Pentagon issues blunt warning to China

[Judi Lynn]

Source: MSNBC/Associated Press

Pentagon issues blunt warning to China
Report says China’s military likely to add to Beijing-Washington strains

Updated: 39 minutes ago
WASHINGTON - The Pentagon is warning China in blunt language that despite Beijing’s massive military buildup, it lacks the power for a successful attack against rival Taiwan.

The annual report on China’s military, released Friday, is likely to add to rising tension between Washington and Beijing at a time when U.S. lawmakers are considering bills that would punish China for what they contend are predatory trade practices.

The report was released on the day the largest high-level Chinese delegation ever to visit the United States left Washington after economic meetings with frustrated lawmakers and with senior Bush administration officials yielded few results.

In the report, the Defense Department explicitly describes what would happen if China should attack Taiwan, the self-governing democratic island that Beijing claims as its own. It says China does not yet have “the military capability to accomplish with confidence its political objectives on the island, particularly when confronted with the prospect of U.S. intervention.”



Read more: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18875239/

[jamesinca]

1. What?

We are going to intervene with the 4 guys not in the war on terror? "particularly when confronted with the prospect of U.S. intervention.”


Unless they start a nuclear war, we are not going to have a snowballs chance against China. They call in all the US debt that is owed, cut off Wal Mart and the US is done. We will not win a land war in Asia against 1/4 of the worlds population, especially when you consider the logistics. They are right next door, the US would have to come across an entire ocean. And starting a nuclear war may kill the Chinese, but there will not be anything left of the US either. I don't think Russia would stay out of that one.

[ixion]

5. not to mention manpower... we've got no Army left

[Silence Dogood]

7. If we continue to allow China sending us poisoned food stuffs

they won't need to start a war.

[hack89]

11. The only way we can intervene with Taiwan

is with Naval and Air Forces. The idea would be to gain air superiority and interdict Chinese landing craft before they could land their troops. There is no need for large US ground forces - the Taiwanese have adequate numbers of ground troops.

[Kagemusha]

20. Like naval and air forces aren't quite enough here.

The Chinese aren't gonna SWIM across that water. The media may call it a warning, but the Chinese themselves are well aware that it's the blunt truth. China can inflict pain and vice versa but a decisive invasion is risky and probably wasteful, even if it might prove a partial success. So as long as Taiwan doesn't do really stupid things to provoke China into trying it even despite the risk, it's unlikely China will just roll the dice on a conflict where losing costs them massive prestige and credibility (see: Argentina, Falklands)

[liquiduniverse]

22. If we're at war with China, we won't have to worry about them calling our debt

The US would not honor it in that case, so we'd knock 2 trillion dollars off of the national debt.

There are other benefits too...

• A large war could possibly provide the impetus for the people in China to revolt and finally topple their tyrannical government.


• Lack of cheap plastic goods would be a boost to the US manufacturing industry. As would the ramped-up production of military equipment.


• No more tainted food imports would boost agricultural production in the U.S.


• Taiwan could finally gain nation status.

Not that I'm advocating a U.S. war against them – just saying... ;)

[tabasco]

29. Wow, you could have been a planner in the 3rd Reich.

All the rosy scenarios that war will create!

Is that you Richard Perle?

Still waiting for the Iraqis to throw flowers at us instead of bombs?

Here's a link for you John or Jane Wayne. Ask for "eleven-bravo."

www.goarmy.com

[liquiduniverse]

34. lol - sorry, just trying to see the glass as half full

Obviously there would be a lot of adverse results from a war with China, from the human toll to the environmental destruction.

But you or I may not have much of a choice in the matter. If China were to ever attack Taiwan as they have threatened many times in the past, I think the rest of the world would have no choice but to defend Taiwan.

Of course Bushco might try to antagonize China to attack Taiwan - this is something that we can put a stop to.

[tabasco]

40. Yeah, a lot of "adverse results" but look at the upside!!

Maybe we should catch Bin Laden before we start discussing conquering China.

BTW - is China massing forces for an invasion or is this just more bullshit to get the chickenhawks in a frenzy?

[frankieT]

32. ROFL what wishful thinking !

[davsand]

38. Frankly, that debt cancellation was the first thought I had when I saw that headline.

More than a few are uneasy at the amount of US paper the Chinese are holding right now. While calling in that debt would probably end up impacting their own economy negatively in the end, it is still an option that the Chinese have, and it is one that sends shivers down the spine of a lot of people--including the neo-cons.

I do think that some of your other points are probably present, but I seriously think the economics could drive a lot of this. Seriously, when was the last time these guys actually gave a crap about ANY other nation unless it involved a profit of some kind? Caring and concerned about human rights is not exactly their MO. Rape, Pillage and plunder (especially of a financial sort) seems to be more their style.


