Federal arrests frighten Mexicans

[Algorem]

Source: Cleveland Plain Dealer

Hundreds flood church in Painesville seeking sanctuary from agents

http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/lake/1179650465169081.xml&coll=2
Sunday, May 20, 2007

Joe Guillen and Donna J. MillerPlain Dealer Reporters

Painesville -

...Activists in the Lake County Latino community claimed about 100 people were taken into custody and whisked out of the county, which fueled the panic.

An Immigration and Customs Enforcement spokesman said 24 illegal immigrants were arrested Friday, many in Painesville...

The arrests are part of the federal Return to Sender program. A special team of agents go after illegal immigrants who have received final orders of deportation from a federal immigrations judge, ICE spokesman Carl Rusnok said Saturday evening...

National news reports have estimated that U.S. authorities arrested and detained at least 750 immigrants in raids across the country in the last month or so...




400 people crowd into Painesville church basement following immigration arrests

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2007/05/updated_at_530_pm_we.html

...Comments
chumscrubber says...
Its about time. Get all those wetbacks out of the country.

Posted on 05/19/07 at 7:17PM
frankauto says...
I am happy they are doing this. If you entered in this country leagally in the first place you wouldnt be in the situation. There has been no talk of inhumane treatment just following the letter of the law. My biggest complaint is when walking through the mall with my daughter who is in her early teens and she is constantly looked looked at by the mexican decent men who speak in spanish. We live in America and our language is English.. Speak it or leave...

I am sure this will tick off many people but this is my right as a U.S. citizen to speak my mind...

Posted on 05/19/07 at 7:40PM
gingersweet says...
I am disappointed in the vulgar and distasteful comment made by our Ohio men. They come on a website let their comments fly,but these are the same people who won't say anything when put to the test in public. It's disgusting to think people with these kind of views live here in this same state. Hopefully they get educated and then they won't have anything to fear. These people come do jobs Americans feel are beneath them and what do we do? Hee Haaw and complain about wetbacks(that's what scumscrubber said right?)get a life losers.....Quit showing the world our disappointing look on life and pretend we are not a bunch of hillbillies here in ohiotuckey.......




Protest swells in Painesville over immigration arrests

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2007/05/protest_swells_in_painesville.html

Painesville -- More than 200 protestors are at City Hall waving American flags and denouncing an immigration crackdown that began this week in Lake County...


Comments
osubux says...
Its about time this happened in Painesville, this city has a large population of "illegal" immigrants that drains the city services (police, fire, schools & healthcare). Cleveland SHOULD NOT become a "safe haven" for any ILLEGAL ACTIVITY... period. The police & ICE are doing there jobs, there is not fault or guilt in what they are doing, the illegals have done this to themselves & their families.

Posted on 05/19/07 at 4:35PM
cleve4life says...
Definately about time....Painesville's nickname is Little Mexico....when someone says they are going to Painesville....you then hear, oh your gonna run for the border. If you live in Painesville and are proud of that....you are dumb.

Posted on 05/19/07 at 5:03PM
goaway2 says...
How's the mexican food in p-ville??...





Arrests by ICE agents prompt protest in Minneapolis

http://www.wctrib.com/ap/index.cfm?page=view&id=D8P84MLO1

The Associated Press - Sunday, May 20, 2007

MINNEAPOLIS

U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement officials arrested at least five people from a Minneapolis apartment building yesterday -- setting off protests in the street.

After recent arrests in Willmar, the Hispanic community is fearful that raids will be aimed at arresting illegal immigrants.

ICE spokesman Tim Counts says the main goal yesterday was to arrest people wanted for criminal offenses, not immigration charges. He would not disclose the nature of the criminal charges.

But more than 100 people including community activists went to the area of East Lake Street and Bloomington Avenue to witness the arrests. Many used camcorders and digital cameras to monitor how the alleged suspects were treated...




Churches provide immigrants sanctuary in L.A., other cities

http://www.douglasdispatch.com/articles/2007/05/19/news/religion/religion2.txt

LOS ANGELES (AP) - Churches in five big U.S. cities plan to protect illegal immigrants from deportation, offering their buildings as sanctuary if need be, as they pressure lawmakers to create a path to citizenship for the nation's estimated 12 million illegal immigrants.

On Wednesday, a Catholic church in Los Angeles and a Lutheran church in North Hollywood each sheltered one person, and churches in other cities plan to do so in coming months as part of the ``New Sanctuary Movement.''

``We want to put a human face to very complex immigration laws and awaken the consciousness of the human spirit,'' said Father Richard Estrada of Our Lady Queen of Angels Catholic Church in Los Angeles. Advertisement

Organizers said churches in more than 50 cities nationwide were planning to join the sanctuary effort. They don't believe immigration agents will make arrests inside the churches...



