supposedly "cure" homosexuality are the core mechanisms of the brain itself. Hormones, neurotransmitters, RNA binding, cortex topology, neural specific linking are all part of who we are. All mathematics, music, emotions like love and war, belief in a god, etc, are all centered in this little lump of gray matter. Changing the brain is changing the very essence of what a person is, and who he believes he is. This is a scary proposition.

As you say, there are some tormented souls who might want to try this "cure", but I would certainly recommend against using this on a vast scale, especially on people who are solid in their self-identity. For them, this could only lead to misery. For the tormented souls, I don't know if they would better off taking a "cure" or striving to fix our society. American society is so insanely backward when it comes to sexuality that it is not even laughable any longer.

[Diresu]

46. Devils advocate I see 8-)

Changing someone's sexuality would alter their sense of self, but that is something society will grow used to over the 21st and 22nd centuries. Even if powerful interest groups had the ability to slow down research or drive it underground no one has ever been able to stop science for long. If Roselli's peer reviewed study proves to be accurate you can expect tens of millions of dollars to pour in and every sex researcher around the world will jump on the gravytrain. In 20 or 30 years scientists will have a cure for homosexuality in humans. If activists stand in the way maybe tack on another 10 or 20 years. People will be able to get "cured" if they wish and moms will be able to wear a "hormone patch" or whatever is developed if they chose to. As much as some people might find it offensive to cure homosexuals there isn't a mom on this planet that wouldn't take a few simple, inexpensive precautions during pregnancy if they would stop homosexuality or transexuality from developing in her child.

[VegasWolf]

49. Yes, but my point is there is no simple "gay hormone". Nicotine patches

work because they block the chemo-receptors that the body has built up as a consequence of its alkaloid addiction. Interfering with complex behavior patterns may have all kinds of unexpected side effects. Altering complex behavioral patterns which are deeply entrenched and part of a person's persona should be undertaken extremely carefully. I damn sure don't want some
rolling-on-the-floor church injecting people with a drug. The article is looking at a set of hormones that are potentially altering the sexuality of the rams. I am sure that any treatment would involve both physicians and pyschologists. In humans, as scientists dink with people's deep seated sexuality, extreme care needs to be taken. I am certainly not against the research, but I don't believe that an Occam's razor exists that fine to modify human sexuality without disturbing the individual. The "cure" may be far worse than the "diesease"!

Not sure where you are pulling up the quote the " In 20 or 30 years scientists will have a cure for homosexuality in humans." I would like to see some serious research to back that up. My undergraduate work was in Physiology. I have heard of no such claims as you make. I am curiously awaiting.

For example, take the ultimate male hormone testosterone. Studies show that smoking decreases testosterone levels which in turn decreases sexual drive. No studies have shown even a single correlation between smoking more and increasing one's gayness. Those smokers! They should quit now and for more than one reason!

I have no objections to research of the brain, I am all for it. We studied cats looking for mammalian time clock sensors. It is very interesting stuff.

As far as worrying about what the funders think, who really cares? People are getting sick and tired of their holier than thou attitudes and realizing that they are nothing more than modern day snake oil salesmen.

Instead of "curing" homosexuality, apparently a natural phenomena across the species, perhaps we should opt to "cure" society instead, to be not so afraid of things that are different.

[Diresu]

53. I hear what you are saying but...

Nicotine patches work because they block the chemo-receptors that the body has built up as a consequence of its alkaloid addiction. Altering complex behavioral patterns which are deeply entrenched and part of a person's persona should be undertaken extremely carefully

I have no idea what the specific process would be or why it would work. I have read enough to know that it strongly appears that the sexual identity of all higher invertabrates emanates from the Hypothalamus. If there is a hormonal irregularity or disruption during the early part of a pregnancy (specifically first trimester) development may be dramatically hindered. This is why it is possible for identical twins to have the same genes but completely different sexual identities. Because of positioning or some other factor one twin may receive a normal level of hormones, the other may not. There is a very famous case that has been well researched. If you Google Hershberger triplets you can read about it.

