Vt. Secession Movement Gains Traction

[AnOhioan]

Source: Associated Press

MONTPELIER, Vt. (AP) -- At Riverwalk Records, the all-vinyl music store just down the street from the state Capitol, the black "US Out of Vt.!" T-shirts are among the hottest sellers.

But to some people in Vermont, the idea is bigger than a $20 novelty. They want Vermont to secede from the United States - peacefully, of course.

Disillusioned by what they call an empire about to fall, a small cadre of writers and academics hopes to put the question before citizens in March. Eventually, they want to persuade state lawmakers to declare independence, returning Vermont to the status it held from 1777 to 1791.

Neither the state nor the U.S. Constitution explicitly forbids secession, but few people think it is politically viable.



Read more: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/V/VERMONT_SECESSION?SITE=FLTAM&SECTION=US

[RL3AO]

1. Well. Good luck to Vermont. If thats what the people want.

[dave_p]

2. Take the US with it

This is discrimination. It invites a class-action lawsuit by the People of the US against the State of VT.

A Constitutional Convention to replace an absurd 220-year-old joke would be so much easier.

[PittPoliSci]

23. 220 year old joke?

please...

[zanne]

38. I think this is seasonal...

It happens every year.

[NYC Liberal]

27. A new Constitutional Convention would be a DISASTER

You think us "common people" be let in? Think again.

It would be lobbyists and corporations writing up a new Constitution, so if you think this one is bad, wait until you see what they would come up with.

All the pro-corporate legislation we have now would be rolled in -- only this time, it'd be the "Supreme Law of the Land." Everyone would want their own interests in there and protected. Plus they'd try to get all that fundy shit in there too.

[Lilith Velkor]

55. It will have to happen, eventually

The current administration is conducting its affairs as if the old Constitution has already been replaced with the one you described. This trend will continue unless and until they are stopped and brought to justice.

But yes, a new Constitutional Convention would probably ignite a civil war. That, or it would be held in it's aftermath.

[Renew Deal]

3. Good, then I won't pay that ticket.

;)

[More Than A Feeling]

4. A new country for people to threaten to move to when the Republicans are in power.

Meanwhile, we'd lose a state that has produced great senators like Bernie Sanders, Patrick Leahy,George Aiken, and Jim Jeffords.

I'd rather see the Christianists succeed in taking over South Carolina. At least that's a state that's already seceded once, and then we'd have fewer Christianists around.

[Red Zelda]

5. Now, if Sanders can just do ONE thing as a senator.

...I'm all for VT secession. Please, take me with you!

[More Than A Feeling]

6. I wonder what effect that would have on the rest of the country.

If the U.S. didn't threaten war to keep Vermont in the Union, a lot of other states might start to seriously consider leaving. California, perhaps?

[Red Zelda]

9. Great question...

How WOULD Dumbfuckistan react to mass secession now? Probably just keep going to the mall.

We should be 4 or 5 countries anyway. Then the christian nazis in Bammy could buy nukes and threaten the heathens in California.

[Oak2004]

30. The strategy of the second VT republic people is

that the United States won't be able to hold itself together as a continental power -- economic problems, environmental problems, and peak oil will spell the end of the united 50 states at some point in the near future. It's at that point, when the US is beginning to disintegrate, that the VT independence movement expects to achieve independence.

None of them are talking about secession as in guns and battles and Gettysburg redux.

[TrogL]

7. Join the United States of Canada

[IndianaGreen]

8. We might be forced to move to Vermont just prior to secession

Who wants to be part of a crumbling empire, particularly one deeply in debt, and surrounded by enemies, most of its own making.

Besides, no money from the Republic of Vermont will go to Israel or to any of the other oligarchs the US supports.

[loyalsister]

10. Send the U.S. to.....

I once saw a bumper sticker that said U.S. out of North America.

[Pavulon]

11. Worked last time around, ushered in modern warfare and killed

618,000 soldiers. 23,000 casualties in one day at Antietam.

I say no.

[THUNDER HANDS]

12. great, now even the maple syrup will be imported

[Tesha]

21. You could still buy NH and NY maple syrup.

Well, unless all of New England and some of the
Mid-Atlantic states come to their senses and we
all secede.

Tesha

[tabasco]

13. I'm curious. What would be the legal process?

I'm thinking a Constitutional Convention, which is doomed to failure unless Vermont launches a really good PR campaign.

I can't blame them for thinking about it. The dysfunctional federal government has become little more than an ATM for robber barons and war profiteers.

[ozone_man]

14. A possible down side

is that our population might swell to 10 times what is now as we accept political refugees from all over the country. It's a fun debate topic but I doubt that many take it seriously. I think most Vermonters would rather be part of taking back the country from those who stole it.

