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rawstory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-11-07 09:39 PM
Original message
NYT to report billions in oil missing in Iraq
Source: NYT / Raw Story

"Between 100,000 and 300,000 barrels a day of Iraq's declared oil production over the past four years is unaccounted for and could have been siphoned off through corruption or smuggling, according to a draft American government report," the NEW YORK TIMES reports on Saturday page ones. Excerpts.

#

Using an average of $50 a barrel, the report said the discrepancy was valued at $5 million to $15 million daily.

The report does not give a final conclusion on what happened to the missing fraction of the roughly 2 million barrels pumped by Iraq each day, but the findings are sure to reinforce long-standing suspicions that smugglers, insurgents and corrupt officials control significant parts of the country's oil industry.

Read more: http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Billions_in_oil_missing_in_Iraq_0511.html
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Suich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-11-07 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
1. $5 - $15 million DAILY???
That's horrendous!
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bobbie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-12-07 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #1
30. My exact reaction...
DAILY?!!!
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izzie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-11-07 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
2. Maybe they are taking it a pail at a time?
Can you believe the people of Iraq are stealing their own oil? My guess it is some one else.
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dweller Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-11-07 09:47 PM
Response to Original message
3. it's always been about the oil
Edited on Fri May-11-07 09:52 PM by dweller
whether stealing it, killing for it, invading for it ... make no mistake on this. It's about the oil.

dp


idet: it
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PSPS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-11-07 09:49 PM
Response to Original message
4. It's going into Bush's pocket, of course. Is anyone surprised by this?
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ClintonTyree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-12-07 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #4
31. Bartcop has been keeping a running tally since the war began....
of how much oil revenue the Bushistas have stolen from Iraq. Granted, his numbers differ substantially from the NYT numbers but who's to say the NYT has it right? I'm willing to bet the real numbers are closer to old Bart's than the NYT's. Some people have known about this since the war began. The US whore media is just now waking up to this fact? :mad: Does anyone in the media ask questions beyond the official Reich-Wing propaganda anymore? It sure took the NYT long enough to wonder about where Iraq's oil revenue was disappearing to. Right into the pockets of BFEE's oil buddies, that's where.
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jmowreader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-12-07 02:34 AM
Response to Reply #31
35. There's a flaw in Bart's numbers
He assumes the BFEE is stealing ALL the unaccounted-for oil.

Certainly they're stealing a lot of it, but that region has no shortage of bandits. Most of the government officials there fall into that category, even the lowest-level ones.

I'd say Bart's raw oil figures are closer to the truth than the NYT's, but his estimates of how much the BFEE is taking are about a third too high.
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ClintonTyree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-12-07 07:01 AM
Response to Reply #35
38. Oh, I agree...
I'm just saying that SOMEONE has been keeping tabs on this since the start of the Iraq war. The NYT is reporting this like it's some big scoop, that no one even knew about this before now. Bullshit. People just aren't paying attention..........as usual. Bart does tend to go overboard with some of his projections, but like he says, "If some guy from Oklahoma with an IQ of 78 knows about this"....... Bart's a pretty sharp dude. ;)
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Vinnie From Indy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-11-07 09:58 PM
Response to Original message
5. BushCo is and has always been about the benjamins
A few dozen billions to be gained from killing a few hundred thousand people is an easily acceptable price for these people.
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catzies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-13-07 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #5
61. Yes, and that's why I've always said (re: 9/11) that killing 3,000 Americans
at home was an acceptable price too.
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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-11-07 10:02 PM
Response to Original message
6. OK, guys. Here's a possible scoop on stolen Iraqi oil
Peak Oil, Missing Oil Meters and an Inactive Pipeline: The Real Reason for the Invasion of Iraq?

In this article I will present research that supports a rather startling hypothesis: that the USA invaded Iraq primarily to enable the secret diversion of a portion of Iraq’s oil production to Saudi Arabia. This was done in order to disguise the fact that Saudi Arabia’s oil output has peaked, and may be in permanent decline. The evidence for this conclusion is circumstantial, but it does knit up many of the loose threads in the mystery of the American administration’s motivation for invasion.