Although having a cure in just 20 or 30 years might be a difficult thing to fathom I believe it is a strong possibility. Most people will tell you that sexuality is complex, but they are including all of the factors related to love, experience, society, etc. The root arousal trigger of liking men or women is probably very simple. The brain shouldn't need to dedicate that much space to something as binary as sex preference. To back the "binary" portion of that statement up one recent study claims there is no such thing as male bisexuality. There is no degree or range, men are one way or the other. Here is a link to the NY Times article but you can find it anywhere. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/05/health/05sex.html?ei=5088&en=5a82f18cadf2ad83&ex=1278216000&adxnnl=1&pagewanted=print&adxnnlx=1167627941-raEKnfZ/l3H0Q188q7qO8w
If sexuality comes from the hypothalamus and Roselli can turn gay sheep straight by merely injecting hormones into a specific part of it a "cure" probably isn't that many decades off. The money is going to start pouring in and researchers around the world will be going full throttle. However long it takes to find the solution you can expect another 10 years tacked on for FDA approval in the USA.

Instead of "curing" homosexuality, apparently a natural phenomena across the species, perhaps we should opt to "cure" society instead, to be not so afraid of things that are different.

Society won't be making the call at least in the United States and Western Europe. Hundreds of millions of people will make their own individual decisions. Many gay people will opt for a cure, and many others will not. I'm not gay and I have no idea what the overriding sentiment will be. Whether it is politically correct or not moms and dads view homosexuality as a birth defect and most moms will wear a patch or take a vitamin or whatever. Our desire to produce children that also produce children has had about 100,000,000 years to ingrain itself. :)

[VegasWolf]

54. ....

"Our desire to produce children that also produce children has had about 100,000,000 years to ingrain itself. "

Yes, so did apparently the homosexual manifastations of mammalian species. As I previously proposed, if sexuality is a variant between the 10% extreme homosexual and the extreme 10% heterosexual, then the norm must be some degree of bisexuality.

I am glad that you believe that there will be a cure in 20-30 years.

I simply think that modifactions to human sexuality is an extremely complex process, far easier on a goat.

Supposing that a "cure" did indeed exist, then one might suspect that taking this "cure" would certainly be the perogative of the individual.
I am not a homosexual either, so I have no direct feeling one way or another.

Best wishes and Happy New Year!

:toast:

[Diresu]

55. Happy New Year to you too!

As per my previous post there is credible research that shows there is no such thing as a male bisexual orientation. Men are binary, one way or the other. Behavior... now that is another thing entirely.

Yes, so did apparently the homosexual manifastations of mammalian species

Male homosexuality hasn't been weeded out in a world of ruthless natural selection. If it had even a slight fitness cost with no benefits it would have disappeared long ago. The problem is that the benefits are accruing to someone else. The same hormonal disruption that creates feminine, gay men might create super fertile uber-females if they had been XX instead of XY. Whatever it turns out to be somebody is benefiting even if it's not the homosexual.

What a loser I am talking about this on New Years Eve. :)

Good night!

[VegasWolf]

59. Me too!

Bisexuality is a HUGE debate with lots of critical thought on both sides. I happen to believe in the million shades of gray with black and white at the extreme.

There is an alternative theory to your second proposition, namely, that homosexuality is not a trait, it is merely one variant in the spectrum of animal sexuality. Diversity works well for evolution.

I forgot to mention, this may be all academic anyway in 20-30 years. Our backward puritanical society is slowly evolving. Younger people are nowhere near as homophobic as the old folks. Maybe in 20 years the problem may not seem important. Having spent a good chunk of my life in the Bay Area, I know many gay people. Some friends have couples for more that 20 years, I doubt very seriously they would take the cocktail were one available.

:)

[Name removed]

94. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Diresu]

95. Attracted to both?

According to Bailey's research no man was triggered by both men and women. However all good scientists are open to the possibility that they might be wrong. His research was largely embraced and I'm sure future research will include larger and larger samples. Maybe someday he will come across someone exactly like you. If I remember correctly he challenged any bisexual male to come down and be counted in his study. He is looking for data to prove his hypothesis wrong.

[VegasWolf]

96. Bailey?? Bailey?? That quack can't even spell "science". He is for the eugenics of gays!

You need real scientists as heroes! This guy was forced out of Nortwestern in disgrace. Are you a bible-carrier too? They are the ONLY people who quote Bailey.

http://www.tsroadmap.com/info/bailey-blanchard-lawrence.html

[Diresu]

97. Bible Thumper?

I've never attended a Christian church, Jewish synogogue or Muslim mosque even once. I am decisively not religious.

I could just as easily write that your posts struck me as written by someone who is a closet bible carrier. Although it might sound counterintuitive the concept of bisexuality is embraced by the Christian right, not rejected. Male bisexuality is fundamental to Reparitave Therapy which is the central "healing tool" of the Ex-Gay movement. I don't believe in it.

You are mistaken that only religious people are interested in Bailey's research.