Read more: http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/lake/1179650465169081.xml&coll=2

[ohio2007]

1. In Lorain and Elyria Ohio there is a sizable workforce

population that is illegal.
Many work just enough to keep the welfare benefits.

That is the ugly unreported side of the story.
But as long as employers hire them at less then living wages,the circle will be unbroken.

[coalition_unwilling]

34. "The welfare benefits" -- exactly which "welfare benefits" are

undocumented workers receiving? This is a slander on a group of very hard-working people and does not become DU, imho.

[dropkickpa]

46. Wow,

According to ODJFS, one must have proof of application for SS card if they don't already have one AND permanant resident card or other INS documentation if not a US citizen for ANY service, including food stamps. http://www.odjfs.state.oh.us/forms/file.asp?id=47249

So I guess the people in your town aren't "illegal" if they're getting assistance, they're just guilty of being brown and poor and exploited.

Next you'll tell us all about the "welfare queens" in your town.

[ohio2007]

62. According to ODJFS ?

LOL
Sorry, if you're quote govt sources
you're really not familiar with the under the table system.


So,
how bout those voter fraud cases ?

...and thats all I have to say on this subject.

[dropkickpa]

76. I've been through the welfare system

And it is hella hard to get benefits, there'a a LOT of hoops to jump through. Have you been on welfare lately?

[kestrel91316]

85. Here in LA there is quite the booming business in fake documents.

THAT'S how they pull it off. Fake papers >>>> food stamps, AFDC, welfare, free medical care, free schools, etc etc.

It's an INSULT to the good people who wait patiently in line for years and obey all immigration laws. Makes me ill.

In CA, illegal immigrants qualify for INSTATE tuition at state universities. That's a slap in the face to legal residents and citizens from other states who want to attend CA universities.

I say the only free ride you should get if you enter the US illegally is a ticket on the first bus home. And if you repeat it, SERIOUS jail time. I also support serious jail time for the employers of illegals, and forfeiture of business assets for repeat offenses.

[unlawflcombatnt]

114. I agree with you

Especially with this part:

"I also support serious jail time for the employers of illegals, and forfeiture of business assets for repeat offenses."

I think prosecuting the employers should be the center piece of legislation to reduce illegal immigration. Number-wise, there are less employers, and they have a lot more to lose. Prosecuting them would 100 illegal employers would have a much greater effect than prosecuting 100 illegal immigrants. And if employers stopped hiring illegally, the problem would be resolved.

[Hekate]

83. "Welfare benefits" is bogus, but the drain on other County services like healthcare is real

These workers are TAXED at every turn, just like the rest of us. Their payroll taxes are as real as yours. Their sales taxes are as real as yours. Yet due to their status, they will never draw Social Security or be eligible for a number of other programs.

However, due to their extremely low wages and absence of employment-related health insurance they DO have to use the County hospital, ER, and health clinics. There is a genuine cost to us at the County level.

Kick the complaints back to the big employers -- agribusiness, chicken packers, and the rest -- some of whom actively recruit south of the border for undocumented workers, and most of whom just look the other way and take advantage of the opportunity to pay rock-bottom wages with no benefits.

Hekate

[K in FL]

107. How true

When the bogus low figures of the uninsured comes out at 44
million plus, the 15 million illegal immigrants are not
included as part of that figure.  All these illegals will
eventually be wards of the state (yours and mine). In ERs
across the nation, aliens have children, heart attacks,
strokes, etc. which legally American hospitals must treat.  We
as Americans will pay again through either taxes or higher
medical costs.  Corporate greed has again driven this issue
for lower wages and benefits. 

[kurth]

2. keyword: ILlegal

Obey the law. Deport them.

[ohio2007]

3. "Legal;" immigrants aslo agree with that statement.

They paid their dues while illegals lower the standard living wage.

[Occulus]

22. Would you support a law forcing the immediate shutdown of any business employing illegals? n/t

[pampango]

25. As long as it is not the one I work for. n/t

[ohio2007]

63. You know of any ? nt

[spoony]

68. Yes.

They are slave traders, and if they thumb their noses at one set of laws and behave unethically, why should we think they obey any others? (food safety laws, etc.)

[pampango]

74. Because they break one law, they must be breaking a lot of others?

I hope you are speaking only of employers, not of us regular folk who may have broken a law or two, but do not want to admit guilt to a whole host of legal violations just because we broke one law. I could be a serial speeder without having murdered a single person in my whole life.

We all know that there are laws and there are laws. Some are almost never enforced (anti-jaywalking, at least in most of the country, speeding as long as you are less than what 5 or 10 mph over the limit) because they are stupid or just not worth the effort to enforce. You could change the law to permit jaywalking, but politicians probably think that sends the wrong message, so everyone condones breaking a law that is not enforced.