Laura

[Ilsa]

42. And with as much as we owe them, I suspect they don't want a default.

Neither do I. The last thing we need is for the rating of US debt instruments to hit the toilet.

[billbuckhead]

50. General Motors depends on China for profits&parts including high tech engines

A huge percentage of the computers in use in America are made in China or have Chinese parts. What about your camera? Your tools? Your flat screen TV?

And now we have found out that China is part of our food supply.

[frankieT]

56. Not honoring the debt is not an option

It will send US financial system down to the toilet. And it is pretty much the main economic power for US.

[knight_of_the_star]

58. Let's take this apart

"A large war could possibly provide the impetus for the people in China to revolt and finally topple their tyrannical government."

Not likely, while there is considerable unrest in China the PRC fighting Taiwan and us wouldn't strain their assets sufficiently for something like that to happen.

"Lack of cheap plastic goods would be a boost to the US manufacturing industry. As would the ramped-up production of military equipment"

Yeah sure, first we would be hitting a serious economic blow to the kneecaps as large chunks of the economy would cease to work, even if that's only temporary that could put us into a seriously nasty downward spiral.

"No more tainted food imports would boost agricultural production in the U.S."

I don't think we can boost agricultural production here more than we have unless we start carving up national parks.

"Taiwan could finally gain nation status."

Most likely not, that would require diplomatic recognition from all over the world and that's not too likely as even if China loses they are still a much greater force than Taiwan.

[hippiechick]

2. One Rapture, coming up ...

:eyes:

[RC]

3. bu$h's hand picked genius's at the Pentagon

counting the money to be made in a war with China?
What's the worse that could happen? Another asteroid belt where the Earth used to be.

[MrPrax]

4. Wonder what the Koreans think...

Not only the is the US re-injecting the dubious Taiwan file (for some reason), a war would pretty much kill efforts over there to normalize relationships with North Korea and move to eventually removing the wildly unpopular US presence in Korea.

Imagine if you will a scenario where the US is going to insist that little South Korea be used in whole or in part for a possible land base for attacking China. I don't need to find out what the Korean 'street' might think about all this.

Moreover, a war would definitely have a side-effect of 'mothballing' whatever might be left of the Korean economy. That wouldn't hurt economic rivals Japan or China, btw.

[Solo_in_MD]

17. The Chinese are pushing this and have been for some time

Its clear that China and Taiwan are two different nations and should be recognized as such. After the way Hong Kong was done, any sentient Tiawanese wants nothing to do with reunification.

[frankieT]

35. You're talkin politics here

Maybe taiwanese don't want reunification, but historically speaking they will eventually do it. It's the SAME PEOPLE, they're chinese too. They parted for political reasons, reunification will come when political conditions will change. Exactly like Germany did after communism collapse.

[Solo_in_MD]

44. In that case its going to be a long wait

The PRC is in no danger of collapse, though it may choke in its own waste and pollution

[frankieT]

55. Oh you know China have plenty of time

The historical scale is larger than the political one.
When i gave the example of Germany, it was for the sake of the argument. If we speak of changing political conditions, we can watch events within 5 to 20 years, we can easily imagine China richer, more powerful and US on a declining slope.

[MrPrax]

45. ???

Back to the Future...circa 1984?

Um...my comments were about Korea. The other country with a unification problem courtesy of US policy? Remember? Korea? What does Hong Kong or Macao have to do with anything?

Your ref points are back in the 'Miami Vice' days...

Seriously dude -- the Koreas have start a basic train service between the two countries...the US is spent. It's done. You lost. History has moved on. You been lied to...get used to it and start working for change. Unless of course you are working to do just that; to have your country collapse so it can then become a police state?

[Solo_in_MD]

46. Some Koreans are having more dobuts these days then in the past

the lessons of East Germany are not lost on them.

I don't think the US really care that much about reunification provided it is not involve us in armed conflict. NK is already rotting corpse, its just not clear how its going to fall apart.

[kurth]

6. China's military is way overrated

The last time they waged war against a neighbor (Vietnam) in 1979:

"The Chinese did suffer an extremely high casualty rate of 25%. This was confirmed during a visit to the US in the 1980s by the chief-of-general-staff of the PLA, Yang Dezhi (杨得志) who commanded the Chinese troops in Vietnam. Li Xiannian, then chairman of China, stated during a news conference that the Vietnamese claim of having destroyed half of the Chinese tank contingent in Vietnam was true".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_War

[iamjoy]

8. You Need A Better Source

wikipedia is a great research tool for "fun" and a quick overview, but I wouldn't cite them as a source.

Anyway, don't you think it possible China's army has changed since then? And remember, we couldn't "win" in Vietnam either.