To lay the groundwork we need to set out a couple of assumptions.

The primary assumption is that the world’s oil production has been on a plateau for the last two years, and in fact we may be teetering on the brink of the production decline predicted by the Peak Oil theory. Such a decline could be dangerous to the world economy, both directly through the loss of economic capacity and indirectly (and perhaps more importantly) through the loss of investor confidence in the global economic structure.

The second assumption is that the oil production of Saudi Arabia is key to maintaining the global oil supply. Saudi Arabia supplies over 10% of the world’s crude oil, with over half of that coming from one enormous field named Ghawar. There is a large and well-informed body of opinion that believes that if Saudi oil production goes into decline the world will follow because there is not the spare capacity anywhere else to make up for such a decline. Saudi Arabia is notoriously tight-lipped about the state of their oil fields, and in fact oil production information is considered to be a state secret. The only trustworthy information the world really has about Saudi Arabia’s oil are their aggregated production figures.

The conclusion that can be drawn from these two assumptions is that if Saudi Arabia’s production began to decline and the world found out about it, there would be a significant risk of a world-wide economic panic that would destabilize markets and throw nations like the USA into a recession or depression that would be worse than the actual damage done by the loss of the oil. We can assume that the prevention or postponement of such a crisis would be an extremely high priority for the administrations of both the USA and Saudi Arabia.
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madeline_con Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-11-07 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. It's in DUH-bya & Co.'s pocket, like PSPS said.
Saddam had begun to trade his crude in Euros, which would have screwed up American dollar dominance in the oil market, and had a major impact on the world economy. You can read about it here:

http://www.energybulletin.net/7707.html
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-11-07 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #6
14. Hiya, GG. Yup, this is the news you've been expecting, I guess
Looks like that meter will finally get fixed now.
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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-12-07 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #14
52. This is a nice little piece of the puzzle, all right.
The game with Saudi Arabia is almost over.
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lvx35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-11-07 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #6
18. If that's true, the end is near.
The economy as we know it will pass out.
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-11-07 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #6
20. That's an interesting hypothesis
Of course, we could have invested the $2 Trillion dollars or so that we've dumped into this fiasco and given ourselves an opportunity to become significantly less reliant on ME oil (and created a lot of jobs in the process)...but that would have meant not allowing Big Oil to steal the 2000 Election.
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lildreamer316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-12-07 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #6
26. Wow. This is a must-read. Thank you.--and a QUESTION!
Edited on Sat May-12-07 12:27 AM by lildreamer316
Very informative. I found this particularly convincing:
"The 1.7 million barrel per day volume of the IPSA pipeline and the timing of the rise seen in Saudi oil production in early 2004 fit the scenario perfectly."

So this prompts me to ask--how much oil does Iran have? Is there a field under them too? I don't know about this stuff. Just learning.
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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-12-07 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #26
53. Iran's proven reserves are unclear, as are the rest of OPEC's
OPEC reserve statements are highly political and are manipulated for reasons of production quotas: the higher the reserves, the higher the quota, thus the more money a producer can make, so the incentive to inflate reserve figures is irresistible. Iran has either 50 billion barrels of oil, or 92 billion, or 132 billion, depending on which statement of theirs you believe. That's probably about the same as Iraq, and about 1/3 as much as Saudi Arabia claims.

Iran's production is well known, though. They produce about 4 million barrels per day. That's over twice Iraq's production, and just over 1/3 of Saudi Arabia's production. The speculation is that a looming oil production shortfall is what is driving Iran's desire for nuclear power.
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loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-12-07 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #6
32. I saved that link....VERY interesting theory.
It makes a lot more sense than anything the politicians are telling us. Could THAT be why the Dems keep caving about the war funding? Because they NEED to keep it going to avert a world-wide panic?