[Diresu]

99. Curing homosexuality, i.e. eugenics

Call it eugenics, personal selection or whatever but curing homosexuality will be up to the individual, not the pressure groups on either side. Case closed.

[VegasWolf]

101. Give it up. You've shown your colors. Buh Bye, and get some schooling. nt

[Diresu]

104. Sorry to see you go

I am sorry that you have elected to leave the discussion. I read all of your posts and you made some interesting points, many of which I happen to agree with. I appreciate the thread and I enjoyed winning the debate.

Best of luck and no hard feelings on my side.

[David Zephyr]

103. You are the one who needs to be cured...

Cured of your overt bigotry manifested in your posts.

Cure yourself.

[DBoon]

65. Any more scary than trans-gender surgery?

Hormones certainly seems a less intrusive way to deal withg gender identity and sexuality.

[VegasWolf]

66. Scary in the psychological sense. Hormone therapy in goats is slightly different than altering

human sexuality. That being said, transgender surgery also is risky. As I have said, I have no problems with the research itself, I find research on the human brain to be fascinating.

Any cocktail or penis cutting off decisions must be left up to the individual. Having lived in the Bay Area my wife and I have many gay friends. Many of them are well adjusted and live in long term relationships. Then there are the tormented souls who's sexuality drives them crazy. Any compassionate human being would want to eliminate that sort of suffering.

My stated preference is to "cure" society. Homosexuality is a natural part of mammalian sexual practices and has been so for 100's of millions of years. The backward, puritanical society that we live in has not been around long at all. A society that glorifies death penalties, war, and gross differences in human standards of living while rushing to shield it's children from seeing Janet Jackson's nipple on TV is so retarded that it is not even laughable.

[Divine Discontent]

93. ripped from the pages of

X-Men III

Where Rogue wants to accept the "cure" to become a normal human against the wishes of her fellow mutants.



www.cafepress.com/warisprofitable <<-- antibush prodem stickers/shirts

[noamnety]

98. here's the (offensive) flaw in your logic

The reason nobody would opt for that "lifestyle" as you call it, isn't because attraction to one gender or the other is inherently better or worse. It's that other people are hateful bigots.

We should be researching and fighting the causes of bigotry, not searching for ways to legitimize bigotry by expecting its perfectly healthy victims to become slaves to corporate medicine and alter their body chemistry in an effort to avoid discrimination.

Sexual orientation does not need to become yet another commodity for the capitalist enterprise.

I would think that if science were researching a way to "cure" people of being black, folks would get why being a target of discrimination does not require medical help.

[Rex]

43. How do they know the sheep are gay?

Maybe they ate a little nip and got rowdy. Is there a *ahem* slippery slope for when a scientist knows a ram is gay?

[VegasWolf]

44. By their behavior according to the article. These rams will only mount other rams.

They eschew ewes. In this study they are marked by the cranial openings for electrode implantation so that scientists can see what their brains are processing when the single out that cute little ram. I think these electrodes should be implanted into the brains of some Catholic priests, purely for scientific research.

[Rex]

45. LOL. Yes I too could think of a few people that need the implant.

Maybe we can find the 'evil' process in the brain.

[pretty_lies]

48. To disagree with everyone else here-

I am a gay man, and I don't care if science finds a "cure" for homosexuality. It doesn't hurt me, or threaten my existence.

I am in a loving relationship with another man (although he is at this time half a world away) and I would not want to be heterosexual.

But I can easily imagine an alternate existence as a heterosexual person, in a relationship with a woman. I don't think I would be any less who I am for that. I would still have the same intelligence and emotions and taste in food and music (well, I might prefer women in bikinis over men in tank tops).

For this reason, I can't see any real reason to oppose this research, or its possible outcome.

If homosexuality and heterosexuality are just as good as one another, then the option to change shouldn't be seen with such horror. We're just as much ourselves, no matter who we want to sleep with.

It makes no difference to you or me whether society makes available some way for parents to ensure their offspring are heterosexual, or homosexual for that matter (can lesbian parents elect to have gay kids?).

I think that people like Tatchell, who are comparing this research to Nazi eugenics, are way over the top. Nobody is being threatened by this. Many gay men have made their sexuality the central point of their identity, which to my mind is pretty shallow.

There's some analogy to the case of Deaf people, some of whom have compared cochlear implants to an extermination of their culture. I don't suggest that the situation is totally the same, but in both cases, identity politics seems to be getting in the way of clear thinking. Nobody is being threatened, being gay or deaf is merely one facet of many in what makes us diverse.