[DumpDavisHogg]

15. If anyone had any guts, this would have happened back in 1995

This should have happened 12 years ago, back when Newtzi was running his shit-caked little mouth.

And it shouldn't have just been Vermont, but also any other state that was less right-wing than Congress was (which means most states).

I've said it for 12 years, and it takes that damn long for people to grow a spine and listen.

I wish Vermonters all the best in their efforts to secede. I hope that when they do, they can annex my neighborhood in Kentucky so I don't have to put up with Bush's lies anymore.

[LVZ]

16. Step by step: Vermont --> New England --> New American Republic

"Whenever something is wrong, something is too big." --- Leopold Kohr

http://redneckistan.com :patriot: ----- 2050 ----- Pacifica / Redneckistan / New American Republic

Step by step ----------------- (1) Vermont --> (2) New England --> (3) New American Republic



One small step for true democracy ...







http://www.vpr.net/!gfx/menu_logo1.gif

Vermont Public Radio:

"one hour conversation about Vermont's peaceably seceding from the U.S." Listen to Podcast MP3

.:.

[LVZ]

17. Not just liberals ...

I note that socialist congressman Bernie Sanders and other invested politicians are against Vermont secession.
However, besides progressives, quite a few conservatives are for it:

paleo-conservative University of Vermont professor Frank Bryan

Secessionism in Vermont: Where I Stand

Wall Street financial analyst Catherine Austin Fitts

Confronting the Parasitic Corporate Underpinnings of U.S. Empire

.:.

[Eurobabe]

18. Interesting, I listened to the podcast and read the next two

articles you posted. I wonder what path Vermont will take? Dual citizenship sounds great, but then the US will stick it's fingers in your pie regardless, just like they do to every American who lives abroad. I think the only solution is secession.

[roamer65]

35. Google "Hartford Convention 1814"

and you will see just how close New England came to leaving the Union.

[LVZ]

19. More secession discussions ...

Does anyone have links to more "reasonable" discussions about Vermont secession?

Here is a local Las Vegas (not known for "reasonable") thread:

http://eforum.reviewjournal.com/lv/showthread.php?t=16349

.

[olddad56]

20. I'd like to see North California secede from the US and Southern Ca.

[BlueIris]

22. See ya, Green Mountain State.

I'll miss you, even if this is the ultimate coward's way out.

[gorbal]

24. It's not going to happen

I would rather see Bernie Sanders run for president, quite frankly:)

[sanskritwarrior]

25. LOL

I think we could spare a few troops to take care of such a silly problem.......

[ozone_man]

28. We can handle the Yorkers coming in on our left coast

with the Green Mountain Boys, and the cow militia has shored up defense along the New Hampshire border. The trouble zone will be defending the Southern border from being overrun by peace loving Massachusetts liberals seeking political asylum. :)

[Chemical Bill]

32. The 2nd Maine Militia will come to your aid.

Not that you'd want them. ;)

Bill

[ozone_man]

33. Heck, Maine is like a second Vermont or vice versa.

If there was one other state I would most enjoy living in, that would be it, the Pine tree state. Thanks for the offer too, but the cow militia feels very confident. Of course they demand that no cow tipping being allowed as outlined in the Geneva convention. :)

[flaminbats]

26. where's ole abe when we need him?

yikes!!!

hey, I think the 13th and 14th amendments makes this unconstitutional. but it would be great if money was free, laws didn't have to be enforced, and some states can be treated better than others.

what makes Vermont so special? South Carolina and Virginia couldn't secede, so why should Vermont? sorry..but wouldn't that be giving Vermont special treatment, or was Sherman's march through Georgia just what those damned losers deserved?

sorry but we're in this together. black or white, Democrat or Republican, rich or poor...if we're not good enough, then why bother? my great-great grandfather was elected as a unionist delegate in my state. but he fought for the lost cause, and paid the price for that until he died.

FDR understood that our country and party couldn't survive only on themes like capitalism and bigotry. these things can win votes, but they eventually lead to injustice and distrust. he also knew that we couldn't keep running against Lincoln and his morals if our party wanted to be taken seriously again! united we stand...divided we fall. Republicans usually just remember the first part, but our party also gets the second part. why even bother if Vermont or any other state can simply leave when they don't approve? why did we fight for civil rights or waste our time with the New Deal?

sorry, but we're all in this together. I'm an American Democrat..not a dixicrat or libertarian! :thumbsdown:

[LVZ]

29. Thomas Jefferson's view on secession

I note that you have a Thomas Jefferson quote in your sig. Here's something he wrote about secession:

"Whether we remain in one confederacy, or form into Atlantic and Mississippi confederacies, I believe not very important to the happiness of either part. Those of the Western confederacy will be as much our children & descendants as those of the Eastern." He wrote that if those of the Mississippi valley should "see their interest in separation, why should we take side with our Atlantic rather than our Mississippi descendants? It is the elder and the younger son differing. God bless them both, & keep them in Union, if it be for their good, but separate them, if it be better."