:kick::kick::kick:
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electron_blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-12-07 08:19 AM
Response to Reply #6
40. It also possibly explains why so many S.A. nationals were involved in 9/11
Create a reason for Americans to back going to war with Iraq.
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Barrett808 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-12-07 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #6
44. Yes, I've suspected this since the beginning.
Thank you for the supporting research!
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cyberpj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-12-07 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #6
47. WOW. Never thought of that one. But it's totally believable. Any thoughts as to
sending this to the writer of the NYT article for further consideration?

Thx.

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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-13-07 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #47
60. I just sent it to him.
It's a bit too CT for a Times reporter to take at face value, but it might suggest further avenues for investigation. The GAO report, as far as I can tell, doesn't address the implications of broken oil meters, but just oil that's gone missing from known production. This leaves open the possibility that much more oil is actually going missing.

Even a diversion just on the scale of the GAO's findings implies cooperation at the very highest levels. Nobody steals $10,000,000 a day for years without official help. And who's at the very highest level of control in Iraq? Hmmmm?

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zippy890 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-12-07 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #6
48. who wrote that?
seems well researched, but there's no author cited that I can find.

thanks for any help.
I'm interested in Peak Oil issues, and also Saudi Arabian politics, and how the whole thing fits together ( or falls apart) with American politics & economy.
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cosmicdot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-12-07 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. from the link
Edited on Sat May-12-07 04:40 PM by cosmicdot
it appears to have been a Paul Chefurka

