Tony Blair facing rebellion over nuclear weapons

[T_i_B]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6448173.stm

Tony Blair may face his biggest Commons rebellion since the start of the Iraq war when MPs vote on the £20bn plan to renew the UK's nuclear weapons system.

The Commons debate on replacing the submarines which carry the Trident missiles is due to start at about 1250 GMT, with a vote due near to 1900 GMT. About 80 Labour MPs have expressed unease, but defeat is unlikely because the Conservatives back the plans.

Mr Blair says the UK needs nuclear weapons in an uncertain world.

MPs including Liberal Democrat leader Sir Menzies Campbell and former defence minister Peter Kilfoyle are backing an amendment - thought to have the backing of about 80 Labour MPs - saying the case for replacing Trident is "not yet proven" and saying they are "unconvinced of the need for an early decision".

[bahrbearian]

1. Do they ever consider "why " this is an uncertain world?

Will more weapons make it more stable?

[T_i_B]

2. Why is this an uncertain world?

Human nature mate. :-(

I'm more pro-nuclear then most UK DUers, but all the same it should be an interesting vote. The government should still win with Tory support but it's the size of the Labour rebellion that will be of interest.

[wuushew]

3. Why does Britain need nukes?

As a part of NATO your country is already hooked into the U.S. nuclear response tripwire.

I question the need for European nukes the same as when Japan occasionally considers them. A nuclear attack on any American ally will have the same result. The net amount of deterrence really is not increased by numerous independent nuclear arsenals.

Save your money and buy something nice.

[AngryAmish]

4. Because that could change

What if the UK and the US become unfriendly?

“Nations have no permanent friends or allies, they only have permanent interests.” Lord Palmerston

It was true in the 19th century and true today.

The US and UK were allies in the 80s and we did nothing to help with the Falklands.

Plus as an American they should have to foot their defense costs. They do now but much of Europe spends a very low percentage of GNP to defend themselves. They should spend more.

[muriel_volestrangler]

5. Why indeed? An op-ed by the ex-editor of The Times, in The Guardian

(The Times has always been an 'establishment' paper, but Simon Jenkins, who continued as an op-ed writer after he retired as editor, has now moved to The Guardian, where many of his stances (eg opposing the invasion of Iraq) fit better)

MPs are voting for a white elephant. And they know it

The nuclear deterrent is a cold war relic. Renewing Trident for a hypothetical conflict only deprives the army of basic resources

Simon Jenkins
Wednesday March 14, 2007
The Guardian

I can hardly believe that a majority of British MPs will tonight vote to renew the British nuclear deterrent. Almost all of them, of all parties, know in their heads that it makes no sense. They lack the guts to say so, Labour MPs because they want jobs under Gordon Brown, Conservatives because they love whizzbangs and want to embarrass Tony Blair by keeping him in power, for reasons that pass comprehension.

There is no surer sign that the Trident missile system is strategically obsolete than the archaic arguments ranged in its support. It is said to be the ultimate weapon. We have got it and may as well keep it. It is an insurance policy against "the unknown". You never know what the terrorist might get up to. You can't trust the Americans. Trident keeps us a place at the top table.
...
Half the Labour members of the House of Commons, including the prime minister, were members of the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament. They must surely acknowledge that the spirit, if not the actual letter, of the nuclear non-proliferation treaty requires Britain to decommission Trident. While that may make no difference to the nuclear ambition of North Korea or Iran, the sheer hypocrisy of Britain preaching a non-nuclear world while preparing to spend a staggering £70bn buying and running new long-range missiles, warheads and submarine platforms is breathtaking.

Trident is like the Olympic games or ID cards, projects whose mindless extravagance stretching beyond parliaments puts them out of reach of sane value-for-money accounting. They demand a quasi-religious "justification by faith", supported by a baying priesthood of weapons contractors, publicists and BAE lobbyists. Trident worshippers are a mystical freemasonry, seemingly obsessed with priapic enhancement and ancestor worship. Their concern is with prestige, not with defence.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,2033093,00.html

[muriel_volestrangler]

6. MPs support Trident renewal plan - perhaps 90 Labour rebels

MPs have voted to renew the UK's nuclear submarine system, despite a Labour rebellion.
...
After six hours of debate in the Commons, 409 MPs supported the plan, and 161 were against - a majority of 248.

The proposals prompted four MPs to quit, including an aide to Cabinet minister Peter Hain.

Earlier, 413 MPs voted against a motion calling for a delay until 2014, with 167 in favour.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6448173.stm

With about 60 Lib Dem MPs voting against Trident, perhaps 10 nationalist, I'd guess (Welsh, Scottish and SDLP from Northern Ireland), and maybe a few Tory rebels, that would be about 90 Labour MPs - that's what one TV station is thinking, anyway. This compares with 135 who rebelled about Iraq - the other vote that Blair won because the official Tory vote supported him.

[T_i_B]

7. That's a pretty big rebellion!

88 rebelled against renewal and 95 voted for a delay! Here's the rebel list

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6452315.stm

[Celefin]

8. They are already upgrading it (Guardian)

Britain's Trident nuclear weapons are being secretly upgraded to increase their accuracy and ability to attack a wider range of targets, the Guardian has learned.

Ministers have repeatedly denied there are plans to refurbish Britain's nuclear warheads, arguing that it will be up to the next parliament to decide whether to do so. However, the MoD has now admitted that a new firing device developed by the US is to be installed in Britain's nuclear weapons system by scientists at the Atomic Weapons Research Establishment at Aldermaston in Berkshire.

-snip-

John Ainslie, coordinator of the Scottish Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament, said it was "astonishing" that the MoD was secretly upgrading the existing Trident warhead without telling parliament.

Paul Ingram, senior analyst at the British American Security Information Council, said: "The level and type of investment at Aldermaston of which this is a part indicates that Britain is looking to further upgrade its warheads for a variety of uses beyond simple deterrence."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/story/0,,2033290,00.html