Overall, I'm not so worried about the Chinese army. I'm worried about the Chinese bankers.

[SpiralHawk]

9. "We will sic Commander AWOL and Five Deferments Cheney on you." - Pentagon

"And then we will follow that up with a Mass Wave Attack of republicon chickenhawks: Limbaugh, O'Reilly, Hannity, and all the rest. So you better have your oxycontin and felafel ready to fling, because these are some tough-talking republicon chickenhawks, and you can bet your Fortune Cookie that they will say some mean things about you, or whatever."

- Pentagon

[soothsayer]

10. we will do anything to keep them from tanking our economy

including bombing Iran to cut off china's oil for a month or so.

[Vidar]

12. Trying once more for the Bush version of Gotterdamerung.

[BohemianJordy]

13. Im confused,

Has China been making explicit threats to Taiwan lately or what?

I haven't heard anything and was just curious...

[Warren Stupidity]

15. China considers Taiwan a province of China.

They have a reasonable argument. The old nationalist government in exile considered China a province of Taiwan :-)

But regardless of that there has been a military standoff there for the last 50 years or so.

[BohemianJordy]

24. haha yeah

Im studying in China right now and have been doing some study on Chinese nationalism (although Tibetan relations are more my focus).

Which is why I'm curious about the US response. I had a long talk with my professor about the Taiwan situation the other day, which is why I was wondering the US response.

According to the professor, the status-quo is really beneficial to both parties...economically there are alot of Taiwanese merchandise that is bought and used here and many taiwanese business (including one of the largest store chains in China, although I think walmart is buying it out), and quite frankly it would hinder both economies for China to invade. The two countries are still technically in a civil war...but unless Taiwan officially declared independence, China wouldn't really have a reason to attack.

As well as the fact that Taiwan is more "chinese" than China and has retained more of its culture, many Taiwanese consider themselves Taiwanese and Chiense, or simply chinese (although as time goes by less and less identify themselves as Chinese). regardless, there is still talk about reunification AND independence.

I don't know, I just dont get why the US thinks that the only reason China would want a strong military would be to invade Taiwan? I don't really see a basis for that. The growth of the military, at least on this side, seems to be more about national pride than anything else, which lets face it, is the best way to ensure the political status-quo.

[ohio2007]

30. Nice post BohemianJordy

People buy what the MSM sells.
confrontation sells papers.
So, if your in China, we in the west are being told you do not have full access to the internet.
When you goggle Tianemen Square (sp) Do you get any links to a student protest that centered around a statue they constructed in the square ?

[Warren Stupidity]

14. "Beijing’s massive military buildup"

One picture is worth a thousand words.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Worldwide_military_spending_2005.svg

[Solo_in_MD]

19. Those figures are bogus

The amount of $$$ in hardware alone is much larger than that.

[Warren Stupidity]

21. No they aren't.

Of course official military budgets for most nations (especially ours) are fudged and obfuscated to hide all sorts of spending. These particular numbers are:

"Unless otherwise noted, figures are for 2005. Expenditures are used in a few cases where official budgets are significantly lower than actual spending.

Sources: International Institute for Strategic Studies, U.S. Department of Defense"
http://www.armscontrolcenter.org/archives/002244.php

But regardless of the actual dollar figures, the grossly disproportionate military spending relationship between the US and every other nation on the planet remains unchanged.

[entanglement]

51. We outspend the next dozen or so countries put together

More, by some estimates

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/02/12/MNG41H78RK1.DTL

And anyway, don't you conservatives love higher defense spending? :)

[youngdem]

25. The graph is made even more stark by the fact that some military spending doesnt show there

There is a lot of spending for secret programs not on the books for good and bad reasons. Also, the NASA military spending and the Dept of Energy's maintenance of our nuclear stockpile, and tens of billions more in odds and ends can be heaped on top of this number.

However, it is worth noting that the cost of production and the cost of labor difference between China and the US is ABSOLUTELY HUGE, and that with $20 monthly soldier salaries and Chinese production costs what they are (and with American graft and corruption in contracts what they are) it could be a lot closer than we think.

Oh, and they have MILLIONS more potential soldiers than we do, almost a BILLION more citizens to draw from and little appreciation for the value of human life.

I wouldn't want to fight them. They are willing to lose much more than we are to prevail.

[Warren Stupidity]

26. Assume everyone obfuscates about the same proportion

of their spending. The relationships shown in that graph remain unchanged. I believe that there is some attempt to adjust costs to reflect relative differences in local economies. Certainly the labor costs you cite are vastly different, but then again our forces depend far more on hardware than on labor. We just bring an unstoppable flood of bombs bullets and big ass weapons to the fight. The point is that we are total hypocrites. How about the Chinese start patrolling the waters between Florida and our break-away province of Cuba?