http://www.paulchefurka.ca/


http://www.planetthoughts.org/?pg=pt/Whole&qid=1329#contributor


`````````````````

his "Peak Oil, Missing Oil Meters and an Inactive Pipeline:
The Real Reason for the Invasion of Iraq?" included a link to this piece:


Mystery of the Missing Meters: Accounting for Iraq's Oil Revenue

by Pratap Chatterjee, Special to CorpWatch

March 22nd, 2007

The line of ships at the Al Basra Oil Terminal (ABOT) stretches south to the horizon, patiently waiting in the searing heat of the Northern Arabian Gulf as four giant supertankers load up. Close by, two more tankers fill up at the smaller Khawr Al Amaya Oil Terminal (KAAOT). Guarding both terminals are dozens of heavily-armed U.S. Navy troops and Iraqi Marines who live on the platforms.

These two offshore terminals, a maze of pipes and precarious metal walkways, deliver some 1.6 million barrels of crude oil, at least 85 percent of Iraq's output, to buyers from all over the world. If the southern oil fields are the heart of Iraq's economy, its main arteries are three 40-plus inch pipelines that stretch some 52 miles from Iraq's wells to the ports.

Heavily armed soldiers spend their days at the oil terminals scanning the horizon looking for suicide bombers and stray fishing dhows (boats). Meanwhile, right under their noses, smugglers are suspected to be diverting an estimated billions of dollars worth of crude onto tankers because the oil metering system that is supposed monitor how much crude flows into and out of ABOT and KAAOT - has not worked since the March 2003 U.S. invasion of Iraq.

Officials blame the four-year delay in repairing the relatively simple system on "security problems." Others point to the failed efforts of the two U.S. companies hired to repair the southern oil fields, fix the two terminals, and the meters: Halliburton of Houston, Texas, and Parsons of Pasadena, California.

The Special Inspector General for Iraq Reconstruction (SIGIR) is scheduled to publish a report this spring that is expected criticize the companies' failure to complete the work.

~snip~

http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=14427

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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-12-07 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #48
51. I'm the author. I wrote the article on March 25, about 6 weeks ago.
Edited on Sat May-12-07 09:23 PM by GliderGuider
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wordpix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-12-07 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #6
55. very interesting, some of this could be right, other parts are unbelievable to me
For example, I've always wondered why SA has been mostly silent until recently about the US invasion of Iraq since Saddam was a fellow Sunni and SA had to know the country is predominantly Shiia. Under the circumstances of the war's beginning, plus to have the US in charge of Iraq's oil thus competing against SA's oil dominance, I would have expected SA's king to be shouting "NO" to war in Iraq and yet he remained silent. Ditto Prince Bandar.

So it does seem that SA had to be a silent partner to the invasion and US takeover of Iraqi oil.

It's possible SA's government sent the 9-11 hijackers .but I am still skeptical of the MIHOP theory, although LIHOP is a definite possibility.

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ryanmuegge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-13-07 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #6
63. While all that sounds logical and wouldn't really surprise me, that link is filled with innuendo.
There has to be a reason why they had such a hard-on for Iraq, damned be all. And it has to be something related to oil. It was probably just imperial ambition.
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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-13-07 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. Yep. I'm just squinting my eyes and seeing dragons in the clouds.
It's all hopelessly speculative. Still, there's a seductive internal consistency to it, isn't there? :evilfrown:
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ryanmuegge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-13-07 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #64
65. Yes, a frightening amount that I'm reluctant to admit.
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Botany Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-11-07 10:35 PM
Response to Original message
8. It was always about oil
I remember right after "they" started pumping oil again for a 6 weeks
or so "they" pumped it but failed to measure it (the oil).
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sellitman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-11-07 10:38 PM
Response to Original message
9. Wow.
:wow:
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Bjorn Against Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-11-07 10:45 PM
Response to Original message
10. Investigate. Impeach. Imprison.
I have a hard time believing the Bush administration did not know about this. It is time for impeachment hearings.
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mrcheerful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-11-07 11:02 PM
Response to Original message
11. It is not missing, Exxon is selling it to "We the people" at over $3 a gallon as we type.
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-11-07 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. The Iraqis are missing it
And if they find out who's behind it, they should pay reparations.
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cal04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-11-07 11:03 PM
Response to Original message
12. Billions in Oil Missing in Iraq, U.S. Study Finds
Between 100,000 and 300,000 barrels a day of Iraq’s declared oil production over the past four years is unaccounted for and could have been siphoned off through corruption or smuggling, according to a draft American government report.

Using an average of $50 a barrel, the report said the discrepancy was valued at $5 million to $15 million daily.

The report does not give a final conclusion on what happened to the missing fraction of the roughly two million barrels pumped by Iraq each day, but the findings are sure to reinforce longstanding suspicions that smugglers, insurgents and corrupt officials control significant parts of the country’s oil industry.

The report also covered alternative explanations for the billions of dollars worth of discrepancies, including the possibility that Iraq has been consistently overstating its oil production.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/12/world/middleeast/12oil.html?hp
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THUNDER HANDS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-11-07 11:03 PM
Response to Original message
13. i got a feeling
that a few oilmen in Kuwait know where it went.
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-11-07 11:13 PM
Response to Original message
16. So THIS was the reason for Cheney's visit
Either someone was stealing HIS oil.

Or it was a pre-emptive damage control attempt to cover the theft.

There's something HUGE behind this story.
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demgrrrll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-11-07 11:13 PM
Response to Original message
17. Off to Paraguay!!!!!!!! Why not dispense with the pretense. Bush
and his cronies should just start wearing striped suits and carry bags marked "swag".
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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-11-07 11:24 PM