I have never been an employer, so I do not speak from a wealth of experience, but employers in certain sectors or regions of the country could have come to believe that employing illegal labor was an "accepted practice" even though it violates the law. Some may even want to follow the law, but are "forced" by "competition" to do what others are doing - kind of like not wanting to jaywalk, but the next crosswalk or intersection is just too far away.

You could argue that everyone should follow every law, until the bad laws are changed and the good laws strictly enforced. Or you could argue that everyone should follow laws that you agree with, but they can ignore laws that you don't feel strongly about. In reality it seems inevitable to me that enforcement of particular laws is responsive to political pressure in terms of which laws "society" deems are important and which are "jaywalking" laws. For a long time many may have viewed hiring illegal immigrants was breaking a "jaywalking" law. That can change with the right political pressure, but the employers' "crime" will be worse, in my view, if they continue to do it, after they are aware that they are breaking a "real" (we really do care about this) law.

[spoony]

82. Of course I'm talking about employers

And if they so flagrantly violate human rights by screwing over both US and migrant labour (which is enough cause to shut them down), why should I trust that ANYTHING they do would be in the interests of their consumers?

[Peace Patriot]

4. Deport Bush and Cheney! Leave our Mexican brothers and sisters alone!

We're all victims of Corporate Rule! It's stupid and unfair to blame poor workers for it, and encourage immigration cops to punish them with wrenching, scary separations from their family, sometimes leaving stranded children, ugly, bewildering detention, mistreatment, complete disruption of lives. Think what peril and difficulty they face getting here, and what fear they live with every day. I think this is cruel--and typical of Bush who wants slave labor but then kicks the slaves to shore up his sagging fortunes. And to support it is stupid because we should be joining with exploited workers to improve all labor conditions and to stop the greed-mad US-based global corporate predators who are destroying the bottom two-thirds of the Mexican and central and south American economies, leaving the poor with NO CHOICE but to migrate to wherever they think they can find work. These are family people, good people, who are just trying to take care of their children and elderly, and make a meager living and have hope.

Don't blame the victims! Change the world! Evict the "free traders"! Evict the murderers and liars, and the traitorous corporations and the despicable, greedy "have mores"! Create a level playing field of justice and peace with the countries they have exploited and impoverished! Stop being like them, thinking only of your own privilege and benefit. Think bigger! Bring compassion and decency back into public life!

[shrdlu]

5. Illegal Aliens is the term. Enough of this namby-pamby...

"undocumented" bullshit.

"National news reports have estimated that U.S. authorities arrested and detained at least 750 immigrants in raids across the country in the last month or so..."

Seven-hundred and fifty; 750 out of twelve million; 12,000,000.

They should be frightened. They're criminals.

[Odin2005]

8. "Undocumented worker" is one of the most ridiculous euphemisms out there.

[TankLV]

16. I have to agree.

Deport them all.

[auburnblu]

115. Especially if they have a driver's ;icense and TIN

Its a crazy term for someone here illegally. If you have a driver's license and a taxpayer identification number you probably shouldn't be considered undocumented.

[shanti]

15. you gonna do their work for them?

hmmm?

[Odin2005]

20. I'm sure many people gladly would.

The whole "they do what us Americans won't do" is Corporatist propaganda.

[High Plains]

78. We've got openings at the local meat packing plant.

C'mon out and do that job Americans won't do.

[ISUGRADIA]

101. Uh, Americans used to do those jobs

until the unions were broken and illegal aliens were brought in to work at extremely reduced wages. Make those jobs pay real wages again with union protection and you won't have trouble filling them.

[Megahurtz]

47. If They WERE Deported

the Companies would be forced to higher the previously low wages
under Illegal Immigrants according to the Law.
I'm sure there are plenty people here that need work.

[spoony]

69. You sound like a member of the CATO institute

"They're only doing jobs Americans won't do..."

"Employers can't REALLY afford to pay livable wages..."

It's nonsense.

[proud2BlibKansan]

56. Technically, they aren't illegal

anymore than a jaywalker or a speeder is illegal. Crossing the border without papers is a civil offense. So unless you want to call jaywalkers criminals, then you really should use the term "undocumented".

[kestrel91316]

86. Jaywalkers and speeders ARE criminals. They may not be felons,

but that's beside the point.

I expect newcomers to show respect to the US by obeying our laws. And that starts by recognizing our national sovereignty and right to control our own borders.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

96. Who are you? Mother Teresa?

When was the last time you broke the law?