---

BTW, the 13th amendment abolished slavery.
It said nothing about the right to secession.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

The 13th Amendment to the Constitution declared that "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude...shall exist within the United States." Formally abolishing slavery in the United States, the 13th Amendment was passed by the Congress on January 31, 1865, and ratified by the states on December 6, 1865.

BTW, the 14th amendment addressed citizenship, due process, and equal protection.
It said nothing about the right to secession.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

The 14th Amendment to the Constitution was ratified on July 28, 1868, and granted citizenship to “all persons born or naturalized in the United States,” which included former slaves recently freed. In addition, it forbids states from denying any person "life, liberty or property, without due process of law" or to "deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of its laws.” By directly mentioning the role of the states, the 14th Amendment greatly expanded the protection of civil rights to all Americans and is cited in more litigation than any other amendment.

[flaminbats]

31. ole god!!! I knew this would be a can of worms..

[i]Article IV Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in
the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof,
are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein
they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which
shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life,
liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to
any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the
laws.[/i]

and don't forget Section 10 of Article I
[i]
" No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or
Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin
Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and
silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of
Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation
of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.

No State shall, without the Consent of the Congress, lay any
Imposts or Duties on Imports or Exports, except what may be
absolutely necessary for executing it's inspection Laws: and
the net Produce of all Duties and Imposts, laid by any State
on Imports or Exports, shall be for the Use of the Treasury of
the United States; and all such Laws shall be subject to the
Revision and Controul of the Congress.

No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, lay any Duty
of Tonnage, keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace,
enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State, or
with a foreign Power, or engage in War, unless actually
invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of
delay." [/i] 

sorry, but states don't have unlimited powers! wasn't that why
we had a Civil War?

[LVZ]

34. Right to secede was not specifically addressed

If an American "state" chooses to peaceably secede from the United States (not addressed by the above) it would no longer be an American "state". Therefore, it would also no longer be subject to American laws. That would be precisely why one would choose to secede in the first place.

[flaminbats]

40. then why did we have a Civil War?

if secession was legal to start with, where did the Confederacy go?

or was Abraham Lincoln just breaking the law by not acknowledging South Carolina's and other southern states' independence?

[The2ndWheel]

41. Production

Really the reason behind any war.

[flaminbats]

43. so Pearl Harbor had nothing to do with WWII..

and neither did Hitler I guess :eyes:

guess what?..you'll never convince me of that!

[The2ndWheel]

45. How did the planes that hit Pearl Harbor come to be?

How did Pearl Harbor come to be?

How did Hitler gain such power? Wasn't there also a sign above an entrance to a death camp talking about work(i.e. production)?

Why did the American, Japanese, and German empires all collide(along with the British, Russian, etc)? Production caused their centralized power to expand, and there was a war because of that expansion.

When production is the central goal of a society, large scale organized war is inevitable.

[flaminbats]

48. ok so never mind all those brave Jews who were murdered..

and I guess if the south decides to move back to segregation, well that would no longer be Vermont's problem?

[The2ndWheel]

51. No state stops another from doing anything unless

it's in the first state's interest to do so(helping them for the sake of helping them doesn't really come into play). That's why no state came to save the Jewish people(among many others) in Germany until after a third party attacked America. That's why the American Civil War wasn't really about ending slavery, that was just a happy byproduct.

That's what I'm saying though, those brave Jewish people were murdered for a reason. They were to be either put to work or exterminated for the sake of empire. Why build an empire? To increase the efficiency of large scale production.

"well that would no longer be Vermont's problem?"

It would eventually become Vermont's problem. The South would have to expand to increase production, and Vermont would be in the way(or the other way around, if variables are thrown into the mix). That's why war happens.

[flaminbats]

52. it is in every state's interest to stop Vermont from seceding

never heard of the Jewish underground? millions of Jews were exterminated, but that was also one of FDR's top motivations in starting the UN, to prevent another holocaust or World War from happening!

"No state stops another from doing anything unless"

sorry, but I don't care which state you live in, you're still an American. it is in every state's interest to stop another from breaking away, otherwise why even call the USA a country or a republic? why not call it a confederacy or a lost cause?