Response to Original message
19. Reason to continue the war = $5 million to $15 million daily
Edited on Fri May-11-07 11:25 PM by L. Coyote
Like we did not already know this.... Duuuhhh bya.
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-11-07 11:30 PM
Response to Original message
21. Saddam stole it!
No, wait, we hanged him....and we took over the Oil Ministry as soon as we occupied Baghdad.

This would never have occurred if the Iraqi's had just passed the Hydrocarbon Law that Dick Cheney wrote up in his secret energy meetings back in 2001.
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mn9driver Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-11-07 11:40 PM
Response to Original message
22. $2.1 trillion. This is what the US has spent on the war
and it is what 300,000 daily barrels of stolen oil is worth over four years. What a coincidence.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-12-07 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #22
57. And didn't they say AT the beginning
that the war would be financed via the sale of Iraq's oil, or some other such inexplicable nonsense?

They were hiding the entire illegal scheme in plain sight!
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bonito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-11-07 11:40 PM
Response to Original message
23. Who would have guessed n/t
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Baron Harkonen Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-11-07 11:46 PM
Response to Original message
24. seems like the last time Cheney went to the ME
prices hiked up. He's back over there now what $4 a gallon now. I'm sick of these fucks...
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Gman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-12-07 12:05 AM
Response to Original message
25. There were reports of unmetered oil production in the early days
Edited on Sat May-12-07 12:10 AM by Gman
after the initial invasion and Halliburton was supposed to be involved.

Still, is anyone really surprised? Really?
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Cant trust em Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-12-07 12:21 AM
Response to Original message
27. Iraq is ruled by the Murphy's law of...
Whatever can go wrong will go wrong.
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sutz12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-13-07 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #27
62. Actually, this is Cheney's corrollary to Murphy's Law...
Whatever can go wrong, we will make go wrong.
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ocd liberal Donating Member (333 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-12-07 12:51 AM
Response to Original message
28. I am not surprised at all
Condi and Chevron oil kickback pre-invasion 2003? It's all out there, waiting to come out.
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moondust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-12-07 12:58 AM
Response to Original message
29. Hmmm...and Halliburton is moving to Dubai.
At first I thought it was so that they'd be closer to all those pallets of cash that "disappeared" but now I'm not so sure...
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loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-12-07 02:02 AM
Response to Reply #29
33. That was my first thought, too, Xap. And read post #6, the whole article.
This just might be a more sinister mess than any of us want to contemplate.

:kick:
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noise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-12-07 02:19 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. Like what
complicity in 9/11 to install a full blown kleptocracy using fearmongering and propaganda to convince the public the elections weren't stolen and privatizing military to use against the public when people figure out what Bush Co. really did.

That sort of sinister?
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loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-12-07 03:17 AM
Response to Reply #34
37. LOL! Yep, that sort of sinister.
What I was thinking of when I posted that, though, was the impact on the world psyche & economy...more the global implications of no more oil sooner than we were told. It puts shrub's executive order of this week (saying he will take full control of the government if we had a "decapitating event" ) in a more immediate context.

:kick:
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-12-07 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #37
39. What? He said what?
:wtf: :grr:
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-12-07 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #39
41. Did you miss this?
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entanglement Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-12-07 03:05 AM
Response to Original message
36.  $10 million stolen daily = $14.6 billion over four years
Staggering figures, considering we're talking about THEFT

:wow:
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lovuian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-12-07 09:06 AM
Response to Original message
42. We not only used our sons and daughters to protect
oil wells and pipelines as well as steal oil to sell for billions but I bet they used military to help ship it out
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Barrett808 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-12-07 11:03 AM
Response to Original message
43. k & r
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-12-07 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. Isn't Ahmed Chalabi still the Temp. Oil Minsiter?
The investigation might want to start with him, eh?
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lakeguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-12-07 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
46. it's all going to the saudis to prop up their declining production.
they've peaked and are hiding it behind the deaths of hundreds of thousands of iraqis, thousands of troop deaths and a whole lot of american cash.
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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-12-07 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #46
54. That's my take on it as well.
This whole shitstorm is to keep the world from realizing that KSA production has peaked. They've underestimated the Saudi decline rate, though, and they're not going to be able to hide it much longer. Look for the situation to become too severe to conceal in the fourth quarter of this year or the first quarter of 2008.
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UpInArms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-12-07 09:15 PM
Response to Original message
50. it's very sad when the story is that the news will be "reporting"
because it becomes an

OMG! it's being reported
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wordpix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-12-07 11:35 PM
Response to Original message
56. k&r---follow the money AND the oil
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-12-07 11:52 PM
Response to Original message
58. Franken always keept the BILLION$ lost in the Iraqi sand up front
Good for the NYT. They must not be getting rewarded for their complicity in this adventure.
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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-13-07 12:44 AM
Response to Original message
59. Interesting.
Have to read this at some point when I can digest it. Doesn't surprise me at all unfortunately.
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