[MisterP]

6. the sanctuary movement began when Catholic churches hid

Central American refugees from deportation--since the mass-murdering military dictatorships would've blowtorched their faces off (why do you think Roberto d'Aubuisson got that nickname?), with Poopy Bush leveraging whatever he could during the "Reagan Presidency" (if you doze off at Cabinet meetings, it's no longer your Presidency)
indeed, half the undocumented immigrants here currentl are from Central America: their economies are actually worse off than Mexico, which keeps a little more independence in the neoliberal tsunami going on since '82

[Odin2005]

7. I have little sympathy for people who are in this country ILLEGALLY.

Want to immigrate to the US? Wait your turn. Illegal immigration is a slap on the face of the people who immigrated here legally

[High Plains]

9. Didn't I just hear you on right-wing talk radio?

[Odin2005]

10. WTF? Hell no.

[silverojo]

12. "Right-wing"?

Since when is it only right-wingers that support the laws of this country, and don't wish to see them broken?

[BushOut06]

14. I always thought that DUers cared about their fellow humans

Just because it's "the law" doesn't make it right. These people are human beings. This country was founded by illegal aliens, who came in and slaughtered the native population. The Mexicans coming into this country aren't killing anyone, they merely want the right to live and earn a living for their families.

We seem to have developed this over-inflated sense that property belongs to us. We draw borders on the ground, many times through use of force. We separate generations of families at a whim. That so-called border that these "illegal" aliens are crossing was STOLEN from them by us. Now we want to tell these people that they can't travel to this country? What gives us the fucking right to tell people where they can and cannot go?

BTW, by law, any child born in this country is automatically a US citizen. So what are you going to, round up their parents and send them back to Mexico, and take their children away from them?

[Efilroft Sul]

55. The United States did not steal Mexican land.

Prior to the Mexican War, the United States and Mexico were sizing each other up since the 1820s. Both countries were vying for dominance on the North American continent, and things came to blows when the Republic of Texas was annexed. Americans believed in manifest destiny and expansion to the Pacific, but Mexican leaders such as Parades were just as imperialist and desired to take back Texas and seize New Orleans and Mobile, Alabama as well. Back in those days, winning wars meant winning territories. The United States "won" territories that comprise California, the southwest, and Texas. There was a push in Congress to claim all of Mexico, but abolitionists, fearing more slave states would be added to the Union, spiked the movement. Following the war, the United States paid $15 million and assumed the claims of its citizens against Mexico -- and that's a niggling detail that MEChA, La Raza, the Aztlan movement, and apologists for illegals conveniently leave out when they bellyache about land being stolen.

Part of what makes a nation a nation is the control of its borders. The Federal government is neglecting its domestic security duties and ignoring established immigration laws, and cheap-labor conservatives writing the Senate bill are exploiting the "one world, warm tummy feeling" of amnesty supporters and making them out to be useful idiots for the U.S. Chamber of Commerce.

There is a right way and wrong way to come to the United States. Millions of Mexicans who are illegally here are doing it the wrong way, and that's insulting to all foreign nationals who apply for citizenship, swear loyalty to their new homeland, assimilate into our culture, and become productive citizens.

[spoony]

70. For one thing

some of them kill people, let's not be silly. Illegal immigrants are not any less prone to crime than any other people.

For another, if you are concerned about humane treatment of people, why would you support a system that allows corporations to import indentured servants that they pay unlivable wages under the table before sending them home to their illegal flop house they share with five other families that their slum lord gouges them to live in?

[kestrel91316]

88. The jails in LA are OVERWHELMINGLY filled with illegals from

south of the border. Ask anybody in law enforcement here.

[High Plains]

93. Cite, please.

[High Plains]

94. Wrong. LA County Jail holds about 20,000 on any given day.

LA County Sheriff's Office officials have found slightly more than 5,000 illegal aliens passing through the jails in the past two years.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/editorials/la-ed-jails06feb06,0,4164724.story?coll=la-news-comment-editorials

This same editorial says feds estimate as many as 40,000 of the 170,000 that pass through local LA jails in a year could be undocumented. That is a substantial number (but perhaps not surprising in a local undocumented population estimated at around a million), but clearly, the jails in LA are NOT OVERWHELMINGLY FILLED WITH ILLEGALS FROM SOUTH OF THE BORDER. At best (or worst), they account for about 20%.

Facts are a good thing.

[coalition_unwilling]

36. You probably would have supported slavery, pre-1860. After all,

that was the law of the land back then, wasn't it?

On edit: And you probably would have supported Jim Crow laws pre-1965.

[pampango]

39. Only if it would have kept low-skilled Blacks from leaving the

Southern plantations and competing with Whites for factory and construction jobs in the North. ;) (Just kidding.)