[Rosa Luxemburg]

16. Speechless!

so it's OK for the US to rape and pillage other countries but not anyone else?

[ohio2007]

18. We could fight them on our shores

with a west coast Longshoreman strike or a refusal to offload pretty much every container ship originating from China.

That would be a devastating blow that sends a message a US Task force off the Chinese coast couldn't come close to attaining.

It sems a blunt warning is different and less threatening than a "sharp warning" would have on the Chinese economy.

[Warren Stupidity]

23. The economic dependency is generally in the other direction.

It is our drive through economy that would fall apart first, not theirs.

[ohio2007]

36. So you think the risk isn't worth the fight.

Refuse to unload a few ships won't send a message at all especially Wal-Mart. Everyone seems to have a beef about them but nobody is willing to take it past the "talk" stage.
ie
Nobody is willing to sacrifice with a real boycott. Nobody wants to pay for union wages when they shop but prefer to say workers are being exploited at the lowest of levels by Wal-Mart big business.

True, Americans on this side may be laid off while products on their side sit on the factory docks but
which has the better social safety net if congress considers taking actions against China ?

[Warren Stupidity]

39. I am not at war with China.

The OP was about: "Pentagon issues blunt warning to China" - a military issue not an economic one, for which you suggested that we refuse to unload their ships, a remedy which will cause huge hardship here at home, not so much over there in China, and do nothing to alter China's military budget. And all for some imagined military threat from China?

Or are you simply hijacking this thread to talk about some other issue?

[grilled onions]

27. What ABout The Issue Of Food Safety--Forget War For One Second!!

Every day China is endangering the lives of every U.S. citizen with tainted this,contaminated that. Our lives, the lives of our pets should of SOME concern to our Washington Wonders.:mad:

[ohio2007]

37. That would require a boycott or trade embargo bill

What congressman are willing to fight that fight by submitting such a bill?

LOL
ya know
..money got them into office. They have promises to keep

[candice]

60. Vote with your pocketbook! Support local farmers markets...

don't buy anything from China, if possible. Since I've been look at alternatives (and not buying anything new I don't really, really need), I've found much better products made in America (and without the added lead that may be in Chinese glazes--the F.D.A. doesn't check).

[tabasco]

28. How nice that the Pentagon is conducting our foreign affairs now.

I remember the old days when people called "diplomats" used something called "diplomacy" to take care of this stuff.

[Kolesar]

43. Like when the police and the prison lobby tell the government what the drug laws should be...eom

[donkeyotay]

48. Nowadays we use neoplomacy, which goes something like this:

Do as we say.
Do as we say right now.
Country X is not doing what we told them to do.
We're losing patience.
All options are on the table.

[Doremus]

31. They're kidding, right?

"An attack could severely damage China’s economy and lead to international sanctions, spur a Taiwan insurgency that could tie up the Chinese military for years, and possibly cause Beijing to lose its coveted hosting rights for the 2008 Olympics, the report said."

I guess it's one of those 'do as I say, not as I do' things, huh?

[DU GrovelBot]

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[LynnTheDem]

41. LOL!

Good luck with that!

[w4rma]

47. Good. We should protect our ally, Taiwan, from invaders. (nt)

[Triana]

49. I wish they'd warn them in blunt language...

..to KEEP their goddamned tainted pet food ingredients, their tainted toothpaste ingredients, their tainted FISH, and their tainted livestock feed and to STOP POISONING AMERICANS and to keep their inferior cheap CRAP that they import into the US.

[High Plains]

57. If Americans didn't want China's "inferior cheap crap"...

we wouldn't be buying the hell out of it.

[Triana]

61. TRY to find something NOT made in China..

...or try to find something "made in the USA"

Go ahead. Dare ya.

[lovuian]

52. China is the real superpower and Bush Nixon and Reagan

made their worst nightmare

http://youtube.com/watch?v=79ipvNKwr7E

http://youtube.com/watch?v=pVDsmGWhG6w

Pentagon is getting nervous...and rightfully so

[unkachuck]

53. China....

....just wants to put it's economy on a more profitable war footing like ours....they have plenty of people to waste and could use the extra income....

....Europe will get lost, South America, Indonesia, Asia and Russia will side with China....so, c'mon sissys, '...bring it on!', we can handle it, we're the Mighty USA and don't you forget it....

[eridani]

54. If they did attack Taiwan, wouldn't that be like us in Iraq?

Afterwards the "Now what?" moment.

[bamacrat]

59. We have lost all authority to tell any country not to invade another for the hell of it.

We need to become buddies with China, like we are with Isreal and the UK. We cant beat China, at least not right now.