When you're holding demonstrations against scientific research, it's generally a clue that you're on the wrong side of the argument.

-pl

[VegasWolf]

51. Few if any of us here are proposing a ban on research. But if one is after behavioral

modification vis-a-vis medicine of some sort, then I would MUCH more prefer that science concentrate on a disease that is extremely serious, for example, the elimination and eradication of all religious fantasies. After all, from what I see, religion and religious intolerance of other peoples sky people is one of the major killers in the world.

[Diresu]

56. APPLAUSE!!!

Great post! Very human.

[rebel with a cause]

57. I understand your point but I have one problem with this.

If it is an adult, or even a adolescent/teen who decides to try this hormone, that is one thing. The effects on the brain can be monitored and watched. But when you are talking about a fetus or a baby, there is no such way to know what is going on in their brain/thought process. That bothers me.

When I had my children in NYC in the seventies, the hospitals were at that time testing the hormone levels of newborns. I had no idea of this until after the tests were done, and I was shocked that no one had asked permission to do this. It was just part of procedure. Anyway, evidently my children both tested out okay because no hormone replacement was suggested. I don't know what I would have done if they had come to me and told me that they wanted to change their level of sexual hormones then. I don't know what my then husband would have insisted on me doing. I just don't know, but I do know what I would do now.

The reason I am so sure now is that I worked in child social services for awhile. During that time I worked with children with behavior disorders. Some of these children had been abused, but some had not. Some of their mothers had used drugs during their pregnancies, others we were unsure of. Some of the behaviors were understandable due to the abuse, but others were not only hard to understand but down right scary. Whatever the cause for these children's problems, I know that I would not take a chance on causing damage to my child's brain. Besides, what right have I to try to change what was intended?

[VegasWolf]

61. Your assumption re cochlear implants being simple "identity politics" is abhorrent. I'm

sure that you don't mean to trivialize a complex psychological problem for those afflicted.

[jilln]

62. You can't see any reason to oppose this research?

How about the animal cruelty involved?

[TankLV]

63. Deaf Culture. That is the lamest thing I have ever heard.

It doesn't exist.

Native American, Eastern European, Black - but a culture based on a disability - hogwash!

Let's see - I lost my arms - I have a choice to regain arms - no I think I'll fight to remain armless - completely assinine concept...

If I don't have arms, I'm not "specially abled" as some would try to make, but "disabled".

Same with any other impairment like deafness or blindness...

[DemBones DemBones]

69. Many deaf people disagree with you.

Do some research.

[Strathos]

89. Well, I can't see me loving anyone

like I love my soul mate. We've been together for 14 years now and no woman or man could hold a candle to him.

Sure, if some wanted the cure, the fix, the therapy, whatever we call it, let 'em have it. I'd still be gay and be happy to be gay.

I also have to disagree with something else you said. I do think it would make you a different person.

Being gay has made me the complete opposite of what the men in my hometown are, or the majority of them anyway. Being gay has made me open minded, caring, loving and VERY liberal. Those things might change once the brain is altered.

I think it's a bad thing. Imagine if we started saying we could cure race.

[originalpckelly]

50. Sounds like those sheep had some soy products.

:eyes:

We are entering a brave new world, but unfortunately we are the same old people.

[VegasWolf]

52. In all seriousness, if we are talking about modification of human behavior vis-a-vis medication, I

would like to propose a few far more serious "diseases" than homosexuality to be considered first:

1 - Eliminate Religious behavior - straightforward.

2 - I considered elimination of the trait that causes the conservative republican disease but changed my thinking. These people, and the bottom rung of the homo sapien ladder, the FReepers, are far too useful as working class fodder for the intellectuals and the leaders of the world. Where else can you find a people that work month after month, paycheck after paycheck, for their overlords ( be they Democrat or Republican ) and then squeal like stuck pigs when the liberal class suggests increased taxes on the overlords. This is like a win-win situation for leaders and intellectuals. We can't get rid of this class. After all, who wants to do the work they do?

3 - I would like to eliminate prolonged courtship behavior, I think people should just get to what they are after and skip the pleasantries.

4 - I don't necessarily see an attraction for diamonds and sparkling rocks, but my wife does. I would like to eliminate the human behavior that is attracted to shiny objects.

[Placebo]

64. Any talk of "curing" homosexuality gives me the chills.

I dread the onset of a world where parents are asked, "What color eyes would you like your child to have? Hair? Skin tone? Facial features? Height? Homosexual or Heterosexual? Can't leave things like that to chance!"