[coalition_unwilling]

40. Great response. So many RWers who post on DU seem to

confuse "rule of law" with "justice," a topic on which the abolitionists and Martin Luther King, Jr. had plenty to say.

[SayWhatYo]

104. So anyone who disagrees with you on this issue is a right winger?

It seems as if the open border lovers are the ones who are right wing. Open the borders... It's good for big business.

[Odin2005]

117. Right-winger? I'm a fucking SOCIALIST and you call me a right-winger?

:eyes:

[spoony]

71. Funny you should bring up slavery

Because if you support illegal immigration you are lending your support to corporate SLAVERY.

[pampango]

75. That depends on your definition of "slavery".

If the immigrants are crossing the border willingly, in many cases taking a lot of risks and paying a lot of money to do it; working then at jobs which I consider to be low-paying, but they may not, given their alternatives; in many cases staying here indefinitely working a succession of jobs; in many other cases going back home with savings to improve their families' lives there; perhaps the second generation that growing up here and being able to break the bonds of migrant work.

None of these characteristics make them "slaves" in my book and to call them that demeans people who really were slaves historically and are slaves in modern times. I am sure that there are cases of illegal immigrants who are not paid wages they are due, forcibly detained at their place of employment and other nasty things. These must be perceived as the "exceptions" not the "rule" or the inflow of these workers would have abated, if it was common knowledge that they were coming into a cesspool of slavery.

[coalition_unwilling]

77. I'm afraid you are stretching ingenuity to its limits, not to mention

inventing a whole new category ('corporate slavery') that confuses the issue.

Slavery was the law of the land until 1860. Does that mean you would have supported it?

[spoony]

81. You may want to point that wormy old chestnut elsewhere

because I don't give a damn about it being the law, that isn't the point at all. The point is that illegal immigration does a grave disservice to all parties involved except the corporate whores who get off on the idea of cheap subjugated labour.

[coalition_unwilling]

84. If the "law" isn't the point, then why keep harping on the word

"illegal"? Isn't the problem really global capitalism?

[spoony]

102. Yes, and I am not terribly concerned with the label

"illegal" as it's simply the common usage.

[kestrel91316]

87. Thank you.

[silverojo]

13. Self-delete

Duplicate post

[TankLV]

17. RULE OF LAW - it's not just a "right wing" pet.

If our Democratic Party is not careful, the nutjobs supporting this ILLEGAL behavior will give them a new wedge issue to weasel out another victory...

It's appalling that too many here support the ILLEGAL population here.

[Odin2005]

21. The BS is a result of a knee-jerk assumption that it's all about racism, it's not.

If these illegals were from, say, Poland, people wouldn't give a damn about deporting them, but since most illegal immigrants now days come from Latin America the race card gets pulled out.

[proud2BlibKansan]

57. They are not illegal

They are human beings.

[Odin2005]

118. That are in this country illegally.

your point?

[RebelOne]

24. Nothing right wing about that comment.

I agree with the poster.

[EFerrari]

37. They're bellowing right wing code for segregation

and they don't even know it. Holy cow.

[Odin2005]

119. Yep, sure, I'm a closet racist. NOT!!!

[High Plains]

44. Right-wing talk radio is full of people screaming about this bill.

I urge DUers who are adopting the same position as the right-wing shouters to contemplate this common position and what it implies.

[proud2BlibKansan]

58. They need to start listening to the hate mongers on rw radio

and watching them on TV. They may understand what we are getting at. I turned on Glenn Beck the other day and he was saying something I had just read on DU that very day.

Do me a favor - if I EVER say anything even remotely similar to what Glenn Beck says, shut me up - fast!

[silverojo]

11. Simple solution

* Enter this country LEGALLY, like immigrants from other countries do.

* Quit expecting preferential treatment and thinking you can enter illegally.

* Learn English--nobody's asking you to stop speaking Spanish at home, just use English when doing business with other people. Americans are expected to be literate (able to read and write English) to get jobs. Again, quit expecting preferential treatment.

* Quit hiding in churches every time things don't go your way.

Very few people would complain about Hispanic immigrants, if they'd just reach out in friendship and respect the laws of the country where they wish to live.

[High Plains]

79. Preferential treatment?

You mean like the homosexuals and the nigrahs?

[leftwing9]

108. Responses to simple solution

*Immigrants from other countries enter legally because there is no waiting period for them to do so. The United States still has immigration quotas which prohibit Mexicans (and Asian Indians) from entering the country without a long waiting period.

*I'm not sure what you mean by preferential treatment. My previous point should illuminate the fact that circumstances cosnpire against Mexican immigrants. I'm quite certain they don't get preferential treatment while they're here.