[The2ndWheel]

54. I meant more along the lines of nation-states

"sorry, but I don't care which state you live in, you're still an American."

No nation-state does anything to another nation-state if it's not in the former's national interest.

"it is in every state's interest to stop another from breaking away, otherwise why even call the USA a country or a republic? why not call it a confederacy or a lost cause?"

Which is what globalization is all about(plus production). Just like the US though, that will end up being far too much centralized power in too few hands, but that argument seems to be a lost cause.

"but that was also one of FDR's top motivations in starting the UN, to prevent another holocaust or World War from happening!"

That's the problem with diversity. Too much of it and war happens. If we kill diversity, standardize everything, one mass economic system, one mass political system, there won't be anything to fight over. The ironic part is that for that world to be possible, holocausts and wars must happen(in order to prevent them). A country must not only stay together, it must expand its influence and incorporate any surrounding.

I don't know if that general trend to history is good or bad. Do you allow for multiple ways of being in the world and risk instigation, or do you take that risk and end up with only one of being in the world?

[flaminbats]

56. "The Rise and Fall of the Confederate Government"..

read this book, you'll love it..even if you disagree with it!

how do you globalize a world, humanize a person, or liberalize a democratic-republic?

regarding too much centralized power in our country, Vermont and its citizens shall solve nothing by turning their backs on us! and this is why Vermont will never secede from the union, they actually care about our future.

Do you allow for multiple ways of being in the world and risk instigation, or do you take that risk and end up with only one of being in the world?

as far as I'm concerned the second choice in that question isn't even a choice or viable option! there are multiple ways of managing risk in the world, there will never be a single government or all powerful ruler on a planet of flawed human beings.

[LVZ]

44. Victory makes right ? Isn't that a Bush idea?

While getting rid of slavery was a just and legal cause, there is great disagreement about the legality of many of Lincoln's actions. We have a similar pattern of the "imperial presidency" with George W Bush. Lincoln's suspension of habeas corpus, a fundamental citizen right, was declared illegal, for instance.

http://www.laughtergenealogy.com/bin/history/civilwar.html

---

[flaminbats]

46. no..and neither does being a coward

if Vermont leaves the union, the voters and politicians in that state are turning their backs on those of us loyal Democrats now living in red states. but we'll never let any northern state get away with that! Sherman can just burn Atlanta down while marching to the sea, but when Ohio or Illinios wants to leave...oh well, we'll just look the other way I guess? :sarcasm:

[LVZ]

47. Name calling - the opposite of intellect

[flaminbats]

49. exactly..

I know you're not a coward, and neither are most New Englanders I know! that is why slavery was abolished and schools were integrated!

[northzax]

42. yes, but everyone in it

is a natural born or naturalized American citizen (except those that aren't, of course, and non-citizens get no voice here, legally) if there is one citizen in Vermont who does not want to secceed, then the state is overruling federal law on his or her behalf, which is a blatant violation of the constitution. that's your problem.

[onenote]

36. Must be a slow news day

A whopping 13 percent of those polled supported secession. Which means, in all likelihood, that when and if it ever comes to vote, it will lose by an incredibly lopsided margin. But hey, whatever floats folks boats.

[LVZ]

37. Public Opinion can and does make dramatic shifts

Public opinion can and does change dramatically, especially in more local situations.

Example:

In 1948, about 90% of American Adults opposed interracial marriage

In 1972, 72% opposed interracial marriage.

Today, the former 90% opposition is a distinct minority view in the USA.

Similarly, the acceptability of smoking, women in the workplace, gay and lesbian acceptance, etc. have had dramatic shifts in recent years. Support for the Iraq war is another obvious turnabout story.

Public opinion is seldom static and under the right circumstance it can shift very quickly.

---

[rayofreason]

39. The question of seccession...

...nullification, etc. was settled in the War of the Rebellion.

http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/moa/browse.monographs/waro.html

[LVZ]

50. American hypocrisy concerning secession

There is absolutely nothing in the Constitution or any other legal document which precludes any state or group of states from seceding from the United States. This was true in 1861. Today, countries are split and otherwise reconfigured almost daily and the United States has evolved as the world's moral leader in supporting rights of peoples to declare themselves independent. This is a comfortable position for U.S. politicians ... as long as secession occurs in Europe, Asia, South America, or Africa.

http://www.laughtergenealogy.com/bin/history/civilwar.html

http://www.sobran.com/columns/2003/030911.shtml



---

[LVZ]

53. Secession links, resources, eBook

http://www.secessionist.us/



free eBook --- http://writers.fultus.com/hawes/ebooks/Robert_Hawes_One_Nation_Indivisible.pdf

---