:scared:

[AngryAmish]

68. Get used to it

What we are learning about heritability and ways to manipuklate it are expanding geometrically. Genome sequencing is becoming faster and faster allowing even more studies and experiments.

Don't fear science. Fear it's misuse.

[Diresu]

70. Blocking this research = thermonuclear response

Fast forward 20 years or so.

1) A preventative treatment could be easily developed that eliminates intersex physical development, transexuality and homosexuality in utero.

2) Parents want it.

3) Identity groups block it in the USA and Western Europe.
3B) Rich parents get it by traveling to Asia or the Middle East.

4) 5% of parents end up with a child with one of these conditions.

5) Parents response = THERMONUCLEAR. God Hates Fags whackjobs look mainstream by comparison.

This isn't a problem we have to face yet, but I think it will be in a few decades. Whether it is 20 years from now or 50, it is coming relatively soon.

[VegasWolf]

71. Yeah! Let's also eliminate watersports, S&M, oral & anal sex and masturbation!!! nt

[VegasWolf]

73. Oh! and also bisexuality, beastiality, bondage!!! Why do you just want to stop gay people? Think big

[AnnieBW]

74. Sheepherders told: Hands Off Gay Sheep

If you must f*ck the sheep, make sure that you only f*ck the female ones! :evilgrin:

[Megahurtz]

83. Methinks that those 10% of Sheep

were watching the Sheepherders too much......

LOL!

:rofl:

[VegasWolf]

88. Just released Brokeback Sheep!!!

:toast:

[Megahurtz]

102. Lol!!!

:D

[JudyM]

75. Gayness may well have evolutionary value.

Whether it's a form of population control or an advantage to the nieces and nephews who theoretically receive an extra measure of adult nurturing/protection, or to the larger group who benefit from gay members who can put more focus into their labors (whether it's gathering food or painting inspiring canvasses) or whatever, we don't know yet and shouldn't exercise some religiously-premised authority to wipe it out. Since it shows up on average in 10% of human (and many other animal) populations, it's presumptuous of us to assume it's a mistake that needs fixing.

Society's attitude is what needs to change to put an end to the emotional suffering around homosexuality, because there's nothing inherently wrong with it from an evolutionary/physiological perspective.

[VegasWolf]

76. I have to take a strong stand against this research if it means that I ...

can no longer get good lesbian porn with a couple of hot girls getting it on!!

:evilgrin:

[Megahurtz]

77. The Mad Scientists are at it again.

I can think of better ways to spend time and money.
Anything having to do with creating and controlling a Robot Population is pretty scary to me.:scared: Eugenics at it's finest!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

78. This is why tennis players shouldn't be scientists.

The researchers in Oregon aren't looking for a "cure for homosexuality." They're trying to deduce the basic molecular biology behind sexuality. They're turning things on and off like somebody turning an odd light switch on and off to see what it's for.

[yellowcanine]

79. If God had wanted them sheep to be straight he would not have made them gay.

Someone had to say it.

[VegasWolf]

80. "Hi! I'm Tim! I've been converted by Pastor Pat Roberts "Elixir from God!! I like girls now! I also

like guns now! Pastor Phelps thinks I should buy a big pickup truck! Would you like to be my friend? I don't feel so good now. Where is my gun?"

[Megahurtz]

81. Lol!

Sick but funny! :rofl:

[rocktivity]

84. There are more straight lines in those six words than it's possible to count.

"Straight" line--and there's another one!

:rofl:
rocknation

[sweetheart]

85. people are so out of touch with animals

A tupp (male sheep for breeding) is put in with the ewes, quite commonly on his lonesome,
with a dye marker on his chest, like a big crayon. Then when he shags a ewe (lady sheep),
the dye leaves a mark on her back, and the shepard can see the progress of the tupp through the
flock. Amazingly, they move on to new pussy from the oldest to the youngest.

If you put male animals with each other, they will mount each other instead of the ewes.
The urge to mount something must be pretty strong, and i just don't buy that its an issue
of soul (or learned), but a sovereign decision.

If somebody has an extra gay sheep, send it to the abbotoir. Sheep are good eatin'. :-)

Its not a gay thing... they're sheep for peets sake... a randy animal will shag anything,
the feral instinct to respond to the 'scent' of a female that smells for miles, is to shag
whatever's in front of them. Male dogs mount each other. Is it a bisexual thing, that
they only behave like that when a nearby bitch is in heat.. or maybe they are just
anamistic tools of their hormones, much more driven by smell than humans respect...