*You confuse "speaking English" with "being literate." Certainly it's to everyone's advantage to learn to speak English. However, it's also to everyone's advantage to take a course in filling out one's tax forms, or to learn how to change a car's oil, or to program one's own computer, but these things aren't a matter of law.

*You have no concept of justice, but thankfully churches do.

[NaturalHigh]

18. I have no sympathy for people in this country illegally.

As far as I'm concerned, the feds should do their jobs and deport them.

[dflprincess]

19. Any word on what will happen to the companies who employed these people?

:sarcasm:

[kestrel91316]

89. Confiscate their corporate assets and sell them to the highest

bidder, for all I care. And jail the corporate officers AFTER seizing all THEIR assets.

[pampango]

92. Do we have to prove that they knew they were hiring illegal workers

or can we just assume that? Unless they are small scale, unsophisticated employers, it may be difficult to prove that they knew the immigration documents they received were fraudulent. If you can prove it, then prosecute the the full extent that you can, then pass new laws and prosecute some others.

Should we prosecute them, though, for unwittingly being duped and for not being as highly trained as immigration officers at detecting fake documents? I may "know" that these employers are in on the scam, but police "know" a lot of things that they can't prosecute, until they get the evidence. Should we prosecute the clerk at 7-11 for accepting fake $20 bills? Should he or she have known better?

[kestrel91316]

105. I don't think the hotel corporations or fast food corporations or

packing plants are being "duped" in any way, shape, or form. They know damned well they are hiring illegals. It's corporate policy to increase profits.

[David__77]

23. The borders are bloodsoaked.

How was the US border forged? We should not forget the peoples that were wiped out and expropriated to forge the currently-constituted US border.

If imperialism hadn't so decimated the third world countries, perhaps people wouldn't be seeking to go elsewhere. Chickens coming home to roost and all...

[Mudoria]

26. Who did these Mexican's steal these lands

from? I believe the Native American's might have the original ownership of these lands. Can't steal from a thief as they say...

[EFerrari]

29. That was Spain. Geezus.

This is going to be a long week.

[Mudoria]

41. Every week must be long if you're

actually this dense. :nopity:

[EFerrari]

42. I'm dense because I know history?

lol

[JetCityLiberal]

59. sfexpat dense? No.

What bs mudoria. :puke:

[leftwing9]

109. Funny you should say that, actually...

...as almost all Mexicans themselves are "Mestizos," a genetic mix of Europeans and Native Americans.

Mexico has a considerably more enlightened history in their treatment of race relations. They outlawed slavery before we did and weren't quite so vicious to Native Americans.

[pampango]

31. For those here who have reservations about the effect of

illegal immigration on American workers, telling them that this is just "Chickens coming home to roost...for what the corporations have done in the Third World" may not be your most convincing argument. (And I basically support most of the proposed legislation and its legalization component.)

I feel a little guilty any time I go to someone and tell them to stop complaining, someone else screwed up and they are just paying the price for that. Better to convince them that they are not paying a price or that there is a higher moral purpose at stake here, if you can be that convincing.

[sanskritwarrior]

50. So wait due to historical events that happened 100 years or more

before our births, we are not allowed to defend our borders, punish lawbreakers, and uphold the rule of law?

FRIKKING AMAZING the flawed logic the illegal immigrant defenders use. Because the US went to war and took land from Mexico in a peace treaty we are not supposed to stop people from violating our laws???? Yeah that makes sense :banghead:

[David__77]

51. It means the laws should be amended to allow easy immigration.

I'm not advocating "lawlessness," but that immigration laws should be very loosely-written to allow for millions of people of come to the US if they so wish. I think that it's historically just in light of past events, as well as present events. Latin America has sufferred greatly from US actions, and still does to this day.

[sanskritwarrior]

67. Why?

Should we rewrite other laws as well, what makes illegal immigration supporters so willing to bend the laws of this land to get what they want. How are supporters of illegal immigrants any different than Bush who violates laws he doesn't like??

[pampango]

73. I comes down to the morality of the laws being broken and the reality

of ~12 million illegal immigrants already here.

To some here the morality of immigration laws and their enforcement are questionable enough to make a comparison to Jim Crow laws of the pre-civil rights era. I think that we are all glad that those laws were rewritten, or dumped altogether. While many would argue that immigration laws could be improved, some also feel that breaking "immoral" laws does not carry the same stigma as mugging someone or robbing a bank.

Even those who do not question the morality of current immigration legislation have to deal with the reality of the ~12 million already here, the vast majority of whom did not come here to hurt anyone or take anyone's property, but to work hard and be paid relatively low wages - not exactly your classic criminals. Many have been here for a long time and have children who are American citizens. It doesn't make anything right or wrong, but it does make any solution that involves large scale repatriation a difficult, and in many cases morally questionable, undertaking.