[Strathos]

87. the research said they refuse to mate with ewes

Not that they mated with rams because there were no ewes. There's big difference. I refuse to mate with women cause I don't get off on it, but there are plenty around and some even offer. LOL

[VegasWolf]

86. Below is a link for those interested in Charles Roselli's work. For the posters here

who think that there is a simple hormone that will cure homosexuality, read the paper before going off into the twilight zone and claiming the magic elixir is just around the corner.

First in terms of hormones:

http://www.biolreprod.org/cgi/content/abstract/67/1/263

<snip>
Relationship of Serum Testosterone Concentrations to Mate Preferences in Rams1
Charles E. Roselli2,a, Fred Stormshakb, John N. Stellflugc, and John A. Reskoa

a Department of Physiology and Pharmacology, Oregon Health & Science University, Portland, Oregon 97201 b Department of Animal Sciences, Oregon State University, Corvallis, Oregon 97331 c United States Sheep Experiment Station, Dubois, Idaho 83423

This study examined systemic testosterone concentrations in rams that were classified according to their sexual behavior and partner preference as either female-oriented (FOR), male-oriented (MOR), or asexual (NOR). For this purpose, we measured testosterone concentrations under three separate conditions: in conscious rams during the nonbreeding season (June) and breeding season (November), and in anesthetized rams during the breeding season. Basal testosterone concentrations in conscious rams were not different among the three groups (P > 0.05) in either season. However, when rams were anesthetized, mean systemic concentrations of testosterone in FORs (mean ± SEM, 13.9 ± 7.4 ng/ml serum) were greater (P < 0.05) than in NORs (0.9 ± 0.1 ng/ml), but not in MORs (2.2 ± 6.2 ng/ml), whereas testosterone concentrations were not different between MORs and NORs (P > 0.05). Concentrations of testosterone in the spermatic vein of FORs (127 ± 66 ng/ml) were greater (P < 0.05) than in MORs (41 ± 10 ng/ml) and NORs (19 ± 7 ng/ml). Serum LH concentrations were not different. Cortisol was higher (P < 0.05) in anesthetized MORs (25.1 ± 4.2 ng/ml) and NORs (27.2 ± 4.4 ng/ml) than in FORs (10.9 ± 1.8 ng/ml). These results demonstrate that circulating testosterone concentrations are related to sexual behavior only when rams are bled under anesthesia. Thus, differences in basal androgen concentrations in adulthood cannot be responsible for expression of male-oriented preferences or low libido in sheep. Instead, functional differences must exist between the brains of rams that differ in sexual preference expression.
</snip>

Roselli's work has identified specific neurological changes in the brain, in particular, the hypothalamus, of male oriented male sheep. From a popular (i.e. non-scientific) article summarizing various animal sexuality issues:

http://www.tierramerica.net/2005/0226/iacentos2.shtml

<snip>
In the study published in 2004, physiologist Charles Roselli and his team said they discovered groups of brain cells that were different amongst the sheep and that showed a strong correlation with their sexual preference. Roselli dubbed this knot of nerve cells ''ovine sexually dimorphic nucleus, oSDN.

The team examined 27 adult sheep, four years old and of different breeds, raised on an agricultural research station in the northwestern state of Idaho. The sample included eight males who manifested heterosexual behavior, nine with homosexual behavior and 10 females.

The research determined that the oSDN of the males who preferred females was considerably larger and contained many more neurons than in the other 19 sheep.

''Ours and other similar studies strongly suggest that the sexual preference among animals is biologically determined,'' Roselli told a press conference. When he presented the report the physiology and pharmacology professor added, ''This possibility is also valid for humans.''

</snip>

Finally, is a pointer to Goggle Scholar with a list of Roselli's work, he is quite well published. The list contains the seminal work referenced by the article:

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&q=charles+roselli

Last but not least, PETA is all hot and bothered by research using animals and are targeting Roselli. PETA would put scientific research back 100 years if they could. Fortunately, fewer and fewer people are listening to this animal extremist group anymore.

[MiniMe]

90. Its just gotta be said, why do the researchers have their hands on the sheep?

[VegasWolf]

92. Because it's cold out on the farms there?

:think:

[sofa king]

100. Breed it out, or breed it in?

It occurs to me that one way to control the exploding population would be to make all of them gay. Then you just "ungay" the ones you want to breed for research purposes.

What? I'm talking about rats!