I suppose that we all support the "rule of law" when we believe that the current legal structure protects us or is consistent with our beliefs. Similarly, most of us support those who defy laws that we believe to be immoral. In this instance it really come down to your position on immigration whether you are a "rule of law" person or a "higher morality" person." It is hard for me to trash talk either side too much, because I have been on the other side of that divide when we are talking about different issues.

[Godspeed_Democrats]

27. The frustrating part about all of this is they say

these people do jobs that Americans feel are beneath them. I find that a bunch of crap. Here in
SE Georgia I saw about 15 illegals working construction, after a raid that scared most of them out of town I saw about 6-8 African-American guys working the same jobs. It seems that they get more workers that are illegal for less money. When they have to pay legal residents more money they have less workers.

Some people will tell you they can't get Americans to do the jobs, truth is they don't want to pay a decent wage.x(

[kestrel91316]

91. Ask anyone who has been to NO since they started the Katrina cleanup.

Mariachi music on Bourbon St rather than jazz, and nothing but Mexican and Central American illegal labor - the poor black population who WANTED those jobs and had right of first refusal on them, IMHO, got COMPLETELY SHUT OUT.

Makes me sick.

[leftwing9]

110. Yeah, there's a lot of bad arguments on the right side of this issue, in my opinion....

I support undocumented workers because I feel mercy for other human beings is more important than the strict enforcement of laws.

I support undocumented workers because the U.S. government has, for the last forty years or so, pursued disastrous free-trade arrangements which have decimated economies throughout the Western hemisphere.

I support undocumented workers because this country never was culturally or linguistically homogenous. For all I know, my German ancestors went two or three generations before learning English. (You could do this in the 18th century.)

I DO NOT support the rationalization that undocumented workers do jobs that Americans will not do. American corporations worked long and hard over the course of many generations to transform what should be safe, high-paying union jobs to dangerous, garbage-wage jobs. And Americans would still work them! But because of their poverty, Mexicans work them for less, and the media rationalizes "Americans would work this job if it had proper security and paid decently" as "Americans won't."

[pork medley]

28. the whole point of allowing "illegal immigration" is to drive down wages

[nolabels]

53. or just help make day labor and domestic help more affordable

The feds are just shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic. I am most just guessing this just some kind ruse. As i passed Home-Depot coming home this morning seen what must of been over a hundred migrants in the parking lot waiting for someone to drive up and hire them.

There is gridlock in congress and the crap bill that is floating around congress on immigration will never pass the house or get sorted out otherwise. This is a congress that is mostly chosen and installed by corporations that has great interests in the benefits from cheap migrant labor. People shouldn't think for a minute that the controlling majority of congress intend to do what is best for the voting public at any time. That won't do it because there is not enough force to make them, plain and simple.

[diamidue]

30. This is the part that worries me:

.."National news reports have estimated that U.S. authorities arrested and detained at least 750 immigrants in raids across the country in the last month or so."..

How many of these immigrants are being secretly "detained" in Halliburton camps - rather than just being deported back across the border?

[EFerrari]

32. And how many of those people are American citizens?

Because we all know how careful the feds are, don't we?

[Flanker]

33. Sad the racist hatred against Mexicans

The shock when I realized this was not Freerepublic.

[EFerrari]

35. Liberty & Justice for Some!

:(

[sanskritwarrior]

49. Yep for legal law abiding citizens

not for illegal law breakers from south of the border........nor east, north or west of our borders.....

[EFerrari]

60. That's not what the Declaration of Independence says, is it?

But then, that document may also be "quaint" in these interesting times.

[sanskritwarrior]

66. So where exactly does the declaration say we should reward

law breakers? It must be the one you wrote yourself.........

[spoony]

72. It also says native americans are savages

and lays down a gigantic lie about freedom for all when the signatories owned other people: just like corporations want to do today.

[Bridget Burke]

97. So--you don't like legal immigrants, either.

No surprise.

[sanskritwarrior]

100. Who said anything about legal immigrants, my mom is one.......

she followed the rules and was rewarded, unlike the people that just cross the border knowingly violating our laws.

[Bridget Burke]

103. You said law abiding CITIZENS....

We've got plenty of law-abiding residents who aren't citizens.

Did your Mom's marriage to a citizen help her case?

[sanskritwarrior]

106. no she met dad years after she EARNED her citizenship

[goodhue]

38. indeed, it baffles me everytime

The ICE folks were out harassing people in south Minneapolis on Saturday
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mnimmigrantfreedom/sets/72157600233342311/
http://www.startribune.com/462/story/1194514.html

And are being sued for their ILLEGAL raids in Willmar last month
http://www.startribune.com/462/story/1193728.html

Luckily many Minnesotans won't stand for this, and ICE will find itself in damage control soon.

[EFerrari]

43. It's really awful that the police are working with ICE.

All kinds of lines are being crossed here that shouldn't ever be crossed.

[Megahurtz]

48. Racist My Ass

they're a Country not a Race.

[ohio2007]

64. Mexicans? Why do you single out Mexicans?

All immigrants looking for work must be Mexicans ?

Isn't that a stereotyping ?

[Odin2005]

120. Typical BS assumption that this is about race.

[Zookeeper]

45. Self-delete. (Wrong raid) n/t

[noamnety]

52. So now misogyny is the fault of Mexicans?

My biggest complaint is when walking through the mall with my daughter who is in her early teens and she is constantly looked looked at by the mexican decent men who speak in spanish. We live in America and our language is English...

Whoever wrote that needs to figure out what they're upset about.

Are they okay with men leering at their daughter - so long as they speak English? Are they under the impression that Americans don't leer at women and girls?

Maybe their energy would be better spent addressing gender issues in general, and contemplating why girls in our society can't just walk through a mall without being sized up sexually. That ain't the fault of "the Mexicans" for chrissakes.

[leftwing9]

112. Haven't you got the memo?

Any negative characteristic of one Mexican becomes a permanent fault of all Mexicans. (sarcasm)

[LanternWaste]

54. The tighter money becomes for people, the easier it is to justify

The tighter money becomes for people, the easier it is to justify to ourselves that it's "their" fault (whoever "them" happens to be for the time).

I guess I agree with Victor Hugo when he wrote (paraphrasing), "some men believe that imaginary red and black lines on a map are more important than people...".

[tidy_bowl]

61. All I am saying is....

....when my Japanese wife and I waded through all the forms, fees and hassles to get her legalized (from a student visa) in 2003, we did it legally. Why can't everyone else do the same or is there a provision to compensate us for following the law? Just asking since it seems you get more by breaking the law eventually.

[ohio2007]

65. The ugly truth is a multiplying problem

Your patience was a virtue. Most illegals don't have that kind of time or money.
People come to the US to make a sub minimum wage and send it back to their hungry families where that money goes a long way .( big suprise huh )

The family grows and the sons go north to work at a sub minimum.... to feed their hungry young families.

Its a cycle that multiplies.

Maybe if the US dollar should drop sharply in value world wide it may not be worth the trip sneaking over the border.


well,
Thats my opinion and I'm entitled to it

[Bridget Burke]

95. Your wife was lucky she married a citizen....

At least she got her foot in the door.

And I doubt she was cleaning hotel rooms to support herself.

[Bo]

80. DEPORT THEM THEY ARE HERE ILLEGALLY....

....and costing hard working honest Americans a ton of money.

[leftwing9]

111. Regressive corporate policies and a compliant government...

are costing hard-working Americans a lot of money.

It's easier to yell at the brown-skinned newcomers, but it isn't right or productive.

[K in FL]

113. Agreed

And our elected officials are going to give them 8 years to
become legal. Corporate greed at it's finest.

[nitestar41]

90. IMHO...

There are a lot of undocumented workers in this country. There is a lot of red tape for people who want anything in this country to go through. Some have started families in this country and their children are legal but their parents aren't. I am a strong supporter of easing the immigration laws for those who want to become citizens. However, if they are only here to work they need to get a work Visa because all though they may do the jobs that few others will, there are those that are citizens that are willing to do anything just to support their families.

I also have a problem if they only want to leach off of our services, because it only takes away from others. So I guess maybe I believe that there should be a requirement of employment for those who wish to become citizens to prove that they are not just out to get all they can.

But do I think that all undocumented need to be shipped back? no I think if they are doing all they can to show they would be a good addition to this nation then by all means lets find a way to make it easier for them to be a part of our nation, after all if they are citizens, they can vote and ATM I think they aren't any happier with the Republicans then many in this nation... Oh wait that's why the republicans are so up in arms against helping them, isn't it? :yoiks:

[Vilis Veritas]

98. I just hope the backlash from this is peaceful...

A large scale disruption to the government could be cause to enact the Shadow Government that is allowable under NSPD 51.

Piss off a group of people that have nothing to lose and you could get a nasty protest.

Just the kind of thing shrub and his puppeteers are looking for to enact Marshall Law...

I will take off my :tinfoilhat: now...

[Blue_Tires]

99. there is a big crackdown here in VA

after that drunk driving accident where Bill o' liely called out every politician in the state....

[auburnblu]

116. Just Mexicans?

Not sure what of illegals are Mexican, maybe 2/3. However its interesting that a newspaper classifies all illegals as